Thread Drift

((((Sky King)))). I'm so sorry about your mom. And hugs to anyone, most especially Mimi, who has or is facing end of life issues.

Like I said, the New Yorker piece has provided me much food for thought, not the least of which is what role, if any, I should play in helping a loved one dealing with a terminal illness one way or another with end-of-life issues. We are so conditioned to support the "fight" against cancer (as a for instance) and to remain positive and hopeful. It often seems terribly insensitive to even hint at anything but success or to discuss the possibility/inevitability of death in anything but the most abstract of ways. But as the article so eloquently points out, there are other discussions worth having, discussions that medical professionals aren't always initiating or facilitating. How can we lovingly and sensitively broach these subjects with someone? I feel inadequate when it comes to truly helping someone, beyond the usual "you're in my thoughts and prayers."

then I could really drift and go into the role of primary care giver for the 87 yr old Dad with dementia ... Perhaps another thread. Current challenge "is the anti-coagulation drug really necessary at this point"

I recently watched "How to die in Oregon", which is a documentary on HBO about the right to die. Heavy, and well done. It does show a couple of people die, so know that before deciding to watch it.

((((((Sky King))))))

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Originally Posted by indysteel

How can we lovingly and sensitively broach these subjects with someone?

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I feel really inadequate too, but I don't think I really can broach any sensitive subject, including mortality but also any number of other sensitive topics, with someone who's shown no inclination to discuss it. IMO the initiative has to come from the person whose mortality is in question. I do think that having these discussions, on TV and in the magazines, and semi-anonymously here, helps the broader goal of making everyone more open to talking about it.

I agree that I wouldn't initiate such a conversation. But if someone was to open that door with me, I'm not sure I'd know how best to proceed. I guess it's just something fir now that I'm glad to be cognizant of, although it may just be a matter of te before it becomes real, e.g., with my parents.

Thank you, ladies, for a thoughtful discussion about a difficult and loaded subject. I gain so much from your collective wisdom and experience.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

I do think that having these discussions, on TV and in the magazines, and semi-anonymously here, helps the broader goal of making everyone more open to talking about it.

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Yep. And I would just add given my last few years of experience, this can let us talk about it with parents, spouses, and others we love BEFORE it becomes necessary. It helps everyone start to think it through without being on the edge of the cliff and trying to decide in two seconds while the alarms are blaring at you.

Well, there's enough denial going on right now....about my father. And to a certain point he's in minor denial. But what can we do?

But if we were to hammer at my father now about this point, that he won't live for many years now with prostate cancer at an intermediate stage..that will pull him down pyschologically and most likely he'll slide faster. He has not yet elected to take chemotherapy which will mean several wks. daily of chemotherapy. It won't stop cancer, it will only delay it and most likely chemotherapy will permanently and more quickly weaken him... Meaning his immune system will be weakened alot. He's 83, not 33.

And surgery will not stop it.

There are some complex challenges that lie ahead.. We just hope he will be still alive to witness a grandson's wedding next yr.

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Originally Posted by indysteel

I may have linked to this before, but this article from the New Yorker gave me much food for thought when I read it.

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Thank you for that link. It was hard for me to read having gone through end of life decisions with several family members. But it also made me feel really good that I never let people skirt around the reality. I was the only one that my father spoke to straight up about dying. It was because I didn't avoid the topic. I had a cousin whose children did not want me around because my realistic "views of her cancer were not helping" and yet it was me that my cousin most wanted to discuss things with. I hope that someday we can all face our mortality in a way that let's us choose how hard we want to fight.

ETA: I have a patient right now who seems to be stuck in the denial of death and is being swept up in the forces of intervention. That article makes me want to call her up and ask her what she really wants. What does she really see happening? I know her family won't do it. They are way to invested in the idea that accepting terminal illness is failure somehow.

While I am pretty sure I wouldn't get mad if someone asked about this stuff if I had a terminal illness, I will be blunt and come out and say that I hate even thinking about death. It scares the sh!t out of me, even just normal die of old age death. I don't even want to get old, frankly.
I come from a family of hypochondriacs and I've dealt with this by ignoring death completely. Most people on both sides of my family die at around 90. There's been few "bad" diseases, save for my mom. My dad has had prostate cancer for 25 years. He's 87 and still quite active. On the other hand, I've dealt with death of others (including my first baby) stoically and been fine. In fact, people accuse me of being "cold" about the subject.
I've had some tell me I have this attitude because of my religion.... sigh. Like if I was waiting for my eternal reward, I would welcome death.
In the end, I doubt I would want heroic measures if I was in the state of the people in the article. I know my DH has strong feelings about no intervention.
I hated that article when I read it in the magazine and I didn't like re-reading it, either. But, I read it.

I knew my partner's mother well for over 16 years before she died.

At her wishes, she was cremated. So when my partner had to transport his mother's ashes to her desired resting spot in Ontario....he packed his panniers and included the urn of ashes. He rode up a 10% long hill and another hill to get to the airport to fly from Vancouver.

It was appropriate and poignant ....son-cyclist riding with the care and final weight of his mother's ashes on a long hill in a journey.... Ride with me in my journey, all the way to say good-bye.

I do have the photo of him climbing the hill on a sunny fall day on his way to the airport. I hope as cyclists here you are not freaked out.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

I knew my partner's mother well for over 16 years before she died.

At her wishes, she was cremated. So when my partner had to transport his mother's ashes to her desired resting spot in Ontario....he packed his panniers and included the urn of ashes. He rode up a 10% long hill and another hill to get to the airport to fly from Vancouver.

It was appropriate and poignant ....son-cyclist riding with the care and final weight of his mother's ashes on a long hill in a journey.... Ride with me in my journey, all the way to say good-bye.

I do have the photo of him climbing the hill on a sunny fall day on his way to the airport. I hope as cyclists here you are not freaked out.

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Freaked out? No, that is so beautiful and appropriate and loving. My 48 year old brother passed away very unexpectedly in March 2011. He was a professional snowboarder and adventurer and he was living and training and coaching in Tahoe at the time of his death. We had him cremated; in part, my sister and I were sure that was what he would have wanted and, second, in more practical terms it was the most reasonable and economical way to handle things. He was a free spirit and, while I know this was unconventional to my 80-something parents, we divided up his ashes and gave small amounts to many of his friends, who have taken him to all the mountains he loved and the beaches he surfed all along the Pacific Coast. Friends took him to special, meaningful places they shared and a few took him to places he wanted to go - including Alaska, New Zealand and the summit of Mt. Kilimanjaro (on his 49th birthday). I had a friend take some to the first place he loved in the mountains - Philmont Scout Camp in New Mexico. He's at Mt. Hood, in the terrain park they named for him. He's at Vail, in an out of bounds area we ski by and 'talk' to him. I 'took' him to the snowboard nationals (two weeks after he died) and again this year, leaving some ashes at the finish line of his favorite event and under the podium. I'll take him back next year, as his friends will compete in his favorite event to mark the last year he would have been eligible to race in that age class and he'll be at the start line, finish line and podium. He even rode around Tahoe with my sister and I two weeks ago (in our seatbags) and, knowing he never met a finish line he didn't like, we left him at the finish and in the lake. I still have ashes that will go on 'adventures' with us for a long time. It may seem weird, but honestly, it's been pretty cathartic to think of him out there in the places he loved. I hope someone will do that for me one day. I cannot imagine a conventional funeral any longer.

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Originally Posted by Amira

He even rode around Tahoe with my sister and I two weeks ago (in our seatbags) and, knowing he never met a finish line he didn't like, we left him at the finish and in the lake. I still have ashes that will go on 'adventures' with us for a long time. It may seem weird, but honestly, it's been pretty cathartic to think of him out there in the places he loved. I hope someone will do that for me one day. I cannot imagine a conventional funeral any longer.

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I love knowing that you guys did that, after the fact. What a beautiful day it was to honor your brother's life like that.

I also plan to be cremated. Hopefully my loved-ones who are here after I pass will do something cool and meaningful like you guys have done for your brother.

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Originally Posted by zoom-zoom

I love knowing that you guys did that, after the fact. What a beautiful day it was to honor your brother's life like that.

I also plan to be cremated. Hopefully my loved-ones who are here after I pass will do something cool and meaningful like you guys have done for your brother.

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I used to joke that they could scatter my ashes in the planters overlooking Neiman's shoe department, but seriously, I want to be scattered around like my brother (and in fact, in some of the same places...Tahoe and Vail among them). I figure he can come do the JDRF rides with me for years to come (I still have probably half the original container of ashes left). And, given that he had 413,660 miles on his 'super truck' when he died, I suspect he'll be cool with going to lots of different JDRF ride locations. The man did like to go places.

Talk about a surreal moment .... getting a Priority Mail box delivered to your office with ashes in it. I was taken aback at the heft of the box. My brother was so lean - imagine Lance, only about 3 inches shorter. But that box was heavy. I just kept looking at that box (through giant tears) and realizing that he HAD his priorities in the right place - I've never met anyone who lived life like my brother did. He loved what he did with a passion and he was a doer and adventurer. He left an unbelievable legacy of friends and memories and stories. He never made diddly squat monetarily, but he was the richest person I know in more important ways.

I so relate to the past few pages of posts of dealing with elderly relatives and diminished abilities, because that is my reality at the moment as well - my parents, my in-laws, my remaining aunts and uncles....and struggling through the right decisions for care, maintaining independence as long as possible and quality end of life decisions. You mourn the small losses of independence and faculties before the end, and, in the end, I expect that the loss of a parent is profound and deep, but it is a different loss entirely than that of a sibling. In our own way, we're found a way to cope and move forward (you never really get over it, though, it's something in your mind daily) and try to build something positive.

Hey, zoom-zoom, if I'm around and pedaling still, happy to have you 'ride along' on my bike one day. I hope people will do that for me, too. Think of all the great destination rides to come.

I love this!

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Originally Posted by Amira

I used to joke that they could scatter my ashes in the planters overlooking Neiman's shoe department, but seriously, I want to be scattered around like my brother (and in fact, in some of the same places...Tahoe and Vail among them). I figure he can come do the JDRF rides with me for years to come (I still have probably half the original container of ashes left). And, given that he had 413,660 miles on his 'super truck' when he died, I suspect he'll be cool with going to lots of different JDRF ride locations. The man did like to go places.

Talk about a surreal moment .... getting a Priority Mail box delivered to your office with ashes in it. I was taken aback at the heft of the box. My brother so lean - imagine Lance, only about 3 inches shorter. But that box was heavy. I just kept looking at that box (through giant tears) and realizing that he HAD his priorities in the right place - I've never met anyone who lived life like my brother did. He loved what he did with a passion and he was a doer and adventurer. He left an unbelievable legacy of friends and memories and stories. He never made diddly squat monetarily, but he was the richest person I know in more important ways.

I so relate to the past few pages of posts of dealing with elderly relatives and diminished abilities, because that is my reality at the moment as well - my parents, my in-laws, my remaining aunts and uncles....and struggling through the right decisions for care, maintaining independence as long as possible and quality end of life decisions. You mourn the small losses of independence and faculties before the end, and, in the end, I expect that the loss of a parent is profound and deep, but it is a different loss entirely than that of a sibling. In our own way, we're found a way to cope and move forward (you never really get over it, though, it's something in your mind daily) and try to build something positive.

Hey, zoom-zoom, if I'm around and pedaling still, happy to have you 'ride along' on my bike one day. I hope people will do that for me, too. Think of all the great destination rides to come.

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Originally Posted by Amira

Hey, zoom-zoom, if I'm around and pedaling still, happy to have you 'ride along' on my bike one day. I hope people will do that for me, too. Think of all the great destination rides to come.

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You know, I think I'm going to tell my DH that if he outlives me that I want a portion of my ashes going to anyone who will do something cool with them. I'd love to have a bit of me left in all sorts of places--places I already love and maybe places I've never been, but would have loved. :)