Thoughts on this article?
http://glittergravel.com/how-to-get-...-into-cycling/
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Thoughts on this article?
http://glittergravel.com/how-to-get-...-into-cycling/
It didn't really strike a chord with me. Obviously I would support ways to get women into biking, but the article just struck me as women need extra help BECAUSE we are women. I needed extra help because I was a BEGINNER!
I guess I was lucky because as a beginner, I found a great shop on my second try. The first shop was condescending, but I didn't think it was because I was a woman...more because I was not knowledgeable about bikes and they just have overall crappy cust svc. Second shop was great. I was also able to find some great beginner groups to join, that just so happened to be all women's. I would have gone to a co-ed beginner's group, but couldn't find a single one. How do beginner guys learn??
As for telling bike shops to stock more small bikes for women...umm, not all women are small :) I can't exactly walk into any shop and find bikes in my size to ride. (I prefer WSD which are not usually stocked in my size) Shops aren't going to stock a ton on either side of the norm, so this just goes with the territory of not being an average size (whether you are short or tall).
And while I get that lots of women don't want to wear pink or purple clothes all the time, I would just be happy if they could make cycling clothing for women that matches how street clothing is sized.
Just read the facebook posts too....I see her frustration a bit more.
I guess I've also been lucky, had an awesome bike shop where I used to live. Those guys are great and treat everyone the same when you walk into their shop. The new shop that opened here is also great. I've had mixed experiences with shops in Raleigh, NC. There's a Trek dealer downtown that is great and a Specialized dealer near one of the small universities that is also good and Preformance is good. Then there's another Trek store that is horrible. The stores in Fayetteville are also both pretty lousy. One of my huge frustrations that was not even mentioned in her article is that not all women even want women's clothing or bikes. With my build men's clothing fits me so much better and men's bikes (if I can find them small enough) are also a much better fit. I prefer men's bikes and I can promise that they will never stock the size I need in men's version of the bike.
I didn't get "women need extra help" out of it at all, at least, for the non-industry side of it (bike shops included). I got "stop being obnoxious." I think the bit where we do need extra help is finding appropriately-sized bikes. Last year we had only a few women's road bikes (and one mountain bike) at work, and small ones only in the lowest-end. We got a glut of WSD road bikes early this year, and we've sold most of them already! We have a hard time keeping them around. But I do understand where you're coming from. I can handle WSD or unisex bikes--it's just a matter of getting the top tube length right. (I'm looking a unisex Fuji or a WSD Cannondale and Specialized for my next road bike.) I'm too tall for what many shops stock in WSD bikes, especially Specialized, but too short for shops to stock unisex bikes in my size.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny4
There's no consistency in street clothes sizing, so I'm not sure that matching cycling clothes sizing to street clothes sizing is going to help anything!
My boss has been really good about hiring women, and I'm sure many customers, especially women just getting into riding (from my experience) appreciate that. They still tend to gravitate to the men for road bikes, and then there are men (and women) of A Certain Age who pretty much assume that we're stupid because we're young, female and working in retail. (Different rant entirely)
I DO think that more shops should stock smaller bikes - at least one for each bike style. It is really hard to have to commit to something before you have a chance to try it on for size. That has nothing to do with being a woman and everything to do with being short. I am sure that some men would appreciate that as well... It is a hard balance. It is understandable why they don't want to stock the smaller sizes that have a smaller market. The ideal would be if they could work something out with their sources so they could perhaps return the smaller sizes if they are ordered and it turns out the bike doesn't fit. Not all WSD sizes even come small enough (as I learned with my old Trek FX)
As far as clothing size is concerned, there isn't consistency with street clothes sizing so there isn't a surprise that this is an issue here. Of course bike clothes, by their nature, are meant to fit differently which doesn't help.
I would say in the past few years, over 75% of the LBS staff have been fine in terms of addressing my questions and whenever I need a bike repair done. To me, it helps that I do talk knowledgeably, confidently by referring to bike parts, I am wearing (used) cycling shoes and some of my clothing does indicate I'm a cyclist without looking overly too kitted-out.
Some of the stores have female staff and those stores do make a difference overall in general treatment.
I am 5'1", so smaller bike size is a constant problem to me. There is a lot less choice on this smaller end.
I, personally, understand everything the author said. Maybe I would state it a bit differently, but I have experienced every one of the issues she spoke to. I don't like any of the shops around here and my DH is my mechanic; enough said. I pretty much stay out of bike shops.
last I heard, average height for a woman was 64". That's a 1/2 inch taller than me. Now, I ride a custom 50cm bike because most bike manufacturers do not go down that far and i got tired of trying to make bikes work. So here i am within an inch of average height, and they don't stock bikes my size??
That means a HUGE proportion of women that want to ride can't easily find a bike!!
http://www.disabled-world.com/artman...ht-chart.shtml Height charts for all over the world here.
haha, just read the article. "hang out in bike shops" LOL sure, we've all got plenty of time to do that.
I haven't had time to fully digest the article, but it pains me that she used the word "girl" as much as she did. It's a pet peeve of mine, but I find it an especially bad word choice given the subject matter of the article.
even as she castigates men for using the same terminology...!Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
I didn't think of it there, desensitized I guess, but it tends to bug me otherwise. "Woman" is a perfectly good word for describing an adult female, and there's no need to pretty us up by calling us "ladies" or cutesify us by calling us "girls". (I don't mean in a casual or informal setting, for friends I'd use ladies, girls, gals, whatever as the mood takes me.) But when speaking of women in a general sense where you would conversely speak of "men", just say women for heavens sake!Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
I'm only a lady sometimes, and I haven't been a girl for 20 years...
I didn't think about this until your post. I am 63 inches tall and can never find a bike in stock that fits. If the average is only 64 then that tells me they don't even consider the average height for women.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
To clarify my comment about cycling clothing matching street clothing sizes...sorry, I didn't state it very well...I wear an XL, sometimes L, in most Misses tops. There is no way i can get a women's XL cycling jersey on. Even XXL's are too tight. I've tried a few plus sized on and the fit is all wrong. I know most cycling clothing is meant to be fitted for a reason, but the XL's / XXL's are just a joke on me. They are also way too short (like barely touching the top of my shorts in front...not attractive :) )
I usually just stick with regular workout/moisture wicking tops. Fortunately, i have been able to find awesome shorts on TE!
Penny you should CALL team estrogen. I bet they can help you, and it's a toll free number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny4
exactly!!! and when I think of Italian bikes, it's as if it doesn't occur to them that women can ride because ITALIAN women are an inch shorter than American ones.... :confused::confused::confused::confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrin
This chart should be shown to large bike retailers in big cities across North America....especially when local population has a huge base of people whose family origins are from outside of Europe. However, I should add that differences in diet have a strong influence on height for those born and raised in North America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
i can't figure out how come bike manufacturers DON'T pay attention.... they want more women? build more bikes for us.
shooting star, that may be true, but what I say still goes.
I was at bike expo the other day and there was a booth where this young company was selling bike pants and shorts. I was wearing my amazing wool knickers and asked, did they have wool? (NO) and did they have anything for women (NO!)
too bad, i liked their stuff.
I'm 59" tall. Average is just that, an average. Retail need to cover edges of the spectrum. Shops can't have every size of bike and clothes. They should be able to get it easily and understand the need that they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrin
Of interest...blog post on the Women's National Bicycling Forum held last week in Washington, DC
http://www.arlingtontransportationpa...cycling-forum/
I liked this point (from the article Tulip sent us to)
In NYC, the 9th Avenue protected bike line has seen a 64% increase in cycling since it was installed and a 50% decrease in crashes.
"Unfortunately it seems like all the bike execs up top got together and had a conference at which it was decided that everything made for women should have pink or purple accents, and that women love swirls and flowers and butterflies on all of their clothing and accessories..."
Well, I'd be willing to put up with swirls and butterflies if they were on jerseys that actually fit me. Men's cycling clothing usually goes up to size huge (5XL in some manufacturers) while women's only goes up to a small XL at best. Some of these same manufacturers have a really tiny offering of "plus" size female clothing, which implies that, while being a really large tall man is perfectly normal, a large tall woman is just a freak. And even these "plus" size clothes rarely fit. The last pair of "Athena" shorts that I bought only had an 8" inseam, which made me feel really self-conscious.
Agreed! Shorts aren't as difficult for me to find, but tops are a nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuliajuk
I hear you! I've no problems finely shots-though that could change. If the chest is large enough then the rest of it is too large. IF the chest is large enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny4
Two things, I hate being referred to as a "girl" especially by other women. And I hate the "pink it & shrink it" mindset. I personally don't like the color pink.
Our local rides are usually one third to to one half female. Unfortunately, many of the women feel compelled to get fast enough to keep up with the men. This just perpetuates the problem & ends up making average female cyclists feel inferior.
ummm, sorry about this - I had posted from my phone and didn't realize it had "assisted" my spelling. I was trying to say that I've no problems finding shorts that fit properly (so far), jerseys are different...Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrin
i don't see why women excelling should perpetuate the problem. Although i will never be the one in the front, I find it inspirational when I see a woman that CAN out ride the guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by jusdooit
this cracked me up..Quote:
Originally Posted by Catrin
Catrin has no problem doing fine shots? Hmmm....:p
I guess i am lucky because I actually like pink. But I get that other women would like to see more variety.
As well it should - it had me cracking up as well once I actually READ it and saw what was entered :) Not sure what a finely shot is, but apparently I've no problem doing it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
I like certain shades of pink but NOT pastels (ick - no pastels for me). What tends to irritate me is how often that is my only color choice. THAT is what I've a problem with. I also like purple - just not necessarily mixed with pink. I remember the last time I needed to buy weight gloves for the gym. It took multiple stores to find gloves small enough to fit AND wasn't pastel pink!Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny4
This may be more a stocking issue or maybe you didn't get good service optimizing the stock setups than a real lack of market issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
64" = 5'3" So you are 5'2.5" I'd have to guess that 5'3" is a fair bit below average height for American women under the age of 60.
Even so, I just walked around our shop I'd say you have 22 choices here of various styles from Hybrids, Road and full suspension mt.
I'm 5'0" with short legs so I do have a hard time finding bikes to test and typically WSD bikes just don't fit me right to start with. No one ever stocks the small men's bikes ever, those are what seem to typically work best for me. Then there's the issue of you're a woman you have to have women's bikes and women's clothing. UGH! Stop telling me that and let me figure out what fits and works best for me. Also I happen to be one who HATES (truly HATES) the color pink and hates having anything "girly" on anything I own. I like dark purples ok (think royal purple type color) but have no use for lighter purples or lavender. UGH! Personally I'm fine a black, gray or blue bike. As far as tops go, why is that if I find something that will fit my shoulders it's way too big everywhere else (of course I have this issue with women's clothing in general). Why do bike stores insist that I need women's jerseys, when they DON'T fit. If I walk into a store wearing men's jeans and men's T-shirts why exactly do they think I even want to look at women's jerseys or clothing in the first place? Heck the first thing we did when we bought our current house was to repaint the kitchen before we moved in. It was pink, it's is now sand color.
I generally stay away from these conversations...but my button has been pushed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koronin
I hate to see someone avoid the best bike for them simply because they are angry that the bike industry dares create some difference between bikes that are MARKETED for women. It's MARKETING.
All I know is the bike shop and bike riding used to be a very lonely place for women. Now, there are TONS of women riding. I fail to see the huge problem.
Maybe the industry needs to change the name of the bikes designed for 5'6" and under people.
Many of today's women's bikes are coming stock with REALLY short stems. This is a marketing move so they can show off a very short cockpit. It has NOTHING to do with the way a bike SHOULD be set up.
My customers frequently ask for a larger size to get a more appropriate cockpit length. Often the better fit solution is to take the silly 60mm stem off and replace it with an 80 or 90.
What we try to do is ride both sizes then take the cockpit length off the larger bike and "build it into" the smaller bike.
I understand why your buttons are getting pushed, but I also sense that you fully understand how WSD bikes are getting marketed and know how to look past the marketing hype to help your female customers get the best fit. That's awesome and I truly applaud you for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
But not every bike shop owner/LBS saleperson gets this. Instead, they buy all the marketing hook, line and sinker. They're either not adequately trained or lack the incentive to help their customers look past the marketing so that they get the right bike. Instead, they just repeat whatever the bike rep told them as selling points for the bike. And the customer, in turn, who walks into the store trusting that they're going to get helpful advice from the owner/salesperson, often doesn't know enough to challenge what they're hearing. I've heard some variation of that theme too many times--either here on TE or in person at my own local shops.
I agree with you that a lot more women are riding and happily riding, so there has been progress and I'm not implying that the whole industry sucks, but there is room for improvement. I'm okay with the WSD label, so long as shops appreciate that it's just a starting place in a dialogue with a female rider. In other words, we need more shop owners like you!
I've noticed that certain bike manufacturers have been doing that. Super-short stem so it looks shorter, but with really long top tubes that I suspect are no different from the men's frames.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
Certain bike shops have told me that the differences between unisex and "women's" road bikes tend to be more marked in the smaller sizes. Don't know how true that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jusdooit
Exactly, Mimi! I am one of those women, who sort of ended up riding "with the boys" by accident. I LOVE to ride my bike, and I ride A LOT. I am also competitive, and in the region I live, need to train reasonably hard to maintain my fitness through a very long race season. I am often out on my DH's advertised "Left for dead" rides, trying to keep up with the guys - it's GREAT training for me. The other reason I go? I have LOTS of female riding friends who aren't at the same level for lots of reasons - I love to ride with them too! I have fun riding regardless of pace or ability, and work VERY hard to mentor other female riders, and to share the passion that I have for the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biciclista
My frustration comes in when those same women don't want to ride with me because they are "too slow", "not fit enough", etc. Despite my welcoming stance, and the fact that I do actually play nicely with others, I am often left to just ride with the boys instead. Frustrating on many levels.
I JUST WANT TO RIDE MY BIKE, and I don't care! Unfortunately, not everyone gets this.
This makes me nuts. I am 5'10" and get steered towards WSD in shops. I don't fit WSD anything. Unfortunately many shop employees look at a female customer and instinctively point her in that direction. It's great that there are so many options available for women in the sport, but education around what FITS, vs. what the marketing hype is about would go a long way.Quote:
Originally Posted by indysteel
SheFly
* Normally if a woman comes in and wants a road bike, I start with the WSD frames, but I will certainly try them on unisex frames if it looks like the WSD doesn't fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SheFly
I think it works the other way around too, especially with women just getting into it. I hear "I need a women's road bike" from someone who looks like she'd have better luck with the unisex frames quite a bit. I'll show them the women's stuff, of course, and then try to persuade them that they look cramped and perhaps suggest that they try a unisex frame. It doesn't always work. :rolleyes:
I don't know if it's the paint scheme ("But I want the fun colors!") or an ingrained preference for the "appropriately-gendered" item (and marketing playing on that), or what.
You do realize that maybe the best bike is NOT a WSD. I bought a Felt F-5 (They do NOT make the F series is WSD to begin with). This bike fits me perfectly. I've tested both the Lexa and the Dolce and they do NOT work. They are way to cramped of a feeling and NOT comfortable. Do NOT assume that someone must have a WSD because they are a women. Geometry is what should determine what someone needs. Granted most unisex/men's bikes do NOT come in a small enough size for me to even look at. WSD bikes assume that women have long legs, short torso/arm reach and narrow shoulders. I am exactly the opposite in all three, I have short legs, longer torso/arm reach AND have broader shoulders. I don't have an issue with the WSD lable, just don't expect all women to be able to ride one. Also don't expect all women to even want the colors that are in the WSD bikes. On the other hand my crusier and mountain bike are WSD frames and they fit fine, but for road bikes the WSD frames do NOT work at all. Just like women's shirts typically do not work at all. My shoulders are too broad. If I can find a shirt to fit my shoulders, it WAY too big everywhere else, so I go for men's clothing as they actually fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seajay
Also need to add that not everyone can even ride all different brands of bikes. My husband made a big mistaken when he bought his first road bike. It never fit him correctly no matter what was done to it. We even dragged it halfway across the state to our old LBS (whom we trust) and they tried everything different stems, seats, seatposts, and some of things, and could not get him comfortable on that bike no matter what we did. He ended up selling it and got a Felt F-5 (larger size than mine) and it fits him great. Only a few minor fitting tweaks and he's very comfortable on it.