By George, I think she's (almost) got it! Compact Vs. Triple

Ok, I played with the gearing charts last night till after 2 :D - read the Gearing 101 site as well which was really helpful - and combed through the forums.

So, now, I'd like to hear from those of you that have triples and those that have compacts... What I don't yet understand are the actual downsides to a triple. Are there any? (Besides any weight gains - I'm no weight-weenie since I've been riding a mtb on road for years and any future 'racing' I do will be for enjoyment/ the experience, not to get 'best time'.) For those of you that are casual riders with compacts - what are your impressions?

Thanks for your help!

I admire you for your studiousness!

My Luna came with a regular double, and I needed more easy gears than I could get with just changing out the cassette. I originally planned on getting a triple, but that proved problematic with all the technicalities involved--I don't know enough about it to give you the details, but it had something to do with the derailleur and shifters. Perhaps someone else can explain it.

So I went with a compact double and it works great. I rode the bike up Skyline Drive in the Blue Ridge--50 miles each way (spent the night at a lodge). Coming back down was almost as much climbing as going up.

Recently, I've been riding my Bike Friday, which has a triple. Next week begins Bike Virginia, which will be in the mountains of Virginia and Tennessee. I don't expect any problems with the gearing--just my legs and lungs.

So, the solution, as I see it, is to get two bikes. At least!

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Originally Posted by tulip

I admire you for your studiousness!

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LOL! I'm just a computer junkie. :D

And I really do want to understand why the bias from the mfgrs and bike stores to push compacts - rather than asking "How do you use your mtb triple now? What gears are your body's sweet spots?" And "Well, it sounds like you're using your full range but need a little more on the upper end. So I'd suggest _____."

no downside - perhpas a double shifts more precisely in my subjective and slanted view. go for the triple if it's what you need.

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Originally Posted by alpinerabbit

no downside - perhpas a double shifts more precisely in my subjective and slanted view. go for the triple if it's what you need.

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I would agree with this. The double is a smooth shifter (I have Ultegra).

I built up my custom bike with a triple. I'm a recreational rider (100-150 miles/week)--a plodder, not a racer.

I'm no longer considered young by most and while I may still get stronger, I may not. Having the triple means that when I'm tired and the wind is strong, I have a gear I can sit back, enjoy the breeze and spin. Having a triple means that when I see that long hill and my energy levels just aren't where they should be, I can sit up, drop into a low gear and climb.

I know I could get the same low gear with a properly designed compact, but, you know, I like having another gear close to the whatever is the current so that on long flat or false flat stretches I can find the perfect happy gear. Call me old fashioned or just call me not-quite-in-shape, but I like my triple.

Oh, and I put on a 30-39-50 with a 13-26 in the rear. And, for me, I've yet to run out of gears, but a lot of women on this board are a lot stronger and would probably never consider such bizarre gearing. I love it. Do what your body and legs need and enjoy your ride.

I have a triple on my entry-level bike (Trek 1000).

I think there's a lot of ego involved in debate. And marketing. I like my triple, even though I rarely use the small ring anymore. I like being prepared for anything, and the triple makes me feel prepared.

I'll ride it that way until I get another bike, and then I'll probably take what's on the bike that I like best. I have an '83 Centurion on the stand right now getting an overhaul, and it only has 2 rings in the front. Since it's a touring bike, it probably has a different gearing set up than my Trek. (I don't pay much attention to such things.) I'll just ride it when it's done. I'll ride it for different reasons, of course, but I'll ride it.

It matters to some, and to some it doesn't. There's no one right answer. If you're unhappy for reasons other than someone telling you to be, change it!

Karen

Oh, and if you decide to go triple, consder Campy. With Campy, the front derailleur has "infinite" trim. That is, you have lots of little detents where the cage will stop. For me, this gives a better feel on the front derailleur than the Shimano where you only get 2 positions (one, if your mechanic isn't very good) Others, of course, will think differently, but it is worth checking out if you lean triple--Shimano and Campy work differently in the front.

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Originally Posted by tulip

I would agree with this. The double is a smooth shifter (I have Ultegra).

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I keep reading the same... "smooth shifting"... by that do you mean "smoother"? There are moments where on my mtb shifting can be problematic - but that's on a hill when I didn't plan for what was coming. :rolleyes:

Thorn, thanks for the support. I'm definitely leaning toward the triple route for my first road bike - just want to make sure that I know what I'm getting into since the bike shop advice is the compact.

I have 2 bikes with triples (1 road, one mtb) 1 bike with a compact (road) and one with a regular double (road).

All have their good points.

I agree with Tulip: the question isn't "compact or triple?", the question is "how many of each?"

More bikes, more better! :D

(all that being said, if I was told I could only have one gearing set up I'd choose triples. And shifting is sweet and smooth when you use friction! Yummy!)

The only downside I can think of is it seems to be easier to drop the chain on a triple. On my first bike with low-end Shimano Sora I experienced this with some regularity. My current bike is a triple with Shimano 105/Ultegra and I have only dropped the chain one time that I can remember in 4,500 miles. Keeping the bike tuned and the chain lubed has kept the triple working just fine for me.

Of course I didn't have the budget to get my bike any other way, the next choice was full Ultegra with only a compact double and a $400 price tag increase.

Thanks for all the great support!

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And shifting is sweet and smooth when you use friction! Yummy!

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Hmmmm, dare I ask?! :p

Aggie_Ama, that's another thing that I've heard - problems with the gear shifting, rubbing, chain falling off with triples - but those all sound more like its time for a tuneup ... ??

I'm buying mid-range'ish - a Scott Contessa CR1 that comes out of the box with a Shimano Ultegra Compact, the LBS is spec'ing it with a 12/27 cassette.

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Originally Posted by Ciao

Hmmmm, dare I ask?! :p

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Shimano barcons, silly! (hey, get yer mind outta the gutter!) :eek:;)

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Originally Posted by Ciao

Aggie_Ama, that's another thing that I've heard - problems with the gear shifting, rubbing, chain falling off with triples - but those all sound more like its time for a tuneup ... ??

I'm buying mid-range'ish - a Scott Contessa CR1 that comes out of the box with a Shimano Ultegra Compact, the LBS is spec'ing it with a 12/27 cassette.

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Oh that is a nice looking bike. My husband drops the chain on his Dura Ace double as often as a do. For me it is all about keeping my drive train clean and tuned up.

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Originally Posted by Ciao

Aggie_Ama, that's another thing that I've heard - problems with the gear shifting, rubbing, chain falling off with triples - but those all sound more like its time for a tuneup ... ??

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Not necessarily. Triples also have a tendency of ghost shifting. :rolleyes: I have a compact double on my road bike and a triple on my mountain bike. I am glad to have the triple for off road adventures and the compact is nice for climbing. It seems like I have fewer incidents of chain suck on the compact as well.

Hi Ciao - I think you really should try both a triple and a compact. Is there a shop near you? The compact wouldn't work for me as I miss the high gears. On my triple I rarely use the small ring, but when I hit a big hill I gladly use it. Both my husband and I decided on triples for that reason. Here in the nw, we have hills. My husband can spin a crazy cadence in his smallest gear when climbing and I have yet to see someone pass him going up hill. As for smooth shifting and dropping chains, I have never had a problem. I have ultegra and it shifts like butter even after having well over 2,500 miles on this particular bike and I have never dropped the chain. But...as you have read here, everyone is different in what they prefer and so I wouldn't think of making this kind of decision without testing both.

"chain suck"?

Oh, I wish I could just go test ride! :(


edit: Thanks Ttaylor, but that is near impossible. The shops here don't let you test ride... and rentals are usually kaka.

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Originally Posted by sundial

Not necessarily. Triples also have a tendency of ghost shifting. :rolleyes:

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Missed this the first time around... I've never experienced "ghost shifting' with my setup.

But, thanks to all of you, I'm realizing that a triple on a road bike isn't that unusual and guess that the mechanics are pretty much the same as on a mtb. Yes?

From Sheldon Brown:

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Chain suck

Chain suck occurs primarily when downshifting under load from the middle to the smallest chainring. The bottom run of the chain may not immediately disengage from the middle ring, and can get carried upward until it wedges betwixt the chainwheels and the right chainstay.
This jams the crankset. Since you probably wouldn't have been shifting to the granny if you weren't already climbing, the sudden lock-up of the drive train deprives you of what little momentum you had, and you are very likely to stall and fall.

Chain suck is commonly caused by bent chainring teeth, dirty chains, or, occasionally, burrs on the teeth of new chainwheels.

Jonathan Levy has an extensive Web site about Chain Suck

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Originally Posted by Ciao

I'm realizing that a triple on a road bike isn't that unusual and guess that the mechanics are pretty much the same as on a mtb. Yes?

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Yes. :)

Thank you for both posts. :)
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Ok, onward to tackle my contact at the bike shop - armed with new knowledge and confidence - and backed by an experienced team! :D Thank you all!

Ghost shifting? what's that?

I have an old clunker bike with a double, and a triple on my custom bike. My triple is a top of the line Campy gear set.

The disadvantage to the triple is there are SO MANY gears! do we really need that many gears?? honestly? So, as a result, the learning curve is longer, i've had the bike a year and I'm still figuring out the optimal gears. The one thing I'm real good at is my granny gear. if i had to settle for something smaller there, I'd be miserable. My bike shifts so wonderfully, I don't see that there is a problem with the three chain rings, it shifts a lot better than my other bike... but i might be comparing apples and oranges here.

But then i get on my clunky bike (it might be a 10 speed, come to think of it) and it grinds and smacks and I still don't use all those gears either.
I hope this information is helpful to someone. I'd buy another triple in a flash. but I'm fervently hoping that someone figures out a better way to do it. (and no, I don't think a fixie is the answer!)

Yep, I have "sweet spots" in my triple too - but they're more to do with my body's strengths/weaknesses on different terrains and preferred cadence. I'm typically on the upper end .. hop to a mid gear when transitioning .. and hop to the bottom 2-3 grannies when climbing. So, I'm always using the outer edges of my gears. Strangely all with a similar cadence... It's as if my body prefers 1 level of output - and the gears control it with the changing terrain. :rolleyes:

I have triples on my hybrid and mtn bikes, and Shimano's compact on my road bike. The compact replaced the stock double the bike came with. Love, love, love the compact. The triples? I never use all those gears (as someone said, do we really need that many?) and there is frequent chain suck and I tend to stay in the biggest and middle gears and rarely have use for the small one.

I got the compact after doing a horrid road climb on my double. I am not getting any younger and this ride made me hate the double. After much research and talking with others, I decided to go with the compact rather than a triple for typical reasons - less weight, less parts and gears to have mechanical trouble with and it gives you that 1-3 extra gears not found on the double. I have found that these few extra gears are all I need and I am glad I did not put a triple on.

Thanks, NorseGoddess, for the counter viewpoint. Can I ask - were you strong on hills to begin with? Doesn't sound like you need the grannies when climbing. (Wish I was that strong... but know it will come with time.)

Okay, since we've all given you our chainring secrets, can we come and visit you in Tuscany? All of us?

no kidding!

so what's chain suck and ghost shifting?

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Originally Posted by Ciao

Thanks Ttaylor, but that is near impossible. The shops here don't let you test ride... and rentals are usually kaka.

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They don't let you take a bike for a test ride??????? :eek::eek:
That's the most crazy thing I have ever heard.
How on earth are you supposed to know if a bike is right for you if you can't ride it first??????

Hmmm.... it's got to do with the cost of the bikes and the risk a newb is taking with a racing bike and falling, crashing... my LBS only has test MTBs. Some other shop have roadies and hybrids as well.

In my opinion you won't find out how a bike handles on one short test ride anyway.

It's tricky....
You have a budget, you pick the right size, you get what you pay for... and if you don't know what you're doing and the shop is bad, you buy another bike soon but from another shop.

You are all welcome to head over! :D We love visitors! Plus it gets us off the computers and acting like tourists too. We typically have 1-3 groups rolling through per month - family, friends, friends of friends, business colleagues of, old neighbors... lol. So, I've compiled a nice 'visitors kit' complete with map, hotel & B&B recommendations (and discounted rates), what to see and the tricks to bypass those long lines, the secrets that locals know... etc. PM me if you'd like me to email you the 'kit'.

alpinerabbit - you're right. And I appreciate your no-nonsense approach. There's one shop that carries the Scott - so tomorrow I'm going to go over and sit on it :p just to see if the measurements on paper make sense in person...(and buy a few goodies I'm sure). Then I'll hold my breath, order the darn thing, and take it for it's first few spin on test runs of the Dolomites before that Maratona. :D

Hmmm... and maybe we just create a spring TE 2009 tour...

Firenze -to- San Gimignano -to- Siena -to Montepulciano - etc...

Ciao, I am an avid rider, but mostly a weekend warrior and I would not consider myself particularly gifted on hills. I used to hate hills but have only recently started getting better at them since I am currently training for a rolling terrain, with several steep hills, 4 day/300 mile ride next month. I am mid-40's, so no spring chicken, medium boned and average build. I don't have one of those scrawny, feather-weight, fly-up-the-mountain bodies. I usually grind out hills at my own humble pace.

?? Aggie, I thought you had the same '07 Synapse 3 as I do? That was available either way for the same price.

Anyway - I have the triple also and I wouldn't go any other way for the type of riding I do and my strength level at present. It's got the stock drivetrain (except that I swapped for shorter crankarms because of my knees): Shimano 105 crank, FD, cassette and shifters, with an Ultegra RD (for looks as Deb tells us). There are riders much stronger than I around here, women and men both, who have triples on the bikes they take on the hill rides, and use their puppy gears with no shame. (I don't say granny. I know there are grandmothers on this board who are much stronger than I am, and probably most of them go up 15% grades with a standard double chainwheel. ;)) Myself - well, let's just say that when we hit that 21% (or is it 24%?) hill again on Wednesday night after already doing some significant climbing, I was in my 30x25 going less than three miles an hour. :rolleyes: A female Cat 3 racer who was on the ride said she was doing four.

No, obviously you don't use all the gears with a triple, but that's true on any bike with a front derailleur. I ran a spreadsheet a few weeks back for comparison, and while I don't remember the exact details, I think it worked out to the triple gives me four more usable gears than I'd have with a compact. Maybe only three. But that's a LOT, in my book. Because unless you're running a serious alpine setup, a triple allows you to run a much closer-ratio cassette to get comparable high and low ranges, and that translates into being able to stay at your ideal cadence more often.

I've got 3,000 miles on this bike and haven't dropped the chain yet (touch wood), don't even know what "ghost shifting" is. I had a triple on my touring bike when I was younger and I don't remember ever dropping the chain on that bike, either, although my guess is it must have happened once or twice in the miles I put on that bike (I'm going to guess about 20-25,000 miles, though I didn't have a computer for most of that time.) Sometimes I get a grindy FD shift, but that's obviously my technique since it doesn't happen all the time.

My experience is very similar to Oakleaf's. I have a triple and use my smallest gears without shame on my hilliest rides. We have a lot of steep grades in southern Indiana and, even when the road isn't quite so steep, I still use my smallest gears with some frequency when my legs start to fatigue. It's especially helpful on multi-day tours. I've been told I'm a good climber (I've been on a quest to find my inner goat and am finally starting to make some progress) and I'm small, but I still need 'em. I also like having a tight cluster in the rear and being able to pick my choice of gear even on the flats. It's windy here a lot and incremental changes help me find a sweet spot no matter the terrain or weather.

I had some problems last year with dropping my chain going from my little ring to my middle ring. I got a new crank last year--a much nicer one--and haven't had that problem since. I don't know if it's the crank or just a better adjusted FD, but the shifting in front now is very good. Previously, I would hesitate to shift up out of my little ring, leading me to spin out . Now, I don't give shifting up as much thought. I run Campy on my bike for what that's worth.

It's so hard to know in advance what will work for you. It sounds like you've had good luck with your triple on your MTB. Climbing with a road bike will be different if, for no other reason, than the bike will be much lighter. If you're on the fence, I would suggest sticking with a triple. Better to have too many gears than too few.

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Originally Posted by Ciao

You are all welcome to head over! :D We love visitors!

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I COULD take you up to that. I've been ideating about cycling the Toscana.......

My road bike has a compact. It's fine for everyday riding, although there are certainly days I wish I had an extra gear or two. I do ride some pretty decent hills with it, but if I was going to ride stuff that was averaging above 10%, I would definitely need a triple. I ride with a guy that has a triple, and I have certainly envied him when he spins while I mash.

I am having a 'cross bike built up for commuting and I am putting a triple on it. I have a 2-mile 800' climb to get home; that's a 7.5% average with pitches in the upper teens. No way do I want to be struggling when I'm commuting home with a few groceries and work stuff in my panniers. I even am putting a mountain bike cassette and derailleur on it.

My commuter is going to get an Ultegra crank and front derailleur, so I'm hoping it will perform better (shifter cleaner) than the Tiagra triple that was on a bike I sold.

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Originally Posted by alpinerabbit

I COULD take you up to that. I've been ideating about cycling the Toscana.......

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I've said it before - the rides are perfect, the vistas beautiful, the people warm and friendly, and the food.. oh, the food. :D Come on over! The trains from Switzerland to Firenze are easy ('cept for one stretch that always makes me a little 'carsick' :p).

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Gang, I can't tell you just how much your feedback has helped me. Thank you for taking the time - and please feel free to continue.

Now to figure out the right triple... Shimano vs. Campy (opinions?) & gear inches ... Probably going to be another late night... :D

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Originally Posted by mimitabby

no kidding!

so what's chain suck and ghost shifting?

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Chain suck:

http://www.fagan.co.za/Bikes/Csuck/

"The chain fails to disengage from the bottom teeth of a front chain-ring ; instead the teeth snag the chain and carry it up and around the rear circumference of the ring, winding it back onto itself, and jamming it between the chain-rings and chain-stay. "

As for ghost shifting, I guess thats when you bike shifts on its own. Usually because the rear derailleur is not properly adjusted or due to cable stretch.

The View From The Other Side.

Lots of folks are mentioning the "shame" (or lack there of) of using their granny gears on the triple. There's a definite reverse of that in my section of the riding universe. (which I guess is the utility cycling portion of the universe)

We have hills here in Seattle. When me 'n' my peeps see someone zipping along with just a double, we assume that they probably stick with flat or flattish rides. Cuz someone who leaves the safe and easy routes or who actually uses the bike as transportation rather than as a toy (and hauls stuff on it) is going to need and use a triple around here.

Toy vs. Transportation. Double vs. Triple. Sticking to Seattle's flat and gratuitously fast routes, or riding directly to your destination come he!! or high-land.

Yup, discrimination and self-righteousness live on in us all. (including slowpokes like me.)

(and yes, my bikes with the compact and the standard doubles are my "toys". No doubt about it. My triples are my real bikes.)

Where oh where is that poem a TE'er wrote "Ode to My Triple"? :p