Cycling non-sexism-maybe I hang out with different guys?

http://bikeportland.org/2010/01/12/e...city-of-bikes/

The same stuff about sexism towards women and cycling. Reading stuff like this..makes me feel old. :o Heard this 18 yrs. ago when I returned to cycling. Am still hearing it. And I believe it's true..since I hear stuff on the edges, not directly to myself.
Whenever I read this stuff, I wonder if I just hang out with different cycling guys. They aren't racers but they have done trips over thousands of kms. over mountains,etc. and across several provinces/states/countries. But certainly I don't feel belittled. The cycling guys I know are thoughtful but strong riders.

But then, maybe I just unconsciously avoid other men who are arrogant, etc. I think I really do for cycling and in my personal life.

I also wonder if I've become impatient, uppity over the years, with some women who want to cycle but fear helmet hair and other messier stuff. I think to myself: but this is not even getting mud on your face, in your scalp. It's just helmet hair.

Have you changed now that you're more experienced as a cyclist in situations of sexist attitudes re some irritating men, etc. and towards some women who are fearful of cycling because they look like a mess afterwards, etc.?

I've always been a little impatient with the "but it'll mess up my hair!" types when it comes to anything. Cycling, fencing (those masks will mess up your hair, but it's better than getting a sword through your eye!), cold weather that requires some kind of headwear so your ears don't freeze...
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced this, but if I walk into a bike shop with DBF, they'll talk to him. I'm apparently just the chick he dragged in with him, even if it's for something related to my bike. If I go in on my own, I get a patronizing sort of "How cute. Here's a nice cruiser you might like" Then they look shocked when I go drool over the expensive road bikes! It depends on the shop and who's there when I go (even the snooty bike shop back home has its good employees), but I feel like I should know everything about my options and know exactly what I want to buy when walking in there.

The other thing I noticed about my local bike shop--they have a reasonable selection of women's clothes (odd), but not the greatest selection of women's road bikes. The front half of the store is all pastel-hued cruisers. The women's road bikes they do have only go up to 105-equipped level. Go further back in the shop and you get all the men's road bikes, which go up to Ultegra. Yes, they'll be willing to order a bike for you, but you have to commit to buying it first. How do I know I want to buy it if I can't try it out?!

I prefer to ride alone or with my boyfriend, so it's not like I'm riding with a bunch of guys. If I'm out on the bike trail, I get some really odd looks. The only solo riders I see out there are guys. I've never seen a woman on a road bike on that bike trail. The female cyclists I see are on cruisers or hybrids with their husbands. The guys I see mostly give me a friendly wave. A guy in a pack of cyclists (the sort that give off an "I'm incredibly awesome and have a right to take up the entire trail" vibe) gave me pause, though. I was riding on my own and had stopped for a drink. The last guy in that pack turned (they were going the opposite direction) and yelled something like "You sure you can handle that bike, missie?" :eek::mad:

I try to call out the men in bike shops who think I know about zero, mostly by showing them that I actually do know something. (Um, it's called the internet. I'm capable of doing research.) Situations like the above, though...

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Originally Posted by Owlie

The last guy in that pack turned (they were going the opposite direction) and yelled something like "You sure you can handle that bike, missie?" :eek::mad:

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WHAT?? :eek: :D I would have been speechless. Or I could hope to have answered "Aww, you're a cutie for asking!"

I have to say I rarely experience this on the bici. Plenty on the moto.

Part of it may be that my DH doesn't bicycle, so when I go into a shop, either I'm alone, or it's obvious to the workers that I'm the only cyclist in the couple.

In my areas, there are actually more women in the fast/competitive groups than there are in the more recreational groups I ride with. So I really don't know what it's like for those women. Then the very slow groups have a pretty even mix of women and men, and I kind of know where they are - they're likely to experience snottiness based on their pace much more than their sex.



On the appearance thing, I don't know. I was raised not to care about my appearance at. all., which may sound like a positive thing to some people, but think about having to teach yourself to bathe, groom and dress yourself as a teenager through young adult, and getting to middle age without really knowing how to take care of your skin and nails. I know it *is* harder for women - when I'd take the moto to court, I had to bring along a butane curling iron so I could lose the helmet hair in a public restroom that might not have electric outlets. Never heard of a man having to do that. Men talk about putting on their Aerostich suits over business suits... can't do that when the bottom of your suit is a skirt. As far as whether it's okay to be an athlete and care about your appearance... FloJo completely changed my thinking about that. I'll never say or think it again.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

I have to say I rarely experience this on the bici. Plenty on the moto.

Part of it may be that my DH doesn't bicycle, so when I go into a shop, either I'm alone, or it's obvious to the workers that I'm the only cyclist in the couple.

In my areas, there are actually more women in the fast/competitive groups than there are in the more recreational groups I ride with. So I really don't know what it's like for those women. Then the very slow groups have a pretty even mix of women and men, and I kind of know where they are - they're likely to experience snottiness based on their pace much more than their sex.

On the appearance thing, I don't know. I was raised not to care about my appearance at. all., which may sound like a positive thing to some people, but think about having to teach yourself to bathe, groom and dress yourself as a teenager through young adult, and getting to middle age without really knowing how to take care of your skin and nails. I know it *is* harder for women - when I'd take the moto to court, I had to bring along a butane curling iron so I could lose the helmet hair in a public restroom that might not have electric outlets. Never heard of a man having to do that. Men talk about putting on their Aerostich suits over business suits... can't do that when the bottom of your suit is a skirt. As far as whether it's okay to be an athlete and care about your appearance... FloJo completely changed my thinking about that. I'll never say or think it again.

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At least FloJo was not stopped from trying to be an athlete (of course, other things happened later, performance-enhancing drugs, etc.). And at least you did go to court with your dress on motorcycle, etc. (Have I got that right?). It didn't stop you. Guess the helmet hair thing that I mentioned, is more why some women won't even engage in a sport for something as minor as messed up hair.

But it is their choice. So yoga might be better. Less messier but a good form of exercise while one still looks "decent", not too messy, muddy, etc. :p

Methinks I just probaby have gradually developed an unconscious radar over past few decades just to avoid and eliminate trying to understand and be with guys in my personal life who have problematic attitudes. Can't say the same for certain guys in some workplaces. But life is short and I want to enjoy cycling. Yes, there have been occasional guy at LBS places who are patronizing, but it is a matter of holding one's ground, reading up enough in advance to ask good questions, etc.

Back to article link: As for women in leadership roles in the cycling world, in Vancouver there a small handful of women who have taken upon this in various roles for cycling advocacy, etc. I haven't heard all their stories, but one of them was a randonneur and long distance bike tourer (she was featured on the front cover of Momentum last year, an older face photoed with some younger folks) in addition to taking on lead role in cycling advocacy for many years. Via her, one can sense, that she had to deal with certain 'attitudes'. In both Toronto (and I'm referring to the time I lived there, don't know the situation now) and Vancouver, there are less women heavily involved in leading the charge on cycling advocacy. I have to say cycling advocacy does mean getting involved in lots of meetings on often, technical matters, politics, which to me, can be abit energy-sucking. I prefer the individual soft-pedalling of cycling advocacy: walk the talk so to speak, and share the fun/culture of cycling and rides.

Or writing about it. :) Though it's like talking to the wind. Who reads the stuff? But I like to ponder and share.

When I first went into an LBS looking for a bike after 20 years of non-riding, they gave me a big, heavy good quality hybrid which I was beyond after 3 months of riding. My fault or theirs? Now, when I walk in (by myself) and ask about rear cassettes and gear ratios for my nice road bike, they ask me where I am riding, and the whole tone of the conversation changes.

There are many 50-70 year old female cyclists in my community. They don't worry about hair. Most have short grey hair. I'm the only one with long brown hair tied in the back (which I don't worry about).

The fast male riders that are in the club - I don't see them much because they are gone - are very encouraging when we do catch up to them at the lunch stop.

The funniest episode was when a group of older women cyclists were stopped at a deli where there were a group of Harley motorcycle men stopping also. They asked where we came from - about 20 miles away, and went 'right on' and 'thumbs up'. So, not all fast men are arrogant. And bike shops should take women more seriously.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

Whenever I read this stuff, I wonder if I just hang out with different cycling guys. They aren't racers but they have done trips over thousands of kms. over mountains,etc. and across several provinces/states/countries. But certainly I don't feel belittled. The cycling guys I know are thoughtful but strong riders.

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+1. I grew up with racers around - most of them male except for my sister and another girl - and never was treated in a way that made me feel unworthy or belittled. We were a big but quite tight group of people that liked to ride bikes and train together.
We all cracked jokes occasionally, we all had strong and weak days, and we all fell off the bike here and there :rolleyes: - but there was never disrespect. Actually, I remember mutual help and camaraderie in many occasions, regardless of gender.

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Originally Posted by Owlie

It depends on the shop and who's there when I go (even the snooty bike shop back home has its good employees), but I feel like I should know everything about my options and know exactly what I want to buy when walking in there.

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Well, that would certainly help. I guess the more it looks like you are in a shop to 'browse' or to ask for advice - and the more likely is that you will get some kind of advice, including probably suggestion of pink cruisers you have no interest for. For what they know - and for the way they are trained on the job - maybe they think they are actually giving you good advice by suggesting a hybrid or a cruiser. I guess we, as customers, educate the shops on what we want, as much as the shops educate us on what we should buy, in a way...

I do not recall ever experiencing any sexist behavior in a bike shop - in car dealerships, well, that's another story. Most people I met in bicycle shops have been helpful and kind. It might also be a slightly different viewpoint: I build and repair my own bikes for the most part, and go see my mechanic when I get stuck with a problem that I don't know how to solve - and that we cannot solve brainstorming on the phone :D.
Most of the time, if I walk in the shop is either to say hello or to buy a part (most often).
In the first case - I'm just there to say hi so I hang out and help if they need - so people seem to be more grateful than anything else. It happened more than once that the employees were busy with customers and someone else walked in with a broken something, and they asked me to fix it so the customer would not wait too long...
But, being the impatient person I am, most of the time I walk into a shop I do so for a purpose. I need to buy something, and I'm usually in a hurry, and the only conversation happening is 'hello, how are you, I need a 10-cog rear derailleur pulley for campy record 10, please' Now, if someone would answer that with a suggestion of buying a something else of whatever color, I'd probably be concerned about their mental health and call 911.
With this I'm not saying that you have to become the handy home mechanic - but if you know at least the basics about what you ride and how it works, people may actually learn to cater to you with a different attitude.

In several occasions, when I was in a shop buying something, I noticed that men more frequently walk in for something that needs attention: broken chain, bent derailleur, flat tire, whatever - it's broken, needs to be fixed. On the other hand, some women walk in for weird complaints: they cannot touch the ground when on the seat (heard that one and saw the desperate look on the shop owner's face who also happened to be a woman), the chain stains their jeans (yes, I swear, I heard this last week and had to grab some bibs and hide myself in the dressing room to avoid laughing my head out), or their husband's bike hub (well the lady actually said wheel) makes a noise and they cannot hold a conversation (heard this one too), or what may seem to be a petty issue to most employees. I underline some women because it's just a few, of course and thanks God! But, those some for sure help fuel the annoying attitude of shop employees that many others will have to experience in return.

It's sort of like road traffic behavior: all of us riding a bicycle sometime have to pay the 'toll' for those cyclist who run red lights and stop signs and do not respect the rules. We get yelled at because yesterday someone else on some other bike ran the red light. We didn't, we stop - but in someone's eyes we are perceived as the same kind, we ride a bicycle too.
Human beings tend to generalize and to use stereotypes, so if three women walk in the shop with the attitude of 'it messes up my hair' or 'what is this round thing?', then soon many other women will be perceived that way unless they prove themselves otherwise. Unjust, for sure, but common.
How do you prove yourself otherwise? Do your homework if needed, and keep going in spite of any annoying behavior. Keep riding your bike, keep going to the shops and demanding correct and professional behavior. Sooner or later people will learn :)

But then, I have to agree with Shootingstar again:

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

But then, maybe I just unconsciously avoid other men who are arrogant, etc. I think I really do for cycling and in my personal life.

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+1 x 2!
In general I have a very low tolerance threshold for aggressive behavior (and an even lower tolerance for aggressive women, actually) - so I am quite sure that I do not invite aggressive individuals of either sex to come my way, whether in a bike shop or elsewhere... And I am quite grateful that they don't :)

Well, I have experienced both types of treatment; generally there are so many cyclists here that seeing a lone woman rider doesn't turn heads at all. There are tons of serious recreational riders AND racers of both genders who live in the area. I don't see any women on cruisers! Hybrids, yes, but men, too. The only place I see cruisers are beach areas.
I have experienced the "ignoring" in a bike shop when I go in with DH, but it was awhile ago. And then, I didn't have the knowledge I have now. Still, my mechanical knowledge is not that great, but I can go in and have a semi-intelligent conversation about components, etc. DH does all of the work, so I rarely go into a LBS.
I do care about how I look, but it would never stop me from riding or doing anything sweaty. I love getting sweaty and dirty. I cut my hair short to avoid most hassles there. My caring about how I look gets translated into wearing cool cycling jerseys, etc. If people are going to judge me because I wear make up or care about clothes, etc., it's no better than people judging me because I don't care about this stuff. I like the fact that I can be tough and look good.
The guys in my cycling group(s) are older people like me, who respect everyone. They are cool. There's a ton of strong women riders, too, of all types. I stay away from the other types. Besides, I can't keep up with them.