Not wanting "organic" bread

A little incident early this morning, as another reminder how much there needs to be ongoing education for the public about healthy foods. Different tactics have to be used for different population segments, depending on the local population demographics for :

Eating least processed food, food closest to their natural state and also food that has less chemicals and other additives to improve "mouth feel".


A Filipino woman (I judged this from her visage and her accent) beside me in line-up at the artisan bakery asked the clerk: "Do you have any bread that is not organic?" I think the clerk was trying to figure this one out because most of their bread choices were "organic" or healthy. I turned to the woman and said, "But it's healthy." She said the bread was not for her. She nearly glared at me.

OOOook. Didn't know I dived off the dock on this one! :o

After thinking about this for a minute, I chatted briefly with the clerk afterwards. She said there were the occasional folks who perceived organic bread as a sham, blah, blah. I suggested to her that maybe next time, a better way to sell the bread to certain folks was to explain the bread has no shortening, no sugar, etc.

In my humble opinion, artisan bread to certain population, particularily those raised on Asian diets or those accustomed to Wonder bread, they would find the artisan bread "hard", or chewy for certain bread types. (French bread, ciabatta, ficelles, etc.). I know I did when I first switched about 15 years ago, while straddling with softer mouth feel breads, like focaccia.

Also people have to be taught that artisan bread keeps longer if it is not presliced at the bakery and kept in its paper bread, not in plastic (where mold will develop faster). Sounds simple, but huge segments of the population need to be taught this if breadmaking is not part of their family/cultural tradition/diet.

Shootingstar,
I am fairly certain that woman was asking for non-organic bread because organic items are generally substantially more expensive. Organic bread around here is about $4 or $5 a loaf. Yes it is healthier, but some people simply can't afford it.
And I think I may have done this myself on occasion.

Sure, organic, artisan bread is more healthful and tastier and doesn't support the food conglomerates to the same degree or whatever, but when I see a loaf of whole wheat sandwhich bread that will last for two weeks if I keep it in the fridge, well. I'd love if I could afford to buy ciabatta all the time, or even had the time to learn how to make it, but I can do neither in my current situation.

I can see where you're coming from, shootingstar, but we don't know anything about this woman... and if a stranger in the market had questioned my buying choices, I might have glared too. :o

Organic doesn't necessarily equal artisan, nor does artisan mean organic.... you can get Safeway's O organics line of bread that is whole wheat, but pretty much regular soft sandwich bread. I know there are a few other brands out here that do organic breads that are not hard crust French or Italian artisan styles too. On the other hand some of the tastiest artisan breads around here are not organic (though by their nature do not have nasty stuff like HFC's or preservatives in them - looking at their bread ingredients most loaves have simply flour, water, yeast and salt unless the recipe specifically calls for some sweetener - like in challa).

I'm betting with some of the others here that the woman was concerned over the cost more than anything.

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Originally Posted by Eden

the woman was concerned over the cost more than anything.

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Except that she was in an artisanal bakery.

Now, I agree that if another customer in a store specifically asks for something, it's not for me to lecture her about her choices. (But I think it would've been perfectly okay for the store employee to ask for her reasoning - to try to determine what breads she might find acceptable and correct any possible misperceptions.)

But if cost were the issue, she wouldn't have been in that bakery at all.

Hey folks, not disagreeing about the cost issue for "organic" breads. This bakery doesn't overtly advertise "organic". If you tasted their brands, its more artisan.

What I was focusing more was how to better market to diverse populations in certain North American cities, where some people genuinely don't understand about much about the health benefits of certain foods/food products.

I'm not that pure. We don't buy organic fruits and veggies simply because of cost. We merely try to buy local, which is only possible during growing / harvest seasons.

If I can elaborate on my point, if you go to any of the Asian bakeries (in large North American cities if they exist), their breads and cakes are um..."softer" in mouth feel, most likely using shortening and other agents to achieve that mouth feel taste. There has been a change in past 15 years, where one sees pita breads, sandwich grain breads creeping onto the shelves.

For instance, I would not serve hand baked French bread or the "harder" mouth-feel European breads in great quantities to my parents or any relatives with a still a dominant Chinese/Asian diet. It would be more the North American born relatives or those with heavily Westernized diets that would gobble up artisan bread.

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Except that she was in an artisanal bakery....

But if cost were the issue, she wouldn't have been in that bakery at all.

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She may well have no idea what an "artisanal bakery" is! I didn't a couple of years ago. It's quite likely that she is from a place where a bakery is a bakery. Lots of people go to a bakery because the bread is (or used to be) fresher than from supermarket shelves.

Another possibly is that she has the idea that 'organic' bread means whole grain non-white bread with a hard chewy consistency (this is a pretty common notion), and she just wanted white fluffy bread. And maybe her descriptive vocabulary was limited.
In the Caribbean and Puerto Rico (where I lived for many years), the average person thinks that bread that is very white and very soft and very fluffy is superior bread that you can be proud to serve. Harder chewy non-white bread with grain bits is looked upon with suspicion as being crude, perhaps even stale. The softer, whiter, and fluffier the better. And any good homemaker goes directly to the local bakery to buy bread, not the supermarket. :)

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Originally Posted by OakLeaf

Except that she was in an artisanal bakery.

...

But if cost were the issue, she wouldn't have been in that bakery at all.

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Now, I do a lot of my clothing and household shopping at thrift stores, but sometimes, I go into expensive clothing stores, or :eek: local bike shops, and only seriously look at the clearance rack because I can't afford the regularly-priced merchandise. Cost is an issue with much of the products at Whole Foods, too, for example, but that doesn't stop me from going in there once in a while.

But I'll get off the cost horse now, since that's not where the OP wants to go with this topic. :o

I would never eat bread that you can keep for two weeks. It just isn't natural. I often bake bread myself or I buy it at a local bakery. Never in a supermarket. I keep my cut bread in the freezer and use just what I need.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

...I turned to the woman and said, "But it's healthy." She said the bread was not for her. She nearly glared at me.

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I have to agree with a few others --- organic doesn't necessarily mean healthy (organic pastries - high-fat, refined yet organic flour, organic sugars - organic yes, healthy, no!) and non-organic can most definitely be healthy!

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Originally Posted by BleeckerSt_Girl

She may well have no idea what an "artisanal bakery" is! I didn't a couple of years ago. It's quite likely that she is from a place where a bakery is a bakery. Lots of people go to a bakery because the bread is (or used to be) fresher than from supermarket shelves.

Another possibly is that she has the idea that 'organic' bread means whole grain non-white bread with a hard chewy consistency (this is a pretty common notion), and she just wanted white fluffy bread. And maybe her descriptive vocabulary was limited.
In the Caribbean and Puerto Rico (where I lived for many years), the average person thinks that bread that is very white and very soft and very fluffy is superior bread that you can be proud to serve. Harder chewy non-white bread with grain bits is looked upon with suspicion as being crude, perhaps even stale. The softer, whiter, and fluffier the better. And any good homemaker goes directly to the local bakery to buy bread, not the supermarket. :)

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I suspect it is true that her definition of bakery is merely bread that is fresher than supermarket.

Would agree on different attitudes in other parts of the world, that there is in minds of some folks that "white", soft and fluffy bread is seen as superior and even status-oriented. (ie. an implication one has money to buy Western style food, etc.)

Until last 10 years, many of the Chinese grocery stores in Chinatowns I've been in, rarely carried hardly or no brown rice at all in large amounts. (Black rice is for occasional, specialized dishes). Brown rice is viewed by traditional minded folks, as crude, low status/peasant. Regardless of brown rice's real health benefits.

Certainly one does not offer in temples...brown rice to the "gods". It tends to be white rice. Sorry, to mix comments on rice vs. bread, but that is the other major carb. where similiar attitude exists of "white" is 'better' in the minds of some folks.


Japanese cuisine does seem to integrate into some traditional dishes, some brown rice.

Well, Bleeckerstgirl, if you want to open your own bakery, you already know how to market that bread! :D;)

As for storage of the bread and not having it presliced, I learned from my partner, who learned from his mother..

It takes us several days to eat the bread, depending on loaf size. No, we don't put it into the freezer. Eh, it doesn't bother me, as long as there's no mold.

Our bread source: http://www.terrabreads.com

Other source is abit more expensive, but 1-2 types not listed, we enjoy. http://www.labaguette.ca/home.html See their notes on shelf life.

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Originally Posted by shootingstar

I suspect it is true that her definition of bakery is merely bread that is fresher than supermarket.

Would agree on different attitudes in other parts of the world, that there is in minds of some folks that "white", soft and fluffy bread is seen as superior and even status-oriented. (ie. an implication one has money to buy Western style food, etc.)

Until last 10 years, many of the Chinese grocery stores in Chinatowns I've been in, rarely carried hardly or no brown rice at all in large amounts. (Black rice is for occasional, specialized dishes). Brown rice is viewed by traditional minded folks, as crude, low status/peasant. Regardless of brown rice's real health benefits.

Certainly one does not offer in temples...brown rice to the "gods". It tends to be white rice. Sorry, to mix comments on rice vs. bread, but that is the other major carb. where similiar attitude exists of "white" is 'better' in the minds of some folks.


Japanese cuisine does seem to integrate into some traditional dishes, some brown rice.

Well, Bleeckerstgirl, if you want to open your own bakery, you already know how to market that bread! :D;)

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All true! :)

I've gotten back into baking our own bread for the past couple of months, and I do find the bread stays perfectly fresh for several days without being refrigerated. It's cool.
It's odd not going to the bakery much anymore. Still not sure whether this is a permanent thing, but so far I am enjoying it!

It's been years since i was in Puerto Rico, but surely there must be some whole grain bread there by now..... ;) :rolleyes:

Oddly enough, at our house, basically white bread is still the favorite, even when home made. :o
Not organic, but unbleached and no weird stuff or preservatives added! ;D

Funny - the Terra Breads aren't 100% organic either. ;)

The bread I bake isn't organic. I don't use 100% organic flour. Yeast is yeast comes in 2 pound block I keep in the freezer. Salt is inorganic so none of this organic non-organic. Butter I use isn't organic either nor the milk use. I often use milk in place of water.

Much to my horror, my partner bought a Trader Joe brand of organic artisian bread :mad::mad: the other day.