bike geometry

I have a new Specialized Safire Expert - I was very excited to get it after owning a HT for all my cycling needs - I was excited until I rode some steep, bumpy downs - stuff I had been able to ride on my hardtail. I feel like the center of gravity is higher and more forward on the Safire - just enough to send me over the top more often than I'd like. My old bike was a small men's sized bike and I thought the DFW geometry of the Safire would be wonderful. But, it's not. My buddies (all guys) say to give it time and I'll get used to the new ride. I feel like the bike doesn't fit me - although the bike store says it does - I'm a pretty average size person 5'6", average torso length, etc. but I don't like the feel of the bike. Have any other women run into this? Has anyone tried a set back seat post? Will I learn to love this bike if I just push it over the bumps?
PS I've never done this forum thing before but I really want to connect with some women who know and love their bikes and the mountains as much as I do.

Have you checked your knee position over the pedal spindle (KOPS)? If you don't know how to do that, you tie a small weight to a string, and have someone else hold the top of the string from the farthest forward part of your front knee when your pedals are in the horizontal (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock) position with the weight dangling straight down.

A good starting point that works for most people is having your knee right over the pedal spindle, but some do better with the knee slightly behind the spindle, which will bring you farther back on the bike. To achieve this, you might need to move your saddle back on its rails. It sounds like your KOPS position may be further forward than on your old bike. (I'm assuming you don't still have it so can't check). Very likely your top tube is shorter too. If you can't get your KOPS back far enough with your current seatpost (somewhat common in women since we have longer femurs for our height than men), a setback seatpost may be helpful. I've needed them on my road bikes to get me over or behind the spindle.

I hope this helps! A good bike fitter will know all this stuff, but it can be done at home as well.

It may be that the Safire is more slack geometry than what you are used to. Many older HTs are the more race type geometry where your butt in higher, and your shoulders are lower; "laid out". The Safire is more slack, a little more of the "sit up and beg" kind of geometry which in the long run will be more stable especially on technical trails and down hills.

What size bike is it? Just curious.

You might experiment with your body English as you get used to you new bike. Be sure you are off the saddle, weighted on your pedals, hips back when you go down hills. Relax and let the suspension do it's job. That will also feel new to you, if you've been riding hard tails.

Where are you located?

Thanks, Emily. I will check the knee position with a weight. That may help me understand why it also feels like I have lost some stroke power. I would bet my knees were slightly behind the spindle on my old bike because that's sure where they feel like they want to be now. (I do have my old bike because I love it so much and I am often tempted just to go back to it but I'm going to give this FS a good go because it was such a lovely gift from my husband in spite of the fact that I spend much less time with him when I'm most happy on my bike - maybe he likes it that way? I digress).
Irulan you must know how I feel because you used perfect words. Laid out flatter is how I used to feel on my old bike and 'sit up and beg' is a perfect description of my body on my new bike -which is a medium frame. Will this really make me more stable in the long run?
Maybe it's just that I trusted my old bike - I believed I could push it through and over anything and I don't trust the feel of this bike yet. Even so, I still need a lot of technical advice. On my hard tail I could get down the technical stuff by getting my butt back and squeezing my seat with my thighs for stability. I keep trying to do the same thing but I end up with my butt pretty much on my back wheel and my thighs end up underneath the seat - it's not very pretty or very stable! Maybe I just don't know how to ride a FS.
I'm in Wyoming and I appreciate being able to connect through this forum and I'm grateful for the help already!!

When I was looking to move up from my rigid bike to a FS, I tested an insane amount of bikes. There wasn't one 5inch travel bike that I felt comfortable on. It was exactly as Irulan described: I felt 'on top' of the bike, not 'in' it. I didn't feel like I had the power transfer that I was used to, and they were esspecially scary going down hills! I needed to be on a bike that was more like my rigid; aggressive geometry, leaning over more, lower center of gravity. If the bike you have fits you well then I would try out a couple 4inch travel bikes (classified as XC race) like the Spec Epic, Santa Cruz Blur XC (not LT), Trek Top-fuel, Yeti ASR-sl to see if they are more to your liking. I ended up with an Ibex Asta, which is pretty comperable geometry-wise to the Blur XC. BTW, I am 5'8" ride men's Medium and have proportions that just do not fit on women's bikes.

HTH!

Edited to add: Now that I read your last post...The butt-back, squeeze the thighs method is exactly what you should be doing with your new bike(to let the suspention do the work), except in the most extreme downhills. On the same terrain, I would think that you would be 'back' as much as your old bike. There shouldn't be THAT much of a change from a HT to a FS that would make you go over the bars or even feel like you will. If I was you, I might go to your LBS and try try try bikes. I would start with a medium Stumpy (mens), to see if you feel better and if that doesn't do it start trying the 4inch bikes. You will know it when you feel it.

Let's talk technique a bit.

(lol I see the previous post contradicts just about everything I have written here, so try things and see what works for you)

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On my hard tail I could get down the technical stuff by getting my butt back and squeezing my seat with my thighs for stability.

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Sorry I missed this the first time around. Think about riding LOOSE, not holding the saddle with your thighs. All that accomplishes in the long run is bruises, and a false sense of security.

Think of is this way. If you hold the saddle with your thighs, you keep your balance point high, and this is why you probably feel like you are going to go over the bars - you butt/hips/center of gravity is literally weighted too high and forward. I know, I used to ride like this and had the bruises to show for it.

I have been professionally coached since 2003, and what follows is what they teach us. I also now coach in local clinics, and I happily pass it on.

This is part of the segment we call body english/neutral:

When you are off your saddle, you are balanced mostly on your feet, with your hands just a little bit. Your weight is on your feet, equally, feet at 3 & 9. Your shoulders are relaxed, eyes forward, no death grip. You want your legs loose and relaxed - lots of space showing between your knees and the frame, and you are NOT holding the saddle with your thighs, EVER. Think of your saddle as a balance point, not something to hold onto.

What happens when you focus on being balanced on four points (hands/feet) instead of one ( thighs clamped to saddle) your CG ( center of gravity) is lower, and it's not fixed; it can move around to accommodate changes of terrain. When your legs are loose, it also frees them up to steer with the knees, a critical part of cornering. Last but not least, when your legs are loose it allows the suspension to work fully.

Here's another way to think of it. Thighs holding saddle is a triangle pointing down, weight on top. Legs loose, weight on feet, triangle pointing up with weight on bottom. Which configuration will be more stable?

There are a lot of nifty drills and exercises that one can do to get comfortable with this, but I've already written a novel on this.

This will probably be way out of your comfort zone to do this, but I encourage to you try. It will make a world of difference in your riding for stability, control, being relaxed and trusting your bike to work for you. I used to ride like this - so I know. I've worked with gals who were so conditioned into holding onto their saddle with their thighs that we have pulled the saddle/seat post out of the frame to break them of that habit. Not on the trail of course, in the skills sessions. The look on their faces when they "get' what we are trying to teach is awesome.

anyway, something to think about. I would look at technique and suspension set up before I ever started messing with KOPS and set back seat posts. Set back seat posts shouldn't be a first consideration if your bike was fit properly.

Irulan

oh, and make sure your suspension is set up correctly for your weight. If the dealer won't do it, you can find the manuals for your shocks, both front and rear, online. My specialized came with dvds and manuals for setting up the shocks.

I don't have much to add- what's been written already is great stuff- except this:

When I switched from a HT to a FS, it took me a long time to get used to the action of the rear suspension. Because of this, I ran the rear shock too firm, and then wondered why I felt high and "bucky" on the bike. I swear, I thought that thing was going to launch me into the nearest tree! I revisited my shock set-up, and lowered the air pressure to something more suited for my weight, which in turn allowed me to better fine-tune the rebound. All of this added up to a more "in the bike" position, a suspension that properly unloads without packing down, and more confidence. Something to try....

//is off to remove seatpost from frame like Irulan suggested...and break that bad thigh habit! :)

Well, gosh. I was taught to hold the seat with thighs if you have a FS. What you say makes sense, but now it is going to be icky to re-learn.

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Originally Posted by alleyoop

Well, gosh. I was taught to hold the seat with thighs if you have a FS. What you say makes sense, but now it is going to be icky to re-learn.

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Seriously! I hope that DH doesn't have the camera handy.....

By the way, does anyone have pics of what you're supposed to look like when you're off the saddle? I learn well by seeing things...both demonstrations and photos. TIA!

Hey you gotta do what works for you. :D

Here's some assorted photos, all from my personal mtb pages

http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/pen...ing/biking.asp and
http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/pen...g/ridetips.asp

This is from a NORBA nationals down hill race, crazy stuff,

http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/pen...es/DHbackw.jpg

Here's me on my new Specialized,

http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/misc/stella-med.jpg

Notice the wide knees, not tucked up to the saddle. The bike moves freely.

my good friend using the attack/neutral in our rock playground


http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/pen...s/neutral1.JPG

one of my favorite quotes,

"the saddle is not a butt rest"

Also,
I've been taught a pretty tall stance, what I call "Canadian style" since we learned it from Cindy Devine, Canadian world champ and mtb hall of famer.
Not everyone agrees with the taller stance but hey, those Canadians can ride like nobody's business - I swear the girls have balls. The key is to stay loose, don't lock your joints, and work in concert with the suspension on your bike.

have fun.

Thanks for all the help - especially the pics. I found the website helpful as well. On that downhill pic - the one with the loose knees - is any part of your body actually touching the seat? the guys say they get their bellies down on their seats. How much weight do you keep on the front? I'm so ready to try all your ideas but unfortunately we just got hit with a blizzard and LOTS of snow with more coming. It'll be awhile till there's much riding on the mountain - but we needed the moisture. Ski season isn't over!

I second all that the others have said about the slacker geometry of this bike. When I decided to go FS a year ago I rode everything I could get my hands on, and then concentrated on the Giant Anthem 0 and Specialized Epic (and Era for the WSD comparison) for the racier more upright geometry and then the Giant Trance 0 and Specialized Stumpjumper (and Saphire in its WSD equivalent) for the more relaxed geomtery and travel options. I ended up going for the Epic in the end as I liked the feel better. Then, because I am a girl of longer legs and shorter body, tried the Era as the equivalent WSD model and bought it. I just couldn't quite feel at home on the Stumpy or Saphire for just the reasons you mention. So I understand how the bike geometry plays a big part in your comfort level.

However, I also went to a good bike fitter and on a cautionary note I will just pass on comments made by him with regard to fitting women with KOPS. While it is correct that a position over the spindle is the generally-accepted set-up, and just behind the spindle may give you a little more comfort in descending by pushing you a little further back, his preference by far is to set up women (and I would have to admit his particular specialty is setting up women on bikes) with a position just in front of the spindle to benefit climbing, as he says this makes the most of your climbing power and that is where women generally need more help than descending. Also, the knee behind the spindle position is somewhat disadvantageous in terms of lever arm and can be hard on your knees if they cause you dramas.

Please ignore this if you are a whippet that flashes up hills and you need no advantage there, but just realise that there are consequences (less climbing power) if you shift to a behind the pedal position to try to offset something that is more an inherent characteristic of the bike's geometry. As fantastic as the saphire is (and they are gorgeous, and I have friends and a husband who like that style of geometry very much) it may just not be the right type of geometry for your style of riding (as it wasn't for me) and trying to tune this out by a change in KOPS might be a little like trying to turn a truck into a sports car by putting a chrome gearknob and sports steering wheel on it - it just won't change the overall characterisitics of the ride.

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Originally Posted by colleenbc

Thanks for all the help - especially the pics. I found the website helpful as well. On that downhill pic - the one with the loose knees - is any part of your body actually touching the seat? the guys say they get their bellies down on their seats. How much weight do you keep on the front? I'm so ready to try all your ideas but unfortunately we just got hit with a blizzard and LOTS of snow with more coming. It'll be awhile till there's much riding on the mountain - but we needed the moisture. Ski season isn't over!

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nope, not touching the seat anywhere to my awareness. Enough weight on the front to keep control of it. You have to play with where your CG gives you the best control.

From what I've seen, the belly on the seat bit is for dam-near-vertical stuff. Maybe I can find a pic later, off to go skiing this morning...

Thanks and enjoy