Smoke & Mirrors?

Okay, so I got a cheap ($20) fit on my bike a few weeks ago (as some of you know) which involved using a plum bob, taking a couple of measurements, watching me on a trainer and making adjustments, having me compare the length of elbow-to-fingertips to the length from front of the seat to bike stem. Then the guy (20+ years experience) watched me ride on the parking lot, did a couple more tweaks, and his final analysis was that he'd adjusted the bike to its limits and some people would probably find that fine, and I might, but that the bike is really too small for me. (Which I'd suspected.)

This is also the guy who loved my Brooks saddle and couldn't imagine what kind of experienced "bike" person wouldn't know that support is more comfortable than padding.

Then I ended up at a much larger LBS (three different locations in the area) and a guy who was very helpful, spent a lot of time with me, but was fairly dismissive of the Brooks saddles. He told me that my Brooks wouldn't work on a road bike and thought I'd probably like the saddle that comes on the Trek. When I mentioned that I'd be wanting a Brooks on my new road bike, if not the b67 I already have, another one, he gave a slight grimace and shrugged, and didn't say anything else about it.

And when I mentioned getting the fitting and the use of a plumbob and my elbow-to-fingertip measurement, he said, "That's just smoke and mirrors and doesn't mean anything," and gestured to the back of the shop where they do fittings.

While I realize the more involved fittings ought to be better, is it true that what I had done was pretty much meaningless, as the second guy implied?

aren't bike shops great?
I get some of that kind of conflicts of opinion in the same shop sometimes (where i am having my bike made actually) they drive me crazy.

I have had the same thing said to me "smoke and mirrors" Bill Freeman at Elliott said pretty much the same thing (we don't use a Serotta machine because what's important is how you feel)

sorry. I think that the guy at your first shop DID help you. that you don't NEED a Serotta machine, but the Serotta machine also has merit.
and also the old guys (like Bill) who can eyeball you and help you are also
doing a good job.

it's not black and white

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Originally Posted by pooks

He told me that my Brooks wouldn't work on a road bike and thought I'd probably like the saddle that comes on the Trek. When I mentioned that I'd be wanting a Brooks on my new road bike, if not the b67 I already have, another one, he gave a slight grimace and shrugged, and didn't say anything else about it.

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Well that right there tells you he doesn't know as much as he is pretending he does. Brooks saddles work GREAT on most road bikes. Ask all the happy Brooks roadies right here on TE. And of COURSE he'd suggest the saddle that comes with your bike will be good for you- he doesn't want to have to take it off and give you credit for the price of the saddle! I'd be suspicious of HIS "smoke and mirrors". Everything you say the first guy said sounds quite sensible to me, without taking lots of your money either.
Get the right size frame. That's your base. ALL the fit details can be tweaked endlessly later on anyway. The frame size cannot.

No black and white -- that's helpful, Mimi.

And Lisa, I probably didn't make it clear. He said that my current Brooks probably wouldn't work because it's what I'm using on a hybrid, and most people are going to want a narrower saddle on a roadie. However, when I mentioned later that I'd probably be wanting to try a Brooks on the roadie, even if it's a new saddle and not the one I have now, he did give that dismissive shrug.

That's two people at that store who have dismissed Brooks. One was this guy who didn't actively dismiss it, but made it clear by his body language. The other was a younger guy who saw my Brooks, and started showing me other saddles (narrower, padded, some with cutouts) that he just knew would be better.

I think any time you are talking to an LBS guy, you have to consider 2 things: 1. They are trying to make money. 2. They have their own personal opinions which may vary widely based on what they carry and what their experiences are.

We were talking to a mechanic last night, who wasn't trying to sell us anything. But he had strong personal opinions about bikes. What companies are good, not so good, etc. He wasn't all wrong, but wasn't all right either.

Sometimes the old guys miss things. When I bought my Aegis it was supposed to be a bike that would last me a lifetime. The "old guy" who was well respected as a good fitter and who bragged that he often had to redo fittings from "fit systems", missed 2 important things about my body, short femur and short arms.

The short femur problem was easily fixed by getting a zero degree seatpost but, because they cut my steerer tube too short, I had to get a new fork for my bike. My original fork was made by the company but they later went to after market forks. The aftermarket fork changed the handling of the bike.

So my bike that would last a lifetime lasted me 6 years.

I agree with Mimi that he did what he could for that bike but as you become more experienced you'll be seeking a better fit.

And, yes, it is important how you feel but how are you going to know what a good feel is until the bike is dialed in perfectly for you? What if there is something about your current bike that can't be changed but needs to be changed so you can get that feeling? That's where something like the sizecycle is very useful, it can be adjusted to help you feel what optimal fit is.

I think some of these "old guys" view everyone as the same and they use the same rules for everyone. But each person is different, the rules don't always apply and that's the difference between the old school fitters and the newer ones like the Serotta fitters.

I tried doing my own fittings based on what I read in books and still couldn't get it right. I went back to the "old guy" several times to be rechecked and he said I was perfect, but I didn't feel good. It finally took a Serotta fitter to determine what my problem was. I now realize the the "old fitter" was trying to make my "body fit the bike" whereas, he should have been making "the bike fit my body".

Sorry for the rant but for too many years I depended on fitters who eyeballed the fit, used rules like "handlebars so many cm below the saddle", irregardless of cyclist comfort, and I had frames that fit, but bikes that were still uncomfortable, to trust anyone who does minimal, basic fittings. I spent lots of money trying to get bikes to fit only to find out that they really didn't fit.

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Originally Posted by Kathi

And, yes, it is important how you feel but how are you going to know what a good feel is until the bike is dialed in perfectly for you?

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Thank you. That is the prob I have had since I got my bike, and every adjustment would feel "different" which I would usually interpret as "better" but only after riding a few miles would I realize, maybe not.

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Sorry for the rant but for too many years I depended on fitters who eyeballed the fit, used rules like "handlebars so many cm below the saddle",

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The "20+ years experience" guy (which I found out from the website, not because he told me that) said that years ago Greg Lemond wrote his book about what he did, how his bike fit, and for a long time most people took that as gospel, and tried to fit everybody the same way. He claimed some still do.

Pooks, when you get your road bike, you should try riding with the saddle it comes with first. If after putting some long distance on the saddle you suffer from chafing or pain, then switch the saddle. I am saying this because you haven't put any distance on the saddle you have now. By distance, I mean rides that last 3 hours or longer. How a saddle feels for you will be completely different once you start going on longer rides. A saddle might feel great for a 10-20 mile ride, but start doing several 50-mile rides close together and the saddle might turn out to be quite painful for you to ride.

You can get just as much conflicting information on TE as you do by going to different bike shops. It is because cyclists are going to tell you what works for them, or what works for the cyclists they know. It doesn't mean that any of it will be valid for you and your cycling style. The cyclists on TE are varied, from those who don't cycle too much to long distance riders to avid racers, all with different cycling styles and histories.

You need to sift through all of the information, from the TE site and from the bike shops, and figure out what is best for yourself. Just because it is stated on TE, or by an LBS, doesn't mean the information is going to be something you should contemplate on doing.

My advice is to find an LBS, one you can learn to trust, and stick with that specific LBS. The people inside the LBS will get to know you and your cycling style, and they are best suited to help you when you have questions about fit and such. My LBS is a treasure and has been in business for over 30 years. I purchased my bike through the LBS; he was able to order it for me, and then get it adjusted for a final perfect fit. I put lots of miles on this bike every week, happy, comfortable wonderful miles, all because my LBS is there for me.

Oh, and I am using the original saddle that came with the bike, even though I've put in 1500 miles on the bike this year. The problems I've encountered didn't have anything to do with the bike or the saddle because it was the shorts that got too big, or learning to adjust my calories as I increased my miles, or figuring out that it is best for me to stop and relax off the bike maybe once an hour - that type of thing.

Darcy

You make some good points, Darcy. I think the difference between getting advice on TE and at an LBS is that I knew going into it that advice from TE would be subjective and have many variables. I wasn't quite as prepared for how much the advice from the different LBSes and even different people at the same LBS would vary.

You're also very right about the fact that I may not have enough time on my saddle to know how comfortable it is; I just know that it was automatically more comfortable than the one that came on my hybrid so that was an automatic improvement.

As for riding for hours -- that's probably an entirely new thread! Because I do have questions about that.

Well, I tried the Brooks Finesse (their racing saddle) on my road bike because I was having issues... I hated it. I broke it in, but it caused more issues and really, I thought it just didn't look right on my Kuota. I would have kept anything on there if it eliminated the soft tissue issue. I did go back to the lbs and he was upset that I had not come in earlier. He discovered a tiny leg length discrepency, made me a shim and off I went. I put the Terry Firefly back on and voila! It was only with the different geometry of my new bike that I started having issues with the Serfas saddle that I had for 4 years.
My point is that I had an extensive 2 hour computer generated fitting, with all kinds of measurements. He still missed the leg length discrepency. It was my fault for not going back immediately and taking care of it. This shop deals mostly with racers or real newbies and not people like me who are more avid riders, but not competitive. They generally are very nice and they have a woman mechanic.
Do what's best for you.