Group Riding Etiquette

I just read Lisa S.H.'s thread about her first group ride. This is what I love about TE, other people's questions or experiences are always so timely with my own! I was already set to post this thread when I logged in today and saw Lisa's first group ride experience. I have more questions so I thought I'd start a new thread.
I am also very new to group riding. I mostly ride solo or with a friend or two. I am participating in a training series for long rides such as the Seattle to Portland ride (STP, 200 miles in 2 days, for most). The first ride I went on a couple of weeks ago I was very nervous beforehand but it turned out great. There were a lot of people, maybe 50 or so. The ride leader was great, very firm about what he expected. These expectations are also written down in handouts. The main thing was: don't pass the leader, keep single file, except when going uphill, and obey all traffic signals. People were polite and followed the rules, so I felt relaxed and safe.
I went on another ride with this group yesterday. There were different ride leaders for the different mph groups this time, so my ride leader was a different person. A little less communicative. There were 20-30 people in my group, the 12-14 mph group. People were passing each other sometimes on the flats, which seemed unecessary to me, I mean we were all going the same speed. Maybe they should have joined a faster group to begin with. So that unnerved me a bit.
But what really confused me was appropriate behavior at stop signs. 20-30 riders is a long line going down a road. I was somewhere in the middle of the line. There was a stop sign on the road we were on and a stop sign for the car coming out of a side road onto the main road that we were on. I know not every cyclist was stopping fully at the Stop sign. There was a huge space between me and the cyclists in front of me so I stopped and motioned for the car to go. Well, as I'm stopped and motioning to the car another cyclist came up on my left and kept riding through. At that point I figured I better keep going because everyone else was and I didn't want to goof things up further. It feels really wrong to me, but maybe some of you more experienced group riders can tell me what's what. :confused:
Another thing was there was a bit of griping and grousing here and there by different people about other people on the ride. Just overheard conversations on my part, but not friendly feeling.
And last, I am a chicken on downhills and there were a few big ones yesterday. I definitely went down faster than I would have on my own, and faster than I was comfortable with. My computer broke the other day so I don't really know what my speed was but I would guess 20 mph. That was the time I did want people to pass me, because I didn't want to hold them up but I didn't want to go any faster. Eventually some did pass me. What is the proper etiquette in this situation. Maybe I should always ride at the end of the line.
Thanks for any tips any of you can toss my way.

Hey Anorange, good job on getting out for your first group ride!

Personally I think it's unsafe to ride 20-30 people to a single-file paceline. In my group we try never to ride more than 7-8 people "deep", and we ride in a double paceline whenever possible. On most roads around here, it works fine.

As a group, we behave as a car... well, a minibus. :p We make one stop for the whole group at intersections. When a traffic light seems close to switching to yellow, the paceline leaders stop because it's clear that the last riders won't make it through.

Of course that wouldn't have helped your group yesterday, which was so big... Not sure the leaders had thought about safety that thoroughly.... :confused:

I'll let others chime in now!

20 to 30 is definitly too large for a training ride unless you all belong on a team and train together all the time. I declined an invitation about 20 years ago when they broke every promiss they made to me: no we don't run red lights nor stop signs, no we don't take over a lane on the road and stay within the bike lane, we always signal, we ride double pace line...

Don't be shy about voicing your concern. If you don't speak up, the group leader is not going to be aware of your situation. If you feel unsure about going down hill at 20mph, let your leader know so (s)he could adjust his/her speed. These group rides are meant to be FUN/safe/enjoyable and are meant to be a place to socialize with like minded people. A good group will accomodate their slowest and inexperienced riders.

And if their were 20 to 30 people, I'm sure their were others with similar riding experience as you. And you could form a slower/SAFE riding group. A seasoned rider should lead your group at your pace.

Shawn

In my local club, the rule is you FOLLOW the rules of the road. We tend to go through stop signs/lights in as compact of a group as possibe, but not everybody can always make it though. In this case, those that go through should "soft pedal" until the rest of the group gets through and has a chance to catch up.

Regarding passing - people do it quite a bit - sometimes you want a different view, you get a burst of energy, though they should warn that they are "on your left" or "coming through".

I'm not a great downhiller either, I do my best to stay to the right so I can be passed. If I have the opportunity at the top, I suggest others get in front of me then so they don't have to pass later. This has the added benefit of giving me experienced downhillers in front of me whose line I can follow to help me improve this skill.

Everyone else has pretty much covered what I would have added, so I won't go there... but Deanna mentioned going downhills in a bunch...

Etiquette - especially racing etiquette - suggests fast down-hilling should be done single file, never in a bunch.

It sounds like that is what was happening with slower down-hillers hugging the side enabling faster riders to pass and essentially keeping to one line.

Going downhill in a bunch - especially if there are corners, can be particularly tricky and sometimes downright dangerous.

Actually, I wasn't talking about going down hill in a bunch. My descending skills haven't caught up to my climbing strength--so I'll try to stay to the right as much as the downhill will allow. Inevitably somebody who got to the top after me will want to pass me :o

Hey, some of those were the idiots I saw on the trail!!!

There's nothing wrong with going slow down hill. If it makes you feel better, put your right hand straight down and say "SLOWING" and slow down. People can and should pass you, there's NO WAY that 30 people can all go down a hill the same speed and maintain a single line.
The way my group does it is we pretty much each go our own speed up and down hills, and regroup at the top or bottom.

REmind the leader that people are going through stop signs and or passing inappropriately (on your right!) because that will encourage THEM to remind the
rest, hey, if you can't do this right...

You must have passed us. what color ribbons are you guys wearing?
mimi

Mimi, where did you see us, were we heading north or south. What did you see the 'idiots' doing? I was with the yellow ribbon group. Thanks for everyones replies. I will definitely speak with the ride leaders next ride I go on. And I will hang back at the top of a hill and let all who want pass me:)