WSD bikes and Cranky LBS owner

[FloridaGal]

So I just called the Trek Dealer in a different town than the LBS I have been working with to see if they have any Pilots I could test ride and he went on a tirade about how he hates WSD bikes and isn't fond of the Pilots either! He said that the WSD bikes are a "bunch of crap" and that they position riders so that their legs are in front of the crank, when in fact for proper riding, one's legs are supposed to be behind the crank.(that did not make sense to me) Said if I went into his shop and asked for a WSD he would talk me out of it ! He also said he could turn any bike into a pilot (that is, make the stem higher) and then if I wanted it lower later I could go back to the lower position. I explained to him I have some shoulder and neck issues and feel better in the higher position but he kind of scoffed at me. He's the owner of this shop! He promised to give me a proper education if I went there but I am turned off and probably ever go to that store.

I have really noticed a difference on the WSD bikes I have tested but now I am wondering if there is any truth to what the cranky LBS owner was saying. I've been to about 8 different bike shops and most have them have praised the WSD

I am happy with the fit my regular LBS gave me. I felt they took into consideration my health needs, my leg length discrepancies, etc. And they are not pushing a bike, or trying to push a sale right now but rather ride as many bikes, as I want until I find the right one.

How many of you are on WSD bikes? Do you really notice a difference? I am 5-4 and VERY short waisted.

I guess I am babbling without getting to my question..Should I just ignore the rant of cranky LBS or does he know what he is talking about?

[7rider]

My LBS is anti-Pilot, too. And they are a big Trek dealer.
I cannot really say what their issue is, specifically. I think they think the whole line is a "gimmick" but I don't want to put words in their mouth. They will certainly order you up one if you insist on it...but they don't stock them.
I can't really say how they stand on WSD bikes...I've seen some in the shop. I'm big - 5'9" - and fit pretty much anything so I've never really looked at them. However, I ride with one smaller woman who fits fine on her "regular" Trek 5200. The only issue she has is the reach of the STI shifter. Her hands are fairly small. Something like that could be swapped out easily with more user friendly shifters, so long as the frame/stem fits okay.
I would think with proper fitting, a WSD bike is not necessary for EVERY woman. But, I think for smaller women, I could probably see the utility.

[SadieKate]

Well, my LBS likes some WSD bikes. There are a few which do have the seat angle kind of messed up and you can end up positioned too far forward of the crank. In other words, yes, to what he said. But not all WDS bikes are equal and this problem may not occur in all sizes and definitely not in all brands.

I'm 5' 3 1/2" and very shortwaisted. I've never ridden a WSD bike. Haven't a clue if it would serve me well at all. I've always bought my bikes based on top tube length and then used components to fit my smaller everything (bar widths, Campy levers, short cranks, etc.). That said, I've always had my bars fairly low on purpose. A stem with a bit of rise would bring them up if I had neck issues.

Are you set on having a Pilot? What does your own LBS have and did you like it?

[laughlaugh18]

I love, love, love my 15" WSD Trek 7.5fx (which is a hybrid, not a road bike). I'm 5'2" and have neck/shoulder issues as well. My LBS let me try the 7.5fx in WSD and non-WSD version, and I test rode a bunch of other bikes at a bunch of places. The WSD was clearly more comfortable for me, and even with that we still put a shorter stem on it. My LBS had nothing bad to say about WSD bikes (but I wasn't looking at the Pilot so I don't know what they thought about it).

Sounds like this guy is like oh so many Trek dealers I've dealt with - incredibly rude and snobby. I vote for ignore!

[Adventure Girl]

Dismissing all WSD bikes is just as foolish as considering only WSD bikes. Each person has unique geometry. That unique geometry may or may not fit a certain bike in a certain size.

Beyond that, from what you posted about your phone call with this guy, I'd avoid the shop like the plague. Maybe he has a strong opinion about the subject, but it sounds like he thinks that the Trek Pilot WSD will not fit a single one of 6.5 billion people on earth. :eek: And he was cranky about it!

You have choices.

[FloridaGal]

LBS has several WSD bikes. I have riden a few. The one I have riden and loved is the Lemond Tourmalet. I really don't want bike with handlebars that are too low because of my neck/shoulder problems . I am leaning towards the Lemond but I really want to compare it to a pilot and no one seems tohave any now.

[esther231]

I have the Pilot WSD 1.2 47 and am very happy with it. It fits my body really well. I'm short - 5' 1". I'm long waisted for my height.

What I truly love about it is how upright I can be on it when I'm on the top of the handle bar. I'm completely upright. When I'm on the hoods, I can bend down well into them with my arms relaxed. And when I'm in the drops, I'm bent as much as I can be. It just fits me. I think that's the most important thing about any bike for any rider.

No matter what it's called.

[caligurl]

all 3 of my bikes are WSD.... but from specialized.... i don't know if my LBS has an aversion to trek WSD..... but they sure do love and talk up specialized! but that could be just to me... cuz they know i'm a fan (and that i'm lusting after the new WSD s-works! lol!)

they sell both trek and specialized.....

[whateveronfire]

I just finished helping a friend buy a Pilot 1.2 at a Trek-only store near his house. They're a Trek concept store and were VERY pro-Pilot. He's just getting back into riding and it seemed like a good choice for him.

The LBS I bought my bike from is a big Trek dealer and they were very pro-WSD. I don't need a WSD because I'm 5'8" and the LeMond fits me better than any other bike. (The guy actually laughed when he saw how I had my Trek 1200 set-up--he said it looked just like a LeMond set-up with the setback, etc.)

Anyway, I wouldn't buy from a dealer who dissed his/her own brands on the phone.

[tygab]

... and I love it also. I am 5'3 and my LBS spent a goodly amount of time fitting me, adjusting seat, bars and so on.

I am also of the opinion that there are different bikes for different people, and to presume all WSD bikes won't work for all women, seems a bit odd. I certainly wouldn't go to an LBS you don't feel comfortable with.

My very far removed interpretation of the situation is that the bike guy is saying something like "I know what they do to a bike to make it a women's bike and I can do all that too because <my words here> I am a smart bike guy." This I think assumes the frame sizing doesn't matter, but the components can be swapped around. Which may be the case, but if so, is he packaging some of his in stock bikes so adapted for this set of customers to come in and try out? If not, how does he expect to service those who are small and/or have shorter arm reach?

All that said, I was disappointed to realize the Specialized women's bike which had similar componentry and frame qualities to my husband's model was nearly 700-800 dollars more at my LBS. For what I cannot tell you. I did not see this problem in the Trek line and felt for the money I paid, I was getting a bike every bit as good as their men's cycles at that price point.

I think my bike meets all my current needs, which is that of a newbie but a fairly serious one. I will have to see in a few years thoguh if there will be things I want in a road bike that my current bike can't offer and that somehow I can justify spending for. Who knows... I already have drooled at several carbon fiber frames and some of the 'niche' builders but have told myself I have to do a lot more riding before I can entertain such things. It's always fun to imagine I am an advanced rider who will actually notice the difference in these things, but right now I am just a hill slug. :D

[mimitabby]

the guy at my LBS seemed to think that the trek WSD's were just the thing for my 5 foot tall neice.

[snapdragen]

Sounds like one of the LBS's near me. Only this guy refuses to carry anything but road bikes and mountain bikes. Hybrids are a waste of time in his opinion - just a marketing tool.

[Commit2BFit]

I bought a Pilot 5.2 WSD this year. I absolutely love it.

I am 5'4" and long waisted, but I still have a terrible time finding a bike with a comfortable top tube length. My LBS thought they could fit me on standard Pilot, but they agreed the WSD was a better fit.

I love the more upright riding position of the Pilot. I am properly positioned for an efficent pedal stroke and the smaller STI shifters are a godsend. I have small hands and riding with the standard size STI was painful.

My previous bike is a Sequoia Elite, which is a great bike, but it just doesn't fit like the Pilot.

[Geonz]

The LBS may indeed know what he's talking about... but it may not apply to you. What is "proper" cycling position? I would ask him "proper for what?" for maximum efficiency? for minimal back strain?
He seems to assume that nobody in their right mind would keep a higher body position, because he implies that a person would probably want to go back to a lower position, which to me is a clue that he may be locked into "everybody should ride like I do."
Now I want to go out and examine all the bicycling backsides and see if other bikes (besides racing ones) put the legs in front of the crank or not. I think there could be validity to this... I've always felt more efficient on a slight upgrade, and wondered if the different angle - which would be, sending the legs behind the crank with the tilt - was behind that.
Hmmm.... so does he like Joe Breezer bikes, which it would seem throw the legs even further behind the crank?
Anyway... the other thing about LBS dudes is often they don't have the greatest social skills...

[Jo-n-NY]

I also have a WSD, a Specialized Dolce. Before trying it I tried the Allez and there was a huge difference. I am 5'2" and I felt that my arm stretch to the handlebars and brakes on the Allez was more then a stretch than I was comfortable with. My legs are in prefect alignment with the crank. I "think" that with a WSD it is more about the upper body reach than the leg length.

The first thought I have when riding my bike is "it fits me like a glove" and I never had that thought with any other bike that I have owned.

[Bad JuJu]

I wonder whether the guy's "legs in front of the crank" remark referred to that rule of thumb wherein a plumb line dropped from a certain point on the knee should bisect the pedal axle. If so, it's got to be a vast overgeneralization. I mean, it may be true for some WSD bikes that are set up in a certain way, but it's certainly not true of all of them. And whether it even matters depends to a large degree on your particular cycling needs and desires.

I agree with Sue's point, that this guy sounds like the type who think everyone should ride like he does and the ones who don't--well, they don't count. What an a$$! Avoid him like the plague.

[Bruno28]

I bought a trek 7.2 fx wsd hybrid about 6 weeks ago and haven't had to adjust anything since I left the shop. It's comfy and easy to ride. The bike I had before was a crappy chain store mountain bike so I've got nothing to compare with. I'm 5' 2" and would buy another wsd when I progress to my road bike....which I feel is coming :D

[Bikingmomof3]

The bike shop should sell you what fits and what you like. Not what they like or dislike. I went with the intention of buying a Pilot and ended up with a Trek 1000. DH really wanted a Pilot, yet preferred a 1000.

I do not have a WSD, the "regular" 1000 fit me perfectly. I did have a difficult time deciding between the Pilot and 1000, both rode nicely.

Chose what fits your body best, and what you like being on and feel good on.

[esther231]

When I went for a ride today, I checked out my knee to the crank. It looks on top of it to me.

I think it just depends on the person. I do have short arms and that might be why I find the Pilot WSD so comfortable. Who knows?

But the main thing is that guy is cranky and out to prove he's right so I'd steer clear of him and find someone who is most interested in finding what is comfortable for you.

[emily_in_nc]

Two points:

1. Even if smaller WSD bikes typically have a steeper top tube, you can use a setback seatpost and/or move your saddle back on the rails as far as it will go to get your knee over the pedal spindle (KOPS) or even a bit behind it. I know because I have a 75-degree seat tube angle bike (Aegis Swift) and still have my KOPS with these methods.

2. Not all of us prefer WSD bikes to have a more upright position; the way we are built sometimes dictates a shorter top tube proportionally if we have a shorter upper body/arms. We might still have our handlebars lower and/or ride in the drops a lot.

IMO, the guy was a jerk and lumped all WSD bikes into one category when they can't be, any more than "all" mountain bikes, or "all" recumbents, or any other sub-segment of bikes. I'd avoid that shop on principle!

Emily

[wannaduacentury]

My local LBS just got some in, but w/local events these next couple of weeks, are behind on getting them together. But they're putting one together for me to test ride a 1.0. later this week. We'll see. I think they'll be popular in my area(the pilots) that is. They've ordered a fair amt of them.

[Cassandra_Cain]

Woah - talk about an axe to grind - sheesh!

Sounds like this LBS owner is more or less dead set against any and all WSD bikes, not to mention the Pilot ones too. Which is, as has been pointed out, an enormous generalization. Also let's mention the obvious, Mr. LBS owner can ride his man bikes all day and doesn't need (or want) a WSD setup like we might. In addition, so fine, the pilot or WSD bikes fit some people poorly - hello? what bike doesn't!

Thankfully the LBS I do business with has plenty of WSD bikes in all sorts of sizes. I've had my '07 Trek 1600 for 6 weeks now, and it is a 57 too, so they keep a good stock. I used to have a man bike, an 06 trek 1500 but my present bike feels light years better. So the idea that WSD bikes are only for petite gals is also a stereotype - i'm 5'10".

You'll be happier doing your bike shopping elsewhere methinks :D

[tygab]

Two points:
2. Not all of us prefer WSD bikes to have a more upright position; the way we are built sometimes dictates a shorter top tube proportionally if we have a shorter upper body/arms. We might still have our handlebars lower and/or ride in the drops a lot.

Emily

I've wondered about this - I actually ride in the drops most of the time and prefer it to the more upright position. Knowing that most people seem to prefer the hands on the brake hoods, I have wondered if it means something needs adjusting, or if it's just a personal preference. Is there any downside to riding this way more?

[DebW]

I've wondered about this - I actually ride in the drops most of the time and prefer it to the more upright position. Knowing that most people seem to prefer the hands on the brake hoods, I have wondered if it means something needs adjusting, or if it's just a personal preference. Is there any downside to riding this way more?

Part of it is personal preference. But ideally you'd like at least 2 bar positions that you are moderately comfortable in just so you can change positions frequently and avoid hand/arm/shoulder fatigue. If you find yourself riding the drops 80-90% of the time, then you might be better off lowering the bars so that you can go to the drops when you want to be extra low, like during fast descents. This transfers more weight to the front wheel and improves stability. Your preferred riding position may change with time as you get stronger or more used to the bike or more or less flexible. The number to check is the vertical distance between saddle top and handlebar top. Bars about 2 inches below saddle is sort of standard for a rider with moderate flexibility. Racers will put the bars lower, tourers higher. But bars have different drop distances so it can be hard to compare.

[donnambr]

That LBS guy is a jerk who is completely incapable of imagining body types besides his own. I don't think I'll ever need a WSD bike, but I'm 5'8" with a long torso for a woman and really, really long arms. My aunt in contrast, is 5'2" with the same 30" inseam as I have! She's 65 and has never been comfortable on a bike and finds it amazing that anyone would like it. She has to reach too far. Gee, I wonder why. :rolleyes: Well, I visit her next month and I'm going to see if she'll go take a test ride on a WSD bike. Even if she doesn't want one, at least she'll know why it's always hurt for her to ride.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I wrote a long post about how changing my stem out today for a shorter stem really improved my riding position and comfort:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=9998

[cherinyc]

I have a GIANT OCR1 WSD (Compact Frame) with the WSD shifters - and whole-heartedly believe it's the only thing that could work for me. (I am 5'6") I have longish legs (long femurs) but a shorter torso, and short arms. All of the Men's bikes (or even the non-compact framed bikes, gave me too much of a reach.
IMHO, the LBS should let you make the decision of what is best for you. Only you will know what feels right. Even the anatomical variancies of your..um...girly bits...can make a difference in your fit.
Just because a man and woman may be the same height and weight you can not assume that they will fit equally on the same equipment.

[bcipam]

I have a very good friend who runs a very sucessful bike shop and he does sell alot of Trek Pilots both regular and WSD. I sortof understand the reason your bike shop guy doesn't like the Pilot and the WSD bikes. I'm hoping he was actually much more patient with you and explained why the Pilot and and WSD appears "gimmicky" to him (as my friend and I have discussed this at length - he agrees with your LBS guy) and why it wouldn't be a good fit for you.

This is why I am an advocate of having a bike fit done by a professional fitter, someone not associated with a bike shop that sells certain brands. Shops are limited on the models and brands they can sell. They will push what they can sell. I have heard many women order a WSD style bike and are totally unhappy, thus forcing the shop to take back a bike they didn't want in the first place and can't sell. Just make sure the WSD model is really for you. The Pilot is a very upright bike. With the shorter top tube, you might actually be sitting bolt upright. Just not a good cycling position especially if you are serious about riding.

There is a misnomer about having to sit upright if you have shoulder/neck problems. I have a very serious neck/spine degeneration and I am fairly laid out on my bike. My back is almost paralell (sp?) to the top tube. I have no neck problems but I did have a good fitting and I can comfortably reach the handlebars, shifters, brakes etc and I have learned to strengthen my core muscles and ride properly.

The LBS guy is right, but then again so is the customer. I really think he was trying to do the right thing and not sell you a bike you won't in the long run, like. He could have just sold it to you (and it's not cheap!) and if you were unhappy, oh well, tough luck! I rather a shop refuse to sell me something if they thought it wasn't right for me.

[CorsairMac]

I just bought my very first WSD bike (Trek 1000 ) and LOVED IT! I'm only 5'2" and short-waisted with very long legs (29" inseam) but have always ridden longer/taller bikes. Unlike Sadie, I just rode what the bike came with because my ex never thought to switch anything out and I never knew any better.

When I climbed on the WSD: the best explanation I can come up with was it was like sitting in a recliner after being in a straight-back chair! The seat wasn't set right and the stem was too high and it STILL felt llike the best bike I'd ever ridden. It felt like it was built "just for me". Once we reversed the stem and set the seat to my height it was like flying. It is truly the best bike I have ever ridden (next to the Harley of course. ;) )

I think you should go with what feels the best for you, and not worry about someone else's opinion (except for ours here on the board of course :p )

and let us know what you ended up with..........


as for the LBS: I wouldn't go there but then, I hate having people tell me what I can and can't do.

[FloridaGal]

I got a bike! I ended up NOT getting a pilot becasue I rode the Lemond Tourmalet WSD and fell in love with it(her?)
This bike seems to be in between the pilot and more traditional road bikes. Though it isn't as upright as the pilot, I am "up" enough to feel comfortable. Now I know what everyone means when they say when you find the right bike you know :)

BTW. Cranky bike shop owner wll be glad to know i have a bike where my legs are behind the crank but from a nicer shop! I feel like the place I got it from wanted me to find the best bike for me, not make a point!

Thanks to everyone for all of your help/ideas. I love this forum!

[emily_in_nc]

Good for you, FloridaGal!

Take that, cranky LBS guy!!!! :mad:

Congratulations on your new bike, and of course, we must see PICTURES!!!

:D

Emily

[FloridaGal]

Okay I am attempting to attach her photo from the web. I'll send some action shots once get some!

[esther231]

She's a beauty. :) Many happy rides.

[Bikingmomof3]

She is lovely. Happy riding. :)

[midgetcycler]

You might consider riding it by Cranky LBS guy and showing him the sale he lost out on . . .

[bcipam]

I got a bike! I ended up NOT getting a pilot becasue I rode the Lemond Tourmalet WSD and fell in love with it(her?)
This bike seems to be in between the pilot and more traditional road bikes. Though it isn't as upright as the pilot, I am "up" enough to feel comfortable. Now I know what everyone means when they say when you find the right bike you know :)

BTW. Cranky bike shop owner wll be glad to know i have a bike where my legs are behind the crank but from a nicer shop! I feel like the place I got it from wanted me to find the best bike for me, not make a point!

Thanks to everyone for all of your help/ideas. I love this forum!


Not to rile things up... personally I like the Lemond (I ride a Zurich) and think it's a better buy than the Pilot but those two bikes are night and day in geometry and style. The Lemond will have you much more laid out. Maybe the cranky guy knew a thing or two about what you really wanted and needed.... :confused:

Keep in mind both bikes are sold by Trek. Lemonds are famous for their race style geometry (very long top tube - aggressive positioning). The Pilot was originally marketing for the older, affluent person getting back into cycling ( or starting) who wanted a more relaxed, upright position. Like I said I think the Lemond especially the Tourmalet is a quality bike but I'm hoping you are going to be happy with it since your position will not be all that upright. I'm betting you will but don't be so harse on the LBS owner.

[mimitabby]

You might consider riding it by Cranky LBS guy and showing him the sale he lost out on . . .

even better, take it in the shop and buy a 3/4 inch screw from him! (make sure he sees your new bike!)

[Kano]

Riding by, taking the bike into the shop -- I don't think it's going to make a bit of difference. The initial conversation happened on the phone. I don't recall seeing that she ever went into the store and actually met the guy...

Karen in Boise

[CorsairMac]

Congrats on the new bike FlGal: she is a beaut!! I hope the 2 of you have many happy miles together!

[mimitabby]

Riding by, taking the bike into the shop -- I don't think it's going to make a bit of difference. The initial conversation happened on the phone. I don't recall seeing that she ever went into the store and actually met the guy...

Karen in Boise
ah, you're tracking better than some of us are! :p :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :confused: :cool:

[pooks]

I think she was as unhappy about his cranky attitude as his opinion, and she did come here to ask could he possibly be right. But even though it seems like he may have been, it would have been better if he'd not been so cranky that she didn't want to spend a penny in his shop!

That's a beautiful bike.

[caligurl]

i think you're right, pooks.... you can dislike a certain style... or even dislike wsd.... but it can be presentely NICELY!

i'm one who LOVES specialized WSD! they fit my body style wonderfully (longer legs shorter torso)... i can't speak of pilots.... only looked at them never "tried one on" cuz when i saw it in person.... i no longer liked it (and we all KNOW how important looks are in our bikes!)

i think she did the right thing and doesn't owe the jerk LBS guy ANYTHING!

[FloridaGal]

The thing that turned me off of Cranky LBS owner is that he was practically yelling at me on the phone about how much he hates ALL WSB. (Which I did end up getting) I was listening to his points but instead of asking me questions about my riding goals, build, etc. he just told me WSBs weren't for me. I did wonder about what he said but wanted to ask you all since you don't bite my head off.

The LBS raised the stem and I feel I am as upright as I need to be (don't know if this will change as I get into the longer distance rides. On the tourmalet, I am more upright and comfortable than many of the other makes I rode , but not as high as the pilot.
In the end I got a bike that feels great AND found a LBS where I feel comfortable .

[Kano]

OH yeah! I am in total agreement: I never would have set foot in the guy's store either after hearing him on the phone!

Florida Girl, EXCELLENT new bike!

Karen in Boise

[emily_in_nc]

Oooh, so pretty - my fav. color too! I want one! :p

Emily

[emily_in_nc]

Oooh, so pretty - my fav. color too! I want one! :p

Emily

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Beautiful bike---enjoy it!!!

[caligurl]

In the end I got a bike that feels great AND found a LBS where I feel comfortable .

the two most important things! you've got to love your bike and you've got to at least like and trust your lbs! we drive an hour to our lbs... cuz the worthless local guy... is... well... worthless! lol!

as for my current lbs... LOVE LOVE LOVE them! (and they put up with me when i was so impatiently waiting for ruby to be released and arrive last winter! :rolleyes: )

[midgetcycler]

Riding by, taking the bike into the shop -- I don't think it's going to make a bit of difference. The initial conversation happened on the phone. I don't recall seeing that she ever went into the store and actually met the guy...

Karen in Boise

yes, but I'm the type of person that would take my bike in, introduce myself as the person on the phone that he tried to talk out of the WSD bike, and proceed to tell him what an idiot he was for doing that, since he lost out on a sale and a potential customer for gear, etc. And then I might tell him he might think about what his customers want rather than shove his own opinions down people's throats. He might make more sales that way!

[wannaduacentury]

Congrats on the new bike Floridagirl- a like that shade of Blue :)

[Bad JuJu]

Gorge-o-licious new bike, from one Florida gal to another! I'm wishing you many happy miles together.:)

[Kano]

yes, but I'm the type of person that would take my bike in, introduce myself as the person on the phone that he tried to talk out of the WSD bike, and proceed to tell him what an idiot he was for doing that, since he lost out on a sale and a potential customer for gear, etc. And then I might tell him he might think about what his customers want rather than shove his own opinions down people's throats. He might make more sales that way!

Now what would make this ESPECIALLY fun would be if this cranky bike dealer also sells this same bike!

Karen in Boise

[7rider]

Nice wheels, Floridagal.
As my mom would always say "Ride it in good health." :cool:
And always key to get from an LBS you are comfortable with.
Your bike. Your needs.
FWIW, DH and I stopped by my LBS after work today to pick up DH's bike which needed some headset and BB work.
Lo and behold, what's up on the rack but a brandy-spankin' new Trek Pilot 5.0? I asked one of the guys about it, said "I thought you guys didn't carry the Pilot?". He said for '07 they totally re-designed the front end and dropped a whole lot of weight from the line, so it's now a MUCH better bike.
Hmmm.....ok.
So there it is. Turnaround at the LBS.
As I said...for whatever THAT's worth!

[mimitabby]

oh, that's funny. made that boy eat his words! at least it looks like that.