OT - moving daughter up a grade - opinions?

[DrBee]

This is majorly OT, but thought I'd post it here to get a wide point of view from TE...

As some of you know - I'm switching jobs and moving to Louisiana. My daughter (FishJr) is currently in 4K. She is having fun, but is bored and dissappointed because she says she isn't learning anything. She is doing math (addition and some subtraction), can write all of her letters, her name, and numerous other words, etc. She's mature for her age (emotionally and intellectually) and her teacher suggested that we put her in Kindergarten when we move.

I know we have some teachers here and others with opinions. What do you think? Is there any benefit to advancing a child a grade at this age? I've looked at the curriculum for the school that she will attend and she's already doing what they are supposed to accomplish in the first quarter of Kindergarten and some of the second quarter as well.

We've talked with her about it and she says she want to make the jump to K. I don't want to put too much pressure on her.

[mimitabby]

what is 4K?

[DrBee]

4-year old Kindergarten. They learn letters, colors, numbers, days of the week, etc. It's 4K/Pre-K, but is a full day at elementary school, not a daycare center.

[Haudlady]

Disclaimer - I'm not a Mom!

I would contact the school at your new town, and see if you can talk it over with the kindergarden teacher there. That teacher may have an opinion!

My niece is three, and is very verbal and smart (I swear it's not just my bias!)... she is in daycare a few days each week, and they moved her in with the four-year-olds because she didn't want to have to keep playing with the "babies."

Obviously - this is your kid, so you need to make the decision. I was the youngest in my class all through school, and it was fine... I didn't feel any problems or differences developmentally compared to the older kids in my grade.

Good luck!

[mimitabby]

I'm not a teacher, I'm a mom. I think the maturity level is the most important
thing. My two sons were very bright, but very immature. My older son was
on the cusp, could have gone to school with the older group, but we decided against it, and it was a good thing. (we could have kept him out of school
until he was 10 and it would have been a good thing) but i digress.
If she's mature, doesn't mind being the littlest, and the teacher is cool with it; it's a great idea. That was my personal experience, (being the youngest
and smallest in my own school experience) and i don't think it hurt me a bit (it was good for my ego, instead!)

mimi

[spokewench]

My sister skipped 5th grade and later when on to college at the age of 16. She loved books, school, learning and is now a professor. It worked for her great!

On the other hand, my 5th grade teacher told my parents that I should skip 5th grade. My parents and my teacher asked me and since I love sports, people, social stuff, etc., I did not want to skip a grade. I did not skip and it worked out for me.

So, I think it really depends on the child, the child's likes and wants, the level of boredom, and WHAT THE CHILD WANTS>

I know she is really young, but ask her!

[Bluetree]

I would definitely recommend it at that age. I do not have any children, but I did skip a grade (2nd), went to school with other gifted children, and had a BF who skipped THREE grades.

When I was moved up I felt lost at first. It wasn't because of the lessons -- those were simple -- it was leaving all the peers with whom I had grown up. It wasn't like moving away and not seeing them anymore. It was moving to the next classroom and being forced to make new friends when your old ones are just yards away. In your daughter's case, she doesn't have this issue, so I say go for it.

Regardless of how tough it can be, I don't like the idea of holding kids back. One of the traits I noticed with bright kids who were restricted to their age level is a sense of arrogance and entitlement. They KNOW they are quicker than their peers and unless they are continually challenged, their boredom could have less positive results. And yes, I speak from experience.

I recall being an obnoxious little turd until I was put in my proper place. Luckily, I had excellent teachers and counselors thoughout my pre-collegiate education who looked out for me and challenged me at every turn.

[pooks]

My birthday is in November and I couldn't start public school until I was six. So my parents sent me to private school for kindergarten and first grade. I was six when I entered 2nd grade in public schools.

My son has an October birthday so the same thing applied. We sent him to preschool and then kindergarten. At the end of kindergarten the teacher and principal met with us to discuss whether or not he should go into first grade or repeat Kindergarten.

He was very intelligent -- the question was never about academics. He'd been somewhat immature earlier in the year and had matured toward the end of the year. They said they really couldn't advise us in one way or the other -- that if his immaturity had kept up they would definitely have advised us to have him repeat, but now we were kind of at an in between place.

But the principal told me something I've never forgotten. She said, "You'll never regret having your son be one of the oldest and most mature in his class. You may regret it if he's one of the youngest and least mature."

That slammed home, and we had him repeat.

We NEVER regretted it, even though we were immediately deluged with phone calls from moms who couldn't believe we were holding him back, because he was so far ahead of their own kids who were going into first grade. They kept telling us we shouldn't do it. But we did, and were glad.

Looking back on things, I think it's highly likely I would have done better if I'd waited to start school instead of going early. I know of ways my own maturity (or lack of it) put me in some situations that I wouldn't have gotten in with a year's more experience under my belt.

If it were me, I'd be looking for ways to stimulate my daughter's intellect (in or out of class) without moving her ahead a year. By the time you're a teenager, there are enough challenges out there without adding being younger than your peers to them.

[DrBee]

Thanks for the advice! I knew I'd get a good response from TE, as usual.

We have talked it over with daughter. She keeps telling me that she wants to learn to write more words (we do this in the afternoons) and she's constanstly adding things together. She's halfway through a Kindergarten Math workbook. So, yes, we give her plenty of stimulation at home.

I was always young for my grade and did well. Most of her friends are older than her.

The school will evaluate her to identify whether or not she is gifted. And - yes, of course, we will talk with the teachers.

She'll do fine, regardless. She's already bored and school has only been in session for 3 weeks! This is my concern. She calls it "play class".

[mimitabby]

Well, sounds like the daughter is willing.
I think there's a huge difference between boys and girls.
I don't think you'll regret moving her up, but do heed
what others said here, she will still tend to be bored even if she skips a grade or two and you will have to keep her interests and challenges up at home (she can do bee experiments with you!)
:)

[PAP103]

My son (now 21) was the youngest in his class. His birthday is 8/31 which is the cutoff for our school system. He has excelled in school, sports and socially.

My friend's daughter skipped a grade and is the youngest in her peer group. At age 13 or 14 when with friends a whole year older, it can cause problems of 'growing up' too fast and/or trying and learning things at too young an age. She is now 16 with classmates 17 and 18. She expects to be able to have the priviledges of the 17/18 year olds. Needless to say, her mom is having problems with her. But she has done great academically.

Tough decision, I'm sure. Good luck with it!

[Bluetree]

She keeps telling me that she wants to learn to write more words (we do this in the afternoons) and she's constanstly adding things together. She's halfway through a Kindergarten Math workbook. So, yes, we give her plenty of stimulation at home.

That's so funny! I used to beg my older brother (by 3 years) to let me do his math homework. He thought it a chore - I thought it was fun. Integers? Negative numbers? A whole new world! I used to do it secretly until Mommy caught on and put a stop to it. My brother got punished for "making" little sis do his homework, probably because she couldn't imagine anyone WANTING to do math of their own free will.

Yeah, I know, what a dork I was. Bro is still bitter. I ended up at math camp.

[Bikingmomof3]

Would you be moving this school year? If so, what is the policy/position of the school your daughter will be attending?

This is a very personal decision and you will most likely hear people voicing opinions for both sides.

I have taught school and I am a parent. I purposefully held all three of my boys back. They were all very advanced and to this day are. They are in middle school, all in gifted/advanced classes, and extremely well adjusted and secure. It was suggested my oldest skip a grade. I refused. As it stands he is a middle schooler taking HS classes, which will be on his college transcripts (even though he is a bright student, try explaining to a young teen just how important a transcript is). Here they allow certain 7th and 8th graders to take the SAT. My oldest was asked last year and we said no. He has plenty of time to take it when he is older. No harm was done. All three of my children are boys, and yes, boys are indeed different than girls, especially when it comes to maturity. Looking back, I would not change any decsion I made.

With all that said, it is a very personal choice, and not one to be taken lightly.

I do suggest you contact the schoool your daughter will be attending and find out what their policies are, if you have not already done so.

[Bad JuJu]

That's so funny! I used to beg my older brother (by 3 years) to let me do his math homework. He thought it a chore - I thought it was fun.
LOL, Bluetree. I have a similar childhood story. My twin brother and I had different teachers in our early grades, and his started giving homework before mine did, and I was soooooo envious that he got to do homework and I didn't. :rolleyes: What a little nerd I was, too! I bugged my mom about it so much that she started making up little assignments for me to do. Weird kid!

[margo49]

[QUOTE=pooks]But the principal told me something I've never forgotten. She said, "You'll never regret having your son be one of the oldest and most mature in his class. You may regret it if he's one of the youngest and least mature."

That slammed home, and we had him repeat.

We NEVER regretted it,


This was/is exactly my experience also with my elder son (now 19)

My mother would say also that she skipped my brother up a grade in the first or second year and she *always* regretted it till the day he died (and after I guess). He was both young and tiny even for his age. They put him "up" because he was not behaving because he was too smart and he continued not behaving because of his age and size. But it was the 60's in the suburbs and you didn't question the teacher

When I was a kid we were 3 very gifted girls together for 6 years. This was enough smart company . They had a regional group for gifteds at one stage on Saturdays,but basically that was an experiment and we all met up again in the intermediate (junior high) school the following year anyway.
I would periodically (later really menstrually!) tell my parents I was wasting my time with these thicko idiots and their response was " Look, you have to get on with all sorts of people so start learning to get on with them now." Which I think was good in retrospect because I had a good self image untainted by elitism or special treatment. I would also say that being in school is much more than just getting knowledge and grades .

I think that as long as you *can* do what everybody else does you should;because if (when!) the day comes that you can't "They" are more tolerant of your "deviance" than if you have been a "weirdo" all thru. (Voice of experience!)

I would wait and see if there are a few other smart-ies in her new class.

[slinkedog]

We are in the same situation... our daughter is 4 and will be 5 in November. We could send her to K this year, but opted for an academic Jr. K program at a nearby preschool.

I initially (beginning of last school year) had thought she would do fine going to K this year, but after helping in my son's K class, I started to see how the children (especially the girls) interacted with one another and how quickly things got quite competetive. It was a real eye-opener and made us decide that giving our daughter another year of childhood would be a good thing. :)

I see my teenaged daughter (who is now 15 and a sophomore) having to make tough choices many times, and it makes me even more glad that we are deciding to hold the little one back a year. Knowing that she will have another year of critical thinking and decision-making skills under her belt when she has to face peer-pressure stuff is a good thing, imho.

[Trekhawk]

This is majorly OT, but thought I'd post it here to get a wide point of view from TE...

As some of you know - I'm switching jobs and moving to Louisiana. My daughter (FishJr) is currently in 4K. She is having fun, but is bored and dissappointed because she says she isn't learning anything. She is doing math (addition and some subtraction), can write all of her letters, her name, and numerous other words, etc. She's mature for her age (emotionally and intellectually) and her teacher suggested that we put her in Kindergarten when we move.

I know we have some teachers here and others with opinions. What do you think? Is there any benefit to advancing a child a grade at this age? I've looked at the curriculum for the school that she will attend and she's already doing what they are supposed to accomplish in the first quarter of Kindergarten and some of the second quarter as well.

We've talked with her about it and she says she want to make the jump to K. I don't want to put too much pressure on her.

Oh the joys of moving. I think sorting out the school issue is the thing I hate most about moving. Different places different grades etc etc. Anyway that aside when we moved to the USA from Aust we were a little unsure of how our boys would get on at school. Our school year runs from Feb to Dec so coming half way thru the USA school year meant either the boys going forward or back six months we elected for them to move forward. This was probably the biggest leap for my middle boy who went straight from Preschool to half way thru Kindergarten. My boys are doing really well and have had no problems. That being said when we return to Aust we will again be in the same predicament. Do we go up six months again which will make them a full year ahead of their peers in Aust or put them back into the grade they would be in if we stayed in Australia. My husband and I have opted for returning them to the grade they would be in if we stayed in Aust which means they will really be repeating six months of school. For boys I think maturity, size etc can all be an issue.

Talk to the schools but you as parents know your child the best. Most good schools will know this and work with parents to achieve what is best for your child. Being bored in class is not good for kids and perhaps the challenge of a higher grade is what she needs.

Good Luck:)

[MomOnBike]

Note the pattern here. Mostly the mothers of girls had positive experiences moving their kids forward, and mothers of boys didn't. This is my observation in meat space as well.

Sadly, I fear that little boys don't mature as quickly as girls.

My experince:

Elder Daughter (still the smartest individual I know) did not have any gifted/talented programs available in the small town we lived in. So she skipped 2nd grade. There were a few social problems later - a more assertive individual wouldn't have noticed probably, but all in all, it was a good choice. When the school tried to advance her again I resisted. That was just too much of an age diff.

Younger Daughter was a late August baby & the cutoff for letting her into school was (I think) May. She was reading at a 3rd grade level and doing division before she went to school. I fought to get her into Kindergarten "early." I won. She just started at Cornell a few weeks ago. Again, there were a few problems in High School, but I think there would have been far more if she'd been held back. She tends to need a challange.

So, my advice? Get your kid in a class that challanges her. I think she's ready.

[salsabike]

I am not a parent but am a school psych. I agree with Mimitabby, Margo and others on this one. The thing is, Fish, that even skipping one grade may not be enough for FishJr. There is a wide range of skills in any one classroom, and she may always outstrip the curriculum and need enrichment. Many teachers love to give that, and you'll always be doing it too. Skipping a year might work great for her--and I'd do it for a girl sooner than for a boy, since it does seem to work better for girls--just know that she may catch up to THAT curriculum too, and after that the enrichment from school and home will still be needed to fill in the gaps.

BTW, Fish, congrats on the job!

[Bluetree]

When the school tried to advance her again I resisted. That was just too much of an age diff.

Absolutely agree, MOB. I skipped 2nd, and was up for promotion again in the 5th grade, but my parents said no. I never spoke up against it (I didn't want to sound like a coward) but I really didn't want to leave all my friends again. I was so grateful that they refused.

But that didn't help my academic situation. When I was in school (1970s, early 80s), there weren't many alternatives to skipping grades until high school, where AP classes were offered. I was enrolled in some extracurricular classes prior to that, but they didn't help ease the boredom of my required classes. When I said I was fortunate to have supportive teachers, I mean to say they went above and beyond their normal course of duties.

One teacher in particular skirted some regulations to help me through middle school. When she realized that the history lessons were not up to snuff, she gave me three months to learn the entire textbook and pass the final. The remainder of the year was spent under her tutelage in independent study (I wrote a paper on a famous artist who concealed secret messages in his abstract art to get nazi info to the Allies).
When this teacher caught me teasing a classmate for not catching on to something, she made me tutor that same student for the entire semester. I'll never forget her words when she caught me teasing that other girl, "You were given great gifts. That means you have a great responsibility. Don't make me wrong about you." Imagine a very large and angry black woman saying this through clenched teeth, getting right into the face of a cocky adololescent. I miss her.

Sorry to go so Off-Topic, but this thread really digs up some memories...

[DrBee]

Thanks so much for all of your thoughts on this. We keep going back and forth. We are going to have her evaluated by the school (as is required, of course) and go from there. We are going to talk with the school/teacher when we go on the house hunting trip. I have confidence in her in that she will do well in whatever grade she is in. We are talking with her about this as much as we can without putting pressure on her.

Wish us luck!

[DrBee]

The school system does have a good gifted program, too.

[GulfCoastSwim]

Do it! I was skipped ahead as a kid and it kept me from being bored in school. One year really doesn't make that much difference if she's mature, but I might hesistate at more than that.

[tygab]

I went to a gifted HS and the "normal" entry was to skip a grade when coming in (at 8th grade essentially). All my sibs did this (2 older, 1 younger). I did not. Now don't get me wrong, they are all very happy, successful, socially adjusted adults, but where it seemed to make a difference (to my view) was upon entering college. Being so young in college seemed to put some strains on them that I'm not even sure I could articulate - I just could feel it was something harder for them.

In my case, I didn't skip the grade, and I also took a year before college, which I spent in France, attending French HS and living with a family. So I was an 'old' freshman, and I loved having a more mature outlook that had come from both age and having already been away from home on my own in a different country.

So, I lean toward the earlier sentiment that it never seemed a disadvantage to be the older one, but it could hurt to be the youngest one.

[Geonz]

I started school early and dropped out a year early to go to college.

16 **is** young to be in college (tho' really it was the best option for me). In hindsight, I might have done better to do something else to figure out myself and the world, before heading off to college to do academic stuff. And, at one point (eighth grade), we considered having me stay back a year to mature.

Research bears out the experiences here: for girls, it is socially much less comfortable & healthy to be the most mature one in the class; for boys, it is more stressful to be late maturing. (Think abotu what it's like to have a full figure in fourth grade... the comments... etc... I would have were I not younger...)

If you're moving anyway, a lot of issues won't be issues.

[winddance]

I was one of these kids. I started kindergarten at 4, and then later skipped 8th grade. This put me in college at the ripe old age of 16 as well. I still stand by that, even though I am now wishing I'd taken a bit of time to smell the roses before entering college.

I was a royal terror in pre-school, until one day I wandered over to the older-kid table and they realized that I was bored to tears. I was maybe 2.5 or 3 at the time, but this prompted my parents to get me tested to enter kindergarten early when the time came. I was accepted, and went, and I really do not think it made one bit of difference. I definitely think that I enjoyed school more because I was actively engaged and learning.

Skipping 8th grade was a different matter for me. In retrospect, I still would have done it, because academics have always been more important to me than having a social life, but I really felt out of place in high school and I haven't felt quite right since. I really don't know that I noticed the social aspect of school up until middle school, so I wouldn't say that was an issue for me when starting kindergarten early.

[Duck on Wheels]

... Most of her friends are older than her...

For me that's an important point. I skipped 3rd, but was socially clueless and physically clumsy. Didn't know how to jump in when skipping long rope (which was a big thing in the 4th grade, but not yet in 3rd), couldn't play any of the team games well, was shy, too competitive academically etc. etc. So I wound up being more or less friendless until college. My brother skipped 5th that same year, but he was much better at making friends (including by hiding how good he was academically -- not even the teachers knew and my folks had to insist that either both of us skipped or neither; he's now a philosophy professor). But if FishJr is good at making friends, including with kids older than herself, I'd say go for it. Especially at this stage, i.e. pre-school and in connection with a move. Being openly bored by school might be understood by other kids as being show-offish (I now know I was seen that way in grades 1 and 2, though in Kindergarden the kids valued that I could read books to them in free play time), in which case she might fit in better by starting off with kids who are reading etc. more or less at her level.

[DirtDiva]

An interesting discussion for a primary teacher to wade into!

Skipping and repeating years doesn't happen that often in NZ, which has a lot to do with how the curriculum and schools are structured. Particularly at smaller schools and particularly at the earlier year levels there are a lot of composite classes (for example, I taught a Year 7/8 class last week and a Year 1/2 class today). It goes without saying, really, that you never ever find that all the most academically able children are the oldest and all the least academically able children are the youngest, you never ever find that all the most physically able children are the oldest and all the least physically able children are the youngest, you never ever find that all the most socially able children are the oldest and all the least socially able children are the youngest, etc., etc., etc. Personally, I really like teaching composite classes (the NZ curriculum is plenty flexible enough to accomodate them).

As for FishJr, I have no expertise in early childhood education, so feel free to take what I say with as large a grain of salt as you wish, but if she's bright enough to consider moving up a year at this stage, she'll always be prone to boredom at school; regardless of your decision, the most important thing is that you investigate what will be provided for gifted and talented students on a day-to-day, in-classroom basis as this will have the greatest impact on her enjoyment of learning in the school environment.

In a way, it's easier to deal with at secondary level. If I child excels at maths and science, they can skip levels in those subjects and remain with their peers in others. My quite strongly held opinion is that at any level, a teacher should be able to provide for the needs of each and every child in their class. Sure, it's difficult when a child has no natural academic peers, but it's yer freakin' job!!! :rolleyes:


I think I've babbled on enough for one night... :p

[Bluetree]

I started school early and dropped out a year early to go to college.

16 **is** young to be in college (tho' really it was the best option for me). In hindsight, I might have done better to do something else to figure out myself and the world, before heading off to college to do academic stuff. And, at one point (eighth grade), we considered having me stay back a year to mature.

Research bears out the experiences here: for girls, it is socially much less comfortable & healthy to be the most mature one in the class; for boys, it is more stressful to be late maturing. (Think abotu what it's like to have a full figure in fourth grade... the comments... etc... I would have were I not younger...)

The Ex skipped three grades, making him a just-turned 15-year-old in college. I don't know what he would be like had he stayed the regular course, but I could see personality traits that made me wonder...

He always seemed to have a chip on his shoulder. He was tall and good looking, yet he seemed to have a Napoleonic Complex.

He was completely unable to make small talk and never knew how to relax and "go with the flow."

He had difficulty making friends. When he met new people, he didn't see them as potential friends, but as potential rivals.

He was successful, but never successful enough. To him, being extremely successful + unhappy was better than being moderately successful + happy.

He had difficulty seeing women as human beings. He never answered my question when I asked him when he had his first date. That said, he had the requisite trophy wife/model when he made his first million.

He was the smartest person I had ever met. But I couldn't help but see a very sad and lonely child. I probably understood him better than anyone had in his life, but he was ultimately too messed up to have a stable relationship.

[Crankin]

This is a difficult issue. I've been a teacher for 30 years and most of the time we recommend not to move up or down a grade (repeat). It sounds like academically, your daughter should go to K. She also seems to do well socially, so there shouldn't be any issues. I think the issues that come up in these situations are further in the future. I'm a middle school teacher and there IS a difference when you are 10 in 6th grade and everyone else is 11 and 12. I teach in a school that has a progressive and challenging curriculum, so we meet the needs of a wide range of abilities. I've had some extremely bright kids who did not skip a grade and now are flourishing in HS, with all kinds of advanced classes and activities, college courses, etc. The thing is that your peers and social life are probably the most important thing in grades 5-8. This is just a developmental thing. Even the smartest well adjusted kid often tries to "hide" their giftedness, so as not to appear different. This isn't necessarily good, or the thing that should make your decision, but you could have an ugly 2-4 years just because your daughter is less physically developed and has different interests than the majority of her peers. A good school will deal with this, but it might be good to think of this when you are making your decision.

[pooks]

I've had some extremely bright kids who did not skip a grade and now are flourishing in HS, with all kinds of advanced classes and activities, college courses, etc.

I think this is important to recognize -- schools today offer so much more than the schools most of us went to.

And as others have pointed out, even if your daughter gets temporary improvement by skipping forward right now, if she's truly gifted she may end up unchallenged later anyway. Combine feeling unchallenged and not fitting in academically AND due to her age, and you may have doublt trouble.

Or there's the other (possibly more likely) possibility. She could end up in gifted classes, younger than others who are just as smart as she is.

I'm not at all sure that just because a four-year-old likes older friends translates to a 14-year-old having 16-year-olds as her peers, and not having any probs.

Only you can make the decision, of course. And you're getting really good feedback from people who have had experience in all directions, and people with different opinions.

This is a great forum, isn't it?

[massbikebabe]

It had been requested that both my kids skip grades and both times I said no.
For it is easy to see them ahead of the game now, what is going to happen on the other end say college?? My little guy would have been a 16 year old freshman!!! My advice is have the teachers and/or teachers aides work with your kid and let them mature right along with the rest of the class. You won't be sorry, I'm not, mine is a college freshman right now and her brother is a high school freshman.


karen

[laughlaugh18]

My brother skipped 5th that same year, but he was much better at making friends (including by hiding how good he was academically -- not even the teachers knew and my folks had to insist that either both of us skipped or neither; . . .

And sometimes even the parents are clueless. When the school system told my parents my older brother was gifted, no big shock. When I tested in 1st grade even higher than my brother, my mom was surprised. I still have the envelope with the test results on which she wrote: "Cathy is very, very bright!!" (notice the exclamation points :rolleyes:) At that age I wasn't hiding it; I just had a more gregarious personality. My mom said she knew I was bright, just not that bright . . .

I did alot of skipping and was another 13 year old high school student and 16 year old college freshman. Outwardly I handled it well (much praise for how mature I was), but looking back I realize I hid myself from alot of social stuff cuz I just wasn't ready for it. Skipping may be fine in the lower grades, but I've come to believe that it's really important developmentally to be the same age as your peer group when you're a teenager and college student.

[pooks]

Outwardly I handled it well (much praise for how mature I was), but looking back I realize I hid myself from alot of social stuff cuz I just wasn't ready for it.

My niece, the "life of the party," took a Myers-Briggs test and showed to be an introvert. We all said there had to be a mistake, but she said, "You see how I act. This shows how I feel."

Even her own mother was stunned. So much as we'd like to think different, moms don't always know their kids as well as they think they do.

As a 14-year-old sophomore, I recall taking some antibiotics with my lunch. (Before such things had to be taken through the clinic.) A senior guy sitting at our table asked what I was taking and I joked, "Birth control pills," and laughed because in my world/experience, no high school girl would be taking the PILL, for God's sake. Clearly anybody would know that was a joke.

I didn't realize that one of my closest friends (sitting at the table with me, and a couple of years older than me, though only one grade ahead) was sexually active.

I also didn't realize that the guy believed me until a few months later when he stopped me in the hall and asked if I was still on the pill, and I didn't even remember what he was talking about or why he would ask such a stupid question until a few hours later.

And I also didn't realize until the next year that I had a "reputation" in some circles, even though people who really knew me, knew better.

Hello, high school!

[winddance]

You know, it almost makes me feel better to know that I wasn't the only one who had these issues. Looking back on the experience, I really don't think I would've noticed had I been 17 and everyone else 18, because that age difference could be measured in months. Two years was a lot, though.

When you're a young adult you begin to pass milestones (learner's permit, drivers license, first job, 18th birthday, legal drinking age) and you're two years behind your peers...that creates a lot of social tension. I always needed a ride, because I didn't have my license. I would be invited out while in college, and would have to explain that I wouldn't turn 21 until after I had graduated.

If anything made me feel out of place, this was it.

[mimitabby]

The Ex skipped three grades, making him a just-turned 15-year-old in college. I don't know what he would be like had he stayed the regular course, but I could see personality traits that made me wonder...

He always seemed to have a chip on his shoulder. He was tall and good looking, yet he seemed to have a Napoleonic Complex.

He was completely unable to make small talk and never knew how to relax and "go with the flow."

He had difficulty making friends. When he met new people, he didn't see them as potential friends, but as potential rivals.

He was successful, but never successful enough. To him, being extremely successful + unhappy was better than being moderately successful + happy.

He had difficulty seeing women as human beings. He never answered my question when I asked him when he had his first date. That said, he had the requisite trophy wife/model when he made his first million.

He was the smartest person I had ever met. But I couldn't help but see a very sad and lonely child. I probably understood him better than anyone had in his life, but he was ultimately too messed up to have a stable relationship.
Hey Bluetree,
was your ex an only child too?

[Kitsune06]

This is majorly OT, but thought I'd post it here to get a wide point of view from TE...

As some of you know - I'm switching jobs and moving to Louisiana. My daughter (FishJr) is currently in 4K. She is having fun, but is bored and dissappointed because she says she isn't learning anything. She is doing math (addition and some subtraction), can write all of her letters, her name, and numerous other words, etc. She's mature for her age (emotionally and intellectually) and her teacher suggested that we put her in Kindergarten when we move.

I have no real education on the matter but my own experience, but because both my sister and I were reading/writing when we went into Kindergarten (no Pre-K yet where we were) we were both really bored, and out of that boredom and the awkwardness of being so advanced for our ages, other things developed. I got anxiety disorder and had panic attacks when I wasn't getting some kind of challenge (it lessened when I had advanced classes on the side, medication, etc, and stopped much later in school) and my sister developed an anxiety problem probably more due to the kids in her class singling her out for getting the best grades and always knowing the answers... Both of us would've done well to have been advanced a grade or two especially early on, because it would've kept up with our learning abilties. We were kept where we were because we weren't 'socally skilled' enough to be advanced, which was unfair (I think) because the only people we identified with on an intellectual level were adults.

I would say that the jump from pre-k to K would be just fine for her. It's when you start thinking about 16 year olds in college (a friend of mine did that, and though he was quiet and lonely for the first couple of years, he really developed after getting the 'hang' of it. He was a software developer and not very socially gifted, anyway) that you start running into some problems, but every situation is unique.

[tygab]

Hey Bluetree,
was your ex an only child too?

Whoa, I read the earlier note and thought of someone I know. Add the the only comment which this person is.. what, is this a common thing?

[GulfCoastSwim]

I don't see what the problem is with being a young high school or college student. Most of the problems that you are describing as being "young student" problems really just sound like "gifted child" or "type-A" problems, or even just high school in general.

Granted, the age at which the kid skips the grade does make a difference...an elementary school skip is much easier to adapt to (socially) than a middle or high school skip. Likewise, one year is much different from a three-year difference in age.

I went to college right after I turned 17, but I had been ahead a grade since elementary school. I found out that, once you get to college, it doesn't really matter how old you are. It sounds like your child is mature enough to handle school and progress at a normal pace (just a year earlier than her age group). If she wants to do it, I say let her do it. After all, you can always pull her back down a grade if she has trouble keeping up.

[Bluetree]

Hey Bluetree,
was your ex an only child too?

Mimi, Tygab,
My Ex wasn't an only child but might as well have been. His brother/sister were more than 10 years older, plus he was sent away from home to prep schools since he was 12. With what parents/psychologists know about child development these days, I don't think people would do this anymore. Back then they just didn't know any better.

Side note: When some people bemoan the "good ol' days" they always seem to conveniently forget the amount of ignorance (and racism, sexism, homophobia etc) we had to overcome. We still have a long way to go, but Forums like this are so valuable in spreading information and understanding.

[donnambr]

I have to agree with Kitsune. I'm not a parent, but I was one of those kids who was incredibly bored in school, got viciously teased and shunned for knowing all the answers, and could not relate to kids my own age. Nearly all my friends were 2-4 years older than me. My grade school principal did not believe in double promotion and I was in the same Catholic school for 8 years, and thus in the same unpleasant situation with the same classmates for all that time. Learning supplements at home just seemed to widen the gulf. I too developed terrible anxiety and a strong desire not to stand out or be noticed in any way. That took a very long time to get over, and I'm still pretty sensitive to even good-natured teasing. I'm not saying that double promotion works for all kids, but when emotional maturity is happening at the same rate as the intellectual advancement, I think it could work out for the better to just move up a grade.

[eclectic]

Best of luck deciding and now that school has pretty much started everywhere I assume you made the decision. Please let us know what you decided

I think this is one of the hardest choices a parent has to make because it can affect the child for the rest of their life

I too was a 17 year old college freshman, I thought I was very mature and could handle everything, I was unable to go home except for major holidays. I had a blast and luckily I was bright enough to get by more on my writing skills and brains than on my hardwork.

I found everything caught up with me when I graduated college and had to go out to the world of work - I student taught when I was 20 years old - barely older than some of the high school students.

To solve the problem I went back to school for another degree. Matured another year and was ready.

I have now been teaching for 22 years and have seen a lot of students grades
K thru 12 pass through my doors at one time or another. I have NEVER heard a parent say "I wish I had started him/her early but a lot say I wish I had waited"

After watching students behaviour in my classroom (not skill level) I can usually pick out the younger ones and when I check birthdays I am about 98% correct

Good schools have enrichment programs coordinated by specialists in the Gifted and Talented area, also I have seen students move up for certain subject areas such as math and reading but stay with their peers for everything else (just as some move down for some areas)

If a school or teacher is not flexible then I don't know what to advise you - I am fortunate in that I teach in a school system that is rated as one of the best in the nation

[Bluetree]

Research bears out the experiences here: for girls, it is socially much less comfortable & healthy to be the most mature one in the class; for boys, it is more stressful to be late maturing.

I am in agreement with you there, Sue. But I just found this study which contradicts, regarding delaying Kindergarten for summer-born children. Granted, it does not address the gifted child, but it does touch upon the various maturity levels of kids.

...The USC professor was first inspired to research this matter when he faced it as a parent.
“As my first child was about to enter kindergarten, I heard a lot from parents and school officials that children with summer birthdays, especially boys, would benefit from having a ‘year to grow’ before they start school,” Painter said. “This could give them an academic advantage and prevent them from falling behind.
“I decided that I would study this and find out if there were any academic differences in the long term,” he said. “But despite the fact that these children were a year older than their comparison group, they did not do any better.”

Delaying Kindergarten Has No Benefits
09/07/06
There are few advantages for children who wait a year to enter school, according to USC and Texas researchers.
http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12716.html

[mimitabby]

...The USC professor was first inspired to research this matter when he faced it as a parent.
“As my first child was about to enter kindergarten, I heard a lot from parents and school officials that children with summer birthdays, especially boys, would benefit from having a ‘year to grow’ before they start school,” Painter said. “This could give them an academic advantage and prevent them from falling behind.
“I decided that I would study this and find out if there were any academic differences in the long term,” he said. “But despite the fact that these children were a year older than their comparison group, they did not do any better.”

Delaying Kindergarten Has No Benefits
09/07/06
There are few advantages for children who wait a year to enter school, according to USC and Texas researchers.
http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12716.html

I read the article, and it's hard to argue with their findings, but gee whiz,
after forcing 2 boys through elementary school, I am totally convinced that there HAS to be a better way. Maybe it's different for girls, but right now
we're drugging a giant percentage of children (mostly boys) just so that they can endure the long long sits. Boys need to jump and run and kick and punch
and yell... In school all they are supposed to do is sit and be quiet. I guess
the drugs help this.
My poor sons had to do it all without the drugs. and they drove their teachers and me crazy.
I think they'd be better off to not go to traditional school before they were 10. they could be in "boot camp" or something like that first.
classes for boys under ten:
treeclimbing 101
bike riding
first aide
orienteering
sign language
building with sticks
karate
no sitting down until they are 10 years old.
ah, i can dream can't i?

[slinkedog]

I got the impression, from reading the article, that this is only talking about kids with summer birthdays... not kids who are still 4 when school starts.

Also, I found this closing comment interesting...

"School districts should consider the impact of redshirting as well, he said.

“While it may be an attractive option to encourage parents to hold off sending their ‘younger’ kids to kindergarten because the younger children are often a little more difficult to teach the more difficult academic concepts to, perhaps we should structure curriculum to be age appropriate.”

That statement tells me that most schools DON'T have their curriculum structured in a way to be age appropriate to the younger kids yet, which, again makes me glad we made the choice we did.

Also, this paragraph stood out for me:

Parents whose child has a summer birthday should just send him or her to kindergarten, Painter said. “If for some reason, they are unsuccessful in kindergarten, they are better off repeating kindergarten than simply having them start a year later and having them waste a year of their productive life.”

I watched in my son's kindergarten class, last year, the kids who were failing in the class and they were very cognizant of the fact that they were behind. I felt sorry for them because they often looked forlorn and confused. I also have an issue with "having them waste a year of their productive life." Not sure what's he's trying to say, but I see playing and being a little kid as a very productive and good thing!! :)

[mimitabby]

I got the impression, from reading the article, that this is only talking about kids with summer birthdays... not kids who are still 4 when school starts.
I watched in my son's kindergarten class, last year, the kids who were failing in the class and they were very cognizant of the fact that they were behind. I felt sorry for them because they often looked forlorn and confused. I also have an issue with "having them waste a year of their productive life." Not sure what's he's trying to say, but I see playing and being a little kid as a very productive and good thing!! :)

exactlly! that's what small children should be doing. PLAYING!

[DrBee]

Thanks to you all for the comments.

We're still mulling this one over. I can see benefits of both grades. My daughter now says repeatedly that she wants to go to 5K (Kindergarten). We had pretty much decided to keep her in 4k. Aargh. We head to BR for a house hunting trip at the end of next week. We're going to go to the school and discuss the situation with them. She's very mature (socially, too) for her age. As I've said before, I think she could handle it. Something still is keeping me from going forward though. I wish I could place it. We still have a month or so to agonize over it, so if you care to discuss it further, I'll listen.

[MomOnBike]

Something still is keeping me from going forward though. I wish I could place it.

Then maybe you shouldn't. You get in less trouble if you listen to yourself, even if you don't know the 'whys.'

Eventually you'll figure it out.

[Kitsune06]

Mimi-
Do you think it'd be to your and your sons' benefit to home-school, then, until they're old enough to endure the long periods of quiet studying?

I'm just really curious because I've never really seen much home schooling, and childrens' development seems so fragile in some ways. You'd want proper academic growth and foundation, but also to make sure your kids were developing socially the way they would in regular public (or private) school...

The only home-schooled kids I know of were home-schooled in very, uh, restrictive and conservative households. Both girls were introduced to Public High School Freshman year. One was a total outcast, completely socially inept, but admirably stuck with it, and her little sister freaked out after 6 or so months and had to go back to home schooling.

I personally believe in the benefit of spending a lot of time with one's kids, but I can't pretend I'd know the first thing about actually raising kids...

[donnambr]

Thanks to you all for the comments.

We're still mulling this one over. I can see benefits of both grades. My daughter now says repeatedly that she wants to go to 5K (Kindergarten). We had pretty much decided to keep her in 4k. Aargh. We head to BR for a house hunting trip at the end of next week. We're going to go to the school and discuss the situation with them. She's very mature (socially, too) for her age. As I've said before, I think she could handle it. Something still is keeping me from going forward though. I wish I could place it. We still have a month or so to agonize over it, so if you care to discuss it further, I'll listen.

Well, she's a good age if you decide to. Worst comes to worst, she does kindergarten twice. That's not so bad.