Expensive BrightRoom Event Photos

[KnottedYet]

It's $50 to order a CD with the 10 or so pictures of me (some not so good) taken by the photographers at my tri. Kinda pricey, but the only photos of me "in action".

Has anyone had any experience with ordering these? Any regrets?

[Kitsune06]

I'll probably get booed and hissed, but because the only thing I used my photos for was to show mom 'n pop at home, and a few friends, I just grabbed my pics off the site and used Photoshop to take the little copyright bands off them. I know, I'm bad, but Im' not using it for my personal gain... just to keep for myself.:rolleyes:

[Aggie_Ama]

I have never bought them. Both years we did the MS150 I thought it was outrageous. This year they got some good shots of the both of us, but I can't justify the ridiculous expense.

[DeniseGoldberg]

I'll probably get booed and hissed, but because the only thing I used my photos for was to show mom 'n pop at home, and a few friends, I just grabbed my pics off the site and used Photoshop to take the little copyright bands off them. I know, I'm bad, but Im' not using it for my personal gain... just to keep for myself.:rolleyes:
Yup, I'm one of the folks who will give you a hard time for this. I agree that the prices that are on these photos may be a bit high - but grabbing the photos off the web (without paying for them) is really a form of theft.

I publish my own photos on the web, and while I'm not a professional photographer the thought of people saving these photos locally really bothers me. (Reminder to self: I guess I really do need to upgrade my photo site to disallow right-click saves, although I'm well aware that folks could still use screen capture tools.)

--- Denise

[SadieKate]

Sorry, I'm with the Denise. Those photographers aren't there as volunteers. They are professionals with very expensive cameras, lenses, timing equipment and computers. It takes skill, knowledge and labor to take the photos, to organize and deliver them. It is a product/service just like anything your own companies sell. If you don't pay for the photo this time, they won't be there the next time or they'll raise their prices just like stores that have to price their items high enough to cover loss from shoplifting. Or bookstores having to cover loss from damaged books and magazines because people use them like a library.

BTW, I bought two prints and a CD at this year's Party Pardee. I've enjoyed having them because there are so few good photos of either of us on road bikes. Not all of us have a Thom in our lives (Veronica's hubby).

[Veronica]

That's actually pretty cheap. The going rate is about $20 for an 8 x 10 print, so to get a CD that you can make as many prints up as you want is a good deal.

Camera gear is not cheap. Thom's gear purchased new was about $10,000! And he's not a pro. They often have multiple camera bodies, costing between $1000 and $3000 each. Not to mention their time. And it's not just shooting time, it's also the time to process. And they need to make enough off a weekend's shooting to pay the bills.

It's hard to make money as a photographer. I know I'm biased, but I think Thom is good enough to be a pro - but we couldn't afford it.

V.

PS Taking them off a photographer's website is stealing.

We've found our stuff in some odd places. That's why the tandemhearts logo is so huge.

[Bluetree]

I don't mean lecture anyone about what you should or should not do... I just want to explain the situation here.

A big part of my work as an artist deals with copyrights. Because of my subject matter and background, I am also an accredited sports photographer and personally know many professional photographers. So this is a subject matter I'm pretty familiar with.

A freelance photographer is in a tough situation... equipment is expensive and it is a constant cost... technology is expanding so fast that anyone who is serious has to keep up with the latest innovations. Those prices can be astronomical because photographers cannot wait until the photo market corrects and prices come down. And it's not just the camera equipment. Clients demands may require satellite hookups, instaneous downloads, faster computers, etc. (I have a $3000 camera that is about a year and a half old... and I feel antiquated in comparison.) All those expenses are passed on to the customer and, simply put, helps to put food on the table. If people stop paying for the service, the service goes away because they cannot stay in business. Sometimes, it's their own fault because, as you say, the quality is subpar. Sometimes, it's because they cannot sell enough because it's much easier for people to take it for free.

Regardless of whether the photos are worth the money, copyright violation is a scurge that I am fighting all the time. I work hard (60-80 hours a week), I went to a prestigious art school on a scholarship after studying myself to exhaustion in high school. In some instances I have sacrificed relationships, my health and peace of mind for my work. I've spent dreary afternoons in the rain waiting for that one shot, bitten by rouge horses, and scrimped and saved for that one lens, or that roll of $800 linen, or whatever. I've had to slog through 10-page contracts regarding permissions and releases and have had to pay my attorney just to make sure all my dealings are completely legal.

So you can imagine how I must feel when people "take" my stuff without permission and use it for whatever reason. They may think they are flattering me, when instead I see it as a disregard (or ignorance) of all the effort I put into it. It is my WORK, just like an accountant, a fireman or a bank teller works. A musician "works" to make songs, and illegal downloads make sure he/she stays poor he may not be able to work anymore. And a photographer "works" to make pictures, good or bad.

Perhaps I am a bit sensitive about this, and people may say that it doesn't hurt anyone, since they wouldn't pay anyway. Well, imagine putting all your time and effort into writing a paper or thesis. You turn it in and get an "A". You later find out that someone else downloaded it illegally and used it in another class to get an A. It doesn't affect your "A" at all. But it doesn't feel so good, does it?

Sorry for going on so long.

[caligurl]

I'll probably get booed and hissed, but because the only thing I used my photos for was to show mom 'n pop at home, and a few friends, I just grabbed my pics off the site and used Photoshop to take the little copyright bands off them. I know, I'm bad, but Im' not using it for my personal gain... just to keep for myself.:rolleyes:


yep.... still wrong... still ILLEGAL!

soooooo if you leave your bike outside.... and someone takes it to use just for themselves... NOT for personal gain... (they aren't going to sell it)... it's ok in your book?

[KnottedYet]

I'm not saying I want to snag the photos from the web (I don't know how, anyway.) I'm just asking if people have bought the CD's before, and if they were glad they did. Or if they didn't buy the CD's and wished they had.

I'm inclined to buy the CD, just because it was my first tri and I do want some pictures. There are a couple that I like. One is not of me (someone with a similar bib #, but not me). A couple are very out of focus and a couple are very over exposed.

I read the legal info on the BrightRoom site yesterday, and if I buy the CD I can make all the prints I want, post 'em on the internet, create Christmas cards, make avatars; whatever I want as long as I don't sell them.

Just want to know if anyone has bought the CD from their event, and if they are glad they did. I have until Oct 29 to get it without extra "archive" charge.

(There are a lot of artists in my life. I'm aware of copyright issues.)

[caligurl]

our posts weren't meant for you knotted... they were meant for kitsune who did snag them and altered them taking off the copywrite info!

[SadieKate]

You'll see that I did buy the CD and am glad. Can you get it cheaper with fewer pics? Or is it $50 with one or all photos?

[KnottedYet]

It's $50 regardless of the number of photos. I need to let them know that one belongs to someone else. Currently I'm wending my way through the "lost and found" for others of me. As long as I notify them of the L+F's that are mine, they will add them to the CD.

I'd like the CD because it seems like I could do more with the pics that way.

[SadieKate]

I agree. A friend of mine did the Tour de Tahoe with me a couple years ago. They got a spectacular shot of her above Emerald Bay. Of course, I look like a preggers pumpkin in mine because the wind went up under my wind vest at the crucial moment.

They had gorgeous 8x10 prints in folios at the end. A CD would have been nice so they could use it for other things, but the print from real film was just beautiful.

[Running Mommy]

Yeah knotted it, is steep, but then I figure that they had to go through all the pics and try to get them in order, publish them on the site, and then there is the cost of having the folks out there taking them, and the equip. etc. And of course they are there to make some $$ too. It is a service to you, and you have the choice to buy or not to buy (or steal I suppose, but that is just WRONG!:mad: ).
Personally I usually always cough up the dough. In fact at IMAZ I spent a TON on pics! Because I preordered them and paid 100 clams for the package, and then went back and ordered the cd- also 50 clams... But hey, it was my first IM, so I figured it was worth it.
And the good thing about the cd is you can make as many pics as you want.
So I say yeah, if you can afford it- go for it. You only do your first race once, and to have it documented on film is priceless. IMO- of course....
Denise

[roshelleuop]

Knotted,

I have purchased Bright Room photos before and yes, it was expensive but unless you are a photographer and are able to get all those shots, I think the money is worth it.

I was happy with what I received. I purchased a couple single pictures of my husband at a triathlon last year and it was cool becuase they printed the name of the triathlon, city, state, and date on the bottom of both pictures. I bought 2 6x9s and with shipping, etc. it cost me about $40, so I would strongly suggest if you are going to order, to order the whole CD. That way you can do whatever you want at your local walgreens. Plus, you have them online to post on TE!!!!!

Hope this helped!!!!

Roshelle from Milwaukee

[Lenusik]

It's $50 regardless of the number of photos. I need to let them know that one belongs to someone else. Currently I'm wending my way through the "lost and found" for others of me. As long as I notify them of the L+F's that are mine, they will add them to the CD.

I'd like the CD because it seems like I could do more with the pics that way.
Hi, KnottedYet
I would buy them especially because you can get any number for $50. Plus, you will get a better quality.
However, I totally undertand why people would like to get them off the Internet. I paid a stupid amount of money for my Tour de Phoenix photos. And I didn't even get a CD. It was a total rip off. And for what? To have someoen print a few shots. So, although I do not support geeting them off the internet, I also understand why it is done.

[Trek420]

I'm in the "art is intellectual property" fold. One of the reasons I don't post drawings, cartoons online is that for many artists while imitation may be the highest form of flattery, seeing your work used without permission is not flattering.

If I link a homepage or slideshow to my homepage (got tons of links to ALC'ers) I ask permission. We can seed the course with camera carrying friends at these events and or take pictures of each other but if the Pro has the shot of me I want, sure I'll pay.

S/he probably went to the same art school I did and that's expensive so should be able to recoup that cost. ;)

[DrBee]

I agree - snagging pics off the web is wrong. Kit - just put yourself in the shoes of the photographer and think about how it would make you feel.

[pooks]

I think it's safe to say Kit understands the reality of the photog biz now!

[Trek420]

Yes, I think this whole thing was not a crit of Kit or anyone else, more a poll of common attitudes.

Even the artists themselves have to deal with how they feel about and the extent they want to protect their work. For example there are drawings I don't mind if people "take" other pieces...not so much. :)

[Kitsune06]

Alright, alright. It's not 'okay'. For the record, When I do have $20 that's not going to be going toward gas or groceries, and something like that comes up, I do pay for it, because I do recognize the time and effort it takes for the photographers who are actually employed by businesses and have to take those kinds of numbers of shots for events, not that I necessarily in any way respect the exorbidant prices they feel they can charge people for a simple .jpg file or 3x5.

Yes, you have to recoup the costs of camera gear, and yes, it's rediculously expensive, but when you're looking at 6 professional photographers taking in excess of 4k shots each, of over 3k participants, then charging $6.50 for a 3x5 print (and $3 for every one after that) or $16 for a single high-res image on disc... Assuming that only half of the participants decided to purchase a single 3x5.
that's still $9,750. This isn't, of course, counting the photos professional groups like the sponsors will be purchasing.

I just have a problem with most photographers and their prices in general. I have an ex who was a photographer. He charged, generally, over $300 for a shot that honestly would have been very easy for pretty much anyone to get with a regular, bought-from-Walmart camera (they're getting pretty good now, a pro Nikon from 'back in the day' is your run of the mill $400 camera at Walmart or Target), had decent artistic merit but wasn't anything beyond what I'm capable of, and now that all of the work is digital, he didn't have to mess with dark rooms, chemicals, or the like. Just adjust the levels, highpass then soft light the highpass, and you're done... 30 minutes of work on a shot you took on your vacation, then charge someone who has too much money and too little sense $300+ for it. That is Theft.

Then again, I tried to sell my art once upon a time and failed miserably because I hate to take advantage of something I do well for money. So... I just post it online and let people take it.

[Veronica]

I don't think you really understand what's involved in getting a really great shot. Like this one, which I've seen on other sites and NO ONE has ever asked if they can use it. Just to get the shot took 8 hours.

http://www.tandemhearts.com/hawaii-04/lava/slides/h-04-lava-27.jpg

Good action photography isn't easy either. There's a lot of planning ahead to get a good location. You have to think about lighting and plan accordingly. You can't get a great shot of everyone.

http://www.tandemhearts.com/bike/dmd-2005/slides/17_after_sierra.jpg

Taking something from someone else because you think it's too epensive is theft. Would you walk into McDonalds and swipe a burger off the counter because you thought they were too expensive or you didn't have the money to pay for it?

Selling a product at whatever price you want is called the free market.

Veronica

[Kitsune06]

Of course, selling anything you want at whatever price you want is free market. Free market also implies that the public determines the price by not buying things that are deemed to expensive. Theft isn't necessarily factored into the decision of the price, given the basis of 'free market' is generally given to solid goods, not generally intellectual property.

FWIW, I bought the kreutz photography CD after fishing through my pictures to make it worthwhile, but I was just PO'd by how outrageously expensive it was. I can understand when individual photographers will charge a lot for some very nice, very (obviously) time-consuming or challenging shots, but some things just do not justify the amount of profit margin placed on them. I suppose my argument is a totally lost cause, but I feel artists should hold themselves to *some* moral obligation regarding their pricing.

BTW, Veronica, those ARE beautiful shots, and sometime when I have the funds, I'd like to talk about ordering a print. I just have a hard time when I *know* people aren't honest about the amount of 'work' or 'effort' or 'base cost' put in. The shots you produced, I can see easily going for +$200, given the quality and the lighting.

[Lise]

Veronica--what IS that first shot? It looks like meteors landing, or the dawn of the Earth, or something else fairly dangerous! It's also spectacularly beautiful. Thanks for sharing it with us.

I bought a bunch of pictures of me after the marathon. I do not have the FOGGIEST idea why I thought I'd need all those copies. I think I was still suffering from post-race stupidity syndrome. But if anyone would like a 5x7 glossy of me in the Chicago Marathon, I will gladly send you one! :p

I did order two 4x6 prints of the cool action shot of me on my bike from the most recent tri. One for me, one for Mom.

I agree that they're crazy expensive. But given that I tried to take a picture of my cats lying on the rug and it came out as a grey and orange blur...I can see why they charge what they can for the product. I could beg my friends to stand around and take pix of me, and they have in the past. But those high quality action shots are rare, in my experience. So, I buy a picture or two. Or, in the case of the marathon...10? :o

[chickwhorips]

first pictures looks like lava going into the ocean. beautiful pictures.

from being a model for a few years i know how hard it is to get a good shot, specially action and it to look good. i'm just happy that i never had to pay for any of those pictures that we did, i can use them as i please. had a friend that is a photographer and we just had fun doing them, but there was an unbelievable amount of work done on them. i think i would be hurt if someone took them for their gain, but i have shared some of them freely on the web. though i'm picky with the ones i share. suprisingly he never asked for his cut of my winning from a bikini shoot we did.... maybe i shouldn't say that to loud......

knotted if you want the pictures and you feel like you should have them for memory. no matter what the cost i think you should have them for yourself. to show off to everyone because we are so proud of you for doing it and i think everyone else should be proud too!

[DeniseGoldberg]

Just to get the shot took 8 hours.

Is that the Big Island (Hawaii)? Wherever it is, that photo is absolutely amazing.

--- Denise

[Veronica]

Hawaii - the Big island. Up at 1:30 to drive two hours, hike an hour over the lava field to get the shot of the lava hitting the ocean at dawn. Hike back, drive back... Do you know how heavy good camera equipment is? :D Or how hot lava is?

V.

[Bikingmomof3]

Hawaii - the Big island. Up at 1:30 to drive two hours, hike an hour over the lava field to get the shot of the lava hitting the ocean at dawn. Hike back, drive back... Do you know how heavy good camera equipment is? :D Or how hot lava is?

V.


The picture is spectacular! Thank you for sharing it. :-)

[Bluetree]

Yes, you have to recoup the costs of camera gear, and yes, it's rediculously expensive, but when you're looking at 6 professional photographers taking in excess of 4k shots each, of over 3k participants, then charging $6.50 for a 3x5 print (and $3 for every one after that) or $16 for a single high-res image on disc... Assuming that only half of the participants decided to purchase a single 3x5.
that's still $9,750. This isn't, of course, counting the photos professional groups like the sponsors will be purchasing.

Kitsune, $10,000 may seem like a lot of money for one afternoon's work, but that may be deceiving. There is more to it than that. A typical freelance photog does not do this every weekend. The rest of the month may be spent processing, organizing, mailing, web mastering, accounting etc. often in excess of the typical 40-hour week. If they do this once a month, that is a yearly net income of $120,000. Wow, cool.

But factor in taxes, advertising expenses, equipment/computer costs, postage, legal and business expenses, insurance, airfare and hotels, licensing rights... all of a sudden that income may be $30-40,000.
If a photog does this often, he/she will need a slew of employees to pay for, plus a lot more in travel expenses, workmans comp, facilities, etc.

Of the prof. sports photogs I know personally (about 10) not one of them leads an extravagant lifestyle or drives a Lexus. I know a few who show up in old, beat-up clothing, choosing that new lens over their own comfort. Very, very few make a grand living at it. The remaining 95% are just trying to make a living.

BTW, I'm not sure what the stats for photogs is, but for artists, there was a survey done a few years ago. Only 7% of fine artists with art degrees can make a living at it. It's not a business for the weak of heart. ;)

Veronica, those pics are awesome!

[Bluetree]

Good action photography isn't easy either. There's a lot of planning ahead to get a good location. You have to think about lighting and plan accordingly. You can't get a great shot of everyone.

You said it! I had to take a running shot of a particular horse. This picture may look easy, but it came only after going to the track on two separate occasions for racing, a number of visits for workouts and going over 100s of bad shots... what a pain! When you think of the percentages = 100 shots = 2 or 3 good ones... most of shots just go straight to the trash.

[7rider]

It's $50 to order a CD with the 10 or so pictures of me (some not so good) taken by the photographers at my tri. Kinda pricey, but the only photos of me "in action".

Has anyone had any experience with ordering these? Any regrets?

Okay....so I'm coming into this discussion spectacularly late, but I wanted to throw something out there.

I bought postcards and a few 4x6's of me after my first century. They didn't offer an option of a CD back then (2001, was that so long ago??), which would have been totally cool. If it's your first tri, and the photos are good, I say go for it. What is $50 but a really nice bike jersey on sale?? Dinner for two at an okay restaurant? A mediocre saddle? Put it in perspective: memories or something for the closet.

Curious....would they provide high-res pictures? Our second attempt at a century (in a dying tropical storm - 7" of rain and 30 mph wind...yuck) ended at mile 50 for us, but we did have some pictures captured. I visited the website (and passed around the URL to folks so they could look) but didn't buy. The pictures posted, however, were very low-resolution, so it was difficult to even get a "feel" for the picture and whether or not I wanted to buy it (which I didn't....I didn't want to remember that dismal event).

[chickwhorips]

speaking of hard photos to get, and seeing blue's photo. i saw this once, only once. 6 horses running and all hooves were off the ground. old friend of mine took this picture and i don't know how long it took her to get it, but it was a LONG time.

[KnottedYet]

AAAAAAAAAH!!!!! BrightRoom just raised the price of the CD to $57!!!!!!

CCCCCCRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trek420]

OK, who sent them the link to this thread? ;)

[tribug]

I'm glad some people are understanding the biz side of photography and what it takes to make images.

I'm running an event photography company called Opix (www.opix.net) in San Diego. I have no idea how Brightroom or other companies do their business so I can speak only for my company. These are some quick facts:

1) Number of shooters I hire: usually 3 - 4.
2) Number of images I look thru after an event: 5,000 – 10,000
3) Number of nights to go thru #2: 5
4) Number of people who place an order: 10% or less, usually.

Notes:

#2: "look thru" means determing the race number(s) in each image. It's not always easy because sometimes you can't see. And I spend a lot of time trying to figure out them. Really frustrating. I do all of post-race steps by myself.

#3: I say "nights" because I still have a day job so I do everything at night. Needless to say, I don’t get much of sleep in that period…

In short, this is extremely time-consuming, and therefore images are priced accordingly, NOT just for ink and paper (or disk). Of course, there are many other aspects of running this kind of business, but BlueTree and others have already mentioned so I don't repeat.

Honestly, it's not so rewarding money-wise. If I were a little bit smarter, I shouldn’t be doing this business...

[KnottedYet]

I gave up on getting anything from my tri. After Brightroom raised their prices the 2nd week, and then the $8 shipping charge, I couldn't even afford to buy ONE picture.

And, no, I won't "steal" them. Like I said before, I have many artists in my world and I don't do that.

If BR had lower prices, how many more pics would they have sold? Seems like their profit would be better with lower prices and more sales. And the hard work has already been done (pics are taken, and sorted, regardless).

My mom and SKnot got a couple pics. None of me on the bike, but that's the way it goes. I'll have those to remember the tri by.

[tribug]

If BR had lower prices, how many more pics would they have sold? Seems like their profit would be better with lower prices and more sales. And the hard work has already been done (pics are taken, and sorted, regardless).

Lower prices may bring more sales, but the profit margin from each sale becomes smaller. So, for example, if Brightroom wants to make $100 and now they need to sell 5 prints, they may have to sell 8 prints to reach the same goal with lower prices.

Also, posting pics isn't the end of hard work. Once I get orders, I retouch those ordered images, which takes some time. Virtually no single image goes to the printer straight out of camera. I always look for any improvements in images so my customers will be 100% satisfied.

Disclaimer: Like I said in my previous post, I am speaking only for my own business, not for Brightroom or any others.