Experienced runners, I need your advice.

[limewave]

I've been training for my first Marathon, I plan to run the Chicago in October. This is my first real endurance event--longer than 2.5 hours. I'm fairly new to running so this is all new to me.

I'm six weeks into my training and I have eight weeks left. I've done one 18 miler, a fifteen and several 13s. I've noticed the last two weeks that my knees feel weak. I have a hard time squatting to pick up my baby. My legs are just tired. The last few long runs I've taken ice baths and have even iced my knees later in the day. It helps keep them from getting sore, but they are still weak.

I'm wondering, at this point, should I take a week off from my training to let my legs recover . . . or is the weak-knees part of the training process and I should just push through it???? I'm hesitant to take time off as I don't want to get behind in my training, but I don't want to burn my legs out either. Any advice?

[jenxxs]

Hi, my advice is to listen to your body, and do not worry about adjusting your marathon training program to get more rest. The first time I tried to train for a marathon, I adopted a standard beginner's program, and it was too much mileage for me - ended up with a minor stress fracture and had to drop out of the program. The next time, I designed my own program with much lower mileage overall, and incorporating a lot of pool running. It worked out perfectly for me, and I finished the race with pretty fresh legs.

Keep in mind that the more tired your legs are, the worse your running mechanics are going to be, and the more prone you are to injury.

So, my recommendation would be to insert a very light week - even zero running if that's what your legs are telling you - and don't worry about falling back in your program. If you've already done an 18-miler, I predict you'll have no problem finishing a marathon. You'll be amazed at the adrenaline you have in your first one. I had so much adrenaline that I couldn't sleep at all the night before - and I still finished!

Good luck!

[limewave]

Thanks for the advice. I should try pool running--I never thought of that. And it sounds fun too.

[jenxxs]

...is extremely tedious, I hate to say. However, the boringness of it does have a benefit - when you get to the actual race, the time seems to fly by, and the scenery seems incredibly interesting, because you have built up a high tolerance for repetitiveness.

But it is excellent preparation - you do feel the workout in your legs, but you avoid all the pounding.

[Running Mommy]

Hi LW-
I echo the "listen to thy bod" statement!!! Esp. with knees! When they start barking it's time to back off a bit or you won't be racing at all!!
I would also suggest doing the real long stuff (15+ miles) only every other week. You know it may mean that you only get one 20 miler and maybe one more 18 in, but your legs will have more time to recover.
I've got 4 marys, plus an Ironman mary in the bag, and I've certainly gone through some trial and error over the years. I've found that if I go long one week and then the next week only run 10- no more than 12- I am fine. it seems to give my legs more time to recover, but I'm still getting my body used to the endurance I'll need in the race.
I've also found that I can't run more than 2 consecutive days in a row. So maybe alternate regular running one day, with pool running the next.
Hopefully this helps.
Oh- and good job on the ice baths!! They are SOOO important!!
Train smart and stay safe!
Denise

[Beverly Fay]

Firstly, let me say that I run at the pace of an arthritic snail, but for that reason, I feel that my experiences may be of some value since when I train for marathons, I tend to be on my feet a lot longer than many others!

As an alternative to taking a full week's rest (you may find it too hard to get started again once you stop), I would suggest the alternative of cutting your mileage way down and running faster. It may seem unlikely, but after using your long slow distance muscles so extensively, it may be that you have some untapped liveliness in your fast twitch muscles.

And after all that hard slogging, it may even feel exhilarating to do some short runs (2-5 miles) at a faster pace. I've tried this, and it works for me, so maybe it will for you, too.

Another word of advice, somewhat off the topic: Marathon training can make you more susceptible to colds and such-like, especially in the immediate aftermath. I have found that taking a course of the herbal remedy echinacea starting around three weeks before the event and continuing for the week afterwards is a highly effective preventative.

In any event, good luck!

[CorsairMac]

*waves hello to Ireland* :D :D

and now back to our regularly schedueld programme:

I would also suggest supplementing with potassium and/or magnesium/calcium. I was having real problems wayyyyyy back with weakness in my knees and thighs - to the point I couldn't climb a flight of stairs. I did quite a bit of research and discovered I was burning off a lot of potassium and those were some of the side effects. Once I started supplementing, the weakness went away.

just as an fyi: you lose potassium every time you sweat, pee and breathe with your mouth open.

[Bella]

I found that doing some light weight/resistance training at the gym strengthened tendons and such around my knees and helped my performance.

Some like to take Glucosamine/Chondroitin but the jury is still out there for me to form an opinion.

Don't forget the standards like good stretching, cross training (I also cannot run more than two days in a row - must also do low impact aerobic stuff like cycling), and proper shoe fit. I added arch supports to my shoes this spring and was amazed at the difference in my recovery post workout and race.

[RunMamaRun]

Hey LimeWave!

Sorry to hear of your "pains". I may be the last person to throw my two cents in as I am by no means an experienced runner. However, that said, I have completed my first 5k race ever and placed 2nd for my age group (30-34). Along the way in my training there were days that I was tired, aching from disabling shin splints, etc. You really should take a couple of days off to recover. Also, like many others said, replace some of your cardio with cycling as it is way easier on the knees. Also, consider some strength training. I wouldn't be where I am today without it. I used to have terrible knees...so bad that I gave up hope on running. Well, as of today I signed up for an 8k...the next will be a half-marathon.

Good luck to you and take it easy!

RunMamaRun

[mosaic]

The weakness is a part of the long run recovery process, but given that you say you are fairly new to running in general you may be running too much for your conditioning right now. It sounds like you don't realistically have the leg strength specific to running to handle the hours of pounding on the long runs. This doesn't mean you should take a whole week off, but you do need to alter whatever plan you are following to allow muscle cell repair.

My advice is to back off running, but not completely. Supplement your aerobic training with less stressful exercises like water jogging, swimming, biking. Cut down to two midweek runs that should be on the shorter side. Try not to skip long runs. As you peak with longer and longer long runs, there should be easier weeks in between with full days off of running. I won't kid you, long runs stink and they do hurt, but if the hurt continues for more than 3 days you should probably adjust your schedule.

Honestly, I think you can absolutely do this if you got through the 18 miles. Finishing a marathon will give you a great sense of accomplishment, but if it were easy the reward would not be so great.

[limewave]

Thanks for the great input!

Yesterday (2 days after my long run) I did some squats and leg strengthening exercises. My knees felt weak to begin with, but felt stronger and stronger as I continued with the exercises. I hadn't been doing strengthening exercises because I thought running and cycling was enough.

Later in the day, I did a short run pushing the jogger. I wanted to run fast, by my legs felt like bricks--I ended up doing intervals instead. My legs felt great afterward!!! Yeah!

I've also been munching on bananas and making sure to get my calcium--I'm really bad at eating foods with those nutrients and I have to be reminded.

Tonight I'm doing an easy 25 mile ride with some friends. Tomorrow I'll do a tough 45 mile ride with some rivals. And then I'll do another short run on Friday.

Sunday, I plan to attempt another 18 miler. Wish me luck!

Another question . . . I'm about 20 lbs overweight. I've heard that training for an endurance event like this is not the time to try and lose weight. But, would it be so bad if I committed myself to an 1800 calorie diet and 2400 calories on my long run days? I'd start losing weight, but it wouldn't be drastic.

[mosaic]

It's probably not a good idea to limit your caloric intake if you are already experiencing fatigue symptoms. Just my opinion.

You are skirting around a lot of issues that will compound your chances of injury. Injury management is a huge part of endurance running. In reality, running 18 miles takes up a good 1800 calories, nevermind the rest of the day and chasing kids. You should take in the calories, chances are you might lose some weight anyway in a slower manner. But, not eating enough will increase cortisol levels which will further breakdown your body and subsequently your mindset. Hormones that induce hunger are going to drive you insane too.

[RunMamaRun]

Great advice Mosiac! Sounds like you have been doing this for sometime!

RunMamaRun

[mosaic]

Great advice Mosiac! Sounds like you have been doing this for sometime!

RunMamaRun


Ha, actually I'm just a major dork. But yeah, I've been running for quite awhile and certainly know running much better than cycling. This site is great though.

[RunMamaRun]

Ha, actually I'm just a major dork. But yeah, I've been running for quite awhile and certainly know running much better than cycling. This site is great though.

You fooled me! ;) I just started running in April so I am still wet behind the ears. I found this site accidentally. Looks great though. I could use all the advice encouragement I can get!

RunMamaRun

[Beverly Fay]

I would say now is NOT the time to go for weight loss, which will further weaken you. Bear in mind that running is catabolic (breaks down tissue) rather than anabolic (builds muscle).

I actually GAINED 20 pounds in the course of training for my first marathon because I was foolish enough to pay attention to the running magazines and eat a diet high in carbohydrates, as well as using those miserable, sugar-laden sports drinks and bars.

After a long, hard slog, I have since succeeded (drum roll -- trumpet fanfare) in losing the weight, plus some more, by the simple expedient of eating lots of protein, fruit and vegetables, and ignoring every piece of so-called nutritional advice that's ever been published for runners. And I haven't gone near a sports drink in four years!

Unless you're running at elite pace, there's no need for high GI foods. But do be sure to get enough protein, because that will help build up what gets broken down when you train hard.

Hope this helps, and again, all the very best to you.

Beverly

[Bella]

Beverly Fay is right. One can totally overestimate the amount of calories needed during and after long or short runs. I won't even smell Gatorade now after overdosing during marathon training two years ago.

It is easy to make excuses to eat overly well post running - and dive right into desserts and french fries and other bad choices like a whole bag of potato chips. This is the time to eat the right carbs in moderation. Pasta is good, but 2lbs of pasta is not good.

It is possible to lose a few pounds (but not 15) in your training. By running within your fat burning zone with use of your heart rate monitor, you will burn more, and save your knees in the process. You should take your long runs at a civil pace and save interval runs at higher tempos for midweek. Gets the heart rate in that upper zone.

This is the time not to cut your calories but to make more sensible choices about them.

Sounds so easy too - since every body and metabolism is different, you will have to find the right mechanism to burn fuel like a rocket. Good luck - see you in October!