Floyd-Results are back

[crazycanuck]

Sitting here reading about the positive B test on the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/cycling/5233476.stm

1-How can he fight the verdict? Would he still be able to race for another country or another team?

Is there another way of testing the sample provided?

2-I noticed he was a mtn biker-Do you think he'd go back to it? Could he?

I'm mainly curious-I don't follow roadie racing but I know you ladies love this gent...

c

[Dogmama]

Historically, cyclists have fought this and won. In this case, who knows? It still doesn't make sense that one day's test would be radically higher than the other tests.

I'm bummed.:(

[Kalidurga]

1-How can he fight the verdict? Would he still be able to race for another country or another team? Is there another way of testing the sample provided?

I believe the two-year ban prohibits a rider from racing in any professional event with any team in any country. There was a bit of controversy earlier this year over Tyler Hamilton racing by himself in a non-pro race in Colorado, but I think that it was technically allowable.

From what I've read, it sounds as if there are other tests that can be done besides the one's that returned this result. I hope that Floyd takes every test he can to obtain proof that'll back up his statements.


2-I noticed he was a mtn biker-Do you think he'd go back to it? Could he?

Apparently, Floyd left the mountain biking circuit because he felt there wasn't a future in it. It does seem that there's more financial stability in road racing, depending on the sponsorships you can pick up. Who knows what he'd consider at this point, though...

:(

[Tuckervill]

I was kind of on the fence about it all, not having an opinion, but now, after reading Floyd's blog and then reading the AP article on AOL this morning in which they used the terms:

"his backup doping sample tested positive"
"sample confirmed the initial "adverse analytical finding" for higher-than-allowable levels of testosterone."
"who says the positive finding was due to naturally high testosterone levels"
"high testosterone reading"

I am on Floyd's side. There seems to be a lot of half-truths and obfuscation and misinterpretation of the results by the press. I know from personal experience that people writing articles about things they know only a little about get it wrong quite often. It has taken on a life of its own and the TDF people, UCI, and certainly Phonak are not treating him fairly.

If his testosterone was in the normal range as he says, it would only be fair that the press point that out, and explain that it's the ratio that matters, and not continue stating that it was a "positive" test or higher than allowable levels.

It also doesn't make sense that none of his other samples showed a similar result.

Unfortunately, I don't think he'll beat it. I think the lawsuits will carry on and on and in the meantime they'll strip his title and by the time the lawsuits are over it will be years too late to get his title back. I don't think he did it. Between a rock and a hard place, he is.

Karen

[Cassandra_Cain]

I guess this news really isn't shocking, especially as FL and his legal team said they expected a positive B sample.

I'm afraid I don't think FL being a nice guy or seeming sincere is enough for me. There is no nicer, down-to-earth, sweet guy in the pro circuit than Tyler Hamilton. There's no way such a nice rider like that, with his bouncy golden retrievers, and pretty wife could have cheated right? Yet he did, although his denials remain to the day.

So I don't know whether FL cheated or not - maybe, maybe not. They keep throwing out possible explanations, and at some point it starts sounding a bit hokey - beer, dehydration, cortisone shot, the full moon...

What I do know is that none of the other riders, all tremendous athletes like FL, did not fail those tests.

I'd like to see this resolved conclusively one way or another - guilty or innocent - I think the entire sport suffers greatly the longer this goes on.

[betagirl]

I think he's guilty. Then again I think most, if not all, pro cyclists dope.

What makes me think he's guilty is his incredible surge in performance from last year. He won FOUR tours this year. Four. That's incredible don't ya think? It was chalked up to intense training. Did he hold back until Lance retired? I doubt that. The two really don't like each other all that much. Or did he win Le Tour because the big name contenders were out from the Spanish investigation? I guess that could be the case too. I don't know, the whole thing just smells to me.

Greg Lemond had this to say:

"When I heard it was synthetic hormone, it is almost impossible to be caused by natural events. It's kind of a downer," said LeMond, the first American to win the Tour. "I feel for Floyd's family. I hope Floyd will come clean on it and help the sport. We need to figure out how to clean the sport up, and we need the help of Floyd."

I tend to agree with him, as hard as it is to swallow that Floyd cheated. They were probably masking it, and someone screwed up on that day and he got caught.

Just my $.02

[Selkie]

I was sorry to hear about the second test result. I don't know enough about the testing, etc. to make kind of conclusion.

I have to admit that I think Oscar P. is a hot thang and I was kind of rooting for him over FL (which is terrible, given the fact that I'm a native Pennsylvanian!). It's too bad that Oscar might end up winning this year's TDF because of FL's test result.

[Cassandra_Cain]

I was sorry to hear about the second test result. I don't know enough about the testing, etc. to make kind of conclusion.

I have to admit that I think Oscar P. is a hot thang and I was kind of rooting for him over FL (which is terrible, given the fact that I'm a native Pennsylvanian!). It's too bad that Oscar might end up winning this year's TDF because of FL's test result.

Pereiro is sizzling :D

I was cheering for him, just because nobody even gave him a chance. Plus I'm Spanish.

Regardless, I admire how he has said many times how bad this is for the sport, and how he'd rather remain second ideally.

[alpinerabbit]

I'm not so sure anymore.

There's a paper showing 11:1 ratios are quite normal, it was written elsewhere that the T value is not elevated, instead it's the E value that's low, and the reliabilty of the natural/synthetic testing is iffy at best.

He might win this in court.

[Triskeliongirl]

I think he's guilty. Then again I think most, if not all, pro cyclists dope.

I agree with you. What shocks me is that so many of you don't. Hey, I like Floyd as much as the next girl, I was rooting for him just like the rest of you, just like I did for Ivan, just like I did for Tyler, but how many times do we have to be let down by our heroes to get the message. These are the facts:

1. Failed T/E A test.
2. Falied T/E B test.
3. Mass Spec Results revealed testosterone made from a plant precurser. I am sorry ladies, but as a biochemist I know mass spec is extremely sensitive and reliable, so this either means Floyd is a plant or Floyd cheated.

Some will say if they all cheat, then he still won, but I say they all cheat, but to varying degrees and at different times. Floyd only failed the test on that day, because that is the day he popped testosterone, and that is the day no one could catch him cuz on that day no one else took as much of a performance enhancing drug as he did.

[Bikingmomof3]

I am new at this, so please bare with me-I have watched the Tour for years, but never followed the tech info.

I really want him to be clean. I like him (do not know him personally, but he appears to be a nice guy).

My question is this-will we ever know for certain? It appears that one can argue either way for the test results. Is the damage not already done? FL has his reputation in question. Some had already condemed him, others defend him, and then still some like me, waiting for proof positive one way or the other. Now I wonder will there ever be absolute proof of innocence of guilt?

I just find this entire situation terribly sad.

[jeannierides]

I don't know the answer to this any more than the rest of you. It is sad. And disappointing. And scary for FL, and any of the other cyclists that just might be clean.
The one thing I do know, though, is that I wouldn't listen to Greg Lemond about any of it... to hear him talk, he's the only cyclist that doesn't (didn't) dope.

[Triskeliongirl]

My question is this-will we ever know for certain? It appears that one can argue either way for the test results.

Yes we will, because we have SCIENCE. Yes, the lawyers are paid to make these arguments, but the test results don't lie. A process has begun, and there are likely to be more tests and examination of the results by scientific experts. So, yes in the end we will know. It is true that any one test might be flawed, but already we have the T/E ratio test done twice, we have the mass spec. result, and we have his extraordinary performance. While it is true that each of these things indicidually could have other explanations, when considered together a very solid case has formed

Think of it this way. You go to the doctor, and you take a test that says your TSH levels are above normal. You are feeling sluggish and perhaps other confirmatory tests are ordered. Based on the totality of the evidence, your doctor diagnoses you with a thyroid condition and prescribes thyroid hormone. Will you ever really know that you have a thyroid condition? Of course!

I know a lot of you out there want to believe Floyd, but this is a situation where I think we have to believe the scientists over the lawyers.

[Cindyloo]

I agree with the biochemist! I have used mas spec lots and know that it is extremely sensitive and the results are what they are. Go ahead with the "contamination" arguments :rolleyes: .

Has Floyd never been tested in another race before? If he had high testosterone levels naturally (even if it's just during a race, dehydration, etc.) then the elevated levels would be there during another race. He's a nice guy, he wanted to win, he thought he could possibly flush it out with all that water he was drinking the next day and no one would be the wiser. Got caught. Basically it doesn't matter what any of us think because it is up to the UCI and/or the courts.

[Delta7]

Results seem inconsistent, if the T is normal. What would cause the low E? Is the actual test result published or do we have to rely on the news?

Cheers.

[betagirl]

Just a thought on labs and science.

I have crohn's disease in my terminal ileum, where vitamin B12 is absorbed. During my fun diagnostic process, which included lots of tests that all pretty much said either "yes," "well maybe" or were negative, I had a Schilling test done to see why my vitamin B12 levels were so low. Long story short is that test came back fine, I absorb vitamin B12 just like any other healthy person. Yet my levels get dangerously low if I don't maintain a regiment of monthly injections. So while the test says I do, I obviously don't absorb B12. Taking oral supplements doesn't have the same effect as the shots. So something is off there. Have I repeated the test? Nah. Why bother really.

Just a little tidbit about test results :) I still think he's guilty.

[Dogmama]

3. Mass Spec Results revealed testosterone made from a plant precurser. I am sorry ladies, but as a biochemist I know mass spec is extremely sensitive and reliable, so this either means Floyd is a plant or Floyd cheated.


Now THAT is funny. Needed a laugh.

If they can tell that the testosterone is exogenous, he's screwed. I wonder how the other cyclists have managed to beat this test result in court? Maybe testing methods were not as sensitive as what we have now?

[Triskeliongirl]

Results seem inconsistent, if the T is normal. What would cause the low E? Is the actual test result published or do we have to rely on the news?

The ratio of T/E is considered more reliable than the actual T level as an indication of doping, since the absolute amount of testosterone in his urine can be influenced by the amount of liquid he drinks, but no matter how hard he tries to dilute it out, he can't change the ratio of testsosterone to epitestosterone. The ratio test is based on the fact that since epitestosterone is the precurser of testosterone, if the testosterone is naturally made in the body, this should be balanced by a similar amount of epitestosterone, for most people this ratio is 1:1, UCI allows up to 4:1 and his was 11:1. When one supplements with testosterone, the amount of testosterone relative to epitestosterone is elevated, although some avoid detection by also taking epitestosterone along with testosterone. Now it is true that some people have abnormally high T/E ratios naturally, but supposedly his other 5 samples tested at the tour showed normal ratios. It is true that alcohol consumption can effect the ratio, but why did first he claim to have had one beer, then all of a sudden he also had some Jack D, etc. (it takes a lot of alcohol to elevate the TE ratio). But, because of these issues if all they had was the elevated T/E ratio it may have been difficult to make a definitive case. But, the mass spec allows them to detect subtle differences in the isotope of carbon found in plant sterols vs human sterols. Since plant sterols are used to make testosterone in the lab, the finding of carbon isotopes in a ratio found in plants and not people is very convincing.

What bothers me now, is his lawers are making their arguments on lack of due process (leaking results to the press) vs whether he actually did it (i.e. see latest articles at velonews.com), and seem to be trying to salvage his reputation by putting questions that aren't there about the science in the minds of a public that doesn't understand the science.

[Triskeliongirl]

Now THAT is funny. Needed a laugh.

If they can tell that the testosterone is exogenous, he's screwed. I wonder how the other cyclists have managed to beat this test result in court? Maybe testing methods were not as sensitive as what we have now?

My understanding is the only test that has been beat is the T/E ratio test. I don't think they were expecting the mass spec test to be performed, since it is technically demanding and requires very expensive instrumentation.

[ChainsOflove]

In an interview way last spring, Floyd talked about how his training was completly changed and his VO2 Max results were rivaling those of L.A.

I don't think his improvment is from Doping.

It just seems that floyd is an unlikely one to drug up. Somethings not right about it.

[ChainsOflove]

I don't understand why Greg Lemond feels its his role to discredit all these other U.S. riders. I don't think its the right thing to do, as Americans they should not trash each other.

Clearly he's bitter becuase he is now old and fat, and LA and even TY made WAY more money than him. I mean you don't hear Bernard Hinault or Eddie trashing riders. GL should shut up. :mad:

[Delta7]

"why did first he claim to have had one beer, then all of a sudden he also had some Jack D"

First time I heard of the beer, whiskey was also mentioned, but anywho, so your saying the ratio and not the actual level of T is what is manipulated and thus cause a performance increase? I don't know science, but I do know numbers, so this is interesting.

Cheers.

[snapdragen]

I'm not sure where AP and the other papers got their info. The UCI press release is nowhere near the length.

http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stlevelid=Q&level1=0&level2=0&idnews=4309

I've still not seen anything official about the carbon isotope testing - anyone have a real link? Not just newpaper articles? It is the media that is reporting the exogenous testosterone. To my knowledge, the UCI hasn't confirmed it.

[maillotpois]

Thanks, Snap. Yeah, something's funky here.

[Triskeliongirl]

" so your saying the ratio and not the actual level of T is what is manipulated and thus cause a performance increase? I don't know science, but I do know numbers, so this is interesting. Cheers.

What I am saying, is that if one takes exogenous testosterone, 2 things will help, the absolute level of testosterone will go up, as will the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Floyd is arguing that since his absolute level of testosterone isn't above normal he didn't do it, however, the absolute level in urine is heavily influenced by hydration state, so this doesn't get him off the hook. However, had it also been high, it would be one more strike against him. That is why I read that some athletes dope with a patch containing both T and E that they place on their scrotum after a hard day for recovery. In general the amounts are low enough to not effect the total amount of T, or upset the ratio, and therefore go undetected.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm not sure where AP and the other papers got their info. The UCI press release is nowhere near the length.

http://www.uci.ch/modello.asp?1stlevelid=Q&level1=0&level2=0&idnews=4309

I've still not seen anything official about the carbon isotope testing - anyone have a real link? Not just newpaper articles? It is the media that is reporting the exogenous testosterone. To my knowledge, the UCI hasn't confirmed it.

To my knowlege the UCI has not explicitly released any of the results to the general public except to say they are averse. However in this article, at least a name is attached to the source of the the carbon isotope results report:

According to various sources, Landis's "A" sample showed signs that some of the testosterone came from an outside source. Pierre Bordry, who heads the French anti-doping council, said Saturday that the lab found evidence of testosterone from exogenous sources in Landis' urine. "I have received a text message from Chatenay-Malabry lab that indicates the 'B' sample of Floyd Landis' urine confirms testosterone was taken in an exogenous way," Bordry told The Associated Press. "

From: http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html

[snapdragen]

But that's just it -- "various sources". Who are they? Have they actually read the results? Is it someone who knows what they're talking about, or is it a clerk, or the night janitor, hoping to gain a bit of the spotlight? I've seen nothing concrete from the lab itself - just "well I was told this, or texted this"

[Bikingmomof3]

3. Mass Spec Results revealed testosterone made from a plant precurser. I am sorry ladies, but as a biochemist I know mass spec is extremely sensitive and reliable, so this either means Floyd is a plant or Floyd cheated.


My husband is a chemist and was Laughing is A** off when I read this to him. :)

[Tuckervill]

I agree with you. What shocks me is that so many of you don't.

I'm just not that cynical. I generally trust people until they prove they can't be trusted. I think this is where me and a lot of people part ways, but that's okay. I can't live in a world where I believe EVERYONE cheats, where everyone is suspect. Just can't.

Karen

[snapdragen]

I'm just not that cynical. I generally trust people until they prove they can't be trusted. I think this is where me and a lot of people part ways, but that's okay. I can't live in a world where I believe EVERYONE cheats, where everyone is suspect. Just can't.

Karen

+1! :D

[tulip]

Just as I have suspected all along. Floyd is a plant.

[Geonz]

I don't like a world where *everybody* cheats ...
... but in that subculture of the world, it's not considered cheating. (THat's one reason people can deny "cheating" with a straight face, could easily say "I won because of my training" and be telling the truth... ) Sorta like the way in some cultures, bribery is simply an essential part of the culture. No, it's not nice, it's not ideal. It is REAL.
Do you think that college athletes study hard to get those grades in those Division I schools? Drop in and find out. Heck, I was a walk-on non-scorer on a Division II swim team and I automatically got student jobs at the pool. I *know* the breaks some of the football guys got - again, this wasn't even the "big time."
So, if the reason for not thinking he's guilty is "it doesn't make sense for him to do that" - I would have to beg to differ. It's a team sport; you don't want to let down your team. All you have to do is not ask too many hard questions! It's not like you have to make some great decision to cross the line... you'd have to make all kinds of repeated decisions ... oh, and prob'ly lose races... to keep getting on the other side of the line. And it woulnd't be considered being a noble individual ... nobody would tell you "you're doing the right thing." To them, it's not cheating, it's what you do to be a better rider.

[chickwhorips]

so from what i gather from this thread is....

A) test results are in

B) no one knows for sure this is an "official" result

am i following this right?

from what FL and his lawyers said they knew that "B" was going to come in with the same results. the problem i'm having is that it was a synthetic testosterone found. if it was high and everything was natural, then i would have an easier time beliving he is innocent.

maybe he is a plant or just an alien from another world.....

[Dogmama]

If he is a plant, somebody needs to trim his ears.

I thought the whole point of the second test taking such a long time was that they were checking for exogenous testosterone.

[7rider]

For what it's worth....
I don't think Floyd is a cheat.
I don't think he's a "regular" cheater.
If he were, I think previous tests would have shown it, and they did not. Subsequent tests do not show cheating. It all hinges on 1 test done after Stage 17.
I think he was distraught over bonking on Stage 16. Terribly distraught, feeling like he just blew the Tour, something he worked soooo hard for.
Man, that has got to hurt.
So....Dr. Feel Good comes along and says..."Floyd, my man. I can fix that. Wear this little patch on your privates and it'll help you recover. Totally natural (from plants???). No need to do anything. Show up on drug tests??? Nah...not to worry. And you can honestly say you never "ingested" anything."
So Floyd, being the good soldier he is, does as he's told and POW! What a stunning comeback in Stage 17! Epic, dude.
...and maybe because he takes cortisone, or thyroid meds, or because he had that shot and a beer, it DOES show up in his drug test....it's amplified or something.
And now he blew the Tour...everything he's worked so hard for goes up in a puff of smoke.
Man, that's got to hurt.
Just my theory anyway......

[velogirl]

What makes me think he's guilty is his incredible surge in performance from last year. He won FOUR tours this year. Four. That's incredible don't ya think? It was chalked up to intense training. Did he hold back until Lance retired? I doubt that. The two really don't like each other all that much. Or did he win Le Tour because the big name contenders were out from the Spanish investigation? I guess that could be the case too. I don't know, the whole thing just smells to me.

Especially at the pro level, cycling is a multi-year sport. Floyd began working with Allen Lim last year (one of the rockstars of power-training and exercise physiology, and in my opinion one of the best coaches out there). I worked with Allen earlier this year and we discussed Floyd's training. He's focused his training for many seasons on 2006, meaning that he's trained through all these other races with the intention of peaking this year (when Lance had retired). That's not completely unusual (to have a multi-year cycle). Consider Olympic athletes. They may have smaller goal competitions, but their full training cycle is focused on one competition that's held every four years.

Until last year, Floyd wasn't a team leader either. He was a domestique for Lance on USPS and was expected to lieutenant for Tyler Hamilton on Phonak last year (until Tyler got the boot). Once Tyler was out, Floyd was moved into a team leader position.

It's not unusual for pro athletes to spend many years (a decade in Floyd's case) developing their potential. In cycling, an athlete gains experience, skills, works his way up the domestic and then international team structure, gains experience in different classics and stage races, serves as a domestique, points winner or stage winner in the TdF, and as the race leader in smaller tours before he'd even consider a goal such as winning TdF. Think about it. There are almost 200 racers in TdF, but in reality, only a handful of them are truly contenders to win the race in any given year.

[velogirl]

Think of it this way. You go to the doctor, and you take a test that says your TSH levels are above normal. You are feeling sluggish and perhaps other confirmatory tests are ordered. Based on the totality of the evidence, your doctor diagnoses you with a thyroid condition and prescribes thyroid hormone. Will you ever really know that you have a thyroid condition? Of course!

Neither here nor there (since I know you simply used thyroid as an example), but as someone mis-diagnosed as hyper-thyroid (based on testing only TSH) when in reality I was hypo (Hashimoto's) and had thyca, I can argue that there were additional tests my docs should've done (free T-3 and free T-4) that would have given them additional information to diagnose me correctly. I don't have a high level of confidence in labs or testing or docs. If my doc didn't have complete information, what's to say that the French labs have complete information in this case?

I'm not a scientist, but my understanding is that there is a question about the validity of the T/E ratio test, so much so that it's likely WADA will throw out the test in the next update.

Banned substance lists change all the time (once a year from WADA; national associations sometimes take longer to follow suit). And the testing and technology for detecting banned substances also changes. New tests (like the T/E test) are introduced and later found to be faulty. Landis and his lawyers are counting on this, I think.

I know science is as black & white as we can get, but there's still some gray around the edges if you ask me.

[velogirl]

What bothers me now, is his lawers are making their arguments on lack of due process (leaking results to the press) vs whether he actually did it (i.e. see latest articles at velonews.com), and seem to be trying to salvage his reputation by putting questions that aren't there about the science in the minds of a public that doesn't understand the science.

Actually, I don't think this argument will be his primary defense. Floyd's case is now turned over to the US governing body (USACycling) -- USADA oversees the process for USAC. There is a very stringent appeal process.

I think the lawyers are working on a libel suit (or due process or whatever). This would be completely separate and in addition to the doping appeal and my guess is that it will be directed at McQuaid/UCI, the French lab, and probably L'Equipe (the paper who first published the findings and is rumored to be in cahoots with the source at the lab. I think they're trying to recoup some of the financial loss Floyd will suffer if he's stripped of his title.

I do think there are questions about the science. Dozens of folks from the cycling industry and the sports science world have been quoted as questioning the validity of the T/E test. Of course, since all pros are dopers, they're probably all in cahoots, right?

[wannaduacentury]

I was expecting the B sample to be positive b/c I believe they(naysayers) wanted it to. If he did it, he should pay the penalty. But then again, they say Lance doped for the last 7 tours and now they found fresh blood to attack as well. So they'll dog him til he cracks. I want to believe he didn't dope, now I'm not so sure and the testing people I don't trust.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'm not a scientist, but my understanding is that there is a question about the validity of the T/E ratio test, so much so that it's likely WADA will throw out the test in the next update.

I agree there are problems with the T/E ratio test as I stated in my other posts. Its the mass spec result (carbon isotope analysis) that makes it definitive, and proves the testosterone was synthtetic.

BTW, I used hypothyroidism in my example, cuz I too have hashimoto's and that is why I said one does multiple tests, TSH, other confirmatory tests (i.e. T3, T4), and looks for other symptoms, i.e. sluggish behavior.

[restrec]

It is the same process we witnessed with Tyler and the desire to lie and lie. All high performance athletes have media advisors who compose the phrases they have to articulate when they face the media. Landis's is pretty good and he adds a few of his personal words. But at the end....Better read this article.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/08/03/bc.cyc.landis.doping.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[Running Mommy]

restrec-
Excuse me if I sound a bit snippy, but I must ask... Why is it that the only threads you have replied to are ones that involve the Floyd Landis case, and why are you so negative?? While I try not to live my life behind rose colored glasses, I also try not to be the judge, jury and executioner.
Just like everyone else that comes to this board, we have invited you to post on the "getting to know you thread" and you have yet to do that. Yes, of course that is your perogative, but I have to wonder why?
Please understand that this board is by and large a very positive supportive community, So when someone comes to the board with only negative things to say they are not really welcomed with open arms.
Again, I invite you to join in on the "getting to know you" thread in the open topics section.
Stay safe
Denise

[chickwhorips]

restrec-
Excuse me if I sound a bit snippy, but I must ask... Why is it that the only threads you have replied to are ones that involve the Floyd Landis case, and why are you so negative?? While I try not to live my life behind rose colored glasses, I also try not to be the judge, jury and executioner.
Just like everyone else that comes to this board, we have invited you to post on the "getting to know you thread" and you have yet to do that. Yes, of course that is your perogative, but I have to wonder why?
Please understand that this board is by and large a very positive supportive community, So when someone comes to the board with only negative things to say they are not really welcomed with open arms.
Again, I invite you to join in on the "getting to know you" thread in the open topics section.
Stay safe
Denise

i second that.

i feel uncomfortable reading your posts. i understand everyone has a right to their opinion, but you seem to be very harsh.

[velogirl]

Maybe RESTREC is really Greg Lemond -- another sweet, cheery Landis fan who has nothing positive to say!

[Kalidurga]

You are perfectly right !! At last I hear someone who uses his head and not the heart and looks at the facts as Facts.

Could be just semantics, but pretty much everyone else here uses feminine gender references, seeing as how it's a female-oriented forum and all. I'm beginning to wonder how long it's going to be before Greg L., uh, I mean restrec, gets him, uh, I mean her-self banned.

Regarding the Floyd situation, this naive chick is still waiting. Yes, the tests were both positive. Yes, he wouldn't be the first boy-scout-seeming bike racer to lie. But the fat lady hasn't sung yet, as far as I'm concerned. I'm willing to wait and see what form of defense Floyd and his doctors come up with. If it's something like Tyler's chimera, then I'll begin to doubt. But until then, I choose to reserve judgement on the whole case. To me, that's the most rational course of action.

[Dogmama]

Restrec has a right to his-I mean- her opinion. Anybody can make an a** of him/her self - it is a constitutional right. Anyway, you can just put Restrec on your ignore list.

Velogirl, Restrec might ALSO be Pereiro in disguise.

But, back to Landis - they said the testosterone came from a source OUTSIDE of his own body (his alter ego - the plant). The beer alibi is baloney - I did a search and found out that he would have to ingest an enormous amount of booze and he certainly did not ride like a man with a hangover.

There are still questions. This is what Wadler said in a CBS interview:

"Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, Wadler told The Associated Press. But if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected, he said.

"So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up."

Will we find out that there is a method to mask the T/E ratio and it failed during the urine test in question?

In any case, I can't argue with science. In fact, I still think that O.J. did it!

[Trek420]

velogirl "Maybe RESTREC is really Greg Lemond -- another sweet, cheery Landis fan who has nothing positive to say!"

nah, because if RESTREC was really Greg s/he'd be whineing "if I had Floyds T/E ratio *I* could have won the tour 5 times, and if my team had not lied to me, and and .... I could have been a contender, Stellaaaaaa...." :cool:

Let's be nice, give a newbie a break, not everyone finds the getting to know you thread right away as required by TE law :cool:

Welcome to TE RESTREC and when you get a chance surf on over to the getting to know you thread.

And Dogmama's right, you can't argue with science, you can only do further research. I think OJ did it, Global Warming and evolution are real, the earth revolves around the sun.

But I still think the earth is flat and if we ride far enough we'll get to the edge and fall off.

[kelownagirl]

I think that if they strip Landis of his title, they should give the yellow jersey to the guy who came in last. He's probably the only one who wasn't doing drugs... ;)


But I still think the earth is flat and if we ride far enough we'll get to the edge and fall off.

I sometimes wish it were flatter in my part of the world. :rolleyes:

[betagirl]

I think that if they strip Landis of his title, they should give the yellow jersey to the guy who came in last. He's probably the only one who wasn't doing drugs...

LMAO! Awesome.

Hey, since my source of cynicism about Floyd is that he won 4 major tours this year, can anyone educate me on who in the past has done something similar? I haven't followed cycling long enough to know if it's been done.

[uforgot]

I sometimes wish it were flatter in my part of the world. :rolleyes:

No kidding! I visited friends in Nelson, BC a few years ago. They were solidly into riding, (and racing) bikes. One of them rode 55km one day and we drove up and picked her up. We passed her as she was going up this unbelievable hill! Of course, they were all huge compared to our Ozarks. Whenever I see someone on a biking forum from BC I just have to shake my head in amazement! Oh, yeah, and bears? I've heard stories about passing them on the roads, too!

[Eden]

LMAO! Awesome.

Hey, since my source of cynicism about Floyd is that he won 4 major tours this year, can anyone educate me on who in the past has done something similar? I haven't followed cycling long enough to know if it's been done.

I'll have to look into it for specifics, but I know that Eddy Merkyx used to do some pretty amazing stuff - he won all 3 jerseys in the TDF once - yellow, green and polka dot. He also used to race a full season and not only do well in the spring classics, then go onto the big tours. Fausto Coppi did the double (TDF and Giro), I think, several times even with a big break in his career because of WWII.

[Dr. Liz]

I think that if they strip Landis of his title, they should give the yellow jersey to the guy who came in last. He's probably the only one who wasn't doing drugs... ;)

:) :)

The sad thing is that is probably more true that most of the professional cycling world is willing to admit. :(

[kelownagirl]

No kidding! I visited friends in Nelson, BC a few years ago. They were solidly into riding, (and racing) bikes. One of them rode 55km one day and we drove up and picked her up. We passed her as she was going up this unbelievable hill! Of course, they were all huge compared to our Ozarks. Whenever I see someone on a biking forum from BC I just have to shake my head in amazement! Oh, yeah, and bears? I've heard stories about passing them on the roads, too!

My toughest riding day ever was mountain biking in Rossland, which is close to Nelson. 17 km and I was dead...

Luckily, Kelowna isn't as steep hilly as the Nelson area. Ours are _slightly_ more rolling and we do have some flat sections in the valley if I am too bagged to ride hills. I did go down an 18% grade yesterday though. I was _so_ happy to find that there was another, less steep way back up.