No Upper Body Movement?

[Ceil Adair]

Thanks, Stacie. I've been spinning for many years, and know enough to do my own thing when I feel the instructor is really wrong. He taught an hour class today without ever telling anyone to "turn it up". The entire class was at high speed - as fast as you could go - with jumps at least every other song. However, it's the only game in town. :rolleyes:

[spokewench]

Ceil

Maybe the instructor was trying to train your leg speed?

[Dogmama]

If we take away the small amount of movement that we should have while standing, the energy goes to our knees.

Stacie, I have an instructor who does this "running" thing - she is in the standing (not climbing) position, hunkers down and spins at over 120 rpms. There is no upper body movement. I've tried to replicate that, but it feels very unnatural. For the record, she has the Bally's certification (Reaction Cycling?).

So you're saying that this is NOT good for knees? I don't do it because it feels weird and because I'm in spinning to help my road riding.

What the heck is Reaction Cycling anyway? I haven't been too impressed.

[Raindrop]

Reaction Cycling is Ballys version of the Schwinn Certification. And I'm chiming in here to say that none of the certifying bodies condone isolations. However, there will always be those instructors that get certified and then don't adhere to their certifications.

I've been an indoor cycling instructor with with three certifications and lots and lots of CECs for the last ten years and still get surprised when dropping in on other classes.

My creed for participants is: if it doesn't feel right to you...don't do it!

[RoadRaven]

Ummm... don't know where this thought fits... but out on the road, the wind resistance would help keep your body steady too, wouldn't it? ... just like it helps hold your upper body up and relieve the weight-pressure on your wrists/hands...?

[stacie]

Dogmama, If it doesn't feel right, don't do it. While standing, you should always have moderate resistance at a minimum. A standing run, really doesnt simulate anything we do on the road, but it does have a training purpose if done correctly. The move feels more like climbing stairs to me. Make sure you have medium resistance and focus on bringing your knees up to the bars. Don't shift your weight from side to side. You should have the same posture you had in the saddle, flexing from the hip. You'll feel more effort in your quads. YOu can go from there to a standing climb. You will shift some of the work from the quads to the hamstrings. Continue to think about pulling up (knees to bars). Yes, it is different than the road. We don't have a 40 lb flywheel on the road. :p Standing runs at 120 rpm means the flywheel is probably whipping your knees around. Think about what that small tug on your knee cap every pedal stroke will do over time.
We need more instructors like raindrop. Many certs are for life now. This means your instructor can get certified and never take another class. Some instructors take continueing ed classes to stay current or to keep themselves fresh. Most pay for those classes and the travelling involved themselves. These instructors don't make alot of money but do it because they love helping others.
Have fun, be safe.

[Dogmama]

Stacie,

Thanks. I think I'll skip the standing run, since it isn't anything I do on the road. I usually cut the cadence in half and do a climb during the standing run anyway.

I did not know that some certs are for life. Seems like there should be some continuing education required because we're always learning about the body. Maybe you don't remember the Jane Fonda days, but we used to do aerobics on concrete floors barefooted. Stretches were done as big bounces. And the slouchy leg warmers were mandatory :eek:

[Jen]

Some of the certifications tell the instructors to pedal in a class in a seated position at very high resistance for most of the class. Some, I have noticed will do that off and on with speed intervals with alot of resistance. I was taught to do 1 leg isolation drills for training. Won't all that resistance over time kill the knees?

[JamamaSpoke]

I was in a class the other night for the first time all summer. This instructor also called for no upper body movement. I just continued as I was doing and I was fine.

[Jen]

Some people,. when going at high speeds are ALL OVER the place. You need a strong core and you should go a a top speed that works for you. If you are losing your form, too much upper body movement, you are going too fast. A little more practice, you can do it. Remember strong core.

[Brandy]

Some people,. when going at high speeds are ALL OVER the place. You need a strong core and you should go a a top speed that works for you. If you are losing your form, too much upper body movement, you are going too fast. A little more practice, you can do it. Remember strong core.

You're right, some people are bouncing all over the place, but I think that it should be pointed out that there is a middle ground between being out of control and doing isolations. I think that the instructors who demand no upper body movement are doing a disservice to their class.

[aicabsolut]

I have a lot of upper body control from horseback riding. My elbows are soft, and I've got plenty of movement from my hips down when standing on a spin bike. My head doesn't bob much, and my shoulders stay level. When I hear instructors tell people to "take the bounce out" I assume this is what they mean. But I've been in some classes where they want your whole body 'isolated', which seems very tough on the knees. They say it's working the quads a lot, which I suppose it is, in their attempt to protect the knees.

I think if you're spinning smooth circles instead of using your legs as pistons when standing, then you shouldn't have a lot of upper body movement. The more piston-like, the more movement.

For the instructors: is this right?

[Dogmama]

I'm not an instructor, but I think your theory is plausible. I make the movement from my hips/butt area and work on pedaling in circles.

My instructor rides with her back rounded & obviously pushes with her lower back. Big bouncing movements during standing & running. Watching her makes me want to run for the Advil.

[logdiva32]

2nd spin class tonight, felt ok except:
The isolation standing and pedaling with only legs, felt weird and hurt my knees. Is this an ok move?
and If they keep cranking it up and the resistance brings the cadence down for me is this too much?

[Raindrop]

Logdiva32, I teach classes in Washington..and wish you could attend one of my classes. First of all, if it doesn't feel good or comfortable to you...don't do it. Not all movements in classes translate to every rider. Secondly, the other instructors that have posted here are right on in that "isolations" and "high speed candences without resistance" moves are contraindicated by ALL, not most..but ALL certifications.

The instructors that teach those type of drills are going outside of their certifications. While high cadence training is appropriate...it's never done with no resistance. What would be the purpose? Do you ever ride outside in your smallest gear, at your highest cadence?

Likewise, what Stacie said about isolations is totally correct. Outside, the bike moves under us. The indoor cycles are on a fixed base; no movement, so to stop all upper body movement places undo stress on the knees, back etc.


Single leg pedaling drills are also a little bit suspect in that most indoor bikes have a 38 - 42 pound flywheel that pulls your leg around in a circle; not a lot of actual training to smooth out a pedal stroke under those conditions.

Listen to your gut. If it feels bad, wrong or just isn't what you are up to that day...don't do it.

Also, there is nothing wrong with asking your instructor, after class, why they chose that drill and what it was supposed to improve.

[Dogmama]

My instructor does some things that I cannot follow, like standing & running on the bike. It makes my leg go numb (I have spine "issues"). I often do my own thing (intervals) anyway and use the music for tempo. I notice that several others do their own thing too.

[equus123]

I have a few things to add to this topic about the drill that this instructor is *trying* to accomplish. For time trialing and intense efforts outside, we're taught to pull our legs towards the top tube to help reduce wind resistance. This feels kinda weird at first but its easy to get used to. It forces your upper body to stay as still as possible while enabling your legs to pound around the pedals harder without extraneous lateral movement with your knees. Perhaps these drills are meant to simulate those types of efforts in terms of body movement. Any extra swinging or movement with your upper body will only create more drag and waste energy out on the road.

Is your saddle height and fore/aft in the correct positioning? Is your handlebar at the right height and fore/aft?

If the drill is uncomfortable for you, is you're gearing too easy or too hard for the given purpose of this drill?

Are your legs are swinging around too much at the knee instead of staying on one plane?

I don't necessarily tend to think that this instructor would be doing a totally off the cuff type of exercise. I'm also not blaming the problem you're having on you. Just throwing some things into the mix that haven't been brought up on here.

[equus123]

Our spinning instructor calls for "no upper body movement" several times during the class, and the leg movement is quite fast. Isn't this dangerous?

i think as long as the saddle is in the right positioning for you and you are physically fit enough to do the drill, you shouldn't be compromising your knees or other joints at all. it seems perfectly fine to me. are you comfortable spinning at high cadences? as long as you're not flaling your legs around to keep your leg speed high, there shouldn't be a problem. i'm a road racer and have never experienced problems either on my trainer or spin bike.

i dunno, that's my $0.02.

[annabelle]

it was actually this thread that prompted me to register - i am super new to road biking (one week!) but i have been spinning for a few years.

whenever i have a spin teacher tell us to take the bounce out when standing up, it never hurts my knees. my legs aren't going side to side, and my butt is still (for lack of a better term) wagging (though mostly up and down. it's really attractive.)

also, it's only ever been on a hill or a steep jog - never with a fast leg speed or at low tension. i can't tell if this is the same "bad" thing? it's never bothered me, or my knees, so the whole if-it-hurts-then-stop rule, while a great one, doesn't really apply.

if anyone knows the answer, i'd love it. these boards are great!

[equus123]

i apologize but i can't tell what your asking :o

[annabelle]

sorry! i am all over today.

i was mostly wondering if this kind of exercise - brief spells of hill work with no side-to-side movement, with relatively low cadence and light-hill-level tension - are the same kind of isolations mentioned above as being very bad for knees? since my hips still move, and my legs are not going side to side, and my knees don't hurt, i dont know if i am causing damage to them that i just can't feel yet.

[equus123]

at least to me, nothing is bad for your knees. if you have the right form then nothing should be a problem. am I wrong for thinking this way? :confused:

to clear one thing up, your legs are NOT supposed to go side to side. that is absolutely incorrect form. yes, if you want to get technical with it, your knees actually move in figure eights at the very minute level. i know that this isn't what you're talking about.

if your knees don't hurt, you more than likely aren't doing anything wrong then. its okay for your hips to move a bit during a climbing or low cadence drill, they have to. its like asking someone to stay completely still when standing climbing - its impossible.

i mean anyone, please tell me if i'm wrong but doing high cadence drills on spin bikes seems like there's nothing wrong with them as long as you have a proper bike fit and you know how to spin high. if you're having problems then i think it's gotta be one of the two variables that's off.

[logdiva32]

well 3rd class yesterday. Tried the isolation just 1 more time with all of your suggestions, still hurts. Had to get DH to get my Advil 500's.
Note: I have really bad knees, very little cartilidge left from years of abusive and absured Army life.
Wanted to never go back. But I think I will just do my own thing when they call for these moves. Trying to get ready for the S T P, so I need the saddle time.
Thanks all...

[equus123]

well that explains the whole point of this thread then - you have bad knees :cool: :p

[Raindrop]

High cadence drills are not a bad thing in an indoor cycling class if you are using adequate resistance. The key issue here is the 38 - 42 pound flywheel on a fixed gear bike that pulls the legs around. All too often I see people bouncing all over the place during a seated flat or sprint due to the fact they don't have any resistance on and the flywheel is pulling their legs around. Sure, they can get their RPMs way up there but if you don't have control over the flywheel in this case, you are risking injury to your knees.

It's the flywheel that is the difference between working on and indoor cycling bike or on a bike on a trainer.

[logdiva32]

Yea, Sat instructor was flapping all around when we sprinted. This morning was real cool though, new guy, we cranked it up and down with no craziness and had a good workout still. Knees still hurt, reaching for advil now, literally.:eek: