Hip angles and max thrust

[run it, ride it]

My pelvis is very upright rather than tilted forward like most women. As a runner, I'm built for distance and not speed--I run with butt in and hips forward for max efficiency.

I just got a Trek WSD 1000. One of the qualities it boasted was a steeper seat angle to get you more over the cranks. But I can't get any kind of speed or efficiency unless I perch myself on the very, very front of the seat to get my legs under me--the pedals still seem too far forward from the seat, putting the most stress on my hamstrings and knees rather than powerhouse quads.

If I lower the seat and actually sit on it, it forces my legs too far apart and too far ahead of me.

So, am I just a freak of nature or am I doing something wrong? Any and all advice appreciated!

[Tri Girl]

Hmmmmm...not sure. Have you been fitted by a professional yet (and I don't mean just the stand-over check and other silly "fittings" some bike shops give)?
My LBS does a thorough bike fitting (charges $40- but it's well worth it to get the correct fit). He measures everything and then puts the #'s into his computer, gets some great printout and then adjusts the bike as needed. Very thorough and very worth it.
I would suggest getting a thorough fitting first to see what the problem is.

If you've already been fitted, then I would suggest taking pictures of you on your bike at different angles to see if something looks wrong, and then adjust as needed.

[Triskeliongirl]

It sounds like you want the saddle moved more forward. You can unscrew the saddle and push it further forward on the rails. If it still feels wrong, you may need a different seatpost, if you have a laid back one you may need a straight one, or some laid back posts can be reversed to essentially lay forward. If none of this makes sense to you, go back to where you bought it, and ask if they can help you move the saddle more forward, and if they think that makes sense since they can actually look at you and measure you on the bike.

[KnottedYet]

Depending on the length of your femur vs. your tibia, you might not fit the "typical" WSD set up. (which tends to be designed for a women's proportionally long femur vs a man's proportionally shorter femur)

Leg length (femur + tibia) isn't the only factor for bike fit, though it seems to be the one the shops look at first. The ratio of the two bones (femur vs. tibia) determines where your knee is relative to the crank and what muscles your body has to fire to get power during different phases of the pedal stroke.

If it feels wrong, your body will probably try to move your butt/hips to adjust the knee flexion, since it can't move your feet. (they are stuck with the pedals right where they are)

Perhaps your femurs aren't the extra-long versions, so the seat feels too far back for you because your knees aren't getting to center themselves over the pedal axles at the right times.

I have the opposite problem (looooooong femurs and the seat scootched way far back), so I might just be talking through my hat here.

Head back to the shop and make sure they look at the whole leg and the postion of the knee through the stroke.

[Bikingmomof3]

You sound similar to me. I did not fit well on a Trek 1000 WSD. However, I fit beautifully on the Trek 1000 (which I did buy). I understand WSD is for women, but my body is not made for the WSD design. I happen to have a very long torso, pelvis that does not tilt forward (not fun in childbirth, tmi?), and shorter legs.

[Eden]

You sound similar to me. I did not fit well on a Trek 1000 WSD. However, I fit beautifully on the Trek 1000 (which I did buy). I understand WSD is for women, but my body is not made for the WSD design. I happen to have a very long torso, pelvis that does not tilt forward (not fun in childbirth, tmi?), and shorter legs.

Ah, but her situation sounds more like the opposite of yours. It sounds like the bike may be a bit too long - the good thing is that she recognized it quickly. I used to ride a bike that was overly long and I had the same problem without knowing it. When I moved to a shorter top tube I found that instantly I was able to go about 2-3 mph faster (and no more knee troubles), just because I was using the muscles in my legs better. This was a suprise to me though.

I agree with the others, go get a good fit done. If the size isn't too far off of what you need a few adjustments may put you to rights.

[Bikingmomof3]

Thank you for correcting my error Eden. :)

[run it, ride it]

I was never actually fitted on that bike. Will try to find a place that will do that for me. Didn't even know the seat was adjustable back and forth.

I have a long, very curved femur. If I'm standing up straight, my thighs bow out front further than any other body part (even breasts). In addition, I have the shortest torso and flattest spine possible.

Thanks for the advice so far!

[Dr. Liz]

I'd find a reputable LBS and go in for a full fitting. Ask around if you aren't certain about a good place to go. Yesterday I had a very extensive bike fitting done. The spouse is getting a fancy-schmancy custom made bike, and as part of the deal, I got a free fitting, both for my current bike, and the one I am inheriting from the spouse. The guy went through everything from cleat position to how I was pedalling, etc., etc. He also had this nifty bike fitting thing, where he could adjust everything, from top tube length to handle bar angle, to seat angle, and on and on.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6154/fitting1so3.jpg

http://img311.imageshack.us/img311/5301/fitting2pv6.jpg

And yes, we took pictures, because DH loves to photodocument almost every aspect of our lives...!:rolleyes:

The verdict was sort of amazing - my current bike just doesn't fit me. The top tube is way too long, the seat was too far back and too high, the handlebars were too big... it goes on and on. While it might sound kind of depressing (or like the guy was trying to sell a bike - which he wasn't - he knows that I'm holding out until next spring), it was actually quite fascinating. Luckily, many of the problems are fixable (not much I can do about the top tube, but they can move the handlebars around to take up some of the slack).

I pick up my modified bike today, and will go for the first ride tomorrow. I'll report back, but seeing how the spouse rode after his fitting on his current bike, I'm convinced that a professional fitting is well worth it - he was riding much more efficiently, and with a lot less effort/post-ride pain. I just hope it results in me picking up my average speed by a couple of miles an hour!

[Cassandra_Cain]

Freak? ;) Never~

This sounds like an obvious bike fit issue as the other ladies have pointed out. Really, I think one of the biggest, most common aspects of a bike fit (along with knee angle, and hand/shoulder angles) is having the balls of your feet, more or less, centered over the pedals - putting your quads in position to do a lot of work.

Right now, your bike position sounds far from that ideal set-up.

Can you go back to the original bike shop? Or is there a reputable LBS that you trust?

I'm positive you can fit just fine on a bike, whether it is the one you have now, is hard to say without knowing all the variables.

[Triskeliongirl]

I was never actually fitted on that bike. Will try to find a place that will do that for me. Didn't even know the seat was adjustable back and forth.

I have a long, very curved femur. If I'm standing up straight, my thighs bow out front further than any other body part (even breasts). In addition, I have the shortest torso and flattest spine possible.



Hmmm. Some things don't add up. If you have a long femur, you usually prefer to have the saddle further back, and have a bike with a shallow not steep seat tube angle..... Yet, you feel too far back, or is it that you are sliding forward to reach the bars, indicative of too long a top tube? Who sold you this bike? When did you buy it? I don't know how a LBS can sell a bike and not perform a fitting. Is it too late to exchange it if the frame size is wrong? I thought that is why treks are only sold in bike shops, so they can be fitted. Perhaps if the LBS won't help you trek will if you call them. There is a lot of adjustments that can be made, *if* the frame is in the right ball park size wise.

[run it, ride it]

Hmmm. Some things don't add up. If you have a long femur, you usually prefer to have the saddle further back, and have a bike with a shallow not steep seat tube angle..... Yet, you feel too far back, or is it that you are sliding forward to reach the bars, indicative of too long a top tube? Who sold you this bike? When did you buy it? I don't know how a LBS can sell a bike and not perform a fitting. Is it too late to exchange it if the frame size is wrong? I thought that is why treks are only sold in bike shops, so they can be fitted. Perhaps if the LBS won't help you trek will if you call them. There is a lot of adjustments that can be made, *if* the frame is in the right ball park size wise.

I was fitted pretty well last year for the same bike. Don't remember what frame size it was. When I finally actually got the bike in a different location, I asked if they'd fit me to make sure... which apparently consisted of me standing over the bike and them checking crotch space. They also sent me on a test drive, but honestly, all I knew was that it pedalled easier than my steel-framed 70s clunker so I was happy. When I took it in for a tune-up they mentioned that my handle-bars were angled 'aggressively' but didn't say if that was a bad thing--won't it keep wind resistance down?

What is an LBS? It's a 1-2 hour drive to any kind of bike store from where I live, so I may wait till I go back to the place I was originally fitted next month. They seemed to know what they were doing.

And about the femurs: because they curve way out in front of me I need to be far forward to get myself over my legs. Make sense? As far as top tube goes, I can easily reach the handlebars from wherever I sit--it's just that thrust I'm not getting when I sit back!

[run it, ride it]

I finally made it to the vvfa(very, very far away)bs to address these fitting issues.

Apparently my seat was too far forward and my handlebars were too low.

Needless to say, the adjustments created new and worse problems. Now my hamstrings and calves are straining to push and pull what I'm sure my quads did a better job of, and even more weight ends up in my hands--AND crotch. If I try to bend my arms at all, the muscle next to the spine in my lower back on the left side hurts so sharp I can't breathe (believe me, I'll tough through any pain. But breathing is necessary). I just feel like I'm braced against this thing. 'Technically' it's supposed to fit.

Question: is the front wheel hub supposed to be blocked from view when holding a) brake hoods, or, b) next to the top of the stem? The guy who fitted me said brake hoods--but with the old clunker bike, it's next to the stem.

Guess which bike DOESN'T hurt me? Clunker 10-speed from the 70s. I can completely give everything I have on that thing (not that it gets me anywhere fast) and I feel light, balanced. I use the handlebars to PULL, I can crouch down as low as I like with a flat painless back. Even after agony on the new bike. But according to newfound fitting logic, old bike is too small for me.

I'm 5'5" with a short torso and the new bike is 54cm. Old bike is 52cm.

New bike is supposed to fit! What is wrong here?

[emily_in_nc]

54 cm sounds like too large a bike for someone 5'5". Of course, we are all different, but I am 5'2.5" and ride a 46 cm bike. I would think a 51-52 cm bike would fit you better. Since your older bike does, that kinda confirms that theory. Every bike is different, every rider is different, but it certainly sounds like a fit problem here.

Is your bike a WSD? If not, it's even longer in the cockpit. My husband rides a 54 cm Trek 5200, and he's 5'10"! Most guys his height ride a 56 cm bike, but he prefers to be more upright and has shorter arms.

I hate to say it since it may mean you have to cut your losses and sell this bike, but it sounds like the frame is just too large. If that's the case, you'll only hurt yourself by riding it, and selling it and buying a smaller bike might be the best option you have. I wouldn't buy another bike without a GOOD, full fitting in your situation either.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

Emily

[SouthernBelle]

I'm pretty much the same size as you and I agree with Emily, 54 cm is probably too big.

I bought a 52 cm just yesterday and though the fit needs a little fine tuning I'm not having anywhere near the problems you are. At least on the maiden run yesterday. ;)

[KnottedYet]

I'm 5'8" and ride a 54 cm hybrid commuter. But on a road bike (different geometry) I ride 50 or 52.

Can you put your Trek and Clunker side-by-side and compare important points? Seat, cranks, bars... do they match? Use the bottom bracket (axle of the cranks) as your reference point, since you can't move that. Does it look like you could move the seat and bars of the Trek to make it match the clunker?

You have a unique body geometry, and clearly the standard "correct" bike fit isn't working for you. If the clunker's set-up IS working for you, it might make sense to use the clunker as your template.

[mimitabby]

I finally made it to the vvfa(very, very far away)bs to address these fitting issues.

Apparently my seat was too far forward and my handlebars were too low.

Needless to say, the adjustments created new and worse problems. Now my hamstrings and calves are straining to push and pull what I'm sure my quads did a better job of, and even more weight ends up in my hands--AND crotch. If I try to bend my arms at all, the muscle next to the spine in my lower back on the left side hurts so sharp I can't breathe (believe me, I'll tough through any pain. But breathing is necessary). I just feel like I'm braced against this thing. 'Technically' it's supposed to fit.

Question: is the front wheel hub supposed to be blocked from view when holding a) brake hoods, or, b) next to the top of the stem? The guy who fitted me said brake hoods--but with the old clunker bike, it's next to the stem.

Guess which bike DOESN'T hurt me? Clunker 10-speed from the 70s. I can completely give everything I have on that thing (not that it gets me anywhere fast) and I feel light, balanced. I use the handlebars to PULL, I can crouch down as low as I like with a flat painless back. Even after agony on the new bike. But according to newfound fitting logic, old bike is too small for me.

I'm 5'5" with a short torso and the new bike is 54cm. Old bike is 52cm.

New bike is supposed to fit! What is wrong here?
wow! you need to call those idiots and tell them that you feel worse, not better! (let your fingers do the walking!) tell them what you just told us.
I won't pretend to understand what your problem is; but i'll tell you this;
if you paid for the bike, they need to make it right. if you paid for the fit
you need to be able to go back in until you are comfy on that bike!

[run it, ride it]

That's it--I've had it with the new bike. Work today was AGONY after the commute there, and after the commute home I can barely sit up.

My crotch is numb, my hands aching, my back screaming in pain.

I didn't pay for the fit. I ASKED for the fit when I FIRST bought the thing and they said it was fine. I asked for a more intensive fit when I went back and after their tweaking (which they said would make things much better) I'm wondering if this is something like that story where the guy complains about his cat being too loud and the doctor tells him to get more and more animals until the original problem doesn't seem that bad compared to the 'remedy.'

I just plain can't reach the handlebars! I don't care what they tell me about where I should and shouldn't see the wheel hub; if I'm a freak of nature so be it.

I'm not sure what they can do for me at this point. I doubt they'll take back the frame after this much use. If I go back, they'll start talking dubiously about shortening the stem on the handlebars. They already think I'm a nutcase for wanting them closer.

[Triskeliongirl]

I also think from everything you say, that this bike is simply too big for you. I am 5'4" and while I can be fitted to a trek 50 cm guys bike or 51cm wsd bike, the top tubes on those bikes are still too long for me, so I ended up with a 44 cm terry bike to get the appropriately sized top tube I needed (like you I am long in the femur, short in the upper body, which also means I needed a bike with a shallow, i.e. 73 degree seat tube angle). If I were you, I would cut my losses by selling this bike. You will only injure yourself if you continue to ride it, and keep pouring money into trying to make it right but it will never be right. Then, I would learn everything I could about the older frame that fits. What seat tube angle does it has (can you download the specs), top tube length, head tube angle, and search the web to find a bike with specs in the same ballpark. When I couldn't find a bike that fit me, that is what I did, looked at what bikes worked for me in the past, and then looked for new ones that had similar geometries.

[Bikingmomof3]

That just sounds terrible. I am so sorry you are going through all this. I know we are all different sizes, and I fit a Trek 50cm perfectly. My DH who is a heck of a lot taller fits a 56cm. I could not believe it. I thought for certain he would be on a 60cm, since se has a long torso-yet he simply could not reach without discomfort on the 60cm. On a 56cm he is perfect.

My rambling has a point. I am afraid your bike, from all you have said is way too big. Would the bike store (and in my opinion they should) buy your bike back from you and sell you a bike that actually fits you? Seriously, bike riding should not be painful.

[esther231]

Trust your body and not the bike store.

I'd put money down that the bike is too big.

Hope you feel quickly.

[Petra]

I can relate to your problems, and tend to agree that the bike is too large for you. I am 5'7"" and ride a 51 cm frame, which fits perfectly. Another bike shop tried to sell me 56 cm frame.... my hands would never touch the handlebars. Also, I noted that you mention that you thrust your pelvis forward when running, you actually need to do the opposite thing in cycling and your core muscles might not like this at all and need some adapting and you therefore feel you are too far back. One thing you can do is align the front of your kneecap with the center of you pedal axle (drop a weight on a string from the kneecap to the floor and see where it hits your pedals, feet in 3-9 o'clock position). That gives you a good idea about butt-leg orientation on the bike. Certainly does nothing for a too long top tube.... good luck with finding the perfect bike.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I'm 5'5" with a short torso and the new bike is 54cm. Old bike is 52cm.

New bike is supposed to fit! What is wrong here?

Just a few thoughts that come to my mind....

I honestly don't see why a 2cm difference in frame size is going to suddenly mean the difference between total comfort and multiple excrutiating pains for you. I suspect something besides the 2cm frame size difference is at work here causing the pain issues.
Something to do with balance of weight, handlebars, handlebar position, leg/crank angle, seat position, whole body position.....etc. (and what was that "agressive angle" you say the bikeshop guy told you you had your handlebars set at?)
I am not sure that setting your seat all the way forward to get positioned "over" your long femurs is a good theory. Often we can get more whole body balance and power by having the seat BACK more, more behind the crank and pedals.

Anything the bike shop did you should give a few days to let your body try it. If your muscles have been used to a bad position for a while, then a new position will be pulling your body into a new conformation, which is bound to feel uncomfortable at first, and may cause muscles to object to the change for a while. People feel discomfort and pain differently as well. When we get a new saddle it can cause very real sitbone soreness for the first few days and then we feel very comfortable as our body adjusts. Commonly a new road bike feels "too high" to someone who has been used to a hybrid or mtn bike or comfort bike. After a week or two it doesn't seem too high at all. When I got my road bike I felt the handlebars were "too low and way too far away" and felt i was falling forward onto my hands. My hands hurt after riding. In reality I had not built up the torso strength needed to balance my body evenly over my seat, feet, and hands. After a month, it feels more comfortable and natural to me every day now, and my hands no longer hurt at all.

We should also remember that bike frame geometry and proportion varies, and certainly frames cannot be judged just by standover height. Not every 54cm frame is the same size. Rivendell frames for example have a different geometry, and so my 54cm Rivendell bike frame fits me perfectly at 5' 5'" height with an average woman's build. So no one here can tell me MY 54cm bike is "too big" for me at 5'5", because it's a totally perfect fit! ;)
Just my 2 cents.

[run it, ride it]

The seat adjustment was actually a positive move--I'm getting better power in the legs. However, it's moved me even further from the handlebars. They don't feel too low at all--they are too high, and too far forward.

I've ridden the bike in the new configuration as much as possible over the past week, but after 3km I can barely breathe for the sharp, sharp pain in my lower back. The original thrust problem is all but solved, and yes, my legs got used to a farther aft seat. I've said it before, I'll endure any pain for the sake of efficiency, but what I'm feeling in my back is immediate and crippling.

Thanks again for all the advice on this continuing journey. Monday I'm back to the bike store, so wish me luck, girls!

[mimitabby]

The seat adjustment was actually a positive move--I'm getting better power in the legs. However, it's moved me even further from the handlebars. They don't feel too low at all--they are too high, and too far forward.

I've ridden the bike in the new configuration as much as possible over the past week, but after 3km I can barely breathe for the sharp, sharp pain in my lower back. The original thrust problem is all but solved, and yes, my legs got used to a farther aft seat. I've said it before, I'll endure any pain for the sake of efficiency, but what I'm feeling in my back is immediate and crippling.

Thanks again for all the advice on this continuing journey. Monday I'm back to the bike store, so wish me luck, girls!

I don't know if you followed my comedy of errors from when I got my bike in May.
But I went through some of the same things as you. the woman I paid to fit me sized me up after she was done and said "you LOOK comfortable"
and I wasn't...
I went home and lowered my seat so that it was way too low for my legs
but all of a sudden, the back/hands issue went away. So i knew that
i could be fitted to the bike if they could just get the handlebars SOMEWHERE ELSE... and yesterday; at another bike shop, with advice from New Zealand... I finally got it right!

don't give up until it's right because riding in pain is no fun and is not worth it.
good luck
mimi

[Triskeliongirl]

If you are going to the shop tomorrow, why don't you also bring with you the bike that fits, and see if they can measure the old bike and then adjust the new one so the fits are similar.

[run it, ride it]

And after a week on the new bike with the new adjustments, I'm just not sure about the old one anymore. I rode it to work today and wouldn't you know, it gives me pain in the left shoulder, and now that I've been reformed from my running posture, the seat feels too far forward and too low. I have some more tweaking to do to!

I'll bring it along, anyway. If only to illustrate, "THIS IS WHERE HANDLEBARS BELONG!" I hope no one pulls anything trying to mount that beast on the trainer. I forgot how heavy the steel frame is!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

If you can stand it, give your new bike a few more days for your body to adjust to the new positions. I know you have some pain, but it might ease up and the longer you wait the more it will become clear where the problems are. New positions can be uncomfortable until your body adapts, and they **may** be really comfortable later!
I'm now holding off on installing the new shorter stem I had ordered after riding my new road bike for a week- I really was convinced the handlebars were WAY too far away at first, all my weight was on my hands, and my hands were going numb. The more I ride, the more comfortable I am though, and my body has gotten stronger and more balanced and now my weight seems to be naturally distributing itself between my hands, seat and feet! No more numb hands. Now my handlebars don't seem so far away at all, the bike doesn't seem impossibly tall anymore, etc. It just took a month of riding for my body to adjust to the new bike and the new positions. I am really comfortable now, I feel like I fit my bike perfectly, and am starting to ride with more power and grace than on the old "comfortable" upright hybrid loaner bike I started with. I NEVER would have thought this was possible, without actually going through it myself. It's weird to experience.

[run it, ride it]

The curious part of it is that I rode in a more aggressive position on the old bike than I do on the new one. I've got all the core strength in the world from running and Dressage, but I feel like I can't use it--like all the stress goes straight to that one spot in my back.

Sigh.. we'll adjust the handlebars... and this time I think I'll agree to the shorter stem. I've realized I don't want any lower handlebars; I raised the seat of the old bike up to where it SHOULD be and I have a serious downhill slope to me.

Just how seriously is my control going to be compromised by a shorter stem?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Just how seriously is my control going to be compromised by a shorter stem?

Not much, if it's a reasonable amount of change. Your body will adjust!

[run it, ride it]

Lisa, thank you so much for the continuing advice and especially the last-minute relief! I'm on my way to the bike store... will update!

[run it, ride it]

Thank god!

This time when I went to the bike store, the guy fitting me actually knew what he was doing. He said, "where are you hurting?" and I pointed to my lower back. He said, "I think I know why, just looking your bike."

The last guy had my seat much too far back, and raised it much too high. That explains the crotch numbness!

This guy spent a solid 40 minutes with me. When I said, "the handlebars feel too far away," instead of focusing on 'textbook fit,' he just looked at my flattened, stretched-out back and locked-out elbows and agreed.

He was so patient and attentive. I didn't feel like I had to defend myself, or like I didn't know anything. He actually cringed himself when I told him about the pain and said, "we'll keep working at this until the bike is painless. Riding should never hurt like that."

A shorter stem and a test ride later, the bike feels just perfect.

My back is slightly rounded, my elbows are bent, I can lean forward and rise up out of the seat with no trouble at all. My abs can finally carry the load my back was straining with. A few trips to the chiropractor and massage therapist should fix the damage already done. My crotch is content, hands are happy, and MAN do I ever get more power out of those clipless pedals when I can actually reach them!

The guy didn't charge me a cent, as well he shouldn't have! I dropped $1000 on a bike and asked more than once to be fitted--they finally got it right!

[Bikingmomof3]

Thank god!

This time when I went to the bike store, the guy fitting me actually knew what he was doing. He said, "where are you hurting?" and I pointed to my lower back. He said, "I think I know why, just looking your bike."

The last guy had my seat much too far back, and raised it much too high. That explains the crotch numbness!

This guy spent a solid 40 minutes with me. When I said, "the handlebars feel too far away," instead of focusing on 'textbook fit,' he just looked at my flattened, stretched-out back and locked-out elbows and agreed.

He was so patient and attentive. I didn't feel like I had to defend myself, or like I didn't know anything. He actually cringed himself when I told him about the pain and said, "we'll keep working at this until the bike is painless. Riding should never hurt like that."

A shorter stem and a test ride later, the bike feels just perfect.

My back is slightly rounded, my elbows are bent, I can lean forward and rise up out of the seat with no trouble at all. My abs can finally carry the load my back was straining with. A few trips to the chiropractor and massage therapist should fix the damage already done. My crotch is content, hands are happy, and MAN do I ever get more power out of those clipless pedals when I can actually reach them!

The guy didn't charge me a cent, as well he shouldn't have! I dropped $1000 on a bike and asked more than once to be fitted--they finally got it right!


YIPPEE! I am so happy for you! You have been through so much grief with "fittings". Now you can ride pain free. Enjoy. :)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

That is so GREAT!!!! I'm so happy for you!!!

Do keep in mind that your muscles will still have to change what they've been used to to yet another configuration, so don't be hasty to make changes too quickly, now that you are fairly comfortable!

Wonderful news!!!

[Triskeliongirl]

I am so happy for you! Do understand that if you do experience any discomfort, it may be a lingering injury from when you had the bad position. That may be why even your old bike felt wrong recently. So let your body heal, and give the new bike and position some time. It does sound like he finally got it right though, doesn't it? The really good news is that is the right size and it could be adjusted!!