MTB vs Road Averages

[mtbdarby]

Hey ladies,
I average 15 mph on my road bike but only 8mph on my mtb. I was wondering why I'm so much slower on my mtb and how do I increase my speed? The trails I usually mtb are hard, fast, technical single track with some ski trails in between. I'm even slower on the loose stuff!

Is it normal to ride mtb so much slower than road? Not that they necessarily are related, but I know I'm capable of riding faster. Maybe conditioning is a factor. I just want to put together a game plan since I have a whole year to get ready for the 24 hour race I couldn't ride this past weekend.

TIA!

[SadieKate]

Higher rolling resistance, terrain, bike weight, traction, knobbies, obstacles, body position, climbing, descending, flats, etc. Try riding your road bike on the trail. You'll be even slower than riding the mtb bike on the trail.

Simple physics. You're comparing apples to oranges.

You get faster in the same way - conditioning and learning better skills.

[mtbdarby]

SK, fair enough, but too vauge for me to incorporate into training. What specifically can I do training wise to increase my mtb speed? Remember, I'm confined to my hybrid bike on the trainer until my hand heals, and running. I want to increase my average from 8 to 11 and I have one year to do that.

The first thing I have on my list is to drop 15-20 pounds. That ought to make my bike lighter, lol. I ride a specialized rockhopper hardtail.

Renee, I was on the mad forcs website. Let me know when registration opens next year for the dirt retreat.

[velogirl]

One of the best ways to get faster on your mtb is to spend more time training on your road bike. Most good mtb'ers spend about 80% of their training time on the road because mtb riding is not a consistent aerobic effort (you go hard, you coast, you go hard, you coast, you stop, you go hard, etc). To go faster, you first need to build a large aerobic base and the best way to do that is to log long, consistent road miles at low- to mid-range intensity. After you've built an aerobic base, you can work on specific high-intensity workouts to improve your high-end fitness.

[Veronica]

I'd suggest using some of the Spinervals Dvds on the trainer. Yes, they have a road focus, but they will help your power output

I can tell you that my flat land average speed has increased from around 16 to 18+ mph since my self supported tour. Hauling 55 - 75 pounds around is GOOD for you.

V.

[bcipam]

Geez, I wish I could maintain 8mph on my mountain bike. If you are riding trail and if there is climbing involved, that's a good average.

On flat roads, I can maintain an average of 18 mph so I'm no slouch but on trail there is no way to roll that fast. My road tires are 23cm and my MTB tires big ole 2.2's - huge difference! Bike geometry and weight also are factors. My MTB fully just weighs more than my road bike (21#s v. 28#s).

If speed is what you want on trail, then work at it. Push each ride, do intervals. Each time you will get alittle faster!

[mtbdarby]

V - any recommendations on which spinnervals are good ones? I just got back from PT. Nine weeks post accident and I still have swelling in my wrist. There's enough frustration right there to make me want to sit down and cry.

bcipam, this particular race is about 850 ft of climbing per mile and it's a 13.5 mile course of technical singletrack and ski trails. To compete with the other women (not the experts), I'll have to average 10-11 mph. Right now I'm about slow to average. I can still do it for fun, but it's always nice to see improvement in your own personal best.

[sarahkonamojo]

technical rides slow me down.

today I deviated from a normal mtb ride for me, trying to increase the difficulty a notch. Well that notch was a little too big. One big wipe out and some hike-a-bike was a blow to my ego and set my average speed tumbling to 6.3 mph.

Ouch

I'll take the road bike out tomorrow...
sarah

[Veronica]

Ultra Leg Strength Builder is really good. It's done entirely in the big ring. I have to do a shorter tape first to get totally warmed up, so I do Zoot Challenge first. I have bad knees so I really want to be warm ready before I do Ultra Leg.

Since your goal is a ride with lots of climbing - The Uphill Grind would be good. I find it harder than Hillacious. But that's also a good one and would give variety.

If you need to build up your base, the Aero Base Builders are good. I like No Slackers just for variety.

I have a couple of recovery videos as well, a core builder one and a three hour one.

Doing these through the winter was how I was able to do a double century in March.

Good luck and I hope you heal up soon.

V.

[velogirl]

BTW, don't stress too much about your training avgs vs racing avgs. First, the race course might not be at all similar to your training trails, so it's hard to compare. But, if it's any consolation, I average about 8mph on my mtn bike training rides and average 12-13mph at most of my races. Different terrain, yes. But, during races you'll be motivated to a new level and will be able to ride harder and faster than you ever did during training.

[mtbdarby]

Velogirl, for some strange reason, I ave 8 during my training rides and 8 in my races. I'm so darn nervous before a race and it takes me so long to get into my groove that as I'm getting settled in, I'm done with my lap. That's why I thought a solo race would be better for me. I did a 6 hour one and still averaged 8! Next year I'd like to do a 4 person team and just hammer so that's why I want to get my speed up. And I do 80-90% of my training on the road. This race is my home turf, so it's what I ride the majority of the time - you'd think I'd have an advantage here:p

[carback]

. I'm so darn nervous before a race and it takes me so long to get into my groove that as I'm getting settled in, I'm done with my lap.

Do you warm up before you race? Either on a trainer or on the road? GO for about 20 minutes of spin effort with 3-5 quick bursts in there to get your heart ready to race and by the time you hit the start line, your muscles are warm, your heart's been elevated and is ready and you're off.

[SalsaMTB]

I think you need to evaluate what is slowing you down...

Is it the climbs that are killing you? Is it the distance? If so, maybe more road training or spinervals would be good.

What exactly is slowing you down? When you ride with people who are similar or a little better, people you will compete with, where do they gain in distance?

I think a BIG part of mountain biking is handling. Can you take the turns as fast, the downhills as fast, do you pick the best line, etc.? I know I hit my brakes more than DH in the tight switchbacks. He'll also plow between two trees that are about as wide as my handlebars, whereas I'll slow down a little, he will take more speed on the downhills. If you are slowing down for these reasons, not cardio, I would say hit the trails more and work on your handling.

[mtbdarby]

Salsa - I think you hit the nail on the head. It's hills and fear. I don't like soft, steep climbs, and rocky technical singletrack - I need to work on those. As for race day itself, it's nerves I need to work on.

Carback, good ideas. I don't bring my trainer but I do ride around spinning a bit before I start. I actually had much less nerves when I did my solo race. When it's a team I put more pressure on myself so I "don't let the team down", thinking. Maybe it's just experience I'm lacking. I've only been biking for a little over a year.

Thanks for the great ideas!

[madisongrrl]

Velogirl, for some strange reason, I ave 8 during my training rides and 8 in my races.

Hey Dar,

The Wems races seem very laid back and lack some of the adrenaline and chaos that you find during a WORS race. You should try to do the Wausau WORS race next year.....if you are truly interested in testing your hypothesis (I think it is easier to push yourself faster in a WORS race as compared to a WEMS race....different types of racing, with different mindsets) It is also a great way to test your limits so you learn how much you can push them.

If you raced a typical wisconsin XC race (instead of an endurance/marathon race) tomorrow, I think you find your average would be higher than 8mph and I would put my hard earned money on it! Again, a huge part of racing is learning how to pace yourself each race and learning how hard you can push yourself without blowing up. (And learning how to not be so nervous....doing an extensive preride usually helps to take the edge off....at least a little bit)


So, like Velogirl said, don't stress about your averages. They will change with the temperature and course conditions (as well as your nutrition, rest/recovery, hydration and how you feel in general).

[madisongrrl]

Hey ladies,
I average 15 mph on my road bike but only 8mph on my mtb. I was wondering why I'm so much slower on my mtb and how do I increase my speed? The trails I usually mtb are hard, fast, technical single track with some ski trails in between. I'm even slower on the loose stuff!

Is it normal to ride mtb so much slower than road? Not that they necessarily are related, but I know I'm capable of riding faster. Maybe conditioning is a factor. I just want to put together a game plan since I have a whole year to get ready for the 24 hour race I couldn't ride this past weekend.

TIA!

Since you haven't been at this as long as some of the crazy WI mountain bikers, you will find that mountain biking (as well as other endurance sports) is a cumulative fitness sport. Each year you will get better. Each year builds upon the previous. You have a whole year to train for 24 hours of nine mile so you can do it!

I think you need to realistically look at how many hours/week you can honestly dedicate to training. Like most people, you have a busy life - job, relationship, parent, pets etc. Once you figure how much time you can dedicate to fitness, then you can develop your training plan around that.

Like velogirl said, do a bunch of road/trainer training and build a nice aerobic base. Then in late winter/early spring you can really start gearing up on those interval drills and hill climbs which will make you faster.

Some other factors to consider are your tire selection and tire pressure. How wide and what kind of tread pattern are you running? (I know you don't have tubeless, but I think tubeless are the way to go for 9 mile forest...just look at how many people flatted their tubed tires at the WORS race this year. But if it's not in the budget, then it is not in the budget....) Over the next year you should try to figure how how little tire pressure you can run at 9 mile without getting pinch flats on your tubed tires. A lower pressure will also help absorb some of the shock on that hardtail of yours. Those rock sections at Nine Mile can really bounce you around and fatigue you.

Also, try to do some other WORS and WEMS races before 24-9. The more you race, the more you learn about racing and it will be easier to control your nerves. How long do you warm up before your races? For a 13-18 mile XC race, I'll warm up for 25 minutes before hand and I'll use a nice easy gear and a high cadence...then I'll ramp up a bit from there.

Sorry these thoughts are so random....but that's me.




Renee, I was on the mad forcs website. Let me know when registration opens next year for the dirt retreat.!

You bet!

[crazycanuck]

Thanks for posting this topic-You've answered my question basically from my other thread...


[QUOTE][One of the best ways to get faster on your mtb is to spend more time training on your road bike. Most good mtb'ers spend about 80% of their training time on the road because mtb riding is not a consistent aerobic effort (you go hard, you coast, you go hard, you coast, you stop, you go hard, etc). To go faster, you first need to build a large aerobic base and the best way to do that is to log long, consistent road miles at low- to mid-range intensity. After you've built an aerobic base, you can work on specific high-intensity workouts to improve your high-end fitness./QUOTE]
Thank you!

Now, if one does not have a trainer & spinerval videos and don't want to go that route what should i be doing on my road bike then???

Do i stay in the big ring?

I'm a bit confused and am wondering if i'm doing the right things while on my night rides....

Is 40-50km too short a ride to work on these skills??? (this is my night ride-it's dark by the time i go out)

c

[mtbdarby]

"Some other factors to consider are your tire selection and tire pressure. How wide and what kind of tread pattern are you running? (I know you don't have tubeless, but I think tubeless are the way to go for 9 mile forest...just look at how many people flatted their tubed tires at the WORS race this year. But if it's not in the budget, then it is not in the budget....) Over the next year you should try to figure how how little tire pressure you can run at 9 mile without getting pinch flats on your tubed tires. A lower pressure will also help absorb some of the shock on that hardtail of yours. Those rock sections at Nine Mile can really bounce you around and fatigue you."

Renee, I ride at 35-40 psi with whatever tires came on the rockhopper. I'll have to look that up for you. Knock on wood, I've never flatted. I think the WEMS race was a rockier trail and the expert loop went UPHILL on the rocks, thus a lot of pinched flats. How much does it cost to go tubeless?

As for time, I can committ 3-4 days a week to riding. Two days during the week for 1-1 1/2 hours and whatever I need to do on the weekends.

I agree there is a MUCH different atmosphere between WEMS and WORS races! What exactly is the definition of a XC race? I plan on doing my first century Sept 9th (Door County Century with Sue - assuming the hand heals), the quadrathalon for BS games the end of January, the Big Ring next June, as well as the GEARS race again (May), and the Dirt Retreat in July. Can I chat with you off line on developing a training plan? As for my warm ups, I don't think I'm doing enough - only 10-15 minutes in a low gear, higher cadence.

Crazy Canuck brought up a very good point, and a non existant skill in my arsenal - night riding. I will need to learn that as well before this race. Good thing I have a whole year to work on this:D[/QUOTE]

[madisongrrl]

Renee, I ride at 35-40 psi with whatever tires came on the rockhopper. I'll have to look that up for you. Knock on wood, I've never flatted. I think the WEMS race was a rockier trail and the expert loop went UPHILL on the rocks, thus a lot of pinched flats. How much does it cost to go tubeless?

It depends. I'm guessing that your wheels aren't tubeless ready so the cost would be considerable to go that route. I think you could do a conversion to tubeless with your standard wheels/tires and a conversion kit. I wouldn't necessarily worry about that, but it is a consideration for the future (with the next bike you buy) if Wausau is where you do most of your riding and racing.

I would worry about your tubed tire selection though. The stock tires sold with many mountain bikes aren't necessarily the ones you want to race XC on. A nice fast rolling tire is generally a good choice for many of the races around here (this might reduce the resistance on your legs, thus making you less fatigued and faster....and believe me, I learned this the hard way!) Many of the racers around here will run Kenda Karmas or Kozmiks and Maxxis Ignitors or Larsons amongst other tires.

When I was at Wausau, I think I ran my tire pressure at 31-32psi. I'm don't remember what trails we were on (Ho Chi Minh and others), but they had us climbing some technical rocky sections. I can see why so many people flatted.



As for time, I can committ 3-4 days a week to riding. Two days during the week for 1-1 1/2 hours and whatever I need to do on the weekends.

That is great! You can certainly accomplish your goals on 3-4 days/week.



I agree there is a MUCH different atmosphere between WEMS and WORS races! What exactly is the definition of a XC race?

In the NORBA sense, XC races are usually 30-40km and marathon races are usually 65-100km. A Wems races is very much similar in distance to a NORBA Marathon race. Our XC races here in wisconsin range from 10-25 miles depending on the class that you race in.



I plan on doing my first century Sept 9th (Door County Century with Sue - assuming the hand heals), the quadrathalon for BS games the end of January, the Big Ring next June, as well as the GEARS race again (May), and the Dirt Retreat in July. Can I chat with you off line on developing a training plan?

I think that is a great race/ride schedule. The WORS race, Gears, and the Dirt Retreat will be a nice lead up to 24-9 next July. We can certainly chat offline, but I'm no coach....



As for my warm ups, I don't think I'm doing enough - only 10-15 minutes in a low gear, higher cadence. You might want to warm up longer. Especially if you feel that it takes you a long time to warm up once you start racing. I easily warm up 20-25 minutes before a WORS race (unless it is a blistering 95+ degrees out, then I might scale it back)



Crazy Canuck brought up a very good point, and a non existant skill in my arsenal - night riding. I will need to learn that as well before this race. Good thing I have a whole year to work on this:D

Yeah, definitely get some off road night riding in. You are going to need some decent lights though....something I have yet to purchase. We also did some night riding at the dirt camp this year...nothing big, but enough to get a little taste of it.

[spokewench]

I'm just a normal old gal that has done a couple of 24 hour races on a 4 women team. It was great fun! The years that I did these races, I was racing mountain bikes on the local mountain bike series and did these races with others that were used to racing mountain bike races. I wasn't the fittest however cause our 24 hour race comes early in my season. I am training on a trainer cause it snows where I live in northern Arizona and it is perfect riding weather down in Tucson where the race is held.

The race experience really helps especially because there is a lot of passing involved, you passing others and them passing you. The ability levels are quite different.

I'm not the greatest endurance athlete so the challenge for me was to keep my speed up on my 4th laps, and to keep the motivation going at night. I was not ever totally successful at keeping my speed up later in my laps, but you have to realize that if you go out as hard as you can like you would race one lap in a race, you are eventually going to run out of energy for your later races. I'm sure there are some really fine athletes out there that can be real consistent, but you need to tune it down just a bit so that you can be consistent and last all of your laps.

Eating is a real hard thing and something on your first 24 hours that you probably will not have tested completely. I used a replacement drink on the bike along with my water/gus, etc. and always a recovery bottle after I got back from my laps. I would supplement with chicken, bread, peanut butter, canned peaches - things that work for me as what I call sort of easy soft food to digest. This is different for everyone.

Not everyone can sleep, but get off your feet and rest if you can't sleep!

If you are doing this race on a team, make sure going in that most everyone is on the same wavelength. It is no fun to get there and have someone screaming at you that you didn't ride fast enough on a lap! Things happen, flats, body flats, etc. that you can foresee and everyone knows you are doing the best you can do and really that is all you or anyone else can expect. If you can find a good team - with the right attitude, IT IS THE GREATEST EXPERIENCE EVER!

Don't forget to get some SO's or something like that to help you work on your bikes between laps, help feed you, etc. It makes all the difference! My husband was a trouper par excellence!

If you are doing this solo, all the more power to you!

:D