This looks bad for Floyd.......

[Triskeliongirl]

FROM CYCLINGNEWS.COM:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul31news

Exogenous testosterone in Landis' A sample

By Hedwig Kröner
Floyd Landis (Phonak) earlier this year, at Paris-Nice
Photo ©: Luc Claessen (Click for larger image)

The aftermath of 2006 Tour de France winner Floyd Landis' positive A probe for performance-enhancing hormone testosterone is far from over. Germany's public TV stations ARD and ZDF have since questioned their transmission of cycling races if the sports biggest problem is not solved, and the German cycling federation called for an anti-doping law in Germany on Saturday, one day prior to the ProTour one-day race Vattenfall Cyclassics in Hamburg.

To explain the positive doping test result after stage 17 of the Tour de France, which he won after an impressive solo ride in high mountains, Landis has argued that his relatively high level of testosterone was naturally produced by his own body. The analytical basis for the test being the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone, normally averaging 1:1, a suspicion of doping is being issued if this ratio is higher than 4:1.

In Landis' case, German media have on Sunday rumoured the result to be 11:1. "In our medical files appear not only blood levels, but also our testosterone status," said professional cyclists' representative Jens Voigt before the race. "It shouldn't be hard to find out if Landis is telling the truth."

But, much more important than this seems to be that the tests performed on Landis' A sample included an Isotope Ratio Mass Spectrometry (IRMS) procedure, used to determine whether the testosterone is exogenous (contained within, but originating from outside the body) or endogenous (produced by the body itself). In the case of the American, L'Equipe reported that the analysis found testosterone of artificial origin.

Jose Maria Buxeda, Landis' attorney, contests the detection method via IRMS. "It's not reliable," he told French L'Equipe. "Most laboratories do not use it. In fact, the laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry must be the only one still using it." In the same edition of the paper, however, Christiane Ayotte, director of the anti-doping laboratory in Montreal, Canada, disagrees. "We use the method regularly," she said. "Moreover, more than half of the WADA-accredited labs perform it successfully. I'd even say that an IRMS which gives a synthetic result is very hard to contest. It's not a method that anyone can apply but the LNDD (Laboratoire de Chatenay-Malabry) has totally proven itself in this domain."

It has been pointed out that Landis' thyroid problems, the treatment of his inflamed hip with corticosteroids, as well as drinking alcohol on the night prior to stage 17, could be factors which could have affected his testosterone levels. "As soon as an athlete is controlled positive for testosterone, the same old stories come up," Ayotte continued. "The increase, even if natural, of the ratio testosterone/epitestosterone cannot, in any case, be explained by taking thyroid hormones or corticosteroids. Alcohol can in fact influence it, but only with women, and only for three or four hours."

[Kalidurga]

German media have on Sunday rumoured the result to be


L'Equipe reported that the analysis found testosterone of artificial origin.


I have trouble with a rumour being spread by German media and with anything coming from L'Equipe. I'm sticking with my rational side and waiting for more information, from more reliable sources, before I decide how I feel about this issue. As far as I'm concerned, this whole thing is still totally up in the air.

[mimitabby]

I have trouble with a rumour being spread by German media and with anything coming from L'Equipe. I'm sticking with my rational side and waiting for more information, from more reliable sources, before I decide how I feel about this issue. As far as I'm concerned, this whole thing is still totally up in the air.

What she said.

[Raindrop]

Exactly as the preceding posts indicated. The European press and the bicycling community at large tends to hate American cyclists. For that reason alone I await further results. Publishing this type of press is like publishing only FOX news reports.

[Bad JuJu]

I tend to go with the concept favored by our justice system (at least nominally): innocent until proven guilty--emphasis on the word "proven."

[alpinerabbit]

Exactly as the preceding posts indicated. The European press and the bicycling community at large tends to hate American cyclists. For that reason alone I await further results. Publishing this type of press is like publishing only FOX news reports.


Oh please.... stop that, everyone. I've seen it in the other Floyd&Doping threads, and IMHO, it's offensive to non-USAnians.

If your patriotism has been scratched, that has nothing to do with Europeans vs. Americans.

Honestly... most people like Floyd, many people admire Lance. Do you think half the cyclists I saw on the last day of the tour were wearing Phonak gear out of Anti-Americanism?

I'd love to see him get off the hook but it's just so unlikely.

[Kalidurga]

If your patriotism has been scratched, that has nothing to do with Europeans vs. Americans.

I agree with you there, I think a bit too much is made of this angle.


I'd love to see him get off the hook but it's just so unlikely.

Unfortunately, you may be right. But we don't know that yet. I'm still waiting to see what not only Landis, but also Ulrich and Basso, come forth with to counter these accusations. There's a long way to go before any of this is proved either positively or negatively.

[Triskeliongirl]

I *hope* its not true, but this report just made me lose my hope. When I thought the only problem was the RATIO of Test to Epi, I thought there was hope, lots of good reasons why it may be so. But, if they really have mass spec data suggesting the testosterone was synthetic, it does look bad. I agree, I would rather hear it from the UCT, but so far in this matter all that has emerged first in the popular press FIRST, i.e. there is a rider with a failed A test, the rider is Floyd, etc. is true, so I thought folks might find this latest report interesting. And it did come from a cycling website, not the popular press. Does anyone know (I really don't) that cyclingnews.com in any less reliable than the other cycling websites like velonews and eurosport? Of course, I believe its innocent until proven guilty, but this information, if accurate, does not look hopeful IMHO.

[alpinerabbit]

I'm still waiting to see what not only Landis, but also Ulrich and Basso, come forth with to counter these accusations.

Absolutely not only Floyd.

If Ivan and Jan had any way to prove they never associated with Fuentes, they would have come forward a long time ago... With a DNA sample to prove none of the blood bags are theirs. Just stick a Q-tip in your mouth, there you go.

I am pretty sure that beautiful Ivan (my favorite)'s career is OVER. Ullrich too - he is too old to survive a 2 year suspension. (They are talking about making it 4 years)

See, no anti-American feelings. They get caught, too bad for them, bye bye.

[alpinerabbit]

http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7933/200613cp4.jpg

Translation:

"Of course my list is shorter: it contains only those who are NOTeligible."

#1 says "doping idiot 2006"

[crazycanuck]

I have to say i agree with Alpinerabbit-I was waiting for someone overseas to pipe up & say something before i jumped in....

(I understand what you're on about-Trying being Canadian where everyone reminds you about Ben Johnson :o )

c

[tulip]

I'm with alpinerabbit, too. Floyd was a big hit during the Tour, in Europe (even in France, <GASP>!)

I don't understand all the science; I doubt that many of us do. I also don't understand why some folks assume that the testing must be flawed just because it's carried out in Europe (where the Tour takes place, remember?)

[mimitabby]

i don't think that anyone is presuming that the test is faulty because it was done in Europe; many of us related stories about bad lab tests done
in the US of A.

[Kalidurga]

I also don't understand why some folks assume that the testing must be flawed just because it's carried out in Europe

I can't speak for others but, personally, my problem is with the specific lab, not the country in which that lab is located. I cannot understand why they continue to have tests carried out in the lab that has ties to L'Equipe. This lab has leaked information to the press before (the Lance hoopla), and it was concern for that happening again that led the UCI and Phonak to make this public before the B test was processed.


If Ivan and Jan had any way to prove they never associated with Fuentes, they would have come forward a long time ago... With a DNA sample to prove none of the blood bags are theirs. Just stick a Q-tip in your mouth, there you go.

Yeah, this bothers me, too. Though it also bothers me that halfway through the tour, the Spanish police had still not given any documentation of their findings to Ulrich's lawyers. The issue in their cases wasn't blood samples, it was Fuentes' hand-written and coded notes that seemed to implicate them. I haven't seen anymore news reports on this. Does anyone know whether Ivan or Jan have gotten full disclosure of the documentation to be able to put together a defense?

If and when Floyd's B test comes back positive, I truly hope that he'll be allowed the opportunity to try and prove that whatever imbalance there might be is naturally ocurring. I also hope that whatever defense any of these cyclists puts together won't turn into the circus that Tyler Hamilton's did.

[RoadRaven]

Oh come on peoples...

What happened to innocent til proven guilty
Floyds performance and motivation to win is possibly a huge part of this... he had been training to win for ten years, and this may have been his only shot at it.

As someone pointed out in another thread, levels of testosterone rise in people just WATCHING a sport in telly!


The same day the above article was posted, this one was too.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2006/testosterone_testing
It seems much more impartial and definately more factual. It is written by a cycling news doctor - not by a reporter seeking to sell newspapers.
Heres a key paragraph:

This is because the form of the hormone that is available for exogenous administration is chemically identical to what is produced naturally in the body. Only a small fraction (about one percent) of the testosterone produced every day is excreted in the urine. Blood and urine levels increase after taking testosterone. But because the half-life of testosterone is very short, about one hour, blood and urine levels return to normal very quickly. Thus, measuring testosterone levels in urine is not an effective means of detecting steroid abuse.

Please note the bit that says that artificial and natural testosterone are virtually identical.

Now if it was blood doping, or EPO or something like that - well, yes, I would be doubting.
But this is not, its a question mark on a dubious test that has possible natural explainations ... and it has not been verified yet.

And again - another question, WTF would Lance step into the breach BIG TIME unless he was sure - he has too much to lose for himself, his fan base and LIVESTRONG.

Lets stop being so negative - surely you would all want a trial by jury too - not this media spew that is happening... tainting everybody with bile?

[mimitabby]

RoadRaven
what did Lance say about this?

the test to check the carbon isotope in the testosterone takes 2 weeks..
so they do not have the answer to that one yet, right?

[RoadRaven]

mimi... I was just referring to the way in which Armstrong is responding to media questions about Landis...

From memory, Armstrong didn't say boo in support/defence of Tyler Hamilton whom he also rode with for a while in Discovery..

For example, on Larry King Live...

"I thought it was unlike anything I'd ever seen in cycling and I mean that in a good way. I thought it was -- I thought he was tough. I thought the guys behind, who were chasing him, didn't do a great job but he showed a lot of heart and gut and determination that day."

"If we ever suspected anything, if there was suspicious behavior or anything to lead us to believe he was a cheater, then we would have parted ways long before we did. And when he did leave he left for a better offer from another team and we had to respect that."

"But above and beyond everything else he was -- he was one of the toughest young kids that I'd ever come across and we could see that. I mean we'd bring the kids to training camp and I was trying to get fit and trying to win a Tour and you had this young kid with this incredible tough attitude that was challenging me on every hill and at every opportunity. So, we knew then that he was -- he was our kind of guy and he was a tough bike rider."

[Cassandra_Cain]

I don't pretend to understand all the science, tests, and details - biology wasn't my subject.

So let me pose this....if a guy has naturally high testosterone, then wouldn't it always be higher than 'normal/average'? Rather than just spike up at some odd moment? Wouldn't said rider with high testosterone always or at least most of the time, test above the 4:1 ratio they've established?

Also, I'm reading the Landis and his lawyers are saying they don't expect the B sample to be any different than the A sample. I'm inferring if that's the case then he will lose the TDF title and possibly prompt a long, drawn-out appeal process.

The biggest loser in all this, as Oscar Pereiro mentioned a few days ago, has to be the entire sport of cycling.

[maillotpois]

This is my question - why did Lance jump into this when he didn't say anything about Tyler??? He's not racing now and he was then is maybe one reason. They courted/are courting Floyd for Discovery. Another reason?

I know Tyler's "defense" now seems a bit silly in retrospect - but bear in mind that when it was all coming down - that was a test with no proven track record, no published false positive rate, etc. And Tyler looks as sweet and honest as The Floyd. (And sure I'm bitter 'cause I believed Tyler til about 2 - 3 weeks ago when they published that fax to Haven about he bill for all of Tylers drugs as part of Operacion Puerto....)

So - even if LA is not racing, whatever - he still has a lot to lose by coming out so strongly if it turns out The Floyd is not clean.

So what's up??!?!?

[Nanci]

There's a good article about Floyd in the New York Times today.

http://tinyurl.com/jd2ya

Nice how the lab is going to close for vacation! How convenient. (They have agreed to run his test, though.) And nice how they claim to have not received his first request to test the B sample- and he has a five business day limit from the release of the A sample results to request that. Guilty or not- that lab seems very shady to me.

The article says that if the samples contain, what's the word, exogenous? testosterone, he can still try to prove that it came from say, sabotage or contaminated dietary supplements.

Here's an interesting thought from the article I linked to in the women/doping thread: (from 2004) I think the last sentence will apply to Floyd, too.

"Cycling even has its own Barry Bonds, in the person of American star Tyler Hamilton, whose Athens gold medal carries a giant question mark thanks to a positive test for an illegal blood transfusion—an old-fashioned doping technique that seems to have come back into vogue, ironically, because of more sophisticated tests for EPO, the endurance athlete's drug of choice. Hamilton is keeping his gold medal, thanks to a botched testing protocol, but he faces sanctions for a second positive test during the Tour of Spain. Like Bonds, Hamilton insists that he's innocent despite a steaming mound of evidence to the contrary. (Unlike Bonds, however, Hamilton is widely regarded as a nice guy, which is why many in cycling continue to believe him.)"

[alpinerabbit]

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/9557/prsentation1ju5.png

Insert cyclist of choice.... I wasn't gonna add "Mr. Landis", but in a few days....

[Bike Goddess]

Restrec- A little coaching here- please when you are making comments make sure you consider the source. The lab that is doing the testing has NOT published its results. Those of us who have been having this conversation are waiting for them to be published. Then we can come to our own conclusions.

You are entitled to your own opinions, BUT I would suggest you wait a few more days before coming down with the hatchet.

Who are you, anyway???

[Dogmama]

Didn't some of the "authorities" also say that there was no possibility he could register such high testosterone levels so quickly even if he had been doping? I thought they said that these blood levels build up slowly.

Additionally, every cyclist who has been charged with this type of "doping" (technically it isn't doping) has appealed and won. So, let's not be so quick, Restrec, to jump to conclusions.

The test could have been flawed. 50% of all doctors graduated at the bottom half of their class.:p

[chickwhorips]

Additionally, every cyclist who has been charged with this type of "doping" (technically it isn't doping) has appealed and won. So, let's not be so quick, Restrec, to jump to conclusions.

i agree and still have hope.

who knows what exactly the "A" sample said. all we have to compare it to is the "B" sample that we don't have results from. even then we won't have all the details on what the results were. just hope they hurry up. all the suspense is killing me.

[Petra]

...doping seems to be an international endeavor these days, and not in any way connected to nationality. And Jan certainly did not get a good press after the connection to a spanish doctor was published, its not European against American riders, and the acceptance of doping seems to be growing (albeit well hidden from public awareness in many cases) even in the ranks of amateur sport (according to reports in a german weekly newspaper). this is truly sad, and such an amazing event like the TdF would be wonderful to watch even with a slightly reduced average speed in the absence of doping....

P.S. August is the month of holidays in France, nearly everybody leaves to go somewhere, Paris is deserted (good time to go on holidays there...), that is the reason why the lab is closing for a few weeks.

[jpbayarea]

I have to add that it's impossible to imagine what happens to A body when
that body has been raced up 5 mountain stages in such glory and exhilaration as was Floyd Landis that day of his historic ride. I feel quite sure that something amazing happened that day. I hate to get all 'woo-woo' here but in such a moment as that race was for him, with nothing to lose and everything
to gain by focusing, hydrating, pushing to the very limit of what is possible for a human being....it's just possible that his SOUL was electrified by the experience and his entire body, organism, biochemistry and all functions of that body responded by going haywire.....

As someone else said, testosterone rises just in watching something such as this. How often have you experienced a strong desire to go out and RIP up the road after some exhiliarating moment of bike racing and ridden like never before, simply in the thrill of that excitement.

I refuse to judge him as a doper. I do not believe it, though I don't think we will ever know. I assume his B sample will also come back positive (of course) and he'll be found guilty, will appeal, will WIN that appeal, but his name is forever tainted despite it being unlikely that he did anything wrong. The system is foul, the lab is foul and the French do not want an American to win the Tour again. The people who cheered are different from those behind the scenes.

I know we are all very upset by all this and it's so unfortunate but I just choose to go with my gut and believe this man. He is just not dumb enough to do that when he knew he'd be tested and he knew the climate of the race and the sport. And still, I fear and believe no good will come of this, unfortunately, no matter what the truth is.

[jeannierides]

I refuse to judge him as a doper. I do not believe it, though I don't think we will ever know.
I know we are all very upset by all this and it's so unfortunate but I just choose to go with my gut and believe this man. He is just not dumb enough to do that when he knew he'd be tested and he knew the climate of the race and the sport. And still, I fear and believe no good will come of this, unfortunately, no matter what the truth is.

my thoughts exactly.:(

[withm]

As more stories come in it looks like Floyd Landis is toast, but I have not
seen anyone raise this question:

They keep looking for for a source of elevated testestorne. But maybe there
is a cause of reduced epitestosterone?

Could it be possible that the dehydration and bonking the day before, coupled with the extreme effort on the day of the comeback is responsible for a depletion in the epitestosterone stores, thus causing the high ratio of
testestorne to epitestosterone?

Can anyone tell me why this is, or os not plausible?

[latelatebloomer]

My gut feeling is that something is weird here, and that it just makes no sense that Landis would be so stupid as to dope, KNOWING he'd be tested. He seems like the kind of person who'd rather ride clean and finish lower than take the podium dirty, and a lot of people who've known him seem to say the same. I haven't been following cycling for long, and you all know that I just loved seeing a Pennsylvanian wail the Alps - but this guy has a reputation for being smart, being honest, and riding like the devil on horseback.

True, isn't it, that it would only take one bad apple with access to contaminate samples, or even contaminate what a rider is eating or drinking...? With all the money involved, I just wonder. 'Cause something keeps bugging me.

[tprevost]

I have to add that it's impossible to imagine what happens to A body when
that body has been raced up 5 mountain stages in such glory and exhilaration as was Floyd Landis that day of his historic ride. I feel quite sure that something amazing happened that day. I hate to get all 'woo-woo' here but in such a moment as that race was for him, with nothing to lose and everything
to gain by focusing, hydrating, pushing to the very limit of what is possible for a human being....it's just possible that his SOUL was electrified by the experience and his entire body, organism, biochemistry and all functions of that body responded by going haywire.....

As someone else said, testosterone rises just in watching something such as this. How often have you experienced a strong desire to go out and RIP up the road after some exhiliarating moment of bike racing and ridden like never before, simply in the thrill of that excitement.

I refuse to judge him as a doper. I do not believe it, though I don't think we will ever know. I assume his B sample will also come back positive (of course) and he'll be found guilty, will appeal, will WIN that appeal, but his name is forever tainted despite it being unlikely that he did anything wrong. The system is foul, the lab is foul and the French do not want an American to win the Tour again. The people who cheered are different from those behind the scenes.

I know we are all very upset by all this and it's so unfortunate but I just choose to go with my gut and believe this man. He is just not dumb enough to do that when he knew he'd be tested and he knew the climate of the race and the sport. And still, I fear and believe no good will come of this, unfortunately, no matter what the truth is.




.... what she said....

t~

[Dogmama]

I googled "testosterone/epitestosterone" and found an article that talks about drinking alcohol increasing testosterone levels. (I dismissed all articles from the general media and focused on peer review studies.) The way I figure it, he would have to drink 4.69 ounces of alcohol to increase the testosterone level. They are talking about pure alcohol, so 100 proof whiskey would be 9.38 ounces. Disclaimer - I did this from metric conversion charts on the web - if there is a scientist in the house, maybe she can check?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3390919&dopt=Abstract

I couldn't find a direct link talking about how quickly injected testosterone clears the body, but most articles suggested that testosterone would need to be injected for at least 2 weeks to have any positive affect on performance. As was said previously (and forgotten quickly) just one shot of testosterone won't make him fly like he did in stage 17.

People need to quit getting their exercise by jumping to conclusions. This guy's career is on the line. We should know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is guilty. Thus far, we don't.

[tomgrrrl]

I too have the feeling that Landis did not dope....something is strange about this entire incident...as many have said previously, it doesn't "add up" for a number of reasons.

[DDH]

Well, I tend to believe in the person until the end. If they prove it beyond any doubt then that is when, and only then will I believe he did anything wrong.
I don't think it is fair to guess and speculate on what might have happened or automatically assume the worst of a person. I'm not talking about anyone here, just to clarify, so I don't offend anyone. I am meaning the media and other people directly involved speaking out of turn. His livelihood and career are on the line here so somebody better be darn sure he is guilty and as it stands even if he isn't, the question has already been placed in peoples minds and someone will always question it.