argh... the continuing saga of bike fit

[mimitabby]

Okay, i got my bike back, the beautiful Bianchi Veloce with the New and Improved fork...

I have the traditional female problem of long legs and short torso (well, relatively long legs, i am 5'3 1/2" tall)

BUT My hands still hurt...

I still feel like i can't let go of the handlebars to signal.. (I usually force myself)

Do I want to give up on this bike? (NO!)

My DH says to give it a little time.

I am thinking the value of this bike is going down while I am trying to get used to it.

My back feels good, this bike really moves nicely; except the steering is shaky
sometimes it seems like.

I don't want to buy a bike with two different sized wheels.
I would consider a bike with 650's on it.
I am not sure i even like road bike handlebars at all!!

I like having a light fast bike, because I live in hilly country. i can't even commute without going up a fairly steep hill.

Doesn't somebody make a bike like this? :eek:
Thank you all for listening. (maybe i should have posted this in to whom this may concern thread)
mimi

[spokewench]

Okay, Mimitabby! I'm a little confused - you have a nice bike (with a new fork). What is the difference between the old and new fork? What were you trying to fix by buying it?

It kind of sounds like you might be too stretched out when you say you are the normal gal, long legs, short torso! You say the bike is twitchy in the front end?

It's always hard to tell someone what to do with a bike if you don't see them on it. But, how long is your top tube? How long is your stem? What size is the bike? Do you have a lot of seatpost showing? Is it a compact frame?

Of course, they make bike to fit you that are not tug boats!

I'm 5'4" (sorry, i'm not real short torsoed), but I have always been able to ride a regular men's frame bike (not all of them) but some. I have the best luck with the new compact frames. They seem to fit a woman of our size better. You should be able to get a light bike to fit with a few adjustments, seat position, stem length, etc., etc.

Tell me some more so maybe we can help! Thanks jan

P.s: Sometimes twitchy in the front end means you are hanging on for dear life and if you get your weight off the handlebars, RELAX, support yourself with your core and bend your elbows, mysteriously your bike isn't twitchy anymore! A lot of girls that have horses all talk about how their instructors used to tell them to keep their heels down! Well, I rode horses and taught riding for years so I'm quite familiar with this. On the bike, the term is "bend your elbows, relax your shoulders, get the weight off your handlebars!"

:)

[FreshNewbie]

Looks like I have ongoing problem with saddles and you have ongoing problem with your bike, isn't it frustrating ? The fact that you are saying that you can't let go off your handlebars to signal might be because you are either putting too much weight on your front wheel or not putting enough weight. Did they adjust fitting after they put new fork ? Could it be just not being used to the bike? I know when I got my new bike which is half as light as my old one, it took couple of rides to be able let go off the bars because I was not used to bike being so light. Another thing, if it is so bad that it's not comfortable to ride, maybe you should consider selling it and buying something else? I know it will be pain in the ... umm you know what, but in the end you will feel better. I hope you solve it soon

[Veronica]

Heck my bike felt quite strange on my first ride after the Nova Scotia tour. Remove the handlebar bag and the trailer and wow the bike was twitchy! It and I are back to normal now. But anything new or different can feel weird.

V.

[mimitabby]

Okay, Mimitabby! I'm a little confused - you have a nice bike (with a new fork). What is the difference between the old and new fork? What were you trying to fix by buying it?

i bought a used bike. the fork was short so i bought a new one to bring up the handlebars a little. i went and paid for a professional fit.

[QUOTE=spokewench]
It kind of sounds like you might be too stretched out when you say you are the normal gal, long legs, short torso! You say the bike is twitchy in the front end?

yes
a kind person on here actually analyzed me based on all the things she had done and we agreed that the top tube was a little too long for me; so i hoped that the new piece between the tube and the handlebars and the new fork
would take care of that.. nope.



It's always hard to tell someone what to do with a bike if you don't see them on it. But, how long is your top tube? How long is your stem? What size is the bike? Do you have a lot of seatpost showing? Is it a compact frame?


the bike is a 49 (sorry bianchi's website is down so i can't get the specs)and I have plenty of seatpost showing; i have a 30" inseam
(bike measurement)





P.s: Sometimes twitchy in the front end means you are hanging on for dear life and if you get your weight off the handlebars, RELAX, support yourself with your core and bend your elbows, mysteriously your bike isn't twitchy anymore!


I WILL TRY this tonight on my way home!


On the bike, the term is "bend your elbows, relax your shoulders, get the weight off your handlebars!"

:)

the lady at the LBS told me that actually...
i will keep trying

[DebW]

How long have you been riding this bike? Steering does feel different depending on the geometry of the front end: head tube angle, fork rake, and trail. A steep head tube angle with little trail will feel twitchy, especially at low speed. It should feel stable at high speed but steer nimbly. You may simply prefer a different frame geometry, though you could probably get used to it in time (or has it been long enough already?). I used to switch between 2 bikes with different geometry and it took a month or more to get used to the twitchier bike. A bike built for touring would have a longer wheelbase and more stable steering.

Or perhaps the frame geometry and your size are forcing your handlebars too far behind the front axle. That's a problem you won't overcome.

[mimitabby]

How long have you been riding this bike?

Or perhaps the frame geometry and your size are forcing your handlebars too far behind the front axle. That's a problem you won't overcome.


i got the bike about 2 months ago, but much of this time it has been in the shop or waiting to be set up. I just got it back wednesday. i've been riding a
hybrid in the meantime..

FORCING my handlebars behind the front axle?? That sounds interesting, please explain?

[mimitabby]

Looks like I have ongoing problem with saddles and you have ongoing problem with your bike, isn't it frustrating ? The fact that you are saying that you can't let go off your handlebars to signal might be because you are either putting too much weight on your front wheel or not putting enough weight. Did they adjust fitting after they put new fork ? Could it be just not being used to the bike? I know when I got my new bike which is half as light as my old one, it took couple of rides to be able let go off the bars because I was not used to bike being so light. Another thing, if it is so bad that it's not comfortable to ride, maybe you should consider selling it and buying something else? I know it will be pain in the ... umm you know what, but in the end you will feel better. I hope you solve it soon

Yeah, one of the reasons I bought a Bianchi is that they have good resale
value!!
I might have to sell it.

[greenmachine]

Hi Mimi,

I understand your frustrations! I'm 5'7" with the "longest inseams on the planet" says my frame-builder. And I have a short torso.

The ONLY bike that fits me is one with a really short top-tube, and long seat-tube, which makes for some really steep angles. A 24" front wheel was the only option; no steering clearance with a 700c or 27". When my bike was made in the late 80's, there wasn't even a Terry bike that would fit me. That may have changed since then though.

Even after having my fitting done, I have tweaked a bit with my own position.

How is your handlebar height? Rivendell says a good starting point is to start with the handlebar tops level to the top of your saddle height, but the bars shouldn't be more than 5cm lower than the top of your saddle.

HTH,
Judy

[mimitabby]

Hi Mimi,

I understand your frustrations! I'm 5'7" with the "longest inseams on the planet" says my frame-builder. And I have a short torso.

The ONLY bike that fits me is one with a really short top-tube, and long seat-tube, which makes for some really steep angles. A 24" front wheel was the only option; no steering clearance with a 700c or 27". When my bike was made in the late 80's, there wasn't even a Terry bike that would fit me. That may have changed since then though.

Even after having my fitting done, I have tweaked a bit with my own position.

How is your handlebar height? Rivendell says a good starting point is to start with the handlebar tops level to the top of your saddle height, but the bars shouldn't be more than 5cm lower than the top of your saddle.

HTH,
Judy

Judy, I saw a gal built like you the other day. SUCH LEGS!!!
my handlebars are a good inch higher than the saddle now. not sure which bars should be more than 5cm lower than the top of the saddle though.

[tulip]

When you're riding, relaxed as you can be, and you look down, do your handlebars (the flat, top part) mask the front hub, or is the front hub in front of or behind the top of the bars?

This is a little rule of thumb, and is not exact, but generally you want the front hub to be about masked by the handlebars when you are looking down. A little variation either way is probably okay, but alot...that could tell you that your top tube is too long (or too short, depending on if the hub is visible behind or in front of the bars). If the top tube is simply too long for you, you could try a shorter stem and/or push your seat forward (but you also want to make sure there is a straight line down from kneecap to pedal axle). They should have measured this with a pendulum when you got the pro fit.

Best to try this on a trainer, by the way (with the front wheel elevated so the top tube is level--use a phone book or two under the front wheel and a spirit level).

EDIT, I'm 5'6 with long legs. I've only recently had the EUREKA bike, after years of racing and riding and being uncomfortable on, it turns out, too-big bikes. My new road bike is 49cm, which most people would say is way too small for me. But it works wonders! Everyone is proportioned differently; you'll get the right combo eventually.

[DebW]

Mimi, check your headset also, especially if this feeling just appeared since the new fork was installed. I know your LBS just installed it and it should be adjusted properly, but if it's a bit loose you'll get that "I can't let go" feeling. Hold the back wheel off the ground and bounce it on the front wheel. Any rattling in the headset and it's too loose. Or if you can wiggle the fork in relation to the frame even a teeny tiny bit. Or if it flops side to side too easily (subjective, but try comparing with another bike).

[mimitabby]

When you're riding, relaxed as you can be, and you look down, do your handlebars (the flat, top part) mask the front hub, or is the front hub in front of or behind the top of the bars?

This is a little rule of thumb, and is not exact, but generally you want the front hub to be about masked by the handlebars when you are looking down. A little variation either way is probably okay, but alot...that could tell you that your top tube is too long (or too short, depending on if the hub is visible behind or in front of the bars). If the top tube is simply too long for you, you could try a shorter stem and/or push your seat forward (but you also want to make sure there is a straight line down from kneecap to pedal axle). They should have measured this with a pendulum when you got the pro fit.


EDIT, I'm 5'6 with long legs. I've only recently had the EUREKA bike, after years of racing and riding and being uncomfortable on, it turns out, too-big bikes. My new road bike is 49cm, which most people would say is way too small for me. But it works wonders! Everyone is proportioned differently; you'll get the right combo eventually.
Tulip, yeah, they did all that. your rule of thumb is interesting, i must not be real stable in my seat yet because i looked two different times and the hub was in two different places.

I have already gotten two different stems (that's the part between the handlebars and the fork, right?)
I'm glad you have a bike that works for you. I really look forward to that.
EUREKA! who makes that one?

[DebW]

.
FORCING my handlebars behind the front axle?? That sounds interesting, please explain?

If you've had to switch to a very short stem to get a proper fit, the handling will degrade a bit because you won't have much weight over the front axle. I've ridden bikes with 80 (and maybe 60?) mm stems and haven't noticed a huge effect, but people claim that it's important and you should try to stay with a stem of 90 mm or longer.

[tulip]

Tulip, yeah, they did all that. your rule of thumb is interesting, i must not be real stable in my seat yet because i looked two different times and the hub was in two different places.

I have already gotten two different stems (that's the part between the handlebars and the fork, right?)
I'm glad you have a bike that works for you. I really look forward to that.
EUREKA! who makes that one?

Try on a trainer and see if you get consistent results. The stem is what attaches the handlebars to the headtube. The headtube is the short tube in front where the fork goes in from the bottom and the stem goes in from the top, bends, and holds the handlebars--am I making ANY sense??)

If I could draw a picture on this keyboard I would. Like the cuts of beef in those old cookbooks...sorry any vegetarians. But there's the headtube, top tube, down tube, seat tube...and seatstays and chainstays. But I digress.

My EUREKA bike happens to be a Luna, but other people have met their own EUREKA bikes that are different flavors. It's a marvelous thing to ride a bike and almost forget you're riding a bike! You will get there!

[spokewench]

Maybe a shorter stem - don't know the length you have? Also, the tip above that I can't remember who said it - how much lower are your handlebars than your seat - take a level long one if you have it. Put it on your seat extend it towards your handlebars, make the bubbles center up. measure the distance between the handlebar and hte edge of the level. That is how much drop you have from your seat to the handlebar. You will want it to be about even maybe a little lower - If you need to come up with it, try adjusting this with a stem - they make stems that have different rises and in different lengths. Your bike shop should be able to provide different ones to try before you have to buy one.

[lnewv5]

When I got my road bike, I had some of the same issues - afraid to take my hands off the handlebars, twitchy-ness, etc., and it was all because I wasn't comfortable yet. I have a standard "male" bike instead of a WSD. I have a really short torso, but I also have long legs and long arms, and it fit me better. Sometimes I felt too stretched out, but like I said, the major issue was comfort. I wasn't ready for how responsive, light, and fast my road bike was going to be. This may sound silly, but something that helped me a lot was riding my bike on a trainer regularly. It really helped me become comfortable with the position I was in, without the "environmental" worries. It helped me learn a lot of where I should be distributing my weight and how I should feel on my bike.

On the other hand, if the bike doesn't fit you right, you're really not going to be able to be comfortable on it. But, if you were fitted professionally, I would give it a little time before you sold it and bought a new one because you may just run into the same problems all over again.

Good luck!

[mimitabby]

Maybe a shorter stem - don't know the length you have? Also, the tip above that I can't remember who said it - how much lower are your handlebars than your seat - take a level long one if you have it. Put it on your seat extend it towards your handlebars, make the bubbles center up. measure the distance between the handlebar and hte edge of the level. That is how much drop you have from your seat to the handlebar. You will want it to be about even maybe a little lower - If you need to come up with it, try adjusting this with a stem - they make stems that have different rises and in different lengths. Your bike shop should be able to provide different ones to try before you have to buy one.

Spokewench,
my handlebars are HIGHER than my seat!

I am older and don't want the extreme position... i definitely don't want much weight on my arms.

at the bike shop they gave me a new stem (SOLD ME i mean!!)
it's long and at an angle.

I guess what i'm saying here is that I don't think there's too much more modifying of the bike that can be done; it IS probably long for me; But i will try relaxing at the shoulders and bending my elbows..
My commute home is all uphill and less stressful on the hands anyway; a good chance to practice.

[mimitabby]

the stem is about 8cm and at a 45 degree angle..
that is on top of a fork with a slightly longer neck on it.

i'll do a photo tonight if i can..

[mimitabby]

When I got my road bike, I had some of the same issues - afraid to take my hands off the handlebars, twitchy-ness, etc., and it was all because I wasn't comfortable yet. I have a standard "male" bike instead of a WSD. I have a really short torso, but I also have long legs and long arms, and it fit me better. Sometimes I felt too stretched out, but like I said, the major issue was comfort. I wasn't ready for how responsive, light, and fast my road bike was going to be. This may sound silly, but something that helped me a lot was riding my bike on a trainer regularly. It really helped me become comfortable with the position I was in, without the "environmental" worries. It helped me learn a lot of where I should be distributing my weight and how I should feel on my bike.

On the other hand, if the bike doesn't fit you right, you're really not going to be able to be comfortable on it. But, if you were fitted professionally, I would give it a little time before you sold it and bought a new one because you may just run into the same problems all over again.

Good luck!

Inew, great advice. thank you. Thank you all for thoughtful helpful suggestions.
shoulders down, elbows bent, shoulders down, elbows bent, shoulders down, elbows bent, shoulders down, elbows bent, shoulders down, elbows bent

[Kathi]

And that's why I went custom.

When I changed the fork on my Aegis the same thing happened, the only difference is that Aegis warned me that my steering would change. It wasn't a big deal to me because most of my riding was on country roads. I had the bike for 4 years when I made the change and was very disappointed to learn the fit wasn't as perfect as I had thought. I rode it for 2 years longer mainly to be sure I knew what I wanted in fit and handling.

The twitchiness is most noticable at slow speeds, like going across an intersection island or making a tight turn. On the road at higher speeds it didn't bother me except that I took turns slower and wider to get a better track on the turn.

Here in Denver we live very close to bike trails that have a lot of very sharp turns over bridges and through underpasses. I learned to deal with them and the handling of the bike. One of the requirements when I built my custom frame is that handling could not be compromised.

Anyway, my advice to you is to ride it as is, don't make any changes, trust the fitter for now. If after you feel you given it enough time and it still feels uncomfortable then have the fitter recheck you.

Don't give up, give your body a chance to get used to the fit . I made significant changes on my Aegis and it took me around 300 miles before my body adapted to them.

If you're still wanting a better fit somewhere down the road then go for custom. It really is awesome to have a bike that fits your body.

I have a 122 miles on my new bike and it feels great, however, I'm still worried something might need to change. I did notice my saddle at first but every time I ride it gets less and less noticeable.

And everytime I go from riding the mtn bike for any length of time the road bike always feels a little unstable at first.

[farrellcollie]

I had a lot of neck and shoulder pain on my scott contessa xs (I am a middle-aged short fire hydrant shaped person) - although not cool - I saw this

"Bring HandlebarsCloser! Always a darn good idea AX50 Adapter from Yellow Jersey" http://www.yellowjersey.org/ax50.html

and I bought one - It has helped me a lot - it is uncool and real roadies scoff - but I can ride more comfortably with it. I figure that after riding upright for 45 years - switching over to roadbike was going to be a process and this might help me ease into it - it is easy to attach (I did it and I am seriously mechanically impaired) and I can take it off when my body/muscles ect get stronger, used to new position in increments etc. If I can figure out how to post photo - I will.

[Kathi]

I raised my handlebars 4 cm. I didn't want to be upright just a good neutral postion. 4 cm was a lot which is why it was so hard to adjust. Once my body adjusted the change was comfortable and I was happy. I remember thinking that I made a mistake in making the changes.

MimiTabby, if there is a significant difference in body position and fit between your old bike and your new bike you will notice it. You have to train your body to the new position.

That's why fitters recommend making changes in small increments.

[mimitabby]

Kathi and FarrellCollie
thanks for more good advice. I like your gadget, but i don't think i'm going to try it, after all i have heard, i am afraid of raising the bars any higher! I will work on getting used to it
and shoulders relaxed, elbows bent...
thanks all!

I feel like there's hope now

[salsabike]

Aside from getting together soon, mimitabby, so you can try my Bianchi Eros Donna, and of course, trying all the above suggestions....I would honestly recommend doing a little test-riding at an LBS that has some bikes in a slightly smaller size than the Veloce, and some WSD bikes for sure. You would then have a better idea re whether there is a bike out there that fits you noticeably better, and whether it's worth pursuing that. I honestly believe that a bike that fits well feels that way.

[Kathi]

I would think that the woman who did the fitting would tell you that the bike was too big. You spent a lot of money making those changes and if the bike was that far off she should have been honest with you and recommended a different solution.

When I had my fitting on my Aegis I went to a Serotta trained fitter. They have a bike called a size cycle that can be adjusted to your dimensions. My fitter set me up on it before I made the decision to change my fork. That way I had an idea of what the changes would be like.

[SR500]

Assuming the seat is in the correct position, you can get stems from 60 to 140 mm, and angles from -20 to +40, add spacers and there is a lot of movement. A pic would really help. A road bike requires a bit of a bent over position, you may need to balance the benefits of fast and quick with what feels best. Also gloves can make a difference in numb hands. Descente makes a glove that is padded for riding in the hoods. Good Luck.

[Kathi]

Last week I bought "Andy Pruitt's Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists" and he says to ride a "couple of hundred miles" before you make changes. But he also says that if you're not comfortable after that don't hesitate to go to the bike shop for adjustments.

[mimitabby]

http://www.oz.net/~mtorchia/lastfix.jpg

here I am with my NEW Ibex wool knickers, they were perfect for the weather today...
I hope this shot shows enough of me on my bike.

[mimitabby]

Assuming the seat is in the correct position, you can get stems from 60 to 140 mm, and angles from -20 to +40, add spacers and there is a lot of movement. A pic would really help. A road bike requires a bit of a bent over position, you may need to balance the benefits of fast and quick with what feels best. Also gloves can make a difference in numb hands. Descente makes a glove that is padded for riding in the hoods. Good Luck.


SR500 I wouldn't dream of riding without padded gloves.. My 25 year old son
ripped his hand open when he fell without gloves. it was UGLY.

I have already gotten all the stems I am going to get..


Kathi,
she kept saying that I looked comfortable!! after 5 minutes, how could she tell?
it's funny; they do Serotta fits at that bike shop; why didn't i get one? I just got a bike fit.

[KnottedYet]

Y'know Mimi, that looks pretty dang good. How it looks is certainly not related to how it feels, but it doesn't look terrible.

Have you read any of Andy Pruitt's book? He goes over specific complaints and how to adjust your bike relative to the complaints vs. how a bike shop sets up an "ideal" bike.

Today I loved a 50cm Jamis, when technically I should've been on a 53cm. But it was perfect for my neck problems and how they relate to my comfortable position on a bike.

What looks good for a person with measurements like you might not be good for the real you.


By the way: NICE knickers!!!!!!

[DebW]

As a few people have suggested, you really may just need 1-2 months of riding this bike to get used to how it feels and handles. Give it time and try not to get discouraged yet. It looks like a great bike and your position looks quite reasonable. A road bike like this is supposed to handle very differently from what you've been riding. It is supposed to handle nimbly. But before you get used to it, that translates into squirrely. After you get used to it, it feels stable but quick. Once you get to the point where the bike feels stable and you can handle it with confidence, then you may still have to tweak your riding position.

P.S. In a previous post I mentioned headset adjustment. If that is off it will affect the steering and needs to be fixed. Did the LBS ride the bike after replacing the fork? Do you have an experience road-biker friend who would give it a spin to make sure the bike is riding properly?

[Triskeliongirl]

Your position looks a lot better than in the images you sent me before you had the fork replaced. By choosing to go the route of a higher and shorter stem, vs a longer top tube, you do expect the bike to be more squirelly, but as others have said, it may take getting used to since you have been without this bike for a while. Will it ever ride like a bike with a shorter top tube and longer stem? No. But can you get comfortable riding it? Probably. I personally don't like to ride a bike with a stem less than 9 cm (with handlebars level with the saddle), which is why I ride a terry with a short top tube and 24" front wheel. But you said you don't want to go that route, so that means you have to put up with a less stable bike. What I think you still don't understand, is that there are unique problems associated with building small framed bikes, and everyone has to choose which solution offers the most advantages and least disadvantages, *to them*. For example, a small 24" front wheel allows you to get a properly sized top tube (i.e. a top tube that is proportional to the seat tube in bikes sized <52cm) so you can use a normal stem (9-14 cm), and normal seat tube angles and a normal head angle, which means you can achieve proper balance over the bike, as well as good handling. Another solution is to build the bikes with the angles needed for the desired handling, but then have toe clip overlap (this can happen with 650c as well as 700c wheels). I know a lot of women for whom this is acceptable, especially racers that always turn with their bodies, but it means needing to be extra careful when turning at low speeds. A third solution common in the wsd line is to use a steep seat tube angle to shorten the top tube, but then you need to move your saddle further back, lengthening it again, and sometimes you can't move it back far enough, so you end up with a poor position. A fourth solution is increasing the fork rake to push the front wheel away from the pedal, but then the fork trail is too high and the bike becomes too stable, i.e. its hard to get it to turn. Again, if you are always turning with your body at high speed you may not matter, but when I test ride bikes with too much trail I feel like I am driving a mach truck. So for *me* the best solution was a 24" front wheel. It seems that carrying one extra tube is a small price to pay for a bike that fits and handles well. You chose to go with a bike with a longish top tube and steep seat tube angle. That is now causing 2 problems. To get a comfortable reach they made your handlbars unusually high (aren't they at 1-2 inches higher than your saddle now?) and your stem unusually short. So you can sit on the bike now comfortably. But, when you try to ride the bike, the handling is quick due to the short high stem, and your hands hurt, perhaps due to poor balance over the bike. Do you know if they set your saddle position to put your knee over the pedal spindle, or to reach the bars. If they moved it too far forward to shorten the reach, you could have too much weight over the front of the bike, leading to hand pain. You could try pushing the saddle further back, just little bit, say 5 mm to see if it helps with the hand pain. While this will make the reach longer, it may improve your balance over the bike. This is another reason I personally like a bike with a short top tube and slack seat tube angle. It lets me get better balance over the bike, which is critical for good handling.

Hand pain means your hands are bearing too much weight, so you need to find out way. Is hand pain still the problem, or is poor handling now your biggest concern with the bike?

You asked why they didn't use the serotta fit system on you. I would guess its because they did a 'retro-fit' vs a new bike fitting. If they were going to sell you a new bike, they would have used the serotta system to determine what frames gave you the best options, but when you bring them a bike you already have, they have to just work with it. Also, be aware that especially reach is *very personal*. You can't simply pay a professional and expect that they will know what is going to work for you body, all they can do is put you in a range that lets you accomplish your stated goals. The fit for a triathelete wanting a super aero positon is not the same as a recreational rider that wants a mix of comfort and effeciency. When I was fit for my custom bike ( that was later stolen :( ) , I used a fit stem. The fitter determines the proper cock-pit size, i.e. sets you up with the proper saddle height and fore-aft position for effeceient pedaling, then sets the reach at something reasonable for your body and goals using a fit stem, a highly adjustable stem. Then you go ride the bike for a while and determine the exact stem length and height before the final stem is made.

If I were you, I would check the headset as recommended, put 100 miles on the bike, and then if you hands still hurt try pushing the saddle back 5mm (or if the pain is unbearable push it back sooner). But otherwise make changes slowly or you can't assess if they help or not. I would say if after 1000 miles you still weren't comfy on the bike (i.e. stable and free of hand pain) sell it and get that serotta fit before you make your next purchase. This doesn't mean you need to go custom, but you can't just buy a bike based on seat tube length, you need to look at top tube length, seat tube angle and head tube angle. Then before you buy, test ride different bikes and note the features of the geometry that work best for you, and then purchase one like that. For example, I know that I prefer bikes with 73 degree seat tube angles, 72 head tube angles, 48-49 cm top tubes, and 10-9 cm stems, with bars set level to my saddle. I only learned this after comparing measurements on bikes that worked for me in the past, vs bikes that didn't. You need to take personal responsibility for bike fitting. Yes, you can consult experts, but ultimately its your body, your choice.

[KnottedYet]

Mimi-
Serotta fits at Sammammish Valley Cycle (eastside) are $200. If you get the fit before buying a bike from them the cost of the fit is deducted from the purchase price of your new bike. They sell mainly Bianchi.

[mimitabby]

Triskelion, thanks again for your long and thoughtful response. I think what bothers me most is not the squirrellyness, but the pain. Pain on a short ride
translates into SERIOUS pain on a longer one. I will take it all with a grain of salt and ride the bike for 200 miles before i make a decision because a dozen wise women on this forum suggest that this is best.

The thing about the 2 different sized wheels is this:
Human beings of all ages, from tiny tots to giant men can ride bikes with 2 wheels both the same size. What is so different about petite women that we can't? Why must petite women (argueably the most perfectly proportioned humans :) ) be singled out as the only humans that MUST have a bike with 2 different sized wheels?
I find the name of the Terry Symmetry rather ironic myself.

As for toes touching the front wheel, I have probably had that with every bike i've ever owned and it's not a big problem to me. It's something you get used to. That goes right along with getting grease on my thighs and remembering not to brake too hard with the front wheel.

The biggest thing for me that i am going from a fairly comfortable hybrid with straight handlebars and crummy gearing to this great Bianchi which sings up hills and can charge across the flats but has these silly handlebars that really seem to be situated in the wrong place.

I really appreciate all the time that folks have given to this dilemma and I hope that I can return the favor often!

[SouthernBelle]

Does the tilt on her handlebars look too extreme to anybody else, or is it just me?

[farrellcollie]

My handlebars are tilted like that - bike shop did it when I took it back to see what could be done for neck pain.

[mimitabby]

Yeah, she's messed with the handlebars A LOT (the bike fit lady)

[Kathi]

My fitter charged $150, 2 years ago, for my refit. she checked my flexibility, spent a lot of time talking to me about my goals and type of riding.

However, even if you didn't pay for the fit she is trained by Serotta and is using the Serotta philosophy of fitting.

One tip from the Andy Pruitt book, on the hoods "your wrist should be in a neutral, handshake position as much as possible. If your wrist angles toward the thumb or little finger, you'll experience numbing nerve pressure"

In the picture your hands look like they're angling toward your thumbs. If you ride that way it could be the cause of your problem.

If you kept the same handlebars were they the right size? Also, was the new fork the same as the original?

Your position looks good, better than a lot of riders I see, you have a nice flat back, flat shoulders, not to stretched.

Andy Pruitt says reach is hard to dial in for any fitter because it is so personal, so I still say give it some time before you make any changes.

[mimitabby]

My fitter charged $150, 2 years ago, for my refit. she checked my flexibility, spent a lot of time talking to me about my goals and type of riding.

However, even if you didn't pay for the fit she is trained by Serotta and is using the Serotta philosophy of fitting.

One tip from the Andy Pruitt book, on the hoods "your wrist should be in a neutral, handshake position as much as possible. If your wrist angles toward the thumb or little finger, you'll experience numbing nerve pressure"

In the picture your hands look like they're angling toward your thumbs. If you ride that way it could be the cause of your problem.

If you kept the same handlebars were they the right size? Also, was the new fork the same as the original?

Your position looks good, better than a lot of riders I see, you have a nice flat back, flat shoulders, not to stretched.

Andy Pruitt says reach is hard to dial in for any fitter because it is so personal, so I still say give it some time before you make any changes.

Oh, Kathi, i PAID for the fit :o
thanks for the observation about where my wrists are bending. We went to a bike shop today and i sat on two WSG bikes (one was a specialized
the other a trek) and DH said i looked better on the Bianchi when I sat on the Specialized... (he wasn't watching when i climbed on to the trek)

I think my handlebars are too small. They are 36's and i would fit a 38... but i was afraid to Spend MORE $$$$$

Will do 20-25 miles on it today with DH at my side. He has a good critical eye.
Thanks Kathi, Knotted, SouthernBell and FarrelCollie!

[Veronica]

http://rivbike.com/html/rr_comfposition.html

Personally I think you look too stretched out in the photo.

V.

[mimitabby]

Veronica, i took that very photo to the fitter, that very one. I said this looks comfy. she said, no; his back isn't relaxed. your back looks nicer than his!



DH and I rode to Kent where my mother lives and back tonight; 26 miles all pretty flat (we started at the base of the hill)

He is thrilled with how I am doing with the bianchi, he gave me a lot of the same advice you guys did.

I noticed that my hands do NOT hurt as much!! I kept moving the hands around (sometimes they got tingly) and even went into the drops a little.
I even pulled out my waterbottle and took a drink without stopping!

It was a fun ride. Now he wants to take me on some hills (eeep)

Thank you all for your patience and good advice. I have a lot more hope today than I had earlier..

[Triskeliongirl]

That is TERRIFIC that you had a good ride yesterday!!!!!!!!!!! So perhaps the last round of changes did do the trick, but now you just need some time on the bike. Yes, moving your hands around the bars a lot is very important, as you know that is one of the advantages of drop bars. As is trying to keep your body RELAXED on the bike. Gripping the bars with all your might in a rigid postion will make anybody's hands ache, no matter how good the fit. But, 36 cm is quite narrow. To know the correct size bar, you should ask your husband measure your shoulder distance (didn't the fitter do this???). But if the bars are too narrow, it shouldn't bother your hands, but your upper back since your shoulder blades end up compressed, and sometimes in can effect your breathing since your chest also can be compressed. On the other hand, narrow bars are more aero so if you are comfortable with the width I wouldn't worry about it. New bars aren't too expensive, and its not hard to change the bars out yourself. Again though, I think the idea of making gradual small changes is best, and unless something really hurts, wait a couple hundred miles before doing anything else. For now, just ENJOY HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Geonz]

http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=416

These are the bars that tempt me away from my flat bars (drops make me cranky).

[KnottedYet]

I'm being seriously tempted by these, since they are cheaper than the bar-ends I like; and changing my bike to drops would be so horridly expensive.

http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=2109

[Bicyclette]

Knotted - I am seriously looking at the trekking handlebars also .... Nashbar has them on sale right now - makes it even more tempting.

[mimitabby]

my sons and husband have both suggested moustache bars, but they are 50+ cm across!! I'm looking for a mini-moustache; a compromise, maybe 44 cm?

[mimitabby]

Oh, because i thought you didn't want your arms sticking out?
(if i am supposed to be on a road bike handlebar of 38 cm....)

[Kathi]

I don't know anything about these bars but what range do you have for the placement of the shifters on these bars? Can they be placed in the proper position for correct reach? Sounds like that's MimiTabby's concern.

I went from a 38 cm bar to a 34 cm and I'm so much happier. On my mtn bikes I had to have my bars cut narrower and the shifters moved closer to the stem for good hand placement, so I wonder if this size of bar would work for a small person.

MimiTabby, it's not that expensive to change your bars, the cost of the bar + tape + labor. If you need a wider bar it might be a good consideration. But you'll have to decide if 2 cm, 3/4" according to my ruler, is that much of a difference.

[Kathi]

I use my drops in wind, so what do you do to get low enough to get out of the wind?

That's a guy in the picture with broad shoulders. Show a picture of a woman.

Also, look how his elbows are locked and his shoulders rounded. I hope this is not an ad for the bars. He doesn't look comfortable.

[mimitabby]

That's a guy in the picture with broad shoulders. Show a picture of a woman.
.

I had the same thought :D

[mimitabby]

Kathi,
on my downhill commute today my hands were still complaining. but i did promise EVERYONE to not change anything for awhile..
I just might get those mini brake levers that triskelion showed me last month. you attach them up on the top. . .
But first, just keep it the way it is...

[oxysback]

It was a fun ride. Now he wants to take me on some hills (eeep)

Say, I hear there's a very nice hill in Kent you can try out. James St., I remember it being called...hehe. :eek: :eek: :eek:

(I used to live in Kent many moons ago)

[mimitabby]

Haha!! Don't blame ya one bit! That hill was horrible enough to get up with my little stick shift...can't imagine it on a bike!

That's one thing about our neighborhood, there's always another hill... bigger than the last one you overcame..
(sigh)

[Kathi]

Kathi, it is holding my hands in a position over the brakes as i am in a high traffic area and moving fairly fast. The brakes themselves are easy enough...

thanks


Are you braking from the hoods? If yes, try braking from the drops. You'll will have more braking power.

It's scarry at first so when you're on a "little non -threatening downhill" and your feeling comfortable, no traffic, stop signs etc. take your right hand off the top of the bars and put it in the drops, position it so you can reach the brake lever to slow down, then put your left hand in the drops.

Practice until you get comfortable then do it on longer hills and traffic.

I use my right brake first as it is the rear brake and I don't worry about throwing myself over the handlebars.

If your wrists and hands are still hurting then have your cable adjusted.

The cable will slacken with time, mine already have.

I brake from the hoods on flats but when I'm on serious downhills I'm now more comfortable in the drops.

I feel better if I get in my drops at the top of the hill, before I pick up speed.

Hope this isn't too much more to worry about:)

[mimitabby]

Are you braking from the hoods? If yes, try braking from the drops. You'll will have more braking power.

It's scary at first so when you're on a "little non -threatening downhill" and your feeling comfortable, no traffic, stop signs etc. take your right hand off the top of the bars and put it in the drops, position it so you can reach the brake lever to slow down, then put your left hand in the drops.

Practice until you get comfortable then do it on longer hills and traffic.


Kathi,
good ideas! I'll try it on my commute home. Sunday night i was actually going into the drops for the first time.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I just might get those mini brake levers that triskelion showed me last month. you attach them up on the top. . .


MimiT,
I think you mean the interruptor brake levers like I have on my new bike. Here is a picture of them:
http://harmonias.com/LisaBike_6.jpg
I just LOVE them! I feel very secure cruising around slowly in traffic with my hands on top of the bar with those brakes right within quick reach. I think having two different braking places to choose from is great, just like having various hand positions available on one's bars.

[mimitabby]

MimiT,
I think you mean the interruptor brake levers like I have on my new bike. Here is a picture of them:
http://harmonias.com/LisaBike_6.jpg
I just LOVE them! I feel very secure cruising around slowly in traffic with my hands on top of the bar with those brakes right within quick reach. I think having two different braking places to choose from is great, just like having various hand positions available on one's bars.

they look gorgeous on your new bike!!! thanks for sharing that foto with us!!!
we love the pictures of your bike!

[xeney]

This has been a really helpful thread. I'm a little taller than you are, and I also ride a Veloce, and I've been having fit problems for the last couple of months. We changed some things around, including sliding the saddle back a bit, because I started having knee pain, and ever since I've felt really nervous on the bike. I finally figured out that it's because I feel like I don't have a good reach to the brakes, which makes me nervous in traffic. I have an old Specialized Allez that is configured to be almost the same size in every way to the Veloce, except the distance on the Allez is 2 cm shorter from the saddle to the brake hoods, and I am much more secure on the Allez. The steering is a little squirrely but I find that easier to deal with than this brake reach issue.

I had my "eureka!" moment when I borrowed my husband's bike, and it was about another 2 cm further to reach the brakes, and I had to actually come out of the saddle in order to get any braking power. THAT is what is wrong with my Veloce, although it's not quite that bad.

Anyway, I think a shorter stem is going to solve my problem, which is a huge relief because I love my bike. I hope you find a similar easy solution, or an answer that lets you know for sure that it's not the bike for you.

[mimitabby]

xeney
thanks for writing. Since several people have now suggested the brake levers
and it's a lot smaller change than the moustache handlebars; i think that's what i will change next.
That's the main time i have trouble is while braking, or preparing to brake.
So when you're waiting at a red light, for example (which could be forever)
you have one foot on a pedal, the other on the ground, and your hands stretched all the way out to the brakes, with at least one compressed to keep you from rolling forward. There's where those levers would be particularly handy!

[DebW]

So when you're waiting at a red light, for example (which could be forever)
you have one foot on a pedal, the other on the ground, and your hands stretched all the way out to the brakes, with at least one compressed to keep you from rolling forward. There's where those levers would be particularly handy!

I was having trouble figuring out how your hands are stretched for the brakes when stopped at a red light. You must be sitting on the saddle while stopped? That would be an awkward position. If you get off the saddle and stand with one foot flat on the ground, one foot on the pedal, straddling the top tube with the bike at a lean, you'll be a lot more comfortable. Then you'll be stable and won't need to keep the brake squeezed, and it's a very short reach to the handlebars.

BTW, do train yourself to always brake from the drops in a hard stop because that way you are bracing your body from moving forward. For slow speed stops, using the hoods or a top lever is fine.