Here we go again... another scandal on TDF

[FreshNewbie]

:mad:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news2

[Lifesgreat]

Floyd.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3

Let's see what the B sample says. . . (trying to be optimistic)

[jeannierides]

I could just cry.

[dobielover1]

I'm stunned, I really hope the B sample shows that A wasn't accurate.

[ACG]

What happens now? Do they wait for the second test? How does this work? I may have to stay home sick today.

[DrBee]

Here's another article from Velonews that confirms that Floyd was named. Let's hope the B test comes out negative.

http://velonews.com/news/fea/10591.0.html

[FreshNewbie]

I must say that with everything that was going on lately with doping scandals I was very dissapointed with pro cycling and where it's going until stage 17. But now I am sitting and don't even know what should I think.

[Gray Gato]

Doesn't look good folks....

[maillotpois]

I feel like I could throw up.

[KnottedYet]

If I barrelled up a bunch of mountains with major epinephrine/adreniline dumps and in huge pain, wouldn't my testosterone/epitesterone levels be elevated, too?

[Nokomis]

Oh No :(

I really don't want to find out that the French are so pissed at Americans winning that they'd go to these steps to taint the result.

I really really don't want to believe it's true.

make it stop :(

[GLC1968]

Knotted - I was thinking that too. Testosterone levels can vary naturally, so I'm just hoping that it turns out it that is was a by-product of his performance and not something used to alter it.

[maillotpois]

Again, I could just barf. This is as bad as Tyler. But I was more naive back then and I fervently believed him. I think alot of us have taken off our rose colored glasses since then.

[Haudlady]

Oh boy. I have a hard time believing he could be so stupid as to actually take something, given the scrutiny placed on the race – particularly this year.

The whole thing is a disgusting, if you ask me – disgusting if it is true, and all the bad press for cycling is disgusting if it is false. Sickening, too…

How long do we have to wait to know for “certain” what the results are?

[maillotpois]

Stunning horses, Haud. I think the B sample could take a week. Hopefully it is expedited - but done carefully.

[dobielover1]

I just don't know what to think...I want to believe in him. If it's true...it makes me almost not to watch cycling anymore.

[FreshNewbie]

I will choose voluntarely to keep my pink glasses until it resolved. Because of the scandal and press i was looking at every rider with question in my head:"is he doping, did he take something, blah blah blah" I mean there was no day after TDF without any talk about doping scandals on cycling news and other sites. It really is disturbing.

[pooks]

To play devil's advocate -- he said he knew that stage was all or nothing, he had to do everything he could to recover from the day before.

I just hope this is all a big fat nothing.

[Geonz]

I also would wonder if the elevation weren't somehow natural. Heck, I *know* it took a lot of testosterone to do that...
Say it ain't so is right.

[chickwhorips]

wow. thats about all i can say. co-worker who hasn't said a word to me about cycling, asked me if floyd's title will be taken away from him. i didn't know about this whole thing, just woke up so i told him i would get back to him. and of course i came straight here for my valuable information. and found his questions to be true. :(

i'm starting to think someone has something against american riders. hopefully sample "B" comes back with the correct result.

i wonder if he's on any other medications for his hip that could have caused these results.

[climbingbiker]

Geonz - I was wondering the same thing. I know next to nothing about physiology, so maybe it is wishful thinking :(

[tulip]

Something against American riders??? Whole teams of Europeans have been kicked out! It's natural to test the winner, among others. Please, let's not start with the French hate Americans rant. This affects riders and teams of EVERY nationality.

It's a shame if he did it. It would be surprising, since he knew he would be tested. But greed is a powerful thing.

[chickwhorips]

But greed is a powerful thing.

very very true. who knows what it can lead you to do. some get caught doing them and other don't.

[Running Mommy]

Tulip.. I hate to say it, but have you been to France lately?? BOY HOWDY!! It seems many of them DO hate us!!! Of course I'm not saying the entire COUNTRY hates us, but it seems that ever since the freedom fry debacle, sentiments towards us have turned south. :p
And yeah, alot of other euro's were caught up in it to. I was most sad to see Jan caught in the mess.
Personally I find it hard to believe that Floyd would be that stupid. I mean these guys KNOW they will be tested to the max if they are anywhere near contention. I dunno... Maybe I'm naive??
Heck lets' test them all and call for a do over!!! Maybe Levi or Georgie boy will step up the second time around. heh heh heh :D

[Veronica]

I wish all pro sports were as diligent as cycling is about testing and sanctioning those caught.

V

[chickwhorips]

why aren't other pro sports cracking down on drug use more? i don't understand. is it because they don't want to know?
if they do find someone doping they seem to just slap them on the hand and let them go. i don't get it.
maybe in other countries they crack down on it more, but i don't see it around here.

[tulip]

Yeah, I've been in France lately. I'm a dual national. I've never seen an example of yo schmo American tourist being hated over there. Of course, if I see some big ole fat WalMart type with an American flag tee-shirt yelling at a French person in English so he'll understand...well, I tend to run the other way real fast.

The French, and the rest of the world, have issues with how American policy and action is completely screwing the world, from environmental issues (***k you, Kyoto Accord!) to the w-a-r...but we're here to talk about doping in the Tour de France. A much brighter topic, non?

[hsmpcycle]

I just saw an MSNBC Report that Floyd tested positive for Testosterone after the 17th stage. :confused: I feel a bit of denial coming through me. This is horrible!!! :eek: Maybe he was taking something for the hip pain and it triggered his body to produce more?

[profàvélo]

If the B sample comes back positive, I think I may give up entirely on pro cycling...

[alpinerabbit]

oops, whoda thunk it. Goofy Elf man goofed up ?

This sport is obviously under the 11th commandment - thou shalt not be caught.

[maillotpois]

Well, this is sort of good news on other riders:

Five Astaná riders who were forced out of the 2006 Tour de France because of alleged links to a blood doping investigation have been formally cleared by Spanish courts.

Joseba Beloki, Isidro Nozal, Sergio Paulinho, Allan Davis and Alberto Contador have all received a written document officially clearing them of any links to the ongoing "Operación Puerto," the Spanish newspaper El Diario Vasco reported Wednesday.

Bummer for those guys that they had to miss the Tour, though.

[jsgeneroso]

i'm fearful of the results. I was rooting for him. Cross our fingers.

[pooks]

I heard somebody on the radio say that Major League Baseball and the Cycling community needed to get together. One is way too loose and the other is way too tight, and the middle ground should be about right between them.

[maillotpois]

I heard somebody on the radio say that Major League Baseball and the Cycling community needed to get together. One is way too loose and the other is way too tight, and the middle ground should be about right between them.


I agree. I went to a SF Giants game this weekend, and the level of Barry Bonds worship made me sick.

[Eden]

Well, this is sort of good news on other riders:

Five Astaná riders who were forced out of the 2006 Tour de France because of alleged links to a blood doping investigation have been formally cleared by Spanish courts.

Joseba Beloki, Isidro Nozal, Sergio Paulinho, Allan Davis and Alberto Contador have all received a written document officially clearing them of any links to the ongoing "Operación Puerto," the Spanish newspaper El Diario Vasco reported Wednesday.

Bummer for those guys that they had to miss the Tour, though.


Bigger bummer for Vino who had a real chance at a podium place in this years TDF - but was excluded because too many of his teammates (now cleared - just several days after the tour is over) were implicated.

[sydney_b]

From what I understand, it's an inconclusive test. Also, we shouldn't rule out meddling with samples and all that. It seems that cycling has some of the tightest rules and the most testing of any professional sport, so I'm not surprised the top riders are often accused/caught, etc. using enhancements. I'm sure other pro sports would fare similarily. This is not to say that using enhancements should be OK, necessarily, but I guess I don't share the extreme disapppointment.

Maybe we should have two associations: "hopped up" and "ridin' natural." Kind of like supermarket foods -- regular and organic?

[SouthernBelle]

I know he was given permission to have a cortisone shot in his hip prior to the tour. I don't know if that effects the results on those tests.

2nd. That shouldn't have been the only day he was tested. He had held the mellow johnny before, so shouldn't the prior tests have been steroid positive? I can't believe he would have taken steroids just for 17.

[Bike Goddess]

Right now it's all speculation so I'm just going to wait and see. I have a hard time believing this as well. Hopefully things will turn out for the best.

IF indeed he did do something he shouldn't have done, then I too will give up my interest in procycling.

[Geonz]

Yup... let 'em do their stuff on their own. Let us RIDE, RIDE, RIDE and know we're doing it under our own steam (or hot air, or whatever!), with a little caffeinated GU now and then...

[SalsaMTB]

Maybe we should have two associations: "hopped up" and "ridin' natural." Kind of like supermarket foods -- regular and organic?

lol, great idea!! It would be really interesting to see the different results.

[Eden]

2nd. That shouldn't have been the only day he was tested. He had held the mellow johnny before, so shouldn't the prior tests have been steroid positive? I can't believe he would have taken steroids just for 17.

I'm afraid even if this is the only day of the tour that is positive the results will still stand, if the B sample is positive as well, until and unless he sucessfully fights it. Roberto Heras lost his Veulta title last year for one positive EPO test from a sample taken on a day when he already had the race won - so logic would say why dope when the race is essentially over.

The riders do and should fight some of this testing. Its not like a pregnancy test - either you are are you aren't (even pregnancy tests aren't 100%). Many of them are quite subjective, requiring being "read" by a technician and are also subject to natural fluctuations in the persons own body chemistry. While I don't know much about how they test for testosterone, the EPO test has proven to be far from reliable and there are several atheletes who have fought and cleared themselves from false positives.

[Aggie_Ama]

As my July Secret Sister knows, there is a popular bumper sticker here that says "Texas is Bigger than France". Hehe, I guess the anomosity is on both sides of the ocean.....:p


I hope Floyd is cleared. I too wonder if there is some correlation with the cortizone? Just say it isn't so!!

[Denise223]

Amanda:

I was hoping that exact thing -- perhaps if Floyd has been receiving cortisone injections in his hip for pain....?

I refuse to believe it until all the facts are in and we know for sure.

Can't Floyd's "B sample" be tampered with??

Denise

[Lenusik]

The French, and the rest of the world, have issues with how American policy and action is completely screwing the world, from environmental issues (***k you, Kyoto Accord!) to the w-a-r...but we're here to talk about doping in the Tour de France. A much brighter topic, non?
Tulip,
I am with you on that. I can tell that you are quite emotional about it. I also grew up in Europe and a lot of people think that French and other Europeans hate Amiricans. This is definitely not true, I have plenty of French friends who just laugh at that.
This doping issue is a major one. I have never seen anything like that in any other sport. At least not this massively right before the event. I do hope that Floyd is cleared, although I am not his fan. It just would be a shame if he went for it after such a scandal.

[HappyAnika]

I'm postponing judgement until I know more facts, but I find the lack of facts frustrating. Granted I haven't done a thorough search, but none of the news articles ever talk about who does the testing (TdF? WADA?), who has access to the samples, how they are handled, conditions under which they are obtained . . . The whole thing seems shrouded in mystery so why should we believe what the test results are if we don't know anything about the process? (This is the science geek in me talking . . .)

[Dogmama]

If I barrelled up a bunch of mountains with major epinephrine/adreniline dumps and in huge pain, wouldn't my testosterone/epitesterone levels be elevated, too?

I think they would actually be lower...

[Dogmama]

I just heard that Phonak suspended him from the team pending the outcome of the investigation. What great support (not!).

[tomgrrrl]

I think it is "routine" to suspend someone initially (meaning they just can't race until it's cleared up), part of regulations they all agree to.

That being said, I am going to withhold judgement for the time being. From what I've been able to read thus far, there are various reasons the "ratio" could be off....it's kind of appalling that there are so many unanswered questions, yet much of the media coverage assumes guilt, almost gleefully. The actually scientific explanations for all this are better left to the experts and I have a gut feeling that after the dust settles, there will be a physiological explanation for this....

I know, given all the suspensions and controversies thus far, it's easy to say he's guilty. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's a shame, that if he is cleared, that his good name may well be tainted anyway.....

[chickwhorips]

on the note about his name being tainted. i think its bad for any rider it happens to. once they are accused of doping people tend not to look at them the same. which is to bad.

[snapdragen]

From cyclingnews:
The Phonak team has confirmed the speculation that Floyd Landis returned a positive A sample after his win in stage 17 of the Tour de France. "The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI about an unusual level of Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France," said the team in a statement. "The team management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result.

"The rider will ask in the upcoming days for the counter analysis to prove either that this result is coming from a natural process or that this is resulting from a mistake in the confirmation. In application of the Pro Tour Ethical Code, the rider will not race anymore until this problem is totally clear.

"If the result of the B sample analysis confirms the result of the A sample, the rider will be dismissed and will then pass the corresponding endocrinological examinations."

The World Anti-Doping Agency has lowered the limit for the maximum T/E level from 6:1 to 4:1. Some athletes have naturally high levels, and can prove this through a series of tests.

Then a good pal of mine (just completed RAAM) sent this to a private group I'm on:

"First thought: cortisone could cause a positive depending on test protocols. This lab is known in the science world as one that doesn't have the cleanest methodology. We know that Floyd has been receiving treatments for his necrotic hip joint; who's to say what he was getting, in what quantities, and/or what the reaction would be with his already-naturally elevated test. levels (as a function of his body's response to the race)?....

Second thought: VERY FEW WADA testosterone claims have held up under scrutiny. Anabolics show very specific markers, and most endurance atheletes who have fought charges predicated solely on elevated testosterone have won.

Opinion:

I very much want to see Floyd with a clean victory.
If he really did it, I hope he gets flushed.
If he's proven innocent, the French media and L'equipe will never let it go.
God help WADA and that fool **** Pound if this turns negative. If that's the case, I hope Floyd sues him so deep into the poor-house that he ends up living in a van down by the river.
For god's sake, if you're a pro athlete and you want to do performance enhancing drugs, get into Major League Baseball....."

My opinion - I don't think Floyd would do it, how could he face his family? Mom would bust him good.....

[maillotpois]

I got this from the ultra list I am on:

...it was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.


The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone /
Epitestosterone Ratio


By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.


Summary


Intoxicating beverages contain a number of different forms of alcohol,
the major constituent of which is ethanol. When a beverage is consumed
the ethanol content passes through the stomach wall and digestive tract
into the blood stream. Once the ethanol enters circulation it begins
to alter the bodies' biochemistry. One such reaction is to
differentially increase the rates of testosterone (T) and
epitestosterone (E) metabolism. The overall effect of this reaction is
to increase the ratio of T to E excreted in the urine.


It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E
ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in
plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints
of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the
T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.


It follows that if the effect of ethanol on T/E ratios is calculated
relative to urinary E concentrations, it can be seen that increases in
the ratio are exponential as E concentrations decrease. Individuals
with naturally low E concentrations could, therefore, experience
increases in T/E ratios of ? 940% greater than increases experienced in
an individual with normal E concentrations. Calculations estimate
that in individuals with low urinary E concentration, ratios of 17 to 1
or higher could have resulted from ethanol consumption without any
administration of exogenous T.


The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and
approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between
a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio
resulting from endogenous T administration.
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[snapdragen]

See! I told you girls! That demon alcohol will get you!

snap "carrie nation" dragen

[chickwhorips]

bf and i were joking about the whole beer thing and it having to do with the test results.
who knew it could actually have something to do with it.

[mimitabby]

oh, the pain of it! Today I attended a bike safety class that the Cascade bike club teaches (they brought it to our company) and the first thing the guy says is;
"well, I guess Floyd's out"


seems to me, a guy who can ride like that ought to have inordinate amounts of testosterone in the first place!

:confused:

[Denise223]

Floyd was scheduled to appear on Leno this Friday night (7/28).

I wonder if he'll still be there? I hope so.

Denise

[SadieKate]

My first reaction to this article was that the network was overreacting but media dollars is what drives professional sports. Maybe that's what it takes. I'm pondering.

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10593.0.html

[Triskeliongirl]

My understanding is the problem is not that his levels of testosterone were too high, but that the RATIO of testosterone to its precurser epitestosterone was too high in the tested sample. While its true that if one were taking testesterone, one would expect this ratio to be elevated, one would also expect the TOTAL amount of testosterone to be high yet his was in the LOW normal range, so this seems like an unfair test if the results do not consider the TOTAL amount of testosterone. I also read that he takes presicrition thyroid hormone for hypothyrodism, so who knows what the effects of cortisone, thryoid hornome, ethanol and physical stress all have on levels of epitestosterone. While I support drug testing this has turned into a wtichhunt. The 5 astana-wurth riders that knocked Vino's team out of the tour have now all been cleared. I really think the sport needs to develop more fair testing criteria, and more fair treatment of riders that are under 'suspician.' Its getting to the point where anyone can accuse any rider of doping and get the excluded from a competition. I don't think Floyd did it.

[tomgrrrl]

well said.....the testing is too complicated, in this case, to judge him this early....many factors could be involved in terms of how his body reacts to stress, the cortisone shots, etc....the sport does need to gets its act together and, maybe move the drug lab to a neutral country like Sweden ;) ....

[mimitabby]

he's already been declared guilty and hanged by this guy:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/15137860.htm

ugh. don't read this article if you don't want to get more depressed.

[spokewench]

Love your RB-1 - I've got one collecting dust just like it in my basement. I'm having a hard time parting with it since it is such a GREAT BIKE!:D

[velogirl]

he's already been declared guilty and hanged by this guy:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/15137860.htm

ugh. don't read this article if you don't want to get more depressed.

Well that explains it! It must've been the sheep testicles he had for dinner with that one beer. Mark Purdy (the author) sure seems to have some pent-up anger in his blood. Maybe he's had one too many sheep testicles too? Or he's just a frustrated wanna-be cyclist?

[chickwhorips]

he's already been declared guilty and hanged by this guy:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/15137860.htm

ugh. don't read this article if you don't want to get more depressed.

its more upsetting then depressing. don't think i've ever read an article like that one.

[snapdragen]

he's already been declared guilty and hanged by this guy:


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/15137860.htm

ugh. don't read this article if you don't want to get more depressed.

I just emailed that loser. Talk about guilty until proven innocent, I'm embarrased by my hometown newspaper.

[chickwhorips]

you give it to him snap!

[snapdragen]

you give it to him snap!

Don't mess with Team Danger.......

[Aint Doody]

I emailed that jerk, too. What a loser!

[Running Mommy]

Go figure??!!!
MAN, that would STINK if he lost his title all because of his beverage choice! DANG!!!

[tomgrrrl]

Here's some more information:

Testosterone Effects Not Immediate

At one point in the three-week race, it seemed as though Landis was petering out. But "an injection of testosterone is not some sort of miracle, immediate boost like an amphetamine or stimulant," Collins says. "Athletes who use testosterone use it over a fairly long course and the benefit accumulates over a period of time."

Testosterone would not account for his comeback, Collins stresses.

"A single shot of testosterone would provide little or no benefit."

John Eliot, PhD, a professor of human performance at Rice University in Houston, and the author of "Overachievement," agrees with Collins.

"The likelihood [that he used illegal substances] seems small to me," he tells WebMD. "Landis is a pretty straightforward guy and personality-wise he does not want to take the easy route," he says.

Could Hip Condition Be a Factor?

Landis is known to have a degenerative, painful hip condition.

"His body, in an attempt to recover, will naturally release more testosterone as part of the recovery process," Eliot says. Also "who knows what he is taking for the pain and this too could interfere with the testing results."

On the other hand, "if his hip was really falling apart, maybe the only way to finish the race was to take testosterone to block the pain," he suggests.

Exactly when he tested positive is also somewhat suspicious, says Eliot. The test was done at stage 17, which coincides with one of the most intense parts of the race.

"The more heavily we exert ourselves, the more naturally our body releases testosterone," he says.

"Fans assume guilt until innocence is proven, but there are a lot of reasons to believe he could be innocent," he says.

Carlos R. Hamilton Jr., MD, professor of medicine and an endocrinologist at University of Texas Health Sciences Center in Houston, and a member of the health, medical, and research committee of the World Anti-Doping Agency, is also reserving his judgment.

"The fact that it is strictly a testosterone level does not mean it came from outside of the body, it could have been produced internally," he says. "It's a perfectly normal occurring hormone."

He says that there is a large variation in what they consider normal on this test and no one knows exactly how Landis scored. "Were his results within normal limits or just out of sight?" he asks.

The bottom line is that the information was released too prematurely, he says. "Wait until we get the final answers. If he cheated, it will be recognized; if he did not, this does him a great disservice."


By Denise Mann, reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

[pooks]

Thanks. I'm feeling very hopeful.

[aka_kim]

The press conference (http://www.velonews.com/media/Landis.mp3) with Floyd at VeloNews is really interesting.

[maillotpois]

Great press conference! (Wow, he has the same thyroid disease I have! I can assure you his thyroid meds are not performance enhancing... :rolleyes: )

[snapdragen]

I can assure you his thyroid meds are not performance enhancing... :rolleyes: )

If only.......

snap "Levothyroxine" dragen

[restrec]

As Greg lemond and Alex Steida said today in an interview. Landis win on Stage 17 did raise suspicion. We thought it was physically impossible for a potential winner of the tour to be on a escape like Landis was and 3 or 4 teams in the pelothon couldn't catch him. Today we have the answer: positive for testosterone and initially fired from his team. Next he'll loose the yellow jersey. He who has raced before know perfectly that racers who escape the peloton do it only with permission of the peloton. A guy with a bad hip who can only do cadence persuits and no explosion racing like standing on his bike for a long period of time, could only win the tour being doped. Armstrong was very lucky not being caught. What a disgrace !

[SadieKate]

The press conference (http://www.velonews.com/media/Landis.mp3) with Floyd at VeloNews is really interesting.I haven't heard Floyd speak much but he sounded exhausted and distraught or is this his normal speech pattern?

I wanted to club a few of the reporters. "Would you lie to your mom?" "What will you do if you loose the TdF title?" Fer pete's sake, the guy is trying to figure out how to prove his innocence in a test that is by WADA standards inconsistent and is one that no one even tracks for baseline.

Thanks for the link, Kim.

[tomgrrrl]

Restrec, I beg to differ, but he hasn't been "fired" from Phonak, his team. Cycling has the most stringent rules in the sports world and it is STANDARD that athletes under investigation are "suspended" until the situation is resolved. It's how all the teams are required to operate....also, I don't think the situation is as black and white as you seem to...but, this being a free world, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Somehow this whole thing resembles a certain event back in Salem hundreds of years ago.....

[velogirl]

(Wow, he has the same thyroid disease I have! I can assure you his thyroid meds are not performance enhancing... :rolleyes: )

Not entirely true. Cytomel (T3) is a very popular drug among body builders and other athletes who need a super-low body fat percentage to perform at the top of their game (hmmmm.....sound like cyclists?). You can buy it on the web (along with other anabolic steroids) and there are hundreds of articles out there that explain dosing and phasing for weight loss. Down-side is that excess T3 can damage your heart and you can also lose muscle mass.

Levoxyl/Synthroid/et al (T4) is not popular because it takes a long time to dose into your system and the nuances of proper dosing are so tricky.

BTW, after spending years in hypo hell, I definitely think thyroid meds are performance enhancing (in a different sense). When I was super-hypo, I didn't recover, suffered severe muscle and joint pain, had a compromised immune system, the list goes on and on. All of these symptoms affected my ability to race my bike. By correcting this, my personal performance was definitely enhanced.

[Selkie]

[QUOTE=Aggie_Ama]As my July Secret Sister knows, there is a popular bumper sticker here that says "Texas is Bigger than France". Hehe, I guess the anomosity is on both sides of the ocean.....:p

QUOTE]
Aggie - Where can I get myself one of those bumper stickers? I've got no beef with the French, but I love Texas bumper stickers!

[Aggie_Ama]

Suzanne-

I found it online here: http://www.texasterritories.com/texastshirts.asp

I don't know how much the shipping is, another place I found wanted to ship it UPS. That was $7.03. :eek:

I bought it at a place called "The Texas Store" in our local mall. I have found some places will just do a phone order and send it by mail. Their number is (512) 250-0356. If the first place wants an arm and a leg for shipping (and you really want one) I could pick one up and mail it like a letter, it is a $2.00 sticker and I am the type who thinks the shipping shouldn't be more than the product!

Some sites claim it is a pro-war/pro-Bush sticker. I didn't realize that, I just thought it was darn funny. Lance is rumored to have the shirt. :p

Back to Floyd talk....

[oroight]

Bigger bummer for Vino who had a real chance at a podium place in this years TDF - but was excluded because too many of his teammates (now cleared - just several days after the tour is over) were implicated.
Quote from another forum;
"Cleared" of anything illegal under Spanish law -- but blood doping
isn't illegal, and in Spain neither is other doping. That just means
they won't face criminal prosecution; they still face sanctions.

[Kalidurga]

While I support drug testing this has turned into a witchhunt. The 5 astana-wurth riders that knocked Vino's team out of the tour have now all been cleared. I really think the sport needs to develop more fair testing criteria, and more fair treatment of riders that are under 'suspician.' Its getting to the point where anyone can accuse any rider of doping and get the excluded from a competition.

I agree with Triskeliongirl. At this point, it's a toss-up who's less trustworthy: the riders, or the organizations testing them. In this velonews.com article (http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10594.0.html), the president of the UCI even says "... we know that the French laboratory [where the testing was done] has a close connection with [French sports daily] L'Équipe, and we did not want this news to come through the press, because we are sure they would have leaked it." That, to me, puts the integrity of the lab into serious question. Why on earth would WADA and the UCI continue to use this lab? Reading some of the many articles about Lance's issues over doping and Operation Puerto, it's crossed my mind more than once to wonder if someone out there is planting or somehow fabricating evidence of doping against riders. The magnitude of it and how it's all presented is getting to be borderline preposterous.

I'm still not sure I believe there was any wrongdoing by Ulrich, Basso or any of the other riders involved in Operation Puerto. First, during the second week of the Tour, Ulrich's lawyers still had not been given any documentation of what had been discovered, yet these "discoveries" were all over the news. Second, we now find out that the five riders from Astana-Wurth have been cleared. While I agree that any rider under suspicion should have been excluded from the Tour, I do not believe they should be considered cheaters and dopers until they have been proved such.

In Floyd's case, I'm of two minds. My more emotional side is in total denial. My rational side, though, says to just wait and see. I truly hope that the powers-that-be at Phonak are listening to their rational sides.

[mimitabby]

well they took down the floydlandis.com website!!! Talk about supporting your own! That's terrible.

[Kalidurga]

Actually, it looks like it crashed. When I tried to get to it earlier this morning and got a time out, I assumed that tons of people were probably trying to get there and post comments. The message that comes up now when you go to the site seems to verify that.

[mimitabby]

The message last night was "this website is down (or closed, I can't remember) until further notice" It wasn't a server message or a network timeout.

[Eden]

At this point, it's a toss-up who's less trustworthy: the riders, or the organizations testing them. .... Reading some of the many articles about Lance's issues over doping and Operation Puerto, it's crossed my mind more than once to wonder if someone out there is planting or somehow fabricating evidence of doping against riders. The magnitude of it and how it's all presented is getting to be borderline preposterous.

I agree to a point here - though I don't think that its a thought out conspiracy. Unfortunately some of the techinicians who do the testing seem to be of the mind that all athletes cheat. One rider mentioned that during one of the times they had to contribute a sample the technican remarked something like "we'll get you all in the end". Some of the testing methods that are used (the ones used for EPO and blood transfusions come to mind) have some subjective componants to them. When you combine a person who is looking for a positive with a test that requires some discrimination on the part of the techinician I think that you definitely get a higher possibility of a result that is unclear being read as positive. People will see what they want to see. I don't know if this has any bearing on Floyd's case, though it does seem that there may be many explanations that do not point to willful taking of steriods on his part. Let's just hope that all avenues are explored before he is condemned.

It seems like if WADA and the UCI are going to come down so hard on riders they really ought to have reliable proof of wrongdoing *before* they sanction anyone. Its a real shame that Vinokurov did not get to ride in the TDF, and it will be even more of a shame if Basso and Ullrich are ultimately cleared too. The evidence that has been presented to the public is thin at best and they are so bad at keeping other things quiet that it seems implausible that if they had hard proof - say a bag of Ullrichs blood or something - they would be able to keep it out of the press. Look at how they handle test results. They cannnot even keep A test results quiet. Even if nothing comes of the B test for Floyd his reputation has take a hit and its unfair.

I can understand the sports orgainization wanting to keep riders safe by banning substances that can endanger their health. As far as the argument that keeping sports drug free levels the playing field I don't buy it. The playing field is never level - some people just have more natural gifts than others, and there are plenty of legal ways of enhancing ones performance through training and equipment and things like wind tunnel testing that everyone may not be able to afford.

I guess in the end I'm not sure exactly what should be done - cycling takes a big hit because they pay attention to cheats and test more than any other sport. I'm sure that other sports have just as big, if not a bigger incidence of players taking performance enhancers, but they pretty much turn a blind eye to it. (Operation Puerto turned up lots of other people from other sports too, but we aren't hearing anything about a bunch of soccer players being dismissed are we)

[SalsaMTB]

This morning I was watching TV with my breakfast. The show I was watching, I think The Today Show, had an interview with Greg LeMond. I must say, it was really depressing. He was not optimistic at all. He basically said the likelyhood of a false positive is extremely rare and it doesn't look good. He said he wished him the best, but he didn't think the next test would come back clean. He also said he hoped Landis would just come clean when it came back positive and admit to the doping instead of still claiming he didn't use. It was sad. I definitely expected him to be much more optimistic. If the only thing I heard was his interview, I would basically think there is no chance that Landis wasn't doping.

It was sad. He said he knew the family, knew landis and thought he was a great guy, but he was not positive at all about the situation.

[mimitabby]

Well, Greg Lemond is no more an expert on medical tests than anyone else!

The thing with Floyd is he HAS been taking meds.. and where he should come out clean is when the Dr's prove that this irregularity is something that happens when you are taking these medications.

And Mercury is retrograde!

[li10up]

I have heard many interviews, bios on Greg Lemond. I think he had a hugh amount of talent and did so much for American cycling, but I think he's just bitter. All he can talk about is how if he hadn't been shot that he could have won 6 or 7 or MORE TdFs. He wants Lance so badly to be found guilty of doping so he can be the the Alpha Male Cyclist. It's almost like he wants every winner to be found guilty of doping so he can put himself on a pedestal - to be the only pure champion. I'm getting sick of him.

As far as the labs go...seems to me they're determined to attack every rider until they get a French champion...they seem desperate to have one of their own win the Tour.

I hope Floyd is cleared, but only if he truly is clean. But even then his win will always be tainted. Seems to me a good ol' fashioned witch-hunt is goin' on.

PS: Any real athlete knows you can have a terrible day one day and be at your best the next.

[maillotpois]

Not entirely true. Cytomel (T3) is a very popular drug among body builders and other athletes who need a super-low body fat percentage to perform at the top of their game (hmmmm.....sound like cyclists?). You can buy it on the web (along with other anabolic steroids) and there are hundreds of articles out there that explain dosing and phasing for weight loss. Down-side is that excess T3 can damage your heart and you can also lose muscle mass.

Levoxyl/Synthroid/et al (T4) is not popular because it takes a long time to dose into your system and the nuances of proper dosing are so tricky.

BTW, after spending years in hypo hell, I definitely think thyroid meds are performance enhancing (in a different sense). When I was super-hypo, I didn't recover, suffered severe muscle and joint pain, had a compromised immune system, the list goes on and on. All of these symptoms affected my ability to race my bike. By correcting this, my personal performance was definitely enhanced.


He's probably on T4, I would imagine.

It was performance enhancing for me in that I stopped being exhausted all the time. But I don't necessarily think it made me a better cyclist. It's more like fixing something that's broken than enhancing performance, I guess.

[restrec]

Landis has not only been fired, but if you read the news today, due to the the past doping situations with Tyler Hamilton and 3 other riders, plus the recent especulations of Botero and another Phonak rider who were in the group of riders frequently visiting the Spaniard doctor, they have decided not to support cycling anymore, it is too embarrasing for them. Manzano the rider who spoke his mind about doping said and Merckz also said it sometime ago, that if you wanted just to finish the Tour you could go with no dope but those wanting to be in the top 15 will only make it with it. We have to let our kids know this, because if they are wanting to go professional some day they have to be aware of the consequences of doping to their health. These guys when they step into their 40's and 50's don't even have a sex life anymore !







Restrec, I beg to differ, but he hasn't been "fired" from Phonak, his team. Cycling has the most stringent rules in the sports world and it is STANDARD that athletes under investigation are "suspended" until the situation is resolved. It's how all the teams are required to operate....also, I don't think the situation is as black and white as you seem to...but, this being a free world, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Somehow this whole thing resembles a certain event back in Salem hundreds of years ago.....

[SadieKate]

Welcome to the forum, restrec. How about introducing yourself on the thread "Getting to Know You"? We're always snoopy about new people.

[Eden]

Quote from another forum;
"Cleared" of anything illegal under Spanish law -- but blood doping
isn't illegal, and in Spain neither is other doping. That just means
they won't face criminal prosecution; they still face sanctions.

My comment was based on this

Joseba Beloki, Isidro Nozal, Sergio Paulinho, Allan Davis and Alberto Contador have all received a written document officially clearing them of any links to the ongoing "Operación Puerto," the Spanish newspaper El Diario Vasco reported Wednesday.

The five riders received a legal document signed by Manuel Sánchez Martín, secretary for the Spanish court heading up the "Operación Puerto" investigation, stating, "there are not any type of charges against them nor have there been adopted any type of legal action against them."

As they were cleared of any links to Puerto I would assume that means there is no evidence that they did blood dope, even if it is not illegal in Spain, therefore no reason to sanction them. It could be a quirk of the translation and the statement certainly did not go into much depth, so it is possible that they are still under suspicion by WADA and the UCI. In any case its still ashame that Vinokurov had to miss the tour as he was never implicated in any wrong doing.

[velogirl]

Landis has not only been fired, but if you read the news today, due to the the past doping situations with Tyler Hamilton and 3 other riders, plus the recent especulations of Botero and another Phonak rider who were in the group of riders frequently visiting the Spaniard doctor, they have decided not to support cycling anymore, it is too embarrasing for them. Manzano the rider who spoke his mind about doping said and Merckz also said it sometime ago, that if you wanted just to finish the Tour you could go with no dope but those wanting to be in the top 15 will only make it with it. We have to let our kids know this, because if they are wanting to go professional some day they have to be aware of the consequences of doping to their health. These guys when they step into their 40's and 50's don't even have a sex life anymore !

Landis has not been fired. It is part of the WADA code of ethics (signed by teams and individual riders) that if a rider is under investigation he doesn't race during the interim and the team will suspend the rider. This isn't being fired.

Phonak had planned to pull out their title sponsorship as early as January (that's when I heard it from Floyd himself at a training camp in CA). iShares will be the new title sponsor of the team and Phonak will be a secondary sponsor.

It's a shame, in a country where we "should" be innocent until proven guilty, that the public and the media condemn (how do you spell that?) a rider before there is sufficient evidence or due process has been served. How can we be so judgemental? Give the guy a chance, will you? Rumors and misinformation do nothing to help the integrity of this sport.

Yes, doping is a problem in pro cycling. And every junior who wants to pursue the sport professionally quickly learns that, especially if they race in Europe. But there are pro racers who race clean and we should hold them up as an example to our aspiring athletes.

[FreshNewbie]

Thank you Velogirl! ... for speaking my mind!!! We didn't see any evidence yet regarding the Test B, but somehow people jump to conclusions right away. I know it's everybody's personal opinion, but maybe if you imagined yourself in his shoes or other riders' shoes then you would too want a benefit of a doubt. We all know that pro cycling is corrupted with doping and other issues but we shouldn't forget that puting everybody under one standard doesn't do any good. To me, until he is proven guilty and emptied his last resorts of innosence proof - he is not guilty!!!

[Denise223]

I'm wondering....Is it possible at all that TEST B could be tampered with??

[velogirl]

I'm wondering....Is it possible at all that TEST B could be tampered with??

Okay, so I've never been drug tested, but I managed a pro team last season in the US. We were lucky enough to win the doping lottery a few times during the season. You see, in the US, not only are the winners tested, but there are a number of random tests as well (ie picking a number out of a hat).

Because most of our racers are new to the pro scene, I accompanied them to the testing trailer. Here's what happens:

You sit outside in the sun in your wet shorts (after just racing in the sun), and the USADA folks give you gatorade until you can finally pee. Sometimes this takes hours. I think it might be faster if they gave you coffee or beer, but apparently that would skew the ph (see below).

Once you're good to go, you go inside the trailer with a USADA rep and the rep. explains the procedure to you. The rep. gives you some literature about USADA and you sign an acknowledgement. You pick a box from a handful of identical boxes sitting on the table. You then open the box yourself and inside are two glass cups (sealed) and a test strip. The rep. never touches the box or the cups or the test strip.

Then, you and the rep. go into the bathroom and she watches you pee into both cups. Imagine if you get a bit of performance anxiety -- this can be a long process. After you pee in the cups, you seal them again and the rep. gives you a label to put on them (with information about you, the race, the date, etc).

Then, you go sit at the table again and the rep. asks you to open the cups and administer the test strip to see if the samples will be valid (has to do with the ph level or something). Anyways, you seal the cups (sample A and sample B), put them back in the box, the box gets sealed and then you finally get to go home.

So, it would appear, on the surface, that there's very little margin for error in this process, at least from a collection pov. However, I have no idea what happens during the testing/analysis phase.

And, the crazy thing about the T/E test that was in question for Floyd is that there apparently are HUGE concerns about whether or not this test is even valid.

BTW, I'm sure there's lots of info on the WADA and USADA websites where you can learn more.

[Bron]

You sit outside in the sun in your wet shorts (after just racing in the sun), and the USADA folks give you gatorade until you can finally pee. Sometimes this takes hours. I think it might be faster if they gave you coffee or beer, but apparently that would skew the ph (see below).



In lots of sports alcohol is a banned substance so drinking beer would not be such a great plan. Steve Redgrave (Olympic rower) describes being given beer to drink during a dope test in his biography. By the time he actually needed to pee he was so drunk that he was falling all over the place and had to be sent to bed!

Bron

[Kalidurga]

Apparently Floyd did a press conference (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/austin_murphy/07/28/murphy.qa/index.html?section=cnn_topstories) this afternoon on the issue.

He's also going to talk about it on Larry King tonight at 9 pm ET: CNN: Larry King Live (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/larry.king.live/)

[mimitabby]

I'll say one thing about him, he's not hiding or holding back.!! :D

[velogirl]

Oh, and I forgot. You also have to fill out a butt-load of paperwork about your health and meds. I always had my racers bring a specific list of all their meds (including vitamins and herbals) along with doses and when they took them and I kept a copy as well. Post-race, when you're fatigued and can't think straight, it's hard to remember all this information on the top of your head. If you use a banned substance you can get a therapeutic exemption. However, you need to know what you're putting in your body. It's too late, after the results come back, to say "oh yeah, I was using a steroid inhaler."

[spokewench]

Greg Lemond is way too fast to accuse others of doping. Don't forget there has been doping in pro cycling for many years even when Lemond was racing. Also, remember that he probably shouldn't have been able to win the tour since his body is full of shotgun pellets due to being shot I think it was maybe a year or two before he won the Tour!

I don't condone doping but the tour has gotten so competitive, no one who is not doping can have a chance in heck to win! Back in the day, they used to have what you would call a rest day where they would go slower and take it easy - these days, the tours are always "the fastest ever" etc. Something has to give and it is the rider's bodies if they don't dope!

[chickwhorips]

if floyd was tested at other parts of the stage while in yellow, and didn't test positive, why did this one pop positive? were the other tests they were doing trying to test for something else or the same thing?

[Denise223]

Velogirl:

Thanks for all of the information!


Originally posted by velogirlAnd, the crazy thing about the T/E test that was in question for Floyd is that there apparently are HUGE concerns about whether or not this test is even valid.


I know, that's what I can't understand :confused: !

I am looking forward to seeing Floyd on Jay Leno tonight -- he was scheduled to appear as of this past Tuesday.

Have a great day!

Denise

[maillotpois]

This is a good report:

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=4223

[Flatlander]

Is anyone besides me bothered by the argument that "they all do it, so he's guilty"...?

It seems to me that besides a presumption of guilt before all the evidence is in, it is impossible to mount a defense against a blanket, sweeping statement like this. If you believe this, then no amount of "proving a negative" will change your mind. Seems a little unfair to me...

Where, exactly, is the *proof* that they all do it? I think it is one thing to suspect that there is a lot of doping in cycling--some has even been demonstrated. However, I could just as easily say that all Texans are arrogant (I'm a Texan, so that's why I'm using this example:) )...Just saying it isn't actual "proof" of anything except someone's opinion and suspicions--no amount of evidence to the contrary would change that person's mind...

IMHO.

[snapdragen]

I don't think I'd wait for the b sample test - I'd have the IRNS test done immediately.

I believe in Floyd. Until he says "Yes, I knowingly took a banned substance" I will continue to believe in him.

[Running Mommy]

Ok, am i the only one who wants to smack Lemond upside the head??!!
It seems that since he retired everyone has turned into a doper??!!
UGH! :mad:
he just irritates the poop out of me!!

[SadieKate]

Nope, you're are not alone. I pretty much listen (or don't listen) to Lemond with a grain of salt.

[Aggie_Ama]

Ok, am i the only one who wants to smack Lemond upside the head??!!
It seems that since he retired everyone has turned into a doper??!!
UGH! :mad:
he just irritates the poop out of me!!

Not at all. I never really heard many of his interviews before the TdF this year. Everytime OLN did one of their segments I was increasingly annoyed. I started to hear the adult in Peanuts when he was talking "Wahh, wahh, wahh..."

[tomgrrrl]

Landis has not only been fired, but if you read the news today, due to the the past doping situations with Tyler Hamilton and 3 other riders, plus the recent especulations of Botero and another Phonak rider who were in the group of riders frequently visiting the Spaniard doctor, they have decided not to support cycling anymore, it is too embarrasing for them. Manzano the rider who spoke his mind about doping said and Merckz also said it sometime ago, that if you wanted just to finish the Tour you could go with no dope but those wanting to be in the top 15 will only make it with it. We have to let our kids know this, because if they are wanting to go professional some day they have to be aware of the consequences of doping to their health. These guys when they step into their 40's and 50's don't even have a sex life anymore !

Restrec, Phonak was pulling out of sponsorship after this TDF. That's what the announcers were saying on OLN when Landis was on the victory podium when he was presented with the yellow jersey. Ishares was going to take over, but that's not for sure. Teams change sponsorships all the time.....just look at how Postal became Discovery, etc. :)...I'm sure this controversy has added to the muddle, but Phonak was out BEFORE this happened (unless my TIVO is lying to me). Perhaps i-ishares is now out and the team will regroup or riders will go elsewhere....I'm sure the scandal doesn't help solidify something already tenuous....

Also, I have a young daughter and agree that our children should be educated about the perils of drug use, etc....but I also try to instill in my daughter the idea that it's best to be sensitive to others and to hear people out, to try to give them the benefit of the doubt when faced with conflicting information....life can be complicated and the answers don't often come in black or white.....

[Nanci]

RM, I'd be happy to hold him down while you smack him. He's always the first to turn on someone, take Lance for instance. Any time you see him being interviewed, he's accusing someone of doping. I don't like him at all.

[Dogmama]

Why does he always pick on the Americans? Did he rail against Ullrich, et.al., when they were tossed?

He needs to take that chip off of his shoulder. He is making the sport look worse...if that is possible right now. Maybe it's the lead in his body?

[RoadRaven]

RM, I'd be happy to hold him down while you smack him. He's always the first to turn on someone, take Lance for instance. Any time you see him being interviewed, he's accusing someone of doping. I don't like him at all.


Ah yes... Nanci, RM, Sadie, Aggie, Dogmama...

Interesting - I am just reading "Chasing Lance" at the moment and just last night read about how LeMond was great mates with Lance and then suddenly turned (with something not unlike the speed of a viper) and started spreading poison...

I'll stand in line with a paddle - don't wanna smack him with my hands!

[ridebikeme]

As always, Lemond has truly shown himself.... an egotisical **** the only reason that I can see that he turns on Americans is because he is the one that wants to be remembered...

I think the absolute best way to get back at him is NOT to buy any of his products.... if he can't support our US athletes any better than he has... than I can't justify buying any Lemond products....

[margo49]

Even D**k Pound of WADA says that they (WADA) have formally suggested to the ICU that the reason they have so many positive tests is a problem in their policies, methodology or practice. Despite that cycling is definitely one of the problematic sports for doping anyway.
(Got that off Eurosport.com)

[snapdragen]

I was watching CNN this morning, in their little blurb they say quite a few people are rallying around Floyd, a number of them in the medical community.

Found this article posted on RBR:

MissingSaddle (http://www.missingsaddle.com/2006/07/28/jexcuse-in-defense-of-floyd-and-cycling/)

[Technotart]

There is no way they can say what they have said based on the test they have.

It just blows my mind. What a crock.

Their testing methods and quality controls are essentially worthless - and therefore so is their credibility.