Now a fitting question

[btchance]

Okay, I've spent the last week or so test riding bikes and have rode Fuji, Felt, Trek, Lemond, Giant, Cannondale, and Specialized (eh, I may be missing a few here). Anyways, I've gotten two entirely different opinions on fitting, even for the same exact bike!!! For a little background, I'm 5'2", have very long femurs according to a couple of the LBS guys, relatively short torso, and have been riding MTB, so sitting fairly upright.

One group thinks I should be on a 43-45cm bike, mainly because when I climb on it I feel comfortable immediately, no actual fitting or alterations other than looking at stand over height and adjusting the saddle height.

The other group thinks I need a 47-48cm. This includes the guys who have helped me extensively with my MTB, and they were the only ones to do any type of actual fitting, and one of the other shops. When I climb on without any changes being made to the bike, I feel stretched out, but to these 3 guys I look like I'm in the right position. After doing some changes to the bike, including moving the seat backwards based on what my knee needs (opposite of what I feel like I need to be comfortable, but after researching a little bit and looking at how I fit on the other bikes, my knee was way too far in front of my feet) and changing the length of the stem, the number of spacers, and the angle of the stem, and ajusting the brakes, this size felt just as comfortable as the smaller bike. They also took the time to explain to me what angles they were looking at and what to look for when I test ride the other sizes to see if the bike is the right size. They also altered how I was sitting to a more correct position, which also made me more comfortable.
The way they explained this to me was that I am used to sitting upright on my MTB, which with the smaller bikes, especially if the seat wasn't moved back, I would fimmediately feel more comfortable on because I was so much more upright. They felt that the smaller bike would work for me immediately, but that as I got used to being more stretched out, the length of the stem would have to be lengthened to the point where I would be too far out front and wouldn't have adequate control over the bike.
I really did feel comfortable on the larger bikes after they made the changes, and didn't feel like they were pushing me towards the bigger size just to make the sell as they had the smaller bikes there and were switching me back and forth between them to see which one did fit me better. For reference, the one store had me on the Specialized Dolce and Dolce elite, and the TCR 1. The other store of this mindset had me on the Trek 1500 (but they only had the 47, so nothing to compare to at that store)

Which way sounds right to you gals? I'm wanting to make sure I get something that really fits me for the long run as I want this bike to last. (also I might add aero bars over the winter as I am using the bike to do triathlons)

Sorry this is so long, and I hope it makes sense.

[emily_in_nc]

Just some thoughts from someone similar in height to you - but you didn't mention your inseam...

I am 5'2 and a half" with a 28" inseam and have one road bike that is is a 44.5 cm size (Terry Isis) and one that is a 46 cm size (Aegis Swift). The top tubes are virtually identical on the two bikes, but the Aegis has the longer seat tube so the standover is higher and doesn't actually have as much standover as I really should have; the Terry is better in that regard. I felt "immediately comfortable" on both bikes and also continued to feel comfortable after many miles, including centuries. I never started to feel that either bike was too small, although I did decide that both should have longer stems than the short stems they came with (6.5 cm on the Terry, 7 cm on the Aegis). There is plenty of wiggle room to lengthen those stems, and thus make the bikes bigger in the cockpit. I did actually change the Aegis stem to 9 cm, which ended up being perfect.

I test rode a Trek 5200 WSD in 47 cm and felt a little too stretched out, and there was no way to bring the bars up any higher, and I didn't want to shorten the stem. A 48 cm would definitely not work for me; it would be too long in the top tube. A lot of it depends on flexibility and how much of an angle you are able to make with your back and pelvis comfortably.

Make sure on the larger bikes that your elbows are soft when you're on the hoods. You arms should not be straight out with locked elbows, as you probably know. One difference for me was whether I could ride comfortably in the drops. I can do that very easily on both the bikes I mention but felt too stretched out (and low) in the drops on the 47 cm Trek. I like riding in the drops and think that any bike where the drops feel like too long a reach is probably too big.

On the smaller bikes, as I am sure the LBS folks told you, make sure your knee is not in front of the pedal spindle. If you put the saddle back on the rails and your knees are still in front of the pedal spindle, then the frame is too small. Because of your femur length, you might have a problem with that. If you can get your knee directly above the pedal spindle and still feel good on the bike, I'd personally go with the smaller bike. The smaller frame will weigh slightly less too, always a plus!

There always seems to be a tendency among male fitters to try to fit females on bikes with longer top tubes than are optimal, I think. What will work for a man won't necessarily work for a woman. I also think how you "feel" is probably more important than how you "look" (to the fitters). You need to be comfortable in your chosen posture on the bike. They are right that as you ride a road bike, you will probably find that you gain comfort in a slightly more aerodynamic position, but unless you plan to race, you may still end up in a more upright position than they would.

Good luck with your decision. You are doing the right thing by taking all the test rides. Let us know what you decide on!

Emily

[Kathi]

Did you read this article that I posted from Women Specific.com. http://womenspecific.com/cycling/35/...men-specific-- There is specific information on how seat tube angle affects your fit.

From what your describing the seat tube angles are too steep for you. The Specialized Dolce has a st angle of 76 degrees. It looked like the Giant 2XS, not sure what size you were on, has a 74 degree st angle. I didn't check Trek but it's probably a 75 degree st angle.

Also, did you actually ride any of these bikes or just sat on the trainer? I ask that because I demoed a 48 cm bike last fall. We knew it was to big but I was evaluating the frame material not the fit. The LBS set it up so well that when I rode it around the parking lot I was surprised how well it fit. However, they let me take it for a 10 mile ride. Boy, did I get a rude awakening. My body could tell exactly how poor the fit was. I did like the frame material, though.

The best thing to do is to find out exactly what geometry you need then try to find a bike that fits that geometry. Find a shop that has a good fitter (I like the Serotta fit method, but there are others) pay for a fitting, then go shopping for a bike. Some shops waive the cost of the fitting if you buy from them. That way you'll have a bike that fits well and you will love riding without second guessing or trying to fix a frame that didn't fit in the first place.

The one shop you are dealing with sounds like they know what they are talking about but the more you know about how a bike should fit you the better off you'll be in the long run.

Realistically though, small bikes are generally built with steeper st angles, so you are going to have a harder time finding a small frame with a slack st angle.

[Triskeliongirl]

I tend to agree with Emily that based on what you told us, the 47-48 cm bikes are likely too big, and I also agree with Kathi that you MUST pay attention to seat tube angle with a long femur. I am a bit taller, 5'4", but I have a 3 cm LLD so my bike is fit to my short leg, with a dropped pedal for the long leg. I also have a very long femur. I can ride a 17.5" - 19" frame, but chose the 17.5" terry frames since they have a slack seat tube angle (73 degrees), and short top tubes (48.3-49.3 in the models I have). What I like about this, is that I can put a reasonable length stem (10-11 cm) and normal reach bars on (nitto noodle), which gives me better handling than bikes with longer top tubes, and a short stem and short reach bar. There aren't a lot of bikes out there with slack seat tubes though in the smaller frame sizes. I ride a tery titanium isis as my go fast bike, and an upgraded drop bar classic as my commuter/touring bike, both in 17.5". I think it is more important to look for the right top tube length and seat tube angle, than a specific frame size, assuming you have adequate top tube clearance, and can get the right saddle height, handlebar height, and KOP.

[Kathi]

Not sure of the st angle on the small Terry's but they have a 700c back wheel and a 24c front wheel. It means carrying 2 different sized tubes and stocking 2 different sized tires. At least with 650's you only need to worry about having 1 size with you.

BTW, I saw a custom Luna last week at Ride the Rockies, it was very small and it was a beautiful little bike.

[melissam]

Hey btchance!

I was wondering what time frame you have to decide. Do you have time to read Andy Pruitt's Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists? He has a whole section on bike fit. The Table of Contents and other excerpts are on Amazon, along with a lot of rave reviews.

I haven't read the book, but everyone I've heard from thinks it's an awesome reference! I think SadieKate has raved about it on these forums.

As far as longer femurs go, in my hazy memory banks it seems like I heard that Lemond bikes have a geometry that favors longer femurs. I could be wrong, or it could have changed since then, but it might be worth checking out.

Have fun shopping! Can't wait to see what you end up getting!!

-- Melissa

[Triskeliongirl]

Yes, its true with the smaller framed terrys you need to carry 2 tubes, BUT, I could not find a single bike with 650cc wheels that didn't have toe clip overlap and had a slack enough seat tube angle to fit me. So, I went with the bike that fit, and I carry one extra tube. FYI, now the 19" and larger terrys have slightly steeper STAs (74 degree) and 650cc wheels, if that really matters to you, but I chose the 17.5" cuz it fit me better. My titanium Isis fits me like a glove and rides like a dream, for a lot less money than a custom frame. I also didn't trust a guy builder to build me a custom frame that fit. What do you do if you don't like the fit after spending all that money on a custom??????????????

[Kathi]

Yes, its true with the smaller framed terrys you need to carry 2 tubes, BUT, I could not find a single bike with 650cc wheels that didn't have toe clip overlap and had a slack enough seat tube angle to fit me. So, I went with the bike that fit, and I carry one extra tube. FYI, now the 19" and larger terrys have slightly slacker STAs and 650cc wheels, if that really matters to you, but I chose the 17.5" cuz it fit me better. My titanium Isis fits me like a glove and rides like a dream, for a lot less money than a custom frame. I also didn't trust a guy builder to build me a custom frame that fit. What do you do if you don't like the fit after spending all that money on a custom??????????????

That's a risk you take with custom, however, in the absence of female fitters you have to trust someone.

Building a custom frame is a lot about knowing what works for you, knowing your body and trusting your fitter.

My Aegis was refitted by a female, who happened to be trained by Serotta. She taught me alot about what was right with my bike and what was wrong. So when I had the fitting for my Serotta it was a male fitter (I've moved) but I trust him to do it right because he took the time to learn about what I was happy with on my bike and what needed to improve. He learned about my style of riding, what I was looking for in a bike and even was willing to work around my knee injury to do the fitting. He even offered me a job!:D

Anyway, I've learned that there are no hard and fast rules about bike fitting, that every rider is different and if someone wants to follow the "rule of thumb" steer clear.

BTW, a Terry would not work for me because I happen to have a short femur (I learned this from a Serotta fitter who is male) and I need to have a steep st angle.

[Grog]

Men in bike shops do tend to put women on too big bikes.

Today I met a really nice wrench and bike fitter in a bike shop in a city where I live only temporarily. I shared some of my concerns about my bike being too small. He told me that he always prefered a too-small bike because you could do something with it to make it fit (well if it's one size too small). When the bike is too big you can't do anything to fix that.

Just his 2 cents, for what it's worth...

[Triskeliongirl]

Kathi, what you are saying about learning about our bodies is so true. I was so frustrated. I went to my LBS, prepared to shell out 3000 for a trek madone, and not only could they not fit me on it, they couldn't fit me on any bike in the store, all had too steep a STA for my long femur, and too long a top tube. The female fitter said I had to have a bike with a 24" front wheel or less. Then I looked at the 2 bikes I had that fit well, my terry classic, and my bike friday, and BINGO, they both had wheels 24" or less in front, 73 degree STA angles and top tubes in the 48-49 cm range. So, I had my fit, I just had to find a RACIER bike that met those specs, and the 2005 titanium Isis fit the bill. I rung up Georgena Terry, and she even worked with me to build it to my specs (I need a custom crank due to my LLD) and worked with Harris Cyclery in Boston to get it built, and I took delivery in Boston on a business trip. All for a very reasonable price. I have a titanium bike, while not cusom built to me, custom fitted to me, for $2000 (not including the crank set which I had to purchase separately for almost as much as the bike from the fellow that built it, but that's another story). I thought of going cusom wih Lenard Zinn, but he wanted twice that much money. That is great you gals found fitters that did custom right. I also thought about a calfee, but I definitely didn't trust the man that fits those in my town.

[Kathi]

Merlin makes a small ti frame called the Carmina with a 73 degree st angle.

http://www.merlinbike.com/bikes/2006/classic/camena.aspx

[btchance]

okay, I read the article you recommended, Kathi, and I looked at the seat tube angles between the bikes, top tube lengths, and stand over heights. All the bikes are between 75-76 degree angles, the dolce 44 tt is 496, the 48 506, trek 500, and Fuji 44 is 493. There is quite a bit of difference in stand over height (I can't remember y inseam at the moment, so I haven't looked at this too closely). I'm going to ride the Trek and Fuji again, then make up my mind. Right now I'm leaning towards the 44 Dolce Elite. I can get last years model for 1,000 which includes the fitting. The only reason I'm hesitating is that I can't ride the actual bike before ordering it. I have ridden the elite in the 48 and the Dolce in the 44 so I'm pretty sure it will fit and handle well, I just have a hard time getting it without actually riding it first! (and I have to find the time to drive an hour and a 1/2 each way to get there)

Kathi - I did ride all these bikes on the road, which definately gave me a better idea on how these fit (it eliminated a few right away!)

melissam - unfortunately, I don't have time to read the book you recommended, mainly because my vacation ended today and now I have to start doing way too much reading for rotations. That's why i've spent so much time this past week test riding bikes.

Also, I looked up the Terry bikes online, and they are out of my price range.