attention stokers: question here

[mimitabby]

Hi guys, I am the stoker on the end of a burley rock and roll. I have no brakes, I cannot shift, I cannot steer. Sometimes i can't even see what's in front of us, because you know who in front of me; who isn't a big guy he's still taller and bigger than I am.

Yesterday we rode 54 miles around Lake Washington; on mostly roads with cars. True, most people stayed home yesterday because it was cool and breezy and grey, but there were enough cars to keep me on my toes.

So anyway; back to stoking. Sometimes the best of "captains" will neglect to tell you things like "I am not going to turn right onto the street, I am going to go up onto the sidewalk" or "I'm going to stop pedalling here"
or, he's going to come to a very slow stop at an intersection because he's hoping the light is going to turn.
All of these things; miscommunication or lack of communication are stressful to the stoker. In the first example, i didn't know he was going to get up on the sidewalk and MY reaction forced him onto the street (even more scary!!)
the other two examples just give me lots of adrenalin rushes and tend to wear me out.
another time, something scared me (a car doing a slow stop at the stop sign to our right?) and my movement away from the car forced the bike to move where my husband didn't want to go.

Does this stuff happen to others of you? do you find Tandem riding MORE stressful than regular?

What I like about tandeming is that i can "keep up" with my husband and as a team we can ride with the "big boys" We also get so many smiles from people in cars, on foot and on other bikes, that we find ourselves smiling so much more t han we do on our singles.

Thanks everyone; i'd love to hear other stokers weigh in.
mimi

[Veronica]

I don't find being on the tandem more stressful. Thom and I are pretty in sync. But we rode the tandem only for 18 months before getting singles.

V.

[SheFly]

Communication on the tandem is key. As a stoker, any small change by the captain will affect the stoker, which will, in turn, affect the captain. We have been riding tandems for almost 10 years, and have learned when we need to communicate - hold (stop pedaling), bumps, stopping, going right, everything is important.

This is more pronounced when you are riding tandem in the woods :eek: . We started our tandem adventures on the singletrack, so that may be how come we are so in synch now that we have transferred to the road.

I will admit to rides where swearing and crying have ensued, and I think we hold the record amongst our tandeming cohorts for the furthest distance a tandem has been thrown :D .

I LOVE riding the tandem, and don't find it any more stressful than normal, but would if our communication wasn't dialed in....

SheFly

[sydney_b]

I had to laugh when I read these. I recall reading a cautionary note in a 'how to canoe' book about couples taking up the hobby together.

[SadieKate]

We both find it more stressful but we also enjoy it too much to let that get in the way.

Bubba says he feels the pressure of being responsible for me, that whatever he does impacts me and, being the guy he is, would go the extra step to keep me safe.

We've only fallen once on the tandem. Came around a steep and blind corner on the uphill end of a bike path bridge onto a huge patch of sand where they'd removed the cement for repair. No signs, no warning, no nothing. Fortunately, we were going very slowly and he managed to keep the front end under enough control to step off and slow the tandem's fall onto its right side and I landed in the sand. I think the fall hurt him more emotionally than it hurt me physically. He carried some guilt for a while that he was at fault when I was thinking "thank goodness he did what he did."

For my stress level, I just had to learn to ride loose and relaxed, but that doesn't mean we don't do a lot of communication. Since Bubba outweighs me by 75-80 lbs (and 10" taller) every little movement he makes causes a reaction in the back. If he stops pedaling for just a second, the reverse force on my pedals can eject me off the seat. We don't put in a lot of miles on the tandem, but I think the size difference probably made us realize very quickly that communication was extra important.

To make it work for us, Bill talks a lot (which he's does anyway ;) ) and I learned to let go of control issues, relax and go with the flow. I have to trust that he's doing the right thing and make sure I don't let my body react to every little thing. Basically, he talks a lot and I "ride stupid." Works great.

[mimitabby]

10 inches taller than you!

oh, geez, that's a big difference! I remember how bad it hurt the first few
times my husband stopped pedalling without telling me. I've gotten past that; we have improved

thanks so much your comments are excellent.
And yeah, i suppose it IS like riding a canoe together!

[DebW]

Question: Why is it that the larger person usually ends up in front on a tandem? If the smaller person were in front, then the stoker might have a chance of seeing something other than her partner's back. The few times I took a test ride on a tandem, I hated the stoker position. I could probably never be trusting enough to ride a tandem. In a canoe, on the other hand, I got the bow and my larger heavier partner had no choice but to follow where I led. No verbal communication required.

[SadieKate]

Strength and weight balance.

It simply takes more strength at times, especially starting and stopping. When you're standing, you REALLY want the heavier person in the front.

There are tandems with a 'bent front end.

Hmm, in a canoe, isn't the person in back the one who has the most control over turns? Your back seat partner may have just been accomodating whatever you did. I've only used 2 seat kayaks and the person in back was really the one in control.

[mimitabby]

there are also some tandems where the front person is in a recumbent position. They can sit and relax while the power rider in the back does all the work!

lol. or the guy in the back can just push them into traffic!

I agree about the front rider needs to be the stronger one. A tandem
with two people on it weighs well over 300 lbs, when it starts going
it's like a freight train.
I guess part of my problem is I understand the physics of momentum all too well and I know it wouldn't take much to send me flying off the top !

we've fallen twice so far, at fairly low speeds. I managed both times to land on my feet while the captain went down with the ship..

[bcipam]

Off and on for 15 years with different partners I have rode tandem as the stoker. Personally I do feel it's more stressful than individual riding. Some partners were easier to ride with than others - good partners communicate alot, every move, turn, etc. but here's the thing for me with a tandem - speed and that lack of control. Yes I am a control freak and as a stoker - you must give your trust over to the captain. And speed - nothing moves faster than a well-working tandem - going fast, not being to see, no control... to me that's stressful!!!!

[SadieKate]

Heh, so I take it, Mimi and Pam, that you don't want to hear about the time we went airborne at 62 mph over a steel decked bridge?

OK, I'd didn't enjoy it, but it shows that staying relaxed in an unplanned maneuver can save your hiney.

[SheFly]

Great comments!

Airborne at 62 mph??????? Now THERE'S a story that I'd love to hear! The fastest we've been is 58 mph - we can't seem to break the 60 mph barrier.

The scariest moment for me was last year on a fast, steep, windy descent. At about 35 mph, we blew the rear tire :eek: . All I could think about was how much it was going to hurt going down at that speed. Miraculously, hubby kept the bike upright, and navigated us to a soft spot where we stopped upright! :cool: .

We also took a pretty good digger in our MTB tandem days. I ended up landing on hubby's head pretty hard, and driving him into the ground. His response to me was to ask why I hadn't put out my leg to stop us (I would have broken my leg, btw.....).

Tandeming is so much fun! We are building up a new TT tandem this season to see if we can break our course record!!!

SheFly

[DebW]

Hmm, in a canoe, isn't the person in back the one who has the most control over turns? Your back seat partner may have just been accomodating whatever you did. I've only used 2 seat kayaks and the person in back was really the one in control.

Canoeing flatwater, the rear paddler has most control and the bow paddler can act like a blind stoker. In whitewater, both paddlers are responsible for manuevering, though one or the other may have more leverage in a given situation due to boat position in the current. The stern paddler is accomodating the bow paddler by following their manuevers, but the manuevers need to be synchronized, and the easiest way to do that is for the stern paddler to watch the bow paddler and the bow paddler to watch the water. The stern paddler has a more limited view of the water but a better view of the boat, and can use their heavier weight to control the boat's lean. For tandem whitewater paddling, having the stern person in control involves lots of yelling (so the bow person know where to go) and occassional crossed signals. It's more efficient and elegant to have a team where the bow paddler picks the route.

[mimitabby]

Heh, so I take it, Mimi and Pam, that you don't want to hear about the time we went airborne at 62 mph over a steel decked bridge?

OK, I'd didn't enjoy it, but it shows that staying relaxed in an unplanned maneuver can save your hiney.

yes, I'd love to hear your story.

Sheesh, guys, i thought it was amazing when we got up to 49mph and I didn't have a coronary!

[Grog]

BF and I have been talking about a tandem since we first rode together. He's a much faster rider than me but we're nearly the same size: he's about 2 inches and 20 pounds heavier than I am, and we can use the same bikes (with adjustments).

So I was hoping that we could get a tandem where we could alternate positions. Did anyone ever try that? He's a great rider to draft from and I wouldn't have an issue riding in the back, but I'd also like to see the road sometimes, and to try captaining too.

Also another question: how did you guys who tandem with your life-partner get started? How did it impact your couple?

[mimitabby]

it hasn't impacted our "couple" at all except we can go on long bike rides together without him getting bored or cold from waiting for me to catch up ..
or.. him riding and me not riding because i get tired of seeing him disappear on the horizon.
we have the same squabbles as before, not serious though.
so there are trade offs as you see, but it is probably worth it if you don't crash.

how did we get started? some other tandem people took us.
me on the back of this fellow's bike, and D got the wife on the back of ours
and they instructed us.
the guy i was riding with is 6'3" like an old racehorse. he went really fast and
since i couldn't see anything it was just crazy fun. D had this really sensible
lady on the back telling him what to do. it was great. a great way to start.

[SheFly]

BF and I have been talking about a tandem since we first rode together. He's a much faster rider than me but we're nearly the same size: he's about 2 inches and 20 pounds heavier than I am, and we can use the same bikes (with adjustments).

So I was hoping that we could get a tandem where we could alternate positions. Did anyone ever try that? He's a great rider to draft from and I wouldn't have an issue riding in the back, but I'd also like to see the road sometimes, and to try captaining too.

Also another question: how did you guys who tandem with your life-partner get started? How did it impact your couple?

My hubby is 3" taller than me, and about 40 lbs heavier. I CANNOT manage this bike from the front position - it is too heavy for me. But, that is just my situation - you might be able to make it work for you.

Beware that tandems are affectionately known as "divorce machines". I know people who have said there is no way they could ride tandem with their mate. We have a great time together, BUT it has tested our relationship on more than one occasion! There have been threats of divorce, swearing, tears, etc.

We raced our MTB tandem one year before we were married. Hubby was an expert racer and I was a beginner. He went out way harder than I could manage to make up for me, and I went way harder than I should have to try and keep up. The BEST feeling, was finishing the race, turning to each other, and giving each other a hug. I married him anyway, and we've had so many great tandem adventures since then (oh, and we won the race :D ).

So, I guess my advice in a nutshell, is be prepared! A good day is a great day, and a bad day can turn ugly - even for the healthiest of relationships!

SheFly

[Trek420]

SadieKate "so I take it, Mimi and Pam, that you don't want to hear about the time we went airborne at 62 mph over a steel decked bridge?"

:::Surfs over, sits in front of the fire "oh auntie SK tell us about the time you and DH flew! And are we're still waiting for the tale of AV jersey sale to total stranger?? Or did I miss that? ahem"::::

OK, I don't have a tandem or comunicative considerate SO so it's all hypothetical but I'm thinking there goes that dream because for me "total loss of control, riding "dumb", can't see a d*** thing at 62 mph....I don't think so! :eek: I think I'd jump off :o

Did I mention I have control issues? ;)

Our (Bikeless and my) cousin and his fiance ride. I think he's doing the CA Triple Crown...again this year. He's asked if I want to do a Century with him on their Calfee tandem. I'm a little shorter than his fiance so fit's doable. And I guess for him hey, we're family, I've known him allllll my life, I ride, a Century's very doable so he's thinking there could be a ride he wants to do, his stoker's not available but I am....but :eek:

Maury says that tandems are more stable at high speed? True?

Q for the tandem riders: I've seen tandems with gals as captains and I read that strength is a factor for brakes etc but whoever's the more experienced cyclists for gearing especially that's who's captain?

[mimitabby]

SadieKate "so I take it, Mimi and Pam, that you don't want to hear about the time we went airborne at 62 mph over a steel decked bridge?"


Maury says that tandems are more stable at high speed? True?
?

Yes.. that's the laws of physics again. those little cracks in the pavement
aren't going to affect our momentum as we blast down a hill. But we toppled over trying to turn around slowly.
once we were going about 10mph and front tire caught a channel..
instead of going down as a single would have, the rear end just bounced a little and we kept going. it was amazing!

[SadieKate]

SadieKate "so I take it, Mimi and Pam, that you don't want to hear about the time we went airborne at 62 mph over a steel decked bridge?"

:::Surfs over, sits in front of the fire "oh auntie SK tell us about the time you and DH flew! And are we're still waiting for the tale of AV jersey sale to total stranger?? Or did I miss that? ahem"::::
Sheesh, you nag a lot.

Years ago, in our really dumb and dumber days, we rode the Napa Century (or something in that area). The course came down a straight long hill so we went the same speed as traffic (and other reasons which have been lost to history). Anyway, at the bottom was a stop sign and that steel decked draw bridge (is it still there). Anyway, no way were we going to be able to stop at the sign and then there was a small lip onto the steel deck. At that speed, it was flight. We were very stable as no one panicked. We just pretended we were on our mountain bikes.

Yep, mimi is right. Speed can be your friend but that is true on a single bike also.

The jersey story. Eh, I'm taking the 5th or drinking one, whichever is necessary. It was Kim's fault. She was the Chief Exective Decider that day. Those at the top must take all the risk and responsibility (don't go there, Trek, I can see the gears at work already.)

[Trek420]

I like to think of it as reminding :) bu thanks for reminding me ;-)

Years ago I think it was on the Lost Coast Century a tandem past me up a hill with a woman captain and her male stoker. He was an above-the-knee amputee.

So he's doing one-leg-drills with this massively muscled leg, she's captain. If your lurking here, hi!

I thought it was a wonderful way for them both to enjoy cycling 8-)

For those wondering if a tandem will make or break your relationship, Santana Tandems has a test:

http://www.santanatandem.com/tandemtest.html

[bcipam]

BF and I have been talking about a tandem since we first rode together. He's a much faster rider than me but we're nearly the same size: he's about 2 inches and 20 pounds heavier than I am, and we can use the same bikes (with adjustments).

So I was hoping that we could get a tandem where we could alternate positions. Did anyone ever try that? He's a great rider to draft from and I wouldn't have an issue riding in the back, but I'd also like to see the road sometimes, and to try captaining too.

Also another question: how did you guys who tandem with your life-partner get started? How did it impact your couple?

Grog:

It just doesn't work that way - the bigger, heavier, stronger peson must be the captain. The captain is responsible for controlling the bike and in particular while stopping being able to hold up the bike with the stoker intact. The stoker seldom if ever unclips from the pedals. If the bike starts to go over could you hang on to it with your husband attached? You can still see off to the side (if the speed is not too great). and a friend of mine uses a mirror to see behind her, what she has passed.

Most of my tandem experiences were with boyfriends. The first time the BF was a rider and had a tandem and talked me into riding it with him. He was a good and patient captain. Very communitive and made me feel secure. He was also a big strong guy (6'3", 240 solid pounds) so I knew he could control the bike if need be. We both really liked to ride individually but while tandeming still had a good time. It was just a different experience.

I have one friend however who she and her BF stopped talking for awhile after one bad experience (he did something stupid and dumped the bike). Probably best to have strong relationship in the first place!

[SheFly]

Grog:

The stoker seldom if ever unclips from the pedals.


Actually, I always unclip when we stop, although several of our riding cohorts do not. I am also bigger than most of them....

And the 62 mph flight story is frightening! I will admit that stopping the momentum of a tandem is a difficult thing to do.

SheFly

[SadieKate]

Yeah, let's just say it will NOT be repeated. It's just an example of how the stoker needs to stay calm and not move her body in reactive fear. Easier said that done, but you must trust the captain to know what he's doing (one reason I won't ride with just any old yahoo captain).

[DebW]

Sheesh, you nag a lot.

Years ago, in our really dumb and dumber days, we rode the Napa Century (or something in that area). The course came down a straight long hill so we went the same speed as traffic (and other reasons which have been lost to history). Anyway, at the bottom was a stop sign and that steel decked draw bridge (is it still there). Anyway, no way were we going to be able to stop at the sign and then there was a small lip onto the steel deck. At that speed, it was flight. We were very stable as no one panicked. We just pretended we were on our mountain bikes.


Was the drawbridge up or down? Are we picturing a little hop back onto the bridge or sailing over open water and taking a bath clipped to your bike?

[SadieKate]

Since we survived you can assume the "little hop." But at 62 mph, we were airborne for several feet, probably the length of the tandem.

[bikerz]

I would like to know what you guys said when you landed!

[mimitabby]

at least in a situation like this one, the stoker has time to "collect" herself.

[SadieKate]

I did? When? I did not know that bridge and the lip were there. At 62 mph I have my head tucked against his back and am "listening" to the feel of his body weight. I try to shut out other input so I don't risk leaning the wrong way.

[SadieKate]

I would like to know what you guys said when you landed!Who knows? Just pleased to report the shorts stayed clean.:o

[mimitabby]

I did? When? I did not know that bridge and the lip were there. At 62 mph I have my head tucked against his back and am "listening" to the feel of his body weight. I try to shut out other input so I don't risk leaning the wrong way.
oh! well at least i did the right thing when WE were going 49mph.. i did exactly that. tried to make myself small and not move right behind him.

[Veronica]

BF and I have been talking about a tandem since we first rode together. He's a much faster rider than me but we're nearly the same size: he's about 2 inches and 20 pounds heavier than I am, and we can use the same bikes (with adjustments).

So I was hoping that we could get a tandem where we could alternate positions. Did anyone ever try that? He's a great rider to draft from and I wouldn't have an issue riding in the back, but I'd also like to see the road sometimes, and to try captaining too.

Also another question: how did you guys who tandem with your life-partner get started? How did it impact your couple?


Thom and I are nearly the same size and we have traded positions on the tandem with no problem. I wanted to learn how to captain so I could ride with a friend in a women's only ride. I don't really like being the captain - that I find stressful. But it was a good experience and we had a blast on the ride.

We wrote about our decision to buy a tandem in 2002 here.

http://www.tandemhearts.com/bike/index.html

Tandeming did nothing for our relationship. :D Except give us more time together.

V.

[SadieKate]

You can always try the Assos bib tights for relationship issues on the tandem.:rolleyes:

[Grog]

Thanks to all who responded! I'll check out the links.

This is not a short-term project, as I don't even know where we'd put the bike right now (we live in a campus residence), but it's good to start talking about it. We'll try to rent one first and see what happens...

Thanks!!!

[snowtulip]

I rode mtb. tandem with hubby before I started riding single. He's 11 inches taller and about 100 lbs heavier than me. :eek: I love tandem riding, I love being the stoker and because of the size difference, will never be the captain. After we did some jumps on the tandem, I decided I had to try a single bike (so glad, can't imagine life without mtb. riding on single).

Communication takes time, it also helps if the captain tries stoking for awhile (they get a first hand look at the importance of communicating everything, even if it seems ridiculous at first).

[salsabike]

We got started two years ago when our family doc, a major jock, heard we were both riding a lot and said, "Oohooh, why don't you guys train to do the STP on a tandem? I've done it on a tandem the last eight years and it's so much fun!" We rented one and took it for a 20-mile ride, and had a blast. Ended up finding a 91 Burley for, um, $350 at Recycled Cycles.

My husband Chris is the captain because he is by far the more experienced and skilled cyclist. He is a really good captain. He read up on basic tandem etiquette before our first ride (warn stoker about any changes, like Mimitabby's sidewalk thing; announce stops, turns, bumps, etc.) and has practiced it quite well since the beginning. Neither of us find it more stressful than singles riding; just different--he has to concentrate more and can't zone out as he does on his single. I love both kinds of riding. And as Mimitabby says, it sure smooths out speed differences that get in the way of riding together on singles.

Tandem riding does a nice job of amplifying whatever relationship you have. If it's fundamentally polite and not full of control struggles, you can have fun; if there are "issues" about good manners and power conflicts, you'll get a real CLOSE view of them on the tandem. That being said, some people just plain never like it as much as singles riding, even if they have the most polite and even-powered relationship in the world. But if you do like it, and each partner is willing, the etiquette can be learned and practiced pretty consistently, and then it's just SUCH a blast. It takes lots of conscious practice and it is work for the captain to always be aware of having to announce stuff.

[Tuckervill]

Beware that tandems are affectionately known as "divorce machines". I know people who have said there is no way they could ride tandem with their mate.

I've heard the same thing about hanging wallpaper. :)

My husband has always dreamed of riding a big ol' motorcycle together, but there is NO WAY I am getting on the back of a machine with him in control. I rarely can tolerate him driving a car with me as passenger. We don't share canoes, either. So, yes, we have power issues.

And then, we have a 15 inch gap between our heights and 100 pounds between our weights. (He's 6'7", I'm 5'4") Even if there were possibly a tandem bike that fit him, I wouldn't want to be sitting looking at his behind the whole time. Then, even if he tried stoking once to see what it was like, he'd just be able to see over me--but he wouldn't fit on the seat anyway.

I admire couples that can ride tandem or canoe together or hang wallpaper. :) I'm just not part of one.

On the plus side, DH did go and take his first solo ride around town the other day, after I took him on a 14 mile ride earlier in the week. That's a major accomplishment for my non-athletic, tall, geeky, funny looking but adorable husband. :)

Karen

[Shimpie]

Tee hee! My fiancee and I have a 16 inch difference. :eek: He's 6'4" and I'm 5'0" He's all leg and I'm all torso with short stubby legs. When we sit next to each other, the height difference isn't as extreme. I don't even think a tandem exists out there that would fit the two of us.

[wabisabi]

Hee, hee; my friends who ride a tandem call it their "marriage accelerator."

[bcipam]

Tee hee! My fiancee and I have a 16 inch difference. :eek: He's 6'4" and I'm 5'0" He's all leg and I'm all torso with short stubby legs. When we sit next to each other, the height difference isn't as extreme. I don't even think a tandem exists out there that would fit the two of us.


I regularly see this couple on event rides... he appears to be around 6'4" and she around 5'. When she sits behind her husband on the bike, her face is directly in - yes that's right, his crack. Can you imagine doing a century that way? Those that have done the So Cal rides I'm sure have seen this couple.

[Susan Otcenas]

I admit it. I'm a control freak. When Jeff & I bought a tandem, people thought we were nuts (we already spend 23.5 hours a day within 10 feet or each other, did we really need a tandem too???), but we've had alot of fun on it. The most stressful thing for me is the out-of-control feeling on descents. I love riding fast descents on my single, but on the tandem, they freak me out unless they are long and straight. Twisty and steep descents on the tandem usually have me squealing in fear. So in compromise, he brakes more than he'd like to, and I close my eyes and try to trust more.

But other than that, I've managed to get over most of my control issues on the tandem. Jeff has learned to communicate bumps, turns, etc. I've learned to ask for gear changes if I'm uncomfortable, and ask for a coast-and-stand moment if I need a butt break.

Together we've learned that we can communicate through the pedals. We've been riding long enough that subtle changes in pressure on the pedals by one or the other usually transmits a desire to work harder or slow down/cease pedaling. Those of you who have been riding together with the same person for a long time probably know what I'm trying to express here.

Mimi, I do have a suggestion for training your captain. The captain you rode with initially? Have him take your husband out for a ride, with your husband as the stoker. Ask him (without your husband's knowledge) to do the things that you dislike. ie. abruptly ceasing to pedal, not calling out bumps, making unexpected turns, etc. Your husband needs to understand how it feels to be out of control, and out of communication, before he can empathize with your concerns. After the ride, clue him in to your evil plot. :D After being a stoker, he will be a much better captain.

Nonetheless, Jeff & I do bicker occasionally on the tandem. This is usually Jeff's cue to make sure I'm eating enough. I tend to get grumpy (and take it out on him) when I don't manage my ride nutiition well. :o

Susan

[mimitabby]

Hey Susan, i like your idea. The trouble is, if i get those two guys on a tandem together everyone is going to KNOW why!
on last night's ride my husband made the mistake of complaining about me
(as a stoker) to that very person and he took my side
:eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D
that'll teach him.

on the other hand, last night ALL of those guys were going down the hills faster than I like. :mad: