smart falling?

[latelatebloomer]

Hi, support team (estrogen) - the rides are going great, but I had my second fall. This time I wiped out on gravel as I made a sharp turn, probably didn't help that it had rained 2 hours before. As I went down, I instrictively tried to catch myself on left knee and both palms. I don't think that was smart, but falls happen so quickly....How to fall smarter in the blink of an eye? I'm seriously considering calling an Akido sensei I know to see if he can help.

Now that I know to ice right away, I'm hoping knee and hand bounce back fast. And I used arnica, and....um...tequila.:rolleyes:

[Fredwina]

Suuposedly you should try and 'Roll' i.e , keep your hands tucked in. If you stick them out (which is quite instictive), there's a chance you can break your collarbone(not a good thing). Of course, this assumes you know your'e falling and can't do anything about. I think some people (mainly racing types), practice falling, so they get in habit
of doing this. Make me glad I don't race....

[RoadRaven]

YAY!!! Lets hear it for arnica!!!!!

Sorry about your fall, LateLate always a bugger!

Um... I know you're ok... but hows the bike? Priorities, y'know? :p

Seriously... I don't know that there is a smart way to fall, I have only had one major crash and rolled in that several times... but that was not a concious descision.

I knew I had to get off the road pronto but I'll be damned if my body would do what my head was telling it - fortunatly a couple of marshalls were at that particulalr corner and got me and the bike off the road.

[salsabike]

See this thread on BikeForums. There is some really useful info there about this question.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=132521&highlight=falling

[Trekhawk]

Oh no!!!! Glad to hear you are ok.
Tips for falling - sounds good to me.

[Trek420]

Glad to hear that you're ok.

And working on falls if you know an Aikido (or any other Martial Art where we throw each other in the spirit of loving protection for all things gleefully across the room) sensei sounds like a good idea, great cross training too :)

Aikido is something I do, and it takes a lot of work, years, decades to learn to fall well, it's a lifetime thing.

That's not to say you can't learn a few things quickly that will help. It's hard to know where to begin in this but I'll be glad to try to toss out a few tips ...once I bring in the groceries.

[roughingit]

I've had a couple of those slo-mo ohnoImstillclippedin! falls where you knew you were going to fall. I try to bring my arm in and just fall on my side and shoulder. Figure that way the impact is more distributed.

[Trek420]

that's perfect, Grasshopper! :D

[Tuckervill]

I fell yesterday, too.

We had a rain overnight. I was approaching a wood-decked bridge over a creek on the bike trail. It's 90 degree left turn from the path, with a post in the middle to keep motorized vehicles off. I always hit it kind of fast, straightening the curve and sliding between the post and the bridge rail, which is about head high. The bridge is an arch so it's easy to lose speed going up, so I was leaning into the fast turn after the post to avoid the other side of the bridge...leaned too far for traction and my bike slid out from under me. The deck boards were all swollen up and smooth from the rain, and my nobby tires just couldn't get the grip anymore.

Luckily I hit the deck on my left hip and thigh, brushed my elbow a little. It was a sudden stop, but the bike kept on sliding towards the rail. It stopped right before it could have slipped off into the creek.

I knew my 12 yo son was coming to meet me soon, so I hopped up and grabbed the cell phone to warn him of the bridge, because he takes it the same way I do. He was still at home, and that was my biggest sense of relief.

I'm a little sore on the thigh, but otherwise no damage. My bike shorts had splinters, though.

That was my first potentially painful fall. I didn't have time to put my hands down. My first ever fall, though, looked like the guy on the tricycle on Laugh-In. Changed my mind about hopping a curb at just the wrong time, and simply fell over into the grass. :o

It occurred to me yesterday that, yep, falls happen and there's nothing I can do to prevent them each and every time, no matter how careful I am. No point in worrying about them too much...just be prepared. I probably should do some time on the trampoline doing body rolls to get used to the sensation again.

Karen

[Trek420]

Tuckerville,

Glad you're ok, those poles always scare me. It'll be "see the pole, ride smack right into the pole" for me.

Yes, the trampoline's a great idea, get used to the feel of falling.

Falls happen and you can't "think through them". If you practice falling it may just be part of your body memorie.

Velogirl told me (hope you don't mind my quoting you VG) that her racers do falling drills with a handlebar.

Just the handlebar, not the whole bike ;)

I presume this is to get the idea of keeping your hands in front of you not out stopping the fall.

That's very much a martial arts way of teaching falling. In Aikido that is one of the things we stress, keep your hands in front of you. If you can see your hands, they are not out stopping your motion.

Velogirl (Lorri) also told me that instinctivly those sliding type falls we don't want road rash and may instinctivly move in a way that the fall is sudden. But road rash heals gals, those sudden type falls are where internal injury occurs.

Best to tuck and roll if you have a nanosecond to choose.

But things happen so fast you can't think through it so....wear your helmets, err on the side of caution TE gals.

[latelatebloomer]

Good morning, all - thanks for the tips & sympathy. Thanks to quick icing & arnica, I'm slightly sore and that's all. My cheapie workout gloves look very broken-in now :rolleyes: better them than my epidermis -(other newbies, don't go out without gloves - clearly, even the cheapest make-do will help a lot.)

The pretty blue "Swallow" is fine, RR - but I must have spun the front wheel as I caught myself on both hands, because the right shifter/brake was pushed crooked even though I fell to the left. DH was able to push it back and it seems ok.

Thanks for the link to the Bike Forum, those are good tips, too, but it really does come down to how to get the body to do the right thing instinctively. I owe my Aikido pals a call anyway - so I will see if George is willing to help me get a "tuck" instinct rather than a "brace" instinct.

And I know where I made my mistake. A sharp gravely left turn in the middle of a steep descent. I delayed my turn waiting for an oncoming pickup truck, and made the turn too sharp, too slow. I shoulda just stopped higher up and waited a moment for the truck to pass, and taken the corner on the crown, to get cleaner pavement. 'Tis better not to fall at all!

And just to prove that I must really be a cyclist, I'll be out there again this afternoon. Even though I fell, I'm jubilant about the hill I ate. It used to make me stop twice, once in the middle, once at at the top to get my breath. (I think of "eating" hills because of that old Joan Armitrading song - Some days the bear will eat you, some days you eat the bear...:p )

and Road Raven, your hill climb advice on another thread was great. Thanks, buddy.

[Trek420]

latelatebloomer glad that you and the your bike are ok

"I will see if George is willing to help me get a "tuck" instinct rather than a "brace" instinct."

I sure he can, just takes practice, practice, practice, practice. And it's fun.

BTW, what dojo does George teach at? I train with Pat Hendricks at San Leandro Aikido.

found a pretty good example of a basic Aikido style roll

http://www.aikido-world.com/highlights/technical%20_tips/ukemi-forward.htm

Discloser: do not attempt this at home or without an instructor. There's an easy way to get to this point, and from here to breakfalls. But trying to learn from a video....not good.

Aikido falls are not summersaults. Summeraults the impact goes over the head, down the back to the base of the spine, then there's a gap till *boink* impact on the knees. So the impact is on the vulnerable spinal column.

Aikido falls can begin at any point in the circle although the basic training is from the feet back up again. But the roll follows the outside of the arm, across the shoulders, *across* the spine-not down it, follows the hip and then you could either stay down, or go back up to your feet.

Don't forget to breath! I'm convinced a lot of fall injuries are because we hold our breath.

Have fun learing with George.

[RoadRaven]

Glad you're ok, those poles always scare me. It'll be "see the pole, ride smack right into the pole" for me.


This is actually a recognised phenomanom (sp?).

An article in a the local AA magazine (thats Automobile Assoc) was discussing why, when they have a whole road and side of road, motorbikes will so often crash into a tree or a power pole...

They found that the riders were so busy concentrating on/watching the tree/pole/whatever to make sure they didn't crash if they got out of control, that they actually ended up aiming for it.

The same thing was happening if they watched oncoming headlights.

So the trick is to look for the space between the poles, or to the side of lights - and hopefully that is where you will end up, rather than wrapped around something unforgiving.

[Trek420]

Yep, look where you wanna go.

If faced with the dreaded FU fall say "ooh, that patch of grass looks comfy" :D and fall there.

But that belongs in the "fall avoidance" thread rather than smart falling. No, wait, better to avoid the fall in the first place so I guess it fits.

[Grog]

Tuck and roll.

Practice it so it becomes almost second nature, so you don't have to "think" when a fall occurs. I had a "emergency-exit of the bike" workshop with my club, in a gym, practicing rolls. We practiced jumping off the bike onto a big big mattress, that wasn't too bad either.

But of course try not to fall, first. Careful on corners...

Sorry about your fall, I hope you heal quickly...

[CR400]

I find myself gripping the poor bike harder and then rolling to the left side when I fall. I will do anything within my power to fall left not right onto my drivetrain. The one time I did an endo I tucked my head and rolled over the bars, but I forgot to let go of the bike so it fell on top of me giving me a bloody nose. Practice safe falling untill you don't think about it is best.

[Trek420]

there are lots of structured ways to practice falling, trampoline, cycling specific workshops, skiing, gymnastics, skating (ouch)....one of the most likely ways is martial arts because at a good school that's going to be the very first thing you work on.

We need our training partners to be safe, if they can't take a fall out of the throw we'd quickly run out of people to train with :p So a good schools will slowly, methodicly and safely teach you how to fall from a variety of impacts at your own speed.

There are lots of arts to choose from, from the so called hard styles like Karate, Kung Fu, Kick Boxing or Soft Styles like Aikido, Wushu, Jiu Jitsu, Tai Chi, Kung Fu (wait a minute, didn't you list that in...).

The "soft" styles are more likely to teach falls. Hard styles often will not at all.

But if you're looking at a class specificly to learn to fall ask the teacher if they will give private lessons for that one thing. It's the honest thing to do.

Some schools have a specific night that concentrates on one aspect of the art. I know a few schools who have "ukemi" (that's Japanese for falling) class.

Now: how to pick a school.

Kind of like choosing a bike. If you know anyone who trains, ask. Look for announcments, adds, fliers, google it. Now pick a few schools and go watch a class. Things to look for:

Watch the beginners, how are they treated? If you like this thing you're going to be a begginer for a looooong *** time, all your life really. No one should be pushed beyond what they can do, is there anyone with an injury? How are they treated? My teacher finds creative safe ways for people to train through injury. When Bruce broke his arm we ALL trained one armed for weeks. You know, you could be attacked while carrying groceries and don't want to put them down, it could happen :cool: She had a hip flexor injury recently and taught....from a chair. Do they do warm ups? Again, people should be challenged to do their best but no one should be training through pain.

Now: watch the advanced people. You should feel a sense of "wow :eek: :p I want to do that"

That's your school.

Don't get too wrapped up in the style, at advanced levels if you stick with this (good winter training after all) hard styles have flowing sweeps and throws, so called soft styles like Aikido can be abrubt, brutal especially with mutliple opponents.

Just as you're looking for a frame that fits with a bike, you're looking for a teacher in a school.

Now: long words about why rolling (instead of summersaults) work.

There are tremendous stresses, centrifigal force on your head and neck when you fall. And even with a hemet you want to keep your head from slapping like a over ripe melon on the pavement.

Try this with a partner. Don't have someone handy at the moment? You should still be able to feel the difference by simply raising your head when your body is at an angle.

Flat on the floor (eww, I gotta vacuum) knees up like for crunches, hands at your sides. Raise your head straight up, what your partner does very very gently maybe just two fingers on your forhead is push down. Likely this will push your head right back down. Or do the opposite, same position, SO (gently, don't want to strain your neck) puts two fingers on your forhead and try to bring your head up. Except for V, this'll probably be hard.

Now, think 45 degree angle, you're going to turn a bit, one hip and matching shoulder is off the floor, both hands up in front of you, elbows bent as if catching a ball, and you're looking down towards your feet in the direction that you're turned, you're basicly curled a bit but in a spiral towards your feet. Now your head's already up so have your partner push down.

If I've described this correctly it's going to be much harder.

On a traditional summersault only the muscles on the side of the neck are involved pretty much. What an Aikido (or other martial art) falling position does is activates/involves all the muscles to support your head, your back, traps, core, abs all involved.

to find a local Aikido dojo near you:

www.ai-ki-do.org

I can point to other resources for other arts if you want.

I've been hit by a car, another time took a picture pefect forward roll with the bike off Alameda Creek Trail. Although I never ever want to try this again especialy the being hit by the car thing .... the stuff works. Does take practice though.