Hand Signal Nightmares

[Aint Doody]

I've been riding to work lately and have had 2 incidents in the last week that have absolutely infuriated me. Last week I was on my hybrid and stopped at a light. As I was going to turn right, I had my right arm out to indicate a right turn. As the light was turning green, some guy on his bike zipped right by me on the right and headed up the bridge. It startled me; then it made me mad. I chased him down and told him to please let somebody know before he went flying by them. He informed me I had made an illegal turn signal, and that he even thought about hitting my hand as he went by! He then showed me the left arm bent and said that was the correct hand signal. I informed him that additionally the right arm extended is also correct and that I choose to use it as not everybody is sure what the left arm bent means.

Then today I'm going down another street and again have my right arm out signaling a right turn and this fellow in his Bronco cuts right in front of me and goes right! He parked in front of the PO and I told him that he'd pulled right in front of me. He started yelling that I'd used an illegal hand signal! I calmly said, "You knew I was turning right, and my signal is a legal right turn signal on a bicycle." He kept yelling and I said I'd let the police know. He then called me a bi@#*. So I went around the block and got his tag number. As he was coming out of the PO, I yelled his license number. (Guess that wasn't called for, but I did it anyway.)

So I called the state offices to be sure of the laws. The bicycle safety person said that I was correct. Then I called the police. An officer came by, and I told him what had happened. He, too, said I used an illegal signal! I told him I'd checked with the state dept. and that I was right. Anyway he said he'd contact the motorist. He asked if I wanted to file a complaint. I didn't, but he said he'd contact the motorist. (He knows him.)

So--y'all, we have to make people aware of what's going on here. Probably I'm preaching to the choir, but it makes me feel better to put this down.

There's a great website from a law firm in Portland, OR that we all should take a look at:

http://www.stc-law.com/bikearticles.html

[Blueberry]

As I was going to turn right, I had my right arm out to indicate a right turn. As the light was turning green, some guy on his bike zipped right by me on the right and headed up the bridge. It startled me; then it made me mad. I chased him down and told him to please let somebody know before he went flying by them. He informed me I had made an illegal turn signal, and that he even thought about hitting my hand as he went by! He then showed me the left arm bent and said that was the correct hand signal. I informed him that additionally the right arm extended is also correct and that I choose to use it as not everybody is sure what the left arm bent means.

What a little sh*t. Perhaps he should realize that had he intentionally hit you, he'd be in heaps of trouble.

That's so frustrating - I usually use the bent arm, but have always understood both to be correct. I've had better results with the arm straight out as far as motorists are concerned.

Good luck!

[tamara_69]

I have had the same arguments with my SIL and her husband, and they cycle too! Bicycling Magazine's book, 1000 All-Time Best Tips states, "For right turns, hold out your right arm with finger pointed. Forget that business about signaling right turns with the left arm held up. It originated because motorists couldn't reach across to point out the right window." It just makes more sense to me, too. Sorry you had two frustating incidents this week!

[E2theD]

You would be right in CA too if it makes you feel any better... :p

Hand Signals. VC 22111

All required signals given by hand and arm shall be given in the following manner:

1. Left turn-hand and arm extended horizontally beyond the side of the bicycle.
2. Right turn- left hand and arm extended upward beyond the side of the bicycle or right hand and arm extended horizontally to the right side of the bicycle.
3. Stop or sudden decrease of speed signal- left hand and arm extended downward beyond the side of the bicycle.

[Deanna]

Not only are they legal for cyclists and motorcyclists, but you made your intentions clear, which they admit by saying you are using the "wrong" arm signal.

Don't these people realize the only reason you can't use a straight right arm in a car is because the drivers arms aren't long enough to fit out the right side window! I've gotten yelled at for this before and I'm thinking of printing up little copies of this particular vehicle code to carry with me on my commutes.

[Dianyla]

I'd say that both @#$%heads in this situation knew exactly what you were signaling and they knew they were in the wrong. Sadly, the only way they could think to respond when confronted was to try to blame you for a technicality. I mean, how hard is it to just apologize? :confused:

[Susan126]

How infuriating! Print this and show those idiots!

http://kidshealth.org/kid/watch/out/bike_safety_p2.html

[KnottedYet]

I almost always use the right arm to point in the direction I intend to go. Cars just don't get the left arm bit around my neighborhood.

[luv'nAustin]

I've ridden with several groups in Austin and we all use the right arm with a pointed finger. How can anyone misunderstand that gesture? :confused:

[Duck on Wheels]

I've ridden with several groups in Austin and we all use the right arm with a pointed finger. How can anyone misunderstand that gesture? :confused:

Did these pr%&#s mean you were supposed to use the left arm bent upwards with finger pointed? I know what finger I'd have pointed in their direction! OK, so I too get p"#¤¤#ssed off at "idiots" I think are doing something wrong -- and sometimes it turns out I'm the one who's got it wrong. Luckily, I give myself time to look it up after, cuz I DON'T set out to teach'em a lesson by hitting them! (Well ... there was a time I considered getting steel-toed boots for kicking cars that cut me off in cross-walks, but I never got around to it.)

[Aint Doody]

I think that one thing that really got me was the policeman telling me I made an illegal signal! What an idiot! I was soooo glad that I'd called and made absolutely sure before I called the police.

[Trekhawk]

I think that one thing that really got me was the policeman telling me I made an illegal signal! What an idiot! I was soooo glad that I'd called and made absolutely sure before I called the police.

What can you say about idiots like that except that they are taking up way too much space on this planet.

Im with bikeless I can think of some lovely hand signals they might prefer.:D

[Popoki_Nui]

I've ridden with several groups in Austin and we all use the right arm with a pointed finger. How can anyone misunderstand that gesture? :confused:

-because drivers are taught to watch for left-arm signals, and haven't a clue what pointing with the right arm means...they think you're pointing at something not making a signal,
-because most drivers can't see the right-arm-out signal as well as they can see the left-arm-up one, especially in traffic, downtown, when you're cruising in a group
-because in most normal places, one set of arm signals applies to ALL vehicles on the road...cars and bikes...and that would be left-arm signalling only
-because a cyclist is often slowing in preparation for the turn, and using the right arm to signal means using the left hand to work the FRONT brake....often a great way to eat your handlebars and get those shiny new teeth you've always wanted. I've actually seen people swap brakes from left-handle/front brake, to left-handle/rear brake to avoid this. No kidding.
Around here...left-arm signalling is the law. Using the right arm to signal right is "acceptable" according to local spokeheads, but the lawyers say if you get into or cause a wreck, then you're in deep doo-doo.

[madisongrrl]

I never use "legal" hand signals....I point to where I'm turning (right hand for rt turns, left hand for left turns). Most people don't know what "legal" hand signals mean so I figure I'm safer this way.

[Popoki_Nui]

I never use "legal" hand signals....I point to where I'm turning (right hand for rt turns, left hand for left turns). Most people don't know what "legal" hand signals mean so I figure I'm safer this way.

Well...I really hope you don't wind up in court, and worse...being scraped up off the road because the driver who mowed you down didn't know what you were pointing at. Bad news, either way.

Sorry...I have a thing about road safety; I've seen too many cyclists get reall, really dead because they and/or the driver didn't understand one another and their legal responsibilities while sharing the road. The cyclist always loses. Be safe. :)

[Nanci]

Signaling Turns (see Sub-section 316.155(2) and 316.157(2), F.S.)

* A signal of intention to turn must be given during the last 100 feet traveled by the vehicle before turning. If a bicyclist needs both hands for control, the signal need not be given continuously.

* A bicyclist may signal intent to turn right either by extending the left hand and arm upward or by extending the right hand and arm horizontally to the right side of the bicycle.

[Geonz]

And, of course, what the general population knows and recognizes can be different from one country to another.

Remember, we're talking *right* turns. Also duly note that in both cases the people calling the technicality were totally and completely aware of what she was signalling, which means that they recognized it, so that not only was it legal on paper, it was doing its job. Letter and spirit of the law were working - the other cyclist and driver were wrong in both directions as well.

I'd like to see good car-like signals; that's what people more automatically respond to. However, in the case of these two menaces, that doesn't seem to be the issue.

[mtbdarby]

Interesting thread as I will be teaching this in a kids bike rodeo in a couple of weeks. Only 23 states have changed their laws to allow for a right arm signal for a right turn. Wisconsin does not consider the right arm signal a legal signal:

http://folio.legis.state.wi.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?clientID=20831853&infobase=stats.nfo&jump=346.35

Guess we all need to periodically check our laws on such things. Either way, those two people knew what you were signally and should have respected it.

[fatbottomedgurl]

We talked about this on the tips and tricks section. As far as the bent right arm, I don't think a lot of people know what that is - especially no license/ insurance type people that didn't go to work on Monday...

Sorry you were called a name. I hollered at an unsafe driver once and he called me a fat cow. Ouch! So I turned around and apologized for yelling and not being civil. He was very sheepish knowing how hurtful his comment was. (And he could lose 75 lbs himself!) Talk about heaping coals on your enemy's head.

[Deanna]

We talked about this on the tips and tricks section. As far as the bent right arm, I don't think a lot of people know what that is - especially no license/ insurance type people that didn't go to work on Monday...

This post reminded me of an experience using arm signals. I once had the motorist across the way look to see what I was pointing at. Since less and less motorists use the turn signals included in our cars (sometimes it seems so bad I joke that turn signals are now only an 'option' in new cars), how can we expect them to know what an arm signal is?

[madisongrrl]

Well...I really hope you don't wind up in court, and worse...being scraped up off the road because the driver who mowed you down didn't know what you were pointing at. Bad news, either way.

Sorry...I have a thing about road safety; I've seen too many cyclists get reall, really dead because they and/or the driver didn't understand one another and their legal responsibilities while sharing the road. The cyclist always loses. Be safe. :)

If I have to get scraped up off the road it won't be because I used an illegal hand signal.... It will be because some motorist was not paying attention. They were eating their McDonalds or fumbling with their IPOD or talking on their cell phones. I used to use legal hand signals, but people here in Madison, WI just don't seem to understand them. Now, I make eye contact with motorists and point to where I'm turning. I think it is safer.

After all, (in WI) all you have to do is take a written test to get your license when you turn 16. You never have to revisit the rules of the road to renew your license. People don't even know the rules of the road or heed them when driving, let alone know anything about hand signals that they never use and rarely see. I think driving skills have sunk to an all time low.

[Aint Doody]

You are absolutely right Geonz--they both knew perfectly well that I was indicating a right turn. I think they also both knew that they were wrong but were blaming me for their stupidity. That is sorta a "man thing" in a lot of cases. I'm not aiming for male bashing here--just pointing out something that I understand from being married for over 30 years--to 3 different men!

[snowbear]

What about pointing with your right arm, signaling with your left, and biking with no hands?
...yeah, not helpful, sorry. :D

Useful information to know, though. Thanks!

[DirtDiva]

Or maybe a grab a couple of flags out of your pack and do some semaphore... :p

It's not an issue in NZ. You stick out your arm in the direction you want to go. I got my learner licence over a decade ago and there was nothing in the theory about making hand signals; if your car (or trailer) doesn't have functioning indicators, it's not considered roadworthy.

Not really sure what the rules are in the UK, but arm out works just fine.

[amg]

-because drivers are taught to watch for left-arm signals, and haven't a clue what pointing with the right arm means...they think you're pointing at something not making a signal,
-because most drivers can't see the right-arm-out signal as well as they can see the left-arm-up one, especially in traffic, downtown, when you're cruising in a group
-because in most normal places, one set of arm signals applies to ALL vehicles on the road...cars and bikes...and that would be left-arm signalling only
-because a cyclist is often slowing in preparation for the turn, and using the right arm to signal means using the left hand to work the FRONT brake....often a great way to eat your handlebars and get those shiny new teeth you've always wanted. I've actually seen people swap brakes from left-handle/front brake, to left-handle/rear brake to avoid this. No kidding.
Around here...left-arm signalling is the law. Using the right arm to signal right is "acceptable" according to local spokeheads, but the lawyers say if you get into or cause a wreck, then you're in deep doo-doo.

Actually, the province of BC motor vehicles act says the following:

Province of British Columbia Motor Vehicle Act
Rights and Duties of Operator of Cycle

183
(17) A person operating a cycle on a highway must signify

(a) a left turn by extending the person's left hand and arm horizontally from the cycle,
(b) a right turn by doing either of the following:

(i) extending the person's left hand and arm out and upward from the cycle so that the upper and lower parts of the arm are at right angles;
(ii) extending the person's right hand and arm horizontally from the cycle, and
(c) a stop or decrease in speed by extending the person's left hand and arm out and down from the cycle.

So I'm not sure how many legs the lawyers would have to stand on.

I've commuted to work and school in Vancouver, and found that many drivers actually think the right hand up means you're stopping! No one really seems to remember hand signals after learning them for their initial drivers test.

So I've adopted a technique I've seen used by other bike commuters - first use the left arm up signal, then use the right arm out signal. Sure I have to slow down for the corner a bit sooner, but I'd rather be a bit slower and be sure people are paying attention to me than get squashed. At the very least, with all the arm movement they'll be watching and wondering what I'm going to do next! :)

[Popoki_Nui]

Actually, the province of BC motor vehicles act says the following:

Province of British Columbia Motor Vehicle Act
Rights and Duties of Operator of Cycle

183
(17) A person operating a cycle on a highway must signify

(a) a left turn by extending the person's left hand and arm horizontally from the cycle,
(b) a right turn by doing either of the following:
[INDENT](i) extending the person's left hand and arm out and upward from the cycle so that the upper and lower parts of the arm are at right angles;
(ii) extending the person's right hand and arm horizontally from the cycle, and.....

Wow...someone should tell the head cop of the traffic division! A couple of weeks ago on a local talk show, the head of the VictoriaPD traffic division, the head of the new Integrated Traffic Unit, and some guy from the local cycling coalition were kicking this subject around on the air. I emailed the show to get clarification: both cops stated clearly that right-arm signals were not legal, while the cycling coalition guy claimed they were "acceptable". :confused: :confused: :confused:
Go figger.
~Sherry.

[Susan Otcenas]

I think that one thing that really got me was the policeman telling me I made an illegal signal! What an idiot! I was soooo glad that I'd called and made absolutely sure before I called the police.

This type of thing really burns me up. We rely on our police officers to protect our rights, but many are uneducated about what our rights (and responsibilities) are.

You should write a letter to the chief of police AND the local newspaper editor. A few months ago, a police officer in Hillsboro made an erroneous statement (quoted in the newspaper) regarding when a cyclist was allowed to ride on the sidewalk.

I wrote a letter to the mayor, the chief of police, and the editor of the paper. (I told the editor that not only was the police officer wrong, but that by printing the statement in the paper without chicking it's validity, that readers would assume it was a fact!). I received both a phone call and a letter from the police, who researched the issue and admitted they were wrong.

If you want a copy of the letter to use as a "template", let me know. I'll email it to you.

(BTW, congrats on your new bike commuting routine!! Don't let this get you down...)

Susan

[fixedgeargirl]

Texas Vehicle Code:

Sec. 545.107. Method of Giving Hand and Arm Signals.

An operator who is permitted to give a hand and arm signal shall give the signal from the left side of the vehicle as follows:

(1) to make a left turn signal, extend hand and arm horizontally;

(2) to make a right turn signal, extend hand and arm upward, except that a bicycle operator may signal from the right side of the vehicle with the hand and arm extended horizontally; and

(3) to stop or decrease speed, extend hand and arm downward.

Besides all that, it just seems so logically obvious: "I am going this ------> way, the way I am pointing." It seems it would be *natural*, and quicker, to recognize a person's intention if they are pointing somewhere they intend to go, rather than try to recall an arcane set of rules about bent elbows.

[Aint Doody]

You know, Susan, I think a letter to the editor is a really good idea--especially since we have our big ride coming up Memorial Day Week-end. That way many more people will see it who will actually be driving the streets of Pendleton. I can't do much about the morons who don't read, however.

So all y'all TE girls out there--let's do that! We can educate the masses--at least those who read newspapers.

[Susan Otcenas]

Here's the letter I wrote to the police chief:

______________________
Dear Commander Bonnett:

I was dismayed to read the following quote in the Hillsboro Argus on Tuesday, March 28th:

"At a sidewalk crossing, a bicyclist is supposed to dismount and walk across," [Lt. Michael] Rouches said.

This statement is not factually or legally accurate, and I am concerned that our Hillsboro Police officers are apparently not receiving adequate training in how to enforce laws pertaining to bicyclists.

In fact, there is no such requirement under Oregon law. Under ORS 814.410, “a bicyclist on a sidewalk or in a crosswalk has the same rights and duties as a pedestrian on a sidewalk or in a crosswalk.” There is a clause which requires cyclists to slow to no faster than a walking speed while using a crosswalk, but that in no way means that cyclists must dismount and walk through a crosswalk.

As a Hillsboro business owner, and regular bike commuter into Hillsboro from Beaverton, I count on the Hillsboro Police to protect me and defend my rights when necessary. Please get back to me soon and let me know how you intend to make sure that Hillsboro Police receive improved training on laws that apply to bicyclists.

Sincerely,


Susan Otcenas
President
Team Estrogen


CC: Mayor Tom Hughes, City of Hillsboro
Evan Manvel, Executive Director, Bicycle Transportation Alliance
Gary Stutzman, Editor, Hillsboro Argus
______________________

The BTA is a statewide organization. You should feel free to cc: Evan. The letter can be modified pretty easily to fit the circumstance.

Baseically
1) State what happened
2) State why it's wrong
3) State what you want them to do about it.
4) Let the reader know you are a "constituent". Carries more weight.

Hope this helps!

Susan