Helicopter parents

[shootingstar]

Over protective parents who can't let go of their adult children...helping them do coursework even in high school, lobbying for kids' marks in college, accompanying for job interviews (ok parents shouldn't be in hiring firm's waiting area. Just drive to a café, while adult child has job interview..)

http://www.vancouversun.com/life/parenting/helicopter+parents+hovering+ever+closer+experts/7832822/story.html

I'm not a parent. But I will say this: I was raised by strict parents: we ( 6 of us) were never allowed to go to friends' homes for sleepovers, we didn't go camping with other teens by being driven by other teen friends and have a couple of beers. Parents had no problems if we went to a restaurant to have some wine and meal. They just didn't want us at teen party unsupervised with booze.

Yes, I do consider my adulthood, starting when I lived in a different city after transferring to another city from home town.... a time of freer exploration of interests, people, etc. But none of us had interest in trying drugs while teens, etc.

But my parents never phoned up school admissions office (my father really wanted each of us to excel academically), to lobby for us to enter tough university programs, never phoned any of our employers if we ever got yelled at /fired. Nor did my parents ever phone an employer on our behalf, if we were sick, to call in sick for a job.

I'm describing my teens years which were strict and abit overprotective.....but then I'm from a generation, that was never driven to school. We walked to and from school (primary school, high school...) or took transit.

[Crankin]

Please don't get me started on this topic. I probably would be put in jail for the way I raised my kids, and it was not that long ago.

[PamNY]

My first job was hiring people for entry-level jobs at the telephone company. This was from 1972-1975 or so.

There were occasionally parents in the employment office waiting room (though they did not take part in the interview). And I got several phone calls from parents who were angry when their children did not get a job. Parental involvement may be greater now, but I wouldn't say it's an altogether new phenomenon.

[smilingcat]

WOW!!! The other extreme end...

[Crankin]

I think my trouble started when we moved to our last home. My kids were in 6th and 8th grade. A cup-de-sac street, in a neighborhood of 3 streets, about 25 homes. It didn't take me long to call my neighbors the Stepford Wives. We lived 2 houses from the T intersection of the cross street where the bus picked the kids up for school. Out they went, everyday, rain or shine. A long line of cars would be parked, with kids waiting, no matter what the weather. When it rained or snowed, my kids would be invited into cars, which they always refused. My younger son rode his bike to school (6 miles) in the spring of 7th and 8th grade. Before that, let's see. I let my older son ride his bike around the block, on the sidewalk, when he was 4, unaccompanied. He walked home from kindergarten (we lived one block behind the school). That was in AZ. My kids played in the woods behind our house when we first moved to MA, and one day, they got lost. They had walkie talkies and I could hear them on the base unit. For some reason the older one left the younger one, and the younger, was probably 6... he found his way out, by me talking him through and looking at landmarks. That did scare me, but I was proud. The next year, DH was supposed to pick him up after school, when he stayed for an activity. My son knew that DH might forget, so before he left for school, he unlocked the back door. When DH didn't show up, he took the late bus home, got in the house, and then followed the protocol we had established. This was before cell phones, so when he called my school, I was already at the school holiday party, quite far away. Then he called my friend, who came over and took him until DH got home. Needless to say, this is the one who became a Marine. They took the train into Boston/Cambridge, alone starting at age 14 or 15, after me showing them how. This really freaked out the other parents. Both started babysitting at age 10-11, after taking the Red Cross class, and they were in demand! We let them stay home alone, for the weekend, when the older one had his license, and we went to NYC, to celebrate our 20th anniversary. Of course, we had our neighbors on alert for any cars parked in front of the house, etc. They were not partiers, anyway.
My kids knew how to cook, clean, handle money and take care of kids by the time they were 18. They had menial jobs in HS, when none of their friends worked. They did their college apps on their own, with our guidance. The fact that they are 33 and 30 and still call for advice, makes me think we did the right thing.

[shootingstar]

My partner lived right in downtown Toronto,while his ex lived ..mid-town only 7 km. away. During shared child custody arrangements for several years, his children came over to his place separately from school starting when they were 13 and 11. They took the subway and streetcar themselves.

My partner gave up having a car after the divorce. The children could not be schlepped around by him. He would accompany them on local transit when it was needed.

I was living in my own home out in the suburbs...

The children are now 34 and 36. One did her MA in English Lit. and now teaches foreign students, TOEL and other...is married with 3 boys. He runs his own butcher and sandwich shop. Of course, he seeks accounting and business advice from dearie.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In hindsight for myself, when I was a child I didn't want to run away from home, even though I found the strictness annoying and at times, stultifying: I knew if I ran away even back then in my head, I knew I would have to find food and place to live. Being poor can make a child desperate to run away OR child appreciates very quickly what it means to have food on the table daily, to be in a warm house and protected by parents (if the parent is not abusive).

I only wanted to leave when I was bound for university.

[PamNY]

I can't imagine this. I've been the interviewer, and I wouldn't want an employee who couldn't handle an interview on their own. Maturity in an employee is rather important...

At the time, I would have thought someone was with the applicant because of transportation issues, if I'd thought about it at all. A lot of our applicants were low-income, and public transportation left much to be desired. Many of these people, particularly the women who were entering the work force for the first time, would not have had the sophistication to anticipate that they would be judged for showing up with a friend or relative.

With the parents who called to complain that a child wasn't hired -- I think the parents were the problem. This was before the "helicopter" stereotype existed. I would say the parents were angry, overbearing and arrogant. No way to know how that would affect the offspring.

The situations I am describing happened 40 years ago. It is interesting that the current point of view seems to be that the child should be held responsible for the parents' behavior.

[shootingstar]

This is slightly off-topic but still on children....

For another job I was interviewing candidates. One applicant brought along her 4 yr. daughter. And we were working at a major construction site out in the suburbs. It was distracting since the daughter was right there in same rm., while myself and HR manager tried to conduct the interview. Little girl walked up to me innocently and looked at me.

We didn't hire the woman. I found the applicant a little incoherent which we really needed a fast learner and ability to communicate well at all levels of the organization. It's VERY hard not to wonder what the applicant would do if she couldn't keep work priorities straight vs. child care matters. Lest I am viewed as unsympathetic, well the HR manager was a divorced mother of 2 (adult) children.

[lph]

To be honest, I find this thread a little sad. Yes, I know there are weird over-protective parents out there, and no, I don't feel in the slightest that I am one of them. But it seems we are so quick to judge other people's parenting. I believe all parents do the best they can. I also believe that kids in general turn out fine. There are about a zillion ways of raising a kid right, and a few ways of doing it really wrong. Because I was raised a certain way and turned out fine, and because I raise my kid a certain way and he seems to be turning out fine... doesn't really mean much, other than that we're reasonably in sync with what people around us expect.

I certainly wish that parents wouldn't drive their kids everywhere, but that's partly the fault of the media telling them that the world is a dangerous place, full of kidnappers. Meddling and overprotective parents may at the same time be very loving, attentive parents, which I think is a lot more important in the long run. There are kids out there who wish with all their heart that their parents were a little more attentive.

[Crankin]

Yes, that is true, lph, but, at least in certain areas of the US, this is a huge problem. It particularly affects universities. There has been about a 40% increase in mental health problems in college students, and it can be traced to the rise in this type of parenting. I've read a lot about this in professional literature, not just in the popular press. When you've been raised in such a protective manner and everything has been done for you, it is hard to deal with even the normal stressors of life. Many of these kids fall apart and end up at the university counseling service. Then, mom and dad get angry, because, when they over 18, they have no say in their care, even if they are paying the bills.
I will give you an example from my practice. One of the nicest kids I work with has pretty bad anxiety. She's made a lot of progress. I really like her mom and her dad seems fine, but I've only met him once. But, after a year and a half, I've found out that her other 3 older sibs all have significant issues, that make my client look kind of like a regular kid. The family has done the right thing as far as getting help for the kids, but at a certain level, they have let these adult children (19-24) rule the roost. I am working with the mom to help her set boundaries with them, got 2 of the other kids into counseling with other clinicians, but the one who is disrupting the family the most seems to get whatever she wants. I would not be spending 50K a year to send her to school, after she "didn't like" the first school she went to. Mom does everything for these kids, nothing for herself. This seems to be such a common pattern. Makes me feel that I was the most selfish mom in the world, but really, my own mom was very similar.

[shootingstar]

I'm sorry to hear of this type of situation, Crankin.

The world has always been full of predators, abusers but the Internet has now added a whole other additional dimension that (caring) parent(s) worry about --meaning one more way for strangers to access their children without their knowledge. This is so very different than all the other eras/times in history. So if it isn't (over)worrying about a teen going to school on their own, there's another potential outlet ..

But it seems no matter what the "threats" are, ongoing communication is important and ability for parent to listen without rushing in with their "solution". As we all know, since we were all teens back then, putting it to practice is another thing.

Lph, I think my partner's daughter deals with a number of such children...these parents pay this private organization for additional tutoring in English which is great. In some cases, she has noticed the kid isn't doing bad at all and doesn't know why the kid needs to be enrolled. Other cases it's more improvement in social skills/communication in general. She suspects that some parents are overzealous in their child to achieve and in some cases, the parents live overseas..outside of North America (Asia). So having the kid go to school in addition to regular school, is a safe way for the kid's time to be occupied which personally I don't quite agree if the child doesn't really need it.

[Aromig]

I struggle with this daily. I don't want to be a helicopter parent, but I also don't want my kids suffering because I'm not that kind of a parent. I tend to let my kids be more independent, whereas my husband gets a little more wrapped up in everything they do (I'm hoping that we balance each other).

I have two boys, ages 14 (just starting high school) and 12 (just starting middle school). Both very bright (what parent doesn't say that? LOL), but different levels of laziness. The 14 year old is very independent, does nearly everything on his own, but often does the bare minimum to get by. He does great when he applies himself, but doesn't always apply himself. The 12 year old applies himself, but always asks for more help and if we would do it, he'd let us do his work and we're always struggling with helping if he asks for it but making him do the work on his own.

I believe kids should do their own school projects, that's how they learn. We help if they ask, but make sure they're doing the work. However, they're graded against their peers and it's clear that often parents are doing the projects (there is just no way that some of these projects are done by kids). You want your kids to be competitive - but you also want them to do the learning. It's hard to draw the line.

I have friends with slightly older kids, and when I ask about how much they help, they claim "they're helping edit." When asked to edit my kids' stuff, I make suggestions, point out where they've failed to explain something (but they have to fix it), etc. But once when looking at my friend's edits (I specifically asked because I'm struggling with how much to do or not to do)- he clearly rewrote the whole thing and the paper looked nothing like the kid's original product. Did that kid learn something? Probably - I think you improve anytime you see how someone changed your work. Is the kid now capable of producing similar work - probably not. Is it fair that the kid gets a grade for a paper that the parent (whose job is to write professionally) essentially wrote?

When I talk to the parents of my kids' friends -- I hear them talking about their older kids and "so and so is rushing this sorority, and our family is so stressed about it" etc. they had to drop everything to drive 4 hours to take some new clothes to her. I mean, really? The kid is in college, when is she going to do it on her own? I don't understand why something happening to the kid is a stress on the whole family hours away?

My kids also participate in sports and I'm so very sick of hearing "WE are practicing twice a day," "WE had an awesome game," or "WE won." I'm not doing anything but sitting in the stands. There's no "we" involved except I've provided transportation. I'm proud of my kid, but I don't think I'm a terrible parent that I'm not entirely wrapped up in their every waking moment. I watch most of their games, but it's not the end of the world if I miss one. There are other parents who call you out on "I see you weren't at such and such a game...did you have an emergency? Your son played well anyway" (as if parental presence if the only reason kids will do well). You'll also hear other parents gossiping ("so and so's Mom hasn't made a SINGLE game...poor so and so." I've had to walk away from gossip before, although I'll admit that I just left, I didn't shut it down like I should have.)

Either way, the judgment feels very real (and I'm judging too, in this post I've "judged" the parents I consider over-involved). I presume we're so "judgy" because parenting is so important and it is so personal, but I really don't remember my mom or dad caring what others thought as much as people in my generation seems to care.

Sorry for the long and rambling post, but this post hit a nerve about something I seriously struggle with every day. I mainly just hope that kids are resilient enough that even if I'm doing it wrong they'll be OK (although Crankin's posts worry me a lot).

[Crankin]

Why do my posts worry you? I was the mom who didn't attend games, unless I wanted to. When I went, I often was grading papers (because that's what teachers do on the weekends or after school). My younger son called me out on that, but when I told him that it was either work at the game, or not go, he was fine. I only went to bike races for DS #2 when I became a cyclist. I didn't go to the games because I couldn't stand the parents. All they did was talk about their kids' teachers and I do remember my principal at Shrewsbury Middle School saying "the soccer field is the most deadly place in the world," because of parental gossip. Teach your kids to be resilient and they will be fine. Those other parents are getting their own personal self-worth from their kids, so no wonder they say "we." That is so unhealthy.
If my kids had ended up as criminals or were otherwise unfit, I wouldn't comment. They were not perfect, but as I often say, maybe we set the bar low, but nobody ended up in jail. No one used drugs or got caught drinking in the woods, set the HS auditorium on fire, or tried to set their home on fire while their parents were inside. Yes, all of those things happened at ABRHS while my kids went there. Just be true to yourself.

[Aromig]

The posts about your kids didn't worry me, but the post about 40% increase in mental health issues for kids in college was troubling. I guess my point was that I've always presumed you had to be a REALLY bad parent one way or another for kids to not overcome "issues" since I think kids are generally resilient but it does sound like a lot of people are messing it up lately. I agree with you -- I think parents often do too much and then their kids haven't learned coping skills and are ineffective adults.

I think our parenting styles are very similar. I think the best thing I can do for my kids is to set an example. I'm independent, I have my own life (that doesn't just revolve around the kids) and I make my own happiness. I'd love for them to do the same. Your kids seemed to turn out OK (and you appear to have a good relationship with them), I hope it works that way for mine too. I'll have to resist the urge to give in to the "well, if my kids want to be competitive, I'll have to do their stuff for them like the other parents do."

It's also nice to know that I'm not the only one who can't stand the gossiping parents at games....

[OakLeaf]

There has been about a 40% increase in mental health problems in college students,

Have they really ruled out better screening as a cause? When I was in school and desperately needed mental help, Campus Counseling existed, but they were completely unequipped for and/or uninterested in dealing with anything more severe than "my boyfriend dumped me" or "classes are harder than I thought they would be."

[PamNY]

Have they really ruled out better screening as a cause? When I was in school and desperately needed mental help, Campus Counseling existed, but they were completely unequipped for and/or uninterested in dealing with anything more severe than "my boyfriend dumped me" or "classes are harder than I thought they would be."

I wondered the same thing. I was a 17-year-old college freshman when my upset roommate asked me to get her a glass of water. I had no idea she was going to swallow a handful of pills. I called the cops, she got her stomach pumped and all was well.

But there was no care or counseling for her or me. She got kicked out of school, and I got to talk to adults who told me they couldn't get involved. I had enough sense to seek out psych services, where a single session cost my weekly food budget. I would question the value of any statistics gathered during that period of time (1968).

[Crankin]

Better screening is part of it, and a lot of it is students coming to universities already "diagnosed" with various mental health conditions and needing to continue their treatment. But, one particular article I read (and no, I can't remember the source) also noted an increase in students who experienced one or two of what I call normal bad things and then fall apart in some kind of depressive episode or extreme state of anxiety. These would be like the events you mentioned, such as a bad grade, a break up with a boy/girlfriend, a roommate problem. If you've never had to develop emotional coping skills because mom/dad took care of everything, these events are quite devastating. Some parents try to intervene with deans or members of the counseling department, even though their kids have not signed a release and they are over 18.
College counseling centers have changed quite a bit since we were in school. I interviewed at 3 universities for my second clinical internship; these are considered plum positions, but I was quite glad I didn't take the one that was offered to me, at MA College of Pharmacy and Allied Health. Just listening to the director describe the stress these kids are under made me cringe. A peer in my clinical supervision class did take that position, and the issues she dealt with were much more severe than what I had in a community mental health clinic, in a community with a lot of poverty. And then she had the school attorneys on her back about things like not letting her complete her transcription of 2 sessions for our class, until she relented to doing it on campus, which was a huge burden. I guess what I am trying to say is that they are dealing with some pretty complicated things now, and when they can't, they refer out and try to work with providers, to keep the kid in school.

[PamNY]

Here's an article from the Washington Post that presents a different take on the issue:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/09/09/why-those-annoying-helicopter-parents-arent-so-bad-after-all/

[Crankin]

Not about college kids, but this morning I saw something that reminded of this thread. I was heading out to work, still in my neighborhood, but on a different street, when I saw a father and his daughter walking to the bus stop. First I thought, why is that dad walking a high schooler to the bus? Then, I realized that it was time for the elementary school bus, as it was 8:30. Since i was driving very slowly, about 20 mph, I looked again and noticed that the girl looked tall and very heavy for her age. She was lagging slightly behind the dad, who was carrying her backpack.. Now, these 2 were walking from a neighborhood of patio homes that abut my neighborhood, with very flat streets. The bus stop is in front of a house where several other kids wait. Before anyone accuses me of "size-ism," I have to say my first thought was, the dad is carrying her backpack? Of course, I don't know their story, but it just looked so wrong to me, on so many levels. Here, honey, I'll carry that for you, so you don't need to sweat.
I know this is judgmental, but it seems like it's a symptom of what is very wrong with our world.
Can you tell I feel really strongly about this?

[lph]

Can you tell I feel really strongly about this?

I can tell! I see this as a random observation. Maybe the kid has a back problem and cannot carry a backpack. Maybe she'd pulled her back out tripping over her shoelaces that morning. Maybe she has been even more overweight, or sick from something completely unrelated, and is only just at the point where she can walk at all. Maybe they were in a hurry that day, but instead of driving, dad still insisted they walk, but he would carry her backpack to make it just a little easier. I don't know. I would probably would have noted the situation too, but bear in mind that if they had taken the easiest way out, by driving a car, you would never have seen them at all. By walking they made themselves visible - and open to random judgement by strangers.

Now if you had known this family well, or seen this as a general trend among overweight kids everywhere, it would be different.

btw thanks for the link, PamNY. It resonated more with my experience.

[OakLeaf]

Ha, yeah. The first thing that crossed my mind is the incessant news stories about how backpacks harm children's musculoskeletal development. There's a story about that in the news about every other month, especially this time of year. Then there's the possibility of plain old sexism, unrelated to age - before I got hurt, it was a constant bone of contention between me and DH about him wanting to take things I was already carrying - then I got hurt and just had to deal with it.

Pam, that article made sense to me, too. Though it's hard to comment without looking at the data (which I haven't), and one big flaw that I saw in that article is that, I don't think the stereotypical coddled kids would self-identify that way. But yeah, as a product of the "old" kind of controlling/ownership parenting, with all the same emotional struggles associated with the supposedly-coddled modern kids, it makes sense to me. It's the parent seeing the child as nothing but an extension of their ego that causes the problems, and not the particular means they use to enforce that.

Another thing that occurred to me - my mom has taught at an expensive prep school for over 40 years, while my sister has been a college professor for 25 years. My mom has always complained about *some* parents who raise h#!! when their child is struggling, but hasn't seen any increase in that behavior. My sister, on the other hand, *has* seen an increased sense of entitlement among her students (not so much their parents). Her sense of it is that we baby boomers grew up in a golden age of accessibility of higher education. Now that college in the USA is once again mostly a perk of the wealthy, the concentration of people who feel entitled, who feel that any time they're paying someone for a service, that makes them their servant - can only have increased.

[Crankin]

I think your sister's perspective is interesting, Oak.
Despite the fact that my son is a 30 year old married veteran, he is a junior in college. I get the on-line parent newsletter, more as just a way to connect to the kind of stuff that is going there. He goes to a small, liberal arts college that we never would have paid for! Anyway, given that perspective, the first thing I saw this morning was the newsletter. Top column, headline was, "What Does the Campus Health Service Do?" The first sentence said something like, "Where should your student go when he has the flu, is struggling with depression, or needs help with ADHD?" I found it very interesting that 2/3 of the things in that first sentence were depression and ADHD. I am quite sure that would not have been mentioned at any of the schools I went to.
DS verifies your last sentence, Oak, though he feels it is a function of the high price tag and selectivity of the school. He did not ever say anything like this about Cal State Long Beach, or even U of A. One part of me is proud that this school recognized his service to his country and his intelligence, but...
I know my reaction to the dad carrying the backpack lacks all of the background, but in the 12-14 years since my kids graduated high school, it feels like parents have just gone nuts overprotecting their kids.

[shootingstar]

Maybe old-fashioned, control-based parenting was never discarded after all; some parents just switched to a slightly different, more intrusive version. The ideal alternative, according to a growing body of research that I’ve written about elsewhere, isn’t less parenting but better parenting. It’s not standing back and letting kids struggle, then kicking them out of the nest and demanding they make it on their own whenever we (or pop-culture scolds) say so. It’s being responsive to what the child needs. That may be the right to make decisions. It may also be a continued close connection to Mom and Dad Excerpt from WPost link that Pam gave.

I would say being appropriately responsive to what the child needs....but the right to make decisions (and certainly true for adult children).

I do like the idea of fostering independence in adult children, but more importantly they understand interdependence.... that it's not just the child depending on parent, but it is the parent receives appropriate assistance. This is all grey of course... but I'm bothered that my partner's 36 yr. old daughter doesn't voluntarily offer to do stuff for her father..unless she is asked. She's only offered once to bring food for special family gatherings.. I find this type of thing kind of narrow.

My partner is not a helicopter parent. He just doesn't ask/ think it's important to ask. My feeling there is a point in one's life to ask your adult children to start asking in small ways that doesn't require much time /energy. Don't assume the adult child will automatically /voluntarily help if it's been 1 way all along from the parent.

[Crankin]

It took my older son a little longer to realize he should pay for half of our restaurant meals, than the younger one. We gave little hints. It's been a few years since he started doing this, and now, of course, DH will often say he is treating. It's just the idea of it. Sometimes, on holidays, I have to ask them to bring something, but I also do that with my friends who are coming. DIL many times has spent Amex gift cards from her employer on meals or presents for us. I don't know my other DIL as well, since they live in CA, but she follows my son's lead. She has always been gracious and helpful when they have stayed here, and I appreciate it. I hated my mother in law, but then DH had horrible, abusive parents, who subscribed to the "do as I say, not as I do" theory. I swore not to be like that, and just keep my mouth shut. I always say the proof that my kids are OK is in the way they treat their wives. Never wanted any woman to say, "What the hell did your mother do???"
And yes, better parenting is the key. It's just that many people have no good role model for that.

[PamNY]

Why would one not be straightforward about handling restaurant checks or bringing food to a gathering?

After I graduated from college, my parents said they wanted to cover restaurant meals when I visited because I had the expense and effort of airfare and a rental car. They sometimes did the "dropping hints" thing which makes my head explode -- luckily for all I raised the issue directly and it was never uncomfortable. My directness didn't always go well, and I wasn't always smart about it, but in this case it seemed to work out.

Same for bringing food or beverages to a gathering. If you want people to bring something, say so! Everyone is different. Personally, I find it annoying if people bring something that requires special handling, or doesn't go with the rest of the meal. I also don't want people barging around in my kitchen unless I invite them to do so. My mother was the same.

The issue of helping parents becomes more complicated with aging and illness, of course.

[shootingstar]

When we do potluck, it's as vague as salad or pasta. Then it's up to the family member to make it and bring it. So most of the time no one knows what to expect. And no one cares. We do know certain food allergies..of some people that are life threatening, so we avoid dishes with such stuff.

Potluck never is coordinated in my family. Some Asian dishes, some sausage, cheese, Italian pasta, salad, etc. Whatever...it is genuinely mixed-up, cross-cultural at nearly every family gathering. I know for some families, it's sometimes. For us,...it's all the time. Some of us live this way-- daily. If we started specifying flavours, it would go over like a lead balloon and less people would contribute.

Actually my partner is a little more attentive in coordination of flavours in 1 meal, than I.

[lph]

Why would one not be straightforward about handling restaurant checks or bringing food to a gathering?.

I agree, Pam, but that's me in all settings. I loathe unwritten rules, partly because I was raised unaware of a lot of them which got me into a lot of awkward situations. I have tried to be much more straightforward myself, and I think once we get to the point where my son should pay for his own meal he'll know that before he even accepts an invitation to go to a restaurant. Not least because we can afford restaurants he would not on a student income, so there shouldn't be any ambiguity about who is paying.

As for doing things for parents - on the one hand my own mother is intensely independent, lives alone, travels a lot, works freelance. She will never ever ask for anything. On the other hand she's not too physically strong, and obviously needs help doing some stuff, like keeping the trees on her large lot from going completely wild. We offer to help, in general terms, but she will never ask. This just seems stupid to me. Nobody expects a woman in her 70s to be a lumberjack anyway. True independence includes knowing when to ask for help, and letting people help.

The only time I think one "should" offer to help without being asked is if someone is obviously working hard right in front of you, for instance cooking, and you have nothing to do yourself.

[Crankin]

I guess I used the wrong words, Pam. We are direct, but tried to be humorous about it, so hence the "hints." Funny, though, that even though DS whips out his credit card every time now, DH often pays. We go out with them at least once a month, sometimes twice. They aren't traveling far.
I rarely do pot luck anymore, and when someone comes for dinner, like a casual dinner, I prefer to do it all myself. On holidays, I ask people to bring an appetizer, salad, or dessert. Once I realized DIL is a really good cook, I started asking her, too. My friend we do holidays with is an obsessive planner and we are often planning the menu for Thanksgiving in early October. I am not like that, but I deal with it.
My parents lived in a different state; my brother was there and did all of the help. My dad lived with him at the end. We contributed financially a bit, but I fully get what my brother did. I am not sure I have that in me. I never want to be dependent on my kids for anything.

[Crankin]

Back to the helicopter parents...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201509/declining-student-resilience-serious-problem-colleges

[smilingcat]

I am very thankful for my parents to let me fail over and over again. My father was quite blunt about it. "What is the point of crying. Pick up yourself and keep going." School of hard knocks. But he did intervene, if he thought it was danger to my well being. Playing with chemistry set can get dangerous. :-)

Kids need to learn that its okay to fail. Many a times, going over the line/edge is what it takes to learn.

[Jolt]

Ugh…this stuff all scares me when I think about potentially having kids!! I would like to let my kids do things like play outside and walk/bike to school (provided we live where this is feasible) and not have scheduled activities every minute of every day, but it seems like society is doing its best to prevent such things. When there are cases where the cops get called on someone for letting their kids play IN THEIR OWN YARD without the parent right there (and I would bet that the parent is keeping an eye out through the window while getting other things done), something is seriously wrong. It also seems like some parents get so wrapped up in their kids that they forget about who they are and their other interests, which doesn't seem healthy for either the parents or the kids. How do we fix this?

[Aromig]

Sigh. I've recently taught as an adjunct at a local university in a paralegal program. The class I taught was in the final year, so they've been in the program for a while and are ready to go into the job market. The assignments were very watered down, hypothetical assignments that I'd give paralegals in our office. A few students really excelled and thanked me after the class for the real-life world experience. About half of the class complained that the work was too hard, I didn't give them the answers, etc. I had one student to whom I gave a B (I really wanted to give him a C, but I was concerned that maybe it was too harsh) tell me he wasn't a B student and I needed to change the grade to an A. When I pointed out everything he missed and that it looked like he spent maybe 10 minutes on the project he admitted that was all true, but said that he is still an A student so he needed the grade adjusted. It all made very me sad because those people will not be prepared for a real job in their chosen profession. Fifteen years ago I was a graduate assistant who worked with students, etc. in a similar program and I can tell a definite difference between the "entitlement" of the students from then to now.