Maybe am still conversative?

[shootingstar]

well, the same old thing about appropriate wear in high schools by students.
http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/they-were-sexualizing-my-outfit-toronto-students-wear-midriff-baring-crop-tops-to-school-to-protest-cover-up-order

I appreciate the teen's comments. Yes, women (and growing girls) should feel free to dress neatly in clothing without worrying about being misinterpreted by men, boys, etc. At the same time, there is a reality after school, where there are somewhat tighter boundaries on what to wear on the job, depending on organization's culture, etc. Especially when coworkers and clients barely or don't know your work capabilities/skills.

I'm probably quite conservative in general on boundaries on what women in management ranks /in professional jobs, or any job on how they should present themselves in certain work situations.

[Crankin]

I am sort of the same way, but it really depends on what field you work in. No one would accuse me of dressing super conservatively, but I do have to be aware of being "triggering," to male clients. My husband works at a software company and shorts, flip flops, etc are the uniform for the developers. DH wears nicer casual wear, including stylish jeans, etc., as he feels that he needs to be a bit above the computer geeks in terms of how he presents himself. He never, ever wears a sport coat or suit, unless it's a rare occasion he is out at a trade show or client.
In the past, I have had to discuss the fact that deep cleavage and butt cracks showing when you bend over to help a student are not OK in the classroom, especially with impressionable middle school students. Both of these conversations were with younger people, who were my assistants quite awhile ago.

[rebeccaC]

Seems to me Alexi was being creatively intelligent in both her presentation prep and dealing with the administrations reaction…….it is an ART school….and among the best in Canada. From my school days to even in looking for a job, an unwavering dress code (well except safety etc) would be a control negative just on principal for me.....and i've always been somewhat conservative in how i dress.....well mostly

At my workplace and in my team we are more concerned about what’s in a persons work than what is on their body. That said if someone or a group is telling a person something they’re wearing is inappropriate then hopefully it IS a positive learning experience for all involved.

Alexi seems interesting and i like the outfit in the photo :)

[shootingstar]

Me, the lover of arts and lifelong dabbler in arts, only stretched the boundaries by wearing sandals over barefeet, in Nov. below freezing temperatures with a lovely black long wool winter coat. I was getting "old" in my ways at 21 yrs.

Her outfit might be on edge at our recreational centres as a student helper(?). Wouldn't go over working well in a municipal headquarters office. Our organization hires several hundred summer students annually.

Seriously, our organizations has different workplace cultures --some depts. are construction heavy working boots oriented outdoor work crews. Some depts. are predominantly male.
Sure I've worked in stricter dress areas. But it was a job experience that was atypical and worth minor expectation to be in business wear, not even long shorts....when working for the court judges. A peek into a world that not lots of people see daily. (And there were some artsy judges. The highest ranking judge did oil painting as a hobby outside, and filled his office with his creations...just wonderful.) Another judge, responsible for human rights legislation in Ontario, had her office artfully painted in bright colours with some of art collectibles.

The law clerks who worked for the judges, *****ed on the side on requirement to wear suits during hot summers. But they knew their career /resume will look good with a work term for judges.

I've made my business wear concessions for various employers, which were (to me) minor, in light of some incredible job experiences that I gained. Working at a construction site in the trailer office, in casual wear, is not always cool either...a layer of dust blowing inside and mud about the place. Even in the women's washroom.

I dunno. I am old.... everyone has their definition of edginess. Should I wear a sarong (huge wrap scarf) as a skirt on the job at my age?

[ny biker]

If one of her male classmates showed up with no shirt because he thought he looked good that way, what would happen? Would they tell him to put a shirt on? I suspect they would.

[salsabike]

Seems to me Alexi was being creatively intelligent in both her presentation prep and dealing with the administrations reaction…….it is an ART school….and among the best in Canada. From my school days to even in looking for a job, an unwavering dress code (well except safety etc) would be a control negative just on principal for me.....and i've always been somewhat conservative in how i dress.....well mostly

At my workplace and in my team we are more concerned about what’s in a persons work than what is on their body. That said if someone or a group is telling a person something they’re wearing is inappropriate then hopefully it IS a positive learning experience for all involved.

Alexi seems interesting and i like the outfit in the photo :)

:) I am more prone to this point of view. I'm trying to remember if we wore halter tops in HS--I know darn well we wore them on the weekends. High school is a whole different animal, and Alexi might well have the judgment to change her clothing to match work and other settings. And I expect her choices will change over time just like the rest of us.

The last elementary school I worked in had a uniform policy. It's not a very rigid one--there's a range of colors and choices, but one thing it did very effectively was take the whole "inappropriate dress for a 10 year old" and "I am rich and you are poor, and our clothing shows this" stuff right off the table. I think it was a great relief to a lot of the kids there.

[lph]

To be honest I can't see what appropriate dress in a workplace has to do with appropriate dress at high school at all. I wore completely different things as a teenager to school than I do to work as an adult in an office job. Some workplaces have very strict dress codes, some don't. At a workplace you deal with people of all ages and backgrounds, and what is appropriate is partly defined by what is acceptable to all.

That's not to say that there isn't an idea of "appropriate" also in high school, I just believe it's probably a lot laxer, and closer to what teens wear at home. Personally I think she looks lovely, and very inoffensive, based on MY cultural background.

[Crankin]

When I was in high school, it was a big deal that girls were finally allowed to wear pants/jeans to school! And this was at the height of the 60s.
Then I moved to Florida. The girls were wearing Villager dresses and carrying little Etienne Ainger purses. My parents brought me for my first day at Miami Palmetto HS wearing bell bottoms, a black t shirt, and very long silver dangly earrings. They were promptly told to "bring me home and change me," punctuated by the word ma'm. I thought my mom would explode.
A couple of weeks ago, one of my 16 year old female clients came to see me at 6 PM. I seriously asked her if she had worn her outfit to school. Short shorts (not really so bad) and a white, lacy, see through top, with a black bra underneath. She looked at me like, "Why not?" I am sorry, it just looked really trashy, and in any school I worked at, it would not have been OK. We laughed, as I have a really good relationship with this kid, but it was clear she didn't see why I was asking.

[shootingstar]

Sure, I agree that at high school it's a lot laxer in clothing styles.
Just when a kid who looks old enough to work for a summer job, they need to be coached later....how to dress for the work world soon, job interviews, business meetings, etc. I should have clarified.

[Helene2013]

I'm not sure what to think of this picture. But one thing for sure, I would never have gone out dressed like in this top. I was a bit too converservative and did not seem to need to "show off" my body. Maybe there is the issue of how you were raised, your friends' circle, how confident you are or not. If I had worn something like this, I would have had a little vest/unbottoned shirt over it and it would have made a big difference.

I was always told, even in high school - towards the end - to dress as you wanted to be seen. I guess her view and mine would differ a lot.

I know some schools, just like workplace, have a a dress code. If it's clear, there is not much as a student/employee you can do against. I know at work here we are pretty strict but sometimes, we let slip one. hihi And I'm in HR.

[OakLeaf]

I guess, to me, if they're dressing in the same style as everyone else their age, then they're adept at conforming to fashion. While they may need a guidance counselor's nudge to begin with, they won't have a hard time figuring out what to wear in a business setting where more formal clothes are expected. Remember it's just fashion.

It's a bit personal, just because my parents dressed me and my sisters like we were in some kind of weird TV cult, and we had to figure out how to dress ourselves when we were in our 20s (middle sister never did figure it out - she's a college professor with an emphasis on fieldwork, so she can get away with it at work). I'm just barely, I choose very conservative clothes just because I never learned how to accessorize, match or flair. I think if a kid has the social networks they need growing up, then basic conformity to fashion won't be hard for them - whether it's pushing the edges in high school, or rocking a suit at the office. If they don't have that social support, then punishing them for what they wear isn't going to help.

Plus, I think there's a world of difference between "X amount of cover is required in a setting with Y level of formality," vs "girls have to cover because boys can't help raping them if they don't."

[rebeccaC]

Yes the winning answer is uniform!!! :)

...and yes shootingstar, if you want to...you should wear a sarong as a skirt on the job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm trying to remember if we wore halter tops in HS--I know darn well we wore them on the weekends.

a halter with skinny satin cord ties or maybe a cowboy shirt both worked with my Juicy jeans….that could have been my high school uniform for a while. now a short goth corset skirt, maybe fishnets….a cheap vintage crushed black velvet jacket, i could have thought that through as a uniform when i was a teen :)

I did a photo essay on an American Apparel billboard campaign in the L.A. area that can and has easily been interpreted as making it easier for people to believe that teen aged looking girls want to be involved in adult sexual relationships. I’m sure I’m more aware of it today but it seems a teen dealing with sexualizing is so much more prevalent than it was just over a decade ago for me.

building positive self-identities ftw

[OakLeaf]

I’m sure I’m more aware of it today but it seems a teen dealing with sexualizing is so much more prevalent than it was just over a decade ago for me.

Forty-three years ago when I was in the eighth grade, the fad was "sizzler dresses." The length was right at the butt crease, and they came with a matching panty.

I don't think teenagers, new to their sexual identity and feeling like flaunting it, is anything new!

I know I graduated eighth grade in that dress, I'm not sure but I'm thinking I was confirmed in it as well, and yes I am appalled by that now, but it sure does make me less likely to judge "kids these days." ;)


building positive self-identities ftw +1 and I think that's really the line we're talking about. Building positive self-identities, *including* their sexual identity, but helping them remember that there's a lot more to life - as distracting as all those hormones can be!

[shootingstar]

I went to a public co-ed high school.
In my final year, a few girls transferred from an all-girl's Catholic school to our high school. The girls who chose to transfer and were accepted, were high achievers. Yes, of course it gave them the freedom to dress to their own liking at our school. I don't recall any of these girls wearing stuff that would be on par with crop tops, etc. while in school.

A bit off topic: What was obvious even to me, along with my current female classmates who were also high academic achievers, etc., was the level of self-confidence of these former all-girl migrants had in their verbal self-expression, etc. I do believe for girls, an all-girl school with uniform requirements, if the curriculum is challenging can help (some) girls develop good self-confidence without overly relying on validation from guys at school. But the hormones at that age, just can distract even the best. Well, you know what I mean.

I graduated from high school in 1978. During my first year in HS, girls were finally allowed to wear jeans. I remember kneeling in hallway along with other girls in my class, so that (female) teacher could check our hemlines were knee-length.

[ny biker]

Wow. My two siblings graduated from high school in 1978. I was four years behind them and it was one building for junior and senior high -- grades 7-12, ages 12-17 or 18. We wore jeans to school all the time.

[Crankin]

I am not horrified by anything I wore to high school, because after 2 months at Miami Palmetto HS, I told my parents I refused to go back for my junior year. I went to a very small private school, where I could not even wear pants to school, in 1969-1971. So while my friends in Newton, MA were demonstrating on the Boston Common and generally not doing anything to please teachers and parents (who were also smoking weed and demonstrating), I was thrown backwards about 10 years. I did wear midriff tops, sans bra on the weekends, and skirts as short as I could get away with at school. I do remember "hot pants," but I don't think I work those to school. Seriously, granny dresses were in style while I was in HS and the beginning of college, so no skimpy stuff there.
I started dressing quite a bit brazenly, in the 80s, when I was teaching aerobics. But, I wore suits to work, and I think it was almost like I had 2 personas: the professional looking teacher and the slightly trashy looking gym instructor. Seriously, I was quite proud of my body, so I put it out there. I was only in my early to mid thirties, so it wasn't so inappropriate.

[rocknrollgirl]

I teach in a public high school and what I have to say on this subject would probably crash the system. Suffice to say I am in favor of a dress code that is appropriate and enforced. I am tired of looking at their butt cheeks all day. I love fashion, and I express my style through fashion. I fully support young women expressing their style through fashion......that is appropriate for school, which is their place of business right now.

The young lady in the original article looks adorable. To go out. Not for school. that being said, I see 10x worse every single day. Butt cheeks, full cleavage and now that the weather is warm, lots of backless dress sans bra, so add some side views in. Not appropriate.

This is how you get from point A, the young lady in the photo which most of you said was not so bad, to point B, what I am describing. There has to be a standard, some limit, some line which is not crossed, or many, many young ladies, in my school at least, will and do cross the line into scantily clad, every day.

Sorry to rant, but I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired of looking at it.

[lph]

I teach in a public high school and what I have to say on this subject would probably crash the system. Suffice to say I am in favor of a dress code that is appropriate and enforced. I am tired of looking at their butt cheeks all day. I love fashion, and I express my style through fashion. I fully support young women expressing their style through fashion......that is appropriate for school, which is their place of business right now.

The young lady in the original article looks adorable. To go out. Not for school. that being said, I see 10x worse every single day. Butt cheeks, full cleavage and now that the weather is warm, lots of backless dress sans bra, so add some side views in. Not appropriate.

This is how you get from point A, the young lady in the photo which most of you said was not so bad, to point B, what I am describing. There has to be a standard, some limit, some line which is not crossed, or many, many young ladies, in my school at least, will and do cross the line into scantily clad, every day.

Sorry to rant, but I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO tired of looking at it.

Oh, but I agree. She looks fine to me, but I'm all in favour of a clear dress code that actually is enforced. What I'm not in favour of is unclear or vague dress codes, like this school apparently had, which opens up to all sorts of judgemental discussions where it's easy to shame someone for liking something you don't, or for not understanding something that you find self-evident. (Not, you as in you, rnrgirl :-)) "Clothing has to cover the midriff and upper thigh" is fine. "Clothing has to be appropriate and non-offensive" (or however it might be put) is not.

[Helene2013]

I showed the picture to 3 people at work and all 3 were clear that this is not a dresscode for school. To go out, fine... but not to school. And all 3 women have kids, some going to high school or college. They said that the skirt is fine but the top is too bra-looking, not enough covering and inappropriate for school and that the school was right in sending her home to change. This can be a huge debate and I can see why it went on the media.
I see it like one person's freedom ends where another's begins.

I wonder if the way we "read" how people should or not dress is not something "local" to their area.

[OakLeaf]

I see it like one person's freedom ends where another's begins.

See, THAT's the only attitude that's really controversial about these things. How in the world does what someone ELSE wears, infringe on MY freedom? And why is it only what girls and women wear, that infringe on boys' and men's freedom, and not the other way around? There's where the problem lies.

Do we even want to open the can of worms about how some people think some women are oppressed because they wear too MANY clothes?

I think the examples I gave from my own life illustrate the ONLY reason that's legitimate to talk about what to wear.

My wearing homemade cult-style dresses and non-matching clunky shoes to work in a law office, before I taught myself better, was every bit as inappropriate as my showing my barely panty-covered butt to the Bishop in church.

It's what fashion dictates is appropriate for the occasion and location. That changes with the times and it's different from place to place - as Americans traveling in Europe often find. Nothing to do with sex, not really; nothing to do with anyone's "freedom" except the person wearing the clothes. The tension between individualism and conformity will never end. But one hopes that men will someday stop using women's clothing as a way to control and shame women.

[Helene2013]

Oakleaf,

You are right. And is it only in today's world that we seem to complicate too many things so often or was it just more "hidden" in the good old days.

Why are we always criticizing what a girl/woman wears. How often do we see remarks on what guys are wearing at Galas, etc. How many times do we hear someone say "she should not dress that way as it creates double-messages, etc.".

What about those guys on billboard...do we say that because he's only in underwear that he's too little dressed vs women doing the same ad which would be provoking, or sexually related? Getting away from subject but the point is why are we like we are vs women?

Wondering if the student was a male and came in class with something else than "standard" code, would he have been returned home to change?

We did get something similar in Montreal a year ago (May 30th)
http://globalnews.ca/news/1364959/montreal-teen-protests-high-school-dress-code/

[rocknrollgirl]

Not for nothing, but our young men have a dress code also.

[salsabike]

Well said, Oak.

And there is no fashion situation on this earth that will ever make me think that seeing butt cheeks is okay. Blech.

[rocknrollgirl]

Wondering if the student was a male and came in class with something else than "standard" code, would he have been returned home to change?

The answer is yes, but it happens much less often. A handful of times in my career. The young ladies are every day.

[Helene2013]

Thank you Rocknrollgirl for your answer. It seems we rarely see guys having issues on that front.

[rocknrollgirl]

I thought about this all day yesterday. Every time I saw a student inappropriately dresses. I think some of you would be shocked if you saw in person what they are wearing to school. Or what they are not wearing.

[rebeccaC]

Oh, but I agree. She looks fine to me, but I'm all in favour of a clear dress code that actually is enforced. What I'm not in favour of is unclear or vague dress codes.

..and being strict on NOT using shame, blame or humiliation in the process of dealing with an infraction… and also for a productive learning environment for all students start by teaching them to respect each other’s bodies and to do that regardless of what their peers are wearing…..and have honest discussions about the hyper sexualization of American culture and it’s effect on girls and boys….and how problematic normalizing the notion that girls bodies are distractions can be to young girls…and how fetishizing the number of inches between the hem of a skirt and the top of a knee is perverse…teach them that women wearing shorts in public was illegal in a number of U.S. cities up until the 1950's...about when a women showing a ankle or god forbid a leg was seen as an advertisement for adultery...and how preparing students to become independent thinkers is what's important.

…but then if I was told my bare shoulders and back from wearing a halter top to school caused distractions to boys then I’d say those boys needed to be sent home until they’ve learned enough self control to come back. That kind of distraction messaging lands itself squarely on a continuum that can also blame girls and women for assault by men…it’ll be her fault for wearing tight pants, or a belly shirt, or short skirt, or for drinking too much, or walking alone etc etc…

hoping things improve for you rnrgirl....i'm sure there are some problems in some schools...my problem is with how it is handled and how young girls can be affected in a negative way by how it is handled. as i wrote earlier in this thread building positive self-identity by parents, school administrators writing dress codes and especially doing enforcement or through peers is a component i see as important. I have a cousin who went through this a couple of years ago in her high school. She and some of her friends caused some positive changes in the way the school addressed the problems. We had some good conversations about it at the time...and it was a good learning experience for her.

[Crankin]

That kind of education has to start young, early and often, and in the home... as the mother of 2 boys, I often felt it was my mission to make sure no woman ever said, "Didn't your mother teach you...?" However, after working with teens for a very long time, I can assure you that trying to talk to any adolescent in school about shaming, blaming, over sexualization, etc. probably won't make much of a difference, for several reasons. First, this is a societal issue. If these things are discussed in school, and then adolescent boys go home to hear their dad make comments about women's bodies, they are getting reinforced for their behavior in a way that means more than whatever a teacher says. Secondly, schools are, by nature, bastions of conservative behavior and change comes slowly. I don't necessarily think this good, but I have to agree with Rock n Roll on this one. If I had a daughter, I would never have allowed her to go to school wearing things showing butt crack or cleavage, the same way I did not let my sons wear their pants so low that their cracks were showing... the issue is when schools say that dressing in a certain way will distract the boys. It should only be an issue of knowing that there are different ways of dressing that are appropriate for specific situations and school is one of them.
However, I can see the teenage eyes glazing over and rolling with any type of this discussion. That's why it needs to start in the home and early. And the law is no help when trying to adhere to school dress codes. When I took school law, I remember reading about tons of these cases that one by one, would be over turned. One would be the standard, and then there would be a different decision.

[rocknrollgirl]

I helped write our dress code a while back. I do not think it says anything about being a distraction to anyone. Just that it is not appropriate dress for school, based on the idea that this is for now anyway, their place of business. Top must meet bottom, shoulders must be covered, no hats etc.

[Crankin]

OK, here's another question for everyone, in the same area. Rocknroll's school dress code says no hats. I totally agree (unless it's a religious head cover), but everywhere I go, men are wearing baseball caps. They don't take them off anywhere; in restaurants, and sometimes in places where wearing a casual type of cap is inappropriate in my book. Around here, there seems to be a certain type of 40-50 something male who never takes his hat off.
Again, if your dad wears a hat inside, all of the time, it's hard for a school to tell a kid you can't do that. My DH feels the same way, and besides, he'd never be caught wearing a baseball cap. My sons don't wear them, either.
And don't get me started on those "pink" Red Sox caps...

[shootingstar]

I think I just don't see enough men other than business wear/business casual (where I work) or outside of their cycling clothes, casual street clothes. No, the guys I know don't wear baseball caps regularily at all.

I probably live in a sheltered/narrow world. :)

Just a small amusing point: Dearie's son who will be 35, occasionally wears a wool toque, yea..in his butcher sandwich shop that he runs. Dearie believes his son is trying to hide his balding patch of hair at back of his head. Dearie is polite about it and doesn't egg him further.

[roo4]

Around here, men/boys/teens wear baseball caps all the time. The majority do not take them off when inside. My DH wears one, but always removes it when he enters a building.

[lph]

Yeah, I've stopped noticing. My own colleagues don't wear headgear indoors, but my climbing friends of all ages do.

[Helene2013]

In my work environment none wear ball caps. Out of work, some do but rarely.

I wear one only when mowing my grass to cut the sun from preventing me seeing the lines I'm mowing. hihi I hate wearing one anyway. Not good for hair and retains too much heat.

I cannot stand seeing someone with a cap on all the time! No matter what their reasons can be.

[lph]

Come to think of it, I do have a coworker who wears a hat/cap indoors. She's young and cute and has a sort of artistic fashion sense, and wears a small soft beret at times. Looks nice on her and I don't think anyone would find it offensive. And come to think of it, some of the younger computer support geeks wear caps indoors.
In general I think hats or caps are a bit different from covering up "boobs and butt", more like an inoffensive fashion choice.

[salsabike]

For me, hats are a total non-issue--they don't even get on my radar screen.

[Crankin]

I don't equate the hat issue with "covering boobs and butt," either. But this was a significant on-going issue at every school i worked at, no matter where it was, starting in about 1995.
And it is a personal pet peeve of mine. Does it matter in the total scheme of things? No, but it bugs me, seems just bad manners.
But hey, I wore white gloves to parties as a kid and I made my own kids write thank you notes and no jeans to religious school... you can call me old, or old fashioned, but despite my liberal attitude about most things in life, I think everyone just looked nicer and more put together back in the day (pre 1967 or so). I know a lot of people don't care and think it's silly, but generally, I do care about stuff like this.