Trek Silque vs Madone

[Crankin]

So, I mentioned in another thread that on my tour, I fell in love with the feel of the Madone I was riding. Despite the crappy components, I felt "at one" with a bike for the first time ever, in 15 years of riding.
Yesterday, DH did some research and I followed up. It appears that the Silque is just a "smoother" version of the Madone. I compared every piece of the geometry charts for the two, in a 47 cm bike and everything was exactly the same. Basically, the Silque is geared toward longer endurance rides, which is pretty much what I do.
Anyone here have a Silque? I am going to test ride both, eventually, one with better components than I had in Portugal.
Seriously, the Madone fit me better than my Guru custom bike. I had a Trek 5200 before I had the Kuota, but that had 650 wheels and the newer Treks do not. I wasn't planning on a new carbon bike until I turned 65, but I think I may do it now.

[thekarens]

I have a friend whose madone was stolen and just got a silque. She seems to love it.

[ny biker]

I know the Domane has shock-absorbing inserts. Maybe the Silque has them too? Otherwise what would make it "smoother"?

My only complaint with my Madone (from 2010) is that mass-produced carbon frames are more fragile than they should be. Otherwise I've been very happy with my bike. I did switch to a slightly narrower handlebar, otherwise it's very comfortable.

As noted elsewhere, I did loathe the new Bontrager Race TLR wheelset, and that might be the standard wheels for the mid-range bikes that Trek is selling these days. I found that they transmitted too much vibration from the road, and made my bike feel totally different. Of course it's possible that my Gatorskin tires were not the best tires for those wheels, and maybe the Bontrager tires that come with the bike combined with the wheels give a smoother ride. Anyway I only mention this because switching to a set of Mavic wheels (Ksyrium Equipe, IIRC) made me much happier, for about the same price. So if you don't like the road buzz you feel on your test rides, you might want to try swapping out the wheels for a set from one of your current bikes instead.

Happy shopping!!

[Crankin]

Yes, the Silque has the inserts. The Domaine is too upright for my taste.
I would be getting the mid level of Madone/Silque lines, although DH is willing to spring for the highest one. I don't need electronic shifting. I have nice wheels on the Kuota that I could transfer, but truthfully, I'm not that into wheels; I have Gatorskins on both of my current bikes.
It will be awhile until this happens, but I want to test ride before it snows! And Murienn, you know I don't name my bikes!

[Crankin]

Yup, I have the Kuota and the Guru. I also am not into paint jobs, decals, or other cosmetic looking stuff. I just want good components on a bike that fits.

[Crankin]

I read the review. The fact that the bike is described as upright makes me think I should just stick to the Madone. As far as the reach, I have never had an issue reaching the shifters with Ultegra, in the drops, it's the brakes. They don't make the short reach brifters in Ultegra anymore and I'be had to scrounge for parts on E Bay when I've needed them for the Kuota. My Guru has short reach 105s, but they are not quite as short reach. The Madone I rode was about like the Guru. I can deal with that, as long as I have a short and shallow bar, which I will get if it's not on there. I have smaller hands with long fingers; nothing like people with really teeny hands. I rode in the drops a lot on the trip, but that was most on flats. I just don't like descending enough to get down low. However, with the handling of that bike, I might.
Of course, getting the DI2 might help with the reach, but I don't know if it's worth it, as well as my tendency to hate change.

[Crankin]

Yes, I was surprised to see the Silque described as upright in that article, since the geometry is the same! I thought I would try both, to see if the inserts made any difference, but I am wary. The roads in Portugal were average to smooth, but I did ride on cobbles and that sucked more than I can describe. However, it would suck for me on any bike. I was jealous of those on the trip who used hybrids during those stints.
If the bike is so new, it might be hard to find one to test and I am not up for months of testing. I really, really want to use the local shop, although I could go to a bigger one that I trust, about 15 miles away. It's the shop my son raced for and we know the mechanic. He's the one that sold my son the now classic Serrota, which my other son now rides. I have an errand to do shortly, and I may stop in at the shop, but there is a specific person I want to deal with and I don't know his name (he fitted my friend on a Project One bike and spent hours with him). I do not want to deal with the owners. He is mean and she is crazy. I hate walking in and she yells, "Hi, Scott's mom." Of course, I drive by this shop at least 10 times a week...

[ny biker]

I am wondering how it is described as upright and while at the same time having the same geometry as the Madone. Unless the Madone is also considered an upright bike.

Perhaps in the smaller frame sizes, they are the same or very similar, but in larger sizes there is more of a difference?

[ny biker]

(Confused yet?).

Yes. ;)

But at some point I will need to understand this sort of thing. I have no plans to replace my Madone anytime soon, but in the back of my mind, I think when I do I will look into touring bikes. But in order to make any informed decisions, I will need to understand the differences in geometry and why they matter. So far I haven't gone beyond finding out that neither the Surly LHT or Trek's version of a touring bike comes in a women-specific version, and this is a concern for me since the Madone WSD is a far better fit for me than the men's Trek bike that I used to ride.

But as I said, I have no immediate plans to ditch the Madone. I needed a slightly narrower handlebar than the stock version, but otherwise it fits me fine and does what I want a road bike to do. My only caution to Crankin (or others considering a mass-produced carbon frame) is that it is more fragile than an aluminum or steel bike, so you need to be careful about it leaning it on things, turning it over, etc, in order to prevent anything from hitting the frame.

[Crankin]

Murienn, I am not going to do trig to figure this out! I am just not that wonky. I think I have eliminated the Silque. Yes, I have effective top tube and the other measurement (I can't remember what you said and I can't leave this page without losing what I've typed!). I have a very detailed computer printout and drawing from my Guru build. Here's the deal. When I went for the Guru fitting, he kept trying to make it more "relaxed" than my carbon bike, knowing that I would be using that bike for longer, hillier rides. I kept saying, "no, no, no!" until it felt somewhat similar to what I am used to, when I was on the fitting machine. So, the seat tube is appropriately high, while the seat tube on my Kuota is effectively cut down to nothing, to make the bike fit me. Does this make sense? The Kuota is essentially a men's 48 cm that has no seat tube and no head tube. I don't understand all the talk about spacers, etc. All I can say that I am now used to feeling very tight and cramped on my bike, and I like that feeling. However, when I rode the Madone, it has a sloped top tube, and the seat tube was not like my Kuota, more like the Guru. So I felt like I was riding a small bike that felt smooth and not twitchy, like the Kuota. I am used to the Kuota, but I know I can get a bike that feels smooth and is not twitchy. The biggest issue I have with my Guru is the height of my saddle in relation to the seat tube. I know this doesn't explain what I feel, but when I get on my Kuota, I clip in with one foot, push off and go. I am seated and clipped in with both feet in less than a second. With the Guru, I feel like the bike is too big when I try to start. It's like the saddle is too high, but it is not, because when I actually start riding, it's perfect. I have crashed a few times in my driveway because I jabbed myself in the azz with the saddle and my shorts got caught on the Guru. I have to clip in, and consciously push myself what feels like very far *up* and then make sure I am seated, then clip in with the other foot. If there's even an inch of an incline, I can't start gracefully. I am not great at hill starts on the Kuota, but this is very weird when it happens on the Guru. This has something to do with the geometry, and it may be that I am just used to a bike that is small and cramped. I actually like that feeling, it feels safe. My saddle is not too low on either bike.
NY, I am not sure what issues you have had with the carbon on "mass produced" bikes. I have had 2 carbon mass produced bikes and I don't particularly take stellar care of my bikes! I throw my Kuota in the back of my station wagon multiple times in a season and lean my bike up against all kinds of stuff. It's fallen over, and I've had a couple of crashes, too. There are no cracks at all. I had it checked after the crash I had when it was pretty new. I had even more crashes with my Trek 5200, as I was still a fairly new rider when I got it. DH is willing to pay for the more custom Project One, but I am not. The Madone I rode in Portugal was a bottom of the line, and even that felt better than my Kuota. I knew the components were crap and those things all can be changed.

[Crankin]

You know, I think that may be it. It's been pouring out, so I am not going out to the shed to check! I know I am not going crazy, because once, earlier in the spring, I was riding with Hirakukibou, and she saw this happen as I was taking off from a busy intersection. Her comment was, "I see exactly what you mean."
I don't find the dismounting as weird. I think I did at first, though. I do love the smooth feel of the titanium, but the cornering still does not feel the way the Madone did. The Madone felt like a small bike and the Guru doesn't.
DH still wants me to test both. I guess it can't hurt.

[Crankin]

Explain slack head tube and trail, please!
I am sure they had to do stuff to fit the 700c wheels. It makes sense. I have experienced toe overlap on the Guru, while turning very tightly into my uphill driveway. I am conscious of this now, and generally will ride past the driveway and approach from the other direction, as this also gives me some momentum up the hill. It's the only place I've had this. Never had it on the Kuota. My old Trek had 650 wheels and so did the first road bike I had (a Cannonade).

[Crankin]

Oy, this stuff makes my head spin. I would say my Kuota is twitchy; so if that's the same as unresponsive, that's what it is. The trail stuff is a little harder for me to get!
I am definitely looking at 47 cm. that's what I had before and that's what I rode in Portugal. As far as which one, not sure yet, probably the one below the top or right below that.

[Triskeliongirl]

Twitchy usually means too responsive. But the bottom line is the Madonne felt good on you, so that is what you should get. But test ride to be sure it really has the same geometry as the one you road in portugal, since I believe Madonne's come in different 'fits' which equates to different frame geometry even though they are all Madonnes. You mentioned needing short reach levers. I used to ride w ultegra 9spd short reach levers, but when i got my cervelo it had durace 10 and I couldn't reach the brake levers. So, I glued in the shims that came with the ultra 9 short reach levers, and then ordered additional shims from specialized until I got the reach how i like. I think the newer group sets have more adjustability in the brake levers so they can be brought in (at least SRAM do) so ask your LBS about this. My 48cm cervelo RS has 650c wheels so no TCO. Same for my older terrys (actually they have 700c rear, 24" front). I personally will not ride a bike with TCO although I know many do and don't care.

[Crankin]

Hi Trisk!
Yes, I am aware that all of the different Madones have different fits and after more research, I've discovered that basically, all they have for 2015 is the low end bike I rode on my trip and the very high end, which you can customize. Did some comparing of the geometry to my Guru, since I have the stats on that and it's in the ballpark. I think I will go with the Project One build, because I can bring the price down just by not getting electronic shifting. However, as to the short reach brifters, I have experienced the same issue. I've had a couple of mechanicals/crash things where I had to get new levers and as I said, we've resorted to getting them from E Bay or ordering them from the UK, where they still seem to have the R700s Ultegras. The reach to the brakes was not ideal on the bike I rode, but I could comfortably ride in the drops, as the bar was short and shallow. I could shift easily from the drops (I have long fingers), but to brake, I had to have my hands all the way up in the curve of the bar. I will see about shims when doing the build. The last time I had shims, I felt they compromised the braking. According to DH, if I got the Ultegra electronic shifting, the levers are adjustable and recommended for short reach. I just don't think it's worth an extra 3K! I am sticking with Shimano, I just don't want to learn another system. I have no philosophical reason to be against SRAM, just deathly afraid, I'd forever be shifting wrong and something bad would happen. It's all about muscle memory for me, and shifting is the one thing about riding that has always been intuitive for me, so I don't want to change. For me, it's all the reach, not the size of my hands. I wear a medium woman's gloves and when DH and I compared our fingers, they were exactly the same length! I keep thinking of that "man hands" joke from the 70s.
I am not sure if the LBS is open tomorrow, but might go over there if it is. I just came home from a 32 mile ride and that was more important than going to the shop today. This whole thing seems very complicated, and I want to get this right.

[Triskeliongirl]

To be clear Crankin, my understanding is that there is nothing special about the short reach ultegra levers vs a normal lever, except for the fact that they come with shims. I learned this when I needed to replace a short reach lever on a bike and couldn't get one, so I ordered a regular lever, and then moved the shim from the old to the new lever. SO, shimming a lever does not compromise the braking in any way. The only difference is that SRAM I believe has a screw that lets you bring the lever closer with an adjustment, whereas a shim brings it in by sticking a physical block in there. So, while the unshimmed levers look prettier, I believe that the end result is the same, so I would not make my choice based on whether you are worried about a shim or not. Regarding the electronic levers though, I have no experience with those to know if there are differences that make it a better choice. SO you need to talk to your LBS folks about that, but be careful they aren't just trying to sell you a more expensive lever. I have no issues braking with my durace 10 shimmed levers, and shifts do feel crisper than previous iterations of ultegra.

[Crankin]

OK, I bit the bullet and went to the LBS today. They were wonderful. As I said, we have had a long association with them, though have never bought a bike there. I had a print out of the exact build I wanted of the Silque that had the exact same geometry as the Madone I rode. It was very confusing on line, but DH and I figured it out, and then the store owner got out the books from this year and last to make sure we were right. Obviously, I couldn't ride anything they had, but I am confident that with the geometry I had an "aha" moment with, it will be fine. I never felt pushed or bullied, and I had 2 men and one woman all helping me, making choices. I tried the DI2 on a trainer, and no way... it felt weird. I said they had to convince me and they didn't. I'm sticking with the Ultra 6800 group and getting an 11-32 on the back. Going on Thursday for the Guru fit and some choices will be made then. I will probably order some things at the cheapest level, knowing that we may switch out, based on the fit. This may be coming at an opportune time, as I discovered several big scratches on the paint of my Kuota; it appears the clear coat is rubbed off from something about the way I put my light on the bike, last Tuesday. DH clear coated it, but it looks like crap, after just 8 years. I won't get anything for this bike, so I may just keep it as a bike I could commute on, apart from my Guru.

[Crankin]

That web site was making both me and DH nuts.
Yes, I am buying the Silque. The shop owner got out the "big book" from Trek for the last 2 years, to find the geometry of the Madone 3.1 in a 47 and then we compared it to the Silques, until he also found the one that has exactly the same geometry (well, one measurement is off by .1 of a cm). It is the same comparison I found at home. You are right, something funny is going on with the Madones. I am getting the Silque SSL, which means we started subtracting from the price of the almost 12k one that is on line. I will end up paying about 5,500, which is a great price and less than either of my other 2 bikes. The Guru fitting is free, of course, and I am even going to get a saddle fitting, as this LBS has the butt-O-meter. I ordered one that might work, which can be exchanged. First time I have ever been optimistic about getting a new bike and a good fit.
The female half of the shop owners wasn't as weird yesterday. And, I really liked the other fitter/mechanic, who worked with my friend.

[Crankin]

Just got an email that the paint I chose is extra. Back to the drawing board. Definitely don't want white. I am a dirt magnet. Will settle this much later tonight.

[Crankin]

It was black, with white lettering, white stem and something else, red, fading to white stripe on the top tube. There's some other options that are similar. I wrote a nasty email to my DH and said I would decide later. He has to work late tonight, and right now it's 8:30, I commuted home about 20 minutes ago, just ate, and have a ton of work that is probably going to wait until early AM to do. It seems like my days are either busy or bordering on boring...

[Crankin]

After a sleepless night, I decided on the one that has a similar look, that doesn't cost extra. Has a red fade to purple stripe, red lettering on a black frame. Almost got a totally black one.

[Crankin]

The original choice was 850.00 extra. We were willing to go for 400.00 extra, but in the end, decided not to.
It's 65 degrees out and I'm at work! I need to ride my bike.

[ny biker]

850 DOLLARS to paint a bike?

I'm in the wrong business!

When will it be ready?

[Crankin]

I'll know more Thursday, but the turn around time is about 2-3 wks if it's not custom painted.
Yeah, they get paid well.

[Crankin]

Just got back from my fitting, about 45 minutes ago. I was there for over 2 hours. Good, but exhausting. They were surprised I rode there :eek:. It's 3.5 miles, and I had to be in my bike clothes, so, duh!
So, what I came away with, is that my reach will be 4 inches shorter and that I've been riding a saddle that's too wide. He was shocked I've never had chafing, just soft tissue issues. I measured a 144 on the butt o meter, so he tried me on a 143 Oura. The extra long cut out was great, but the shape of the saddle is different, so I actually need a bigger size, which Specialized is out of. I felt like my azz was rolling off the saddle. And my sit bones hurt, which he said goes away. Anyway, the bike will be coming with a saddle that might be OK, too. That's the least of my cares. The seatpost will have 0 setback. He showed me what it meant, but if I had to explain it, I couldn't. Good news is that all the stuff the fitting came up with will be OK with the Silque. My shoulders are actually only 36.5, but I'm fine with a 38 bar. I have long arms for a small person, I have a strong core, and I am super flexible, which are all things I knew. However, he noted several things that I was doing when on the fitting machine, where I wasn't using my strong core... mostly bad habits to compensate for the long reach.
He'll do up the stuff and will be sending me a final estimate later. While I was in there, one of the area's top spin instructors was in there, buying a bike for her son. She has one of those weird voices that a lot of younger people have, even though she looked to be in her 40s. She was giving me the once over; I've met a lot people like this recently. They do almost everything at the gym and going outside is like strange to them. It kept me amused while I was waiting for him to get the Guru thing set up.

[Crankin]

The other woman there, no, just an observation of a certain type of person (I became aware at the gym) who sees the stuff they do at the gym as something to get done, before the rest of their life/obligations. They are often addicted to exercise in an unhealthy way and cringe when I describe getting sweaty/dirty/etc. Some compete in triathlons or running events, but train almost excusively inside, with a few runs in between. Maybe I'm just too observant of others!
I will talk to the fitter about changing the seat post to zero offset on my Guru. Bad news is, it probably won't be until the end of December until I get the new bike. In the 4 days since I first went in, there's a growing shortage of 165 cranks... oh well. My riding is winding down and my only goal now is to get to 2,500 miles. I have less than 100 miles to go, but the weather is against me this weekend. I've ridden 27 miles this week! Thoughts of x country skiing are entering my brain.
No one, except you guys at TE knows I'm getting a new bike. Going over there in the early afternoon, after work, to give them the downpayment (half). It ended up being around 5K.

[Crankin]

I am leaning toward selling it. I don't need 3 road bikes. I won't get much, but at this point who cares? I'd rather save up for that mixte/town bike for when we move off of the hill.
No rush, though, on selling.

[Crankin]

Yes, that's it. The frame is kind of not in great shape, DH clear coated it last week. Lots of dings and I'm not so great at keeping it clean. Though, it looks new-ish and it's been maintained well. It might sell for the "fair" price to a small woman or man; it's got new components.
There's a lot of riders around here. I am sure I can find a buyer.

[Crankin]

Mine is red with black /white accents. Still "common" bike colors, and not girly at all. I hate girly looking bikes, no offense to anyone who likes pink! My mom refused to dress me in pink as a baby/toddler, and since i had no hair until i was about 3, I have heard I was always mistaken for a boy. Ah, the good old 50's. Anyway, I am going to wait until I get the Trek, and make sure the zero offset seatpost works, as well as the rest of the fit, and then I will bring in my Guru to the fitter. I am definitely selling the Kuota.

[Crankin]

I saw your post about 650 wheels. The Silque does not have them, but the geometry of the bike, as you said will be fine with the 700s. My 5200 did have 650s. I never noticed any difference in my riding, frankly. I don't have toe overlap on the Kuota, and it's only when I attempt very tight turns on the Guru. I just don't do that! I originally wanted 650 wheels on the Guru, but was convinced otherwise, especially with buying new tires, tubes, wheels. It was a pain when I had 650s. It's something I might consider for the Guru, though, in the future. I rode the Guru yesterday, for a short ride, without the pannier. it really does ride nicely, because of the ti, but I always feel "high up." Of course, I always feel the difference when I switch between bikes, much more than others. I was dealing with issues on my Frog cleats on my winter shoes, so that added something else to the mix. That's fixed now, though. If I just remember to push up in a different way when I start, I'm fine. It's when I get into an intersection when I have to go quickly that I get nervous and I often have to make more than one attempt. I've scooted across quite a few intersections when I got nervous, mostly about approaching traffic, in situations where I am perfectly at ease on the Kuota.

[Crankin]

My new bike has shipped!!!!

[Catrin]

How did I miss this?!?!? Congratulations!!!!

[Crankin]

Well, maybe you have better things to do than read about my new bike!!???
The shop told me it wouldn't be until the end of December. I feel pretty confident that I'll get at least one ride in on it, before the snow flies. I don't care if it's 5 miles and 20 degrees out.

[OakLeaf]

Watch out for ice!

[Crankin]

I will start a new thread, with pics, etc. It seems like I was just propping the Kuota up in the living room to take a picture of it for TE. But, that was in 2006.
Oak, no ice around here. No snow, either. There's been snow close, and a few flurries, but other than the sporadic year when it happens around Thanksgiving, we rarely have a bigger snowstorm before the middle of December.
We struggled with whether we would take an early season "warm up" cycling trip in late February or early March, or do a major x country ski trip. Our friends got invited to do a "bigger givers" x country ski trip with the AMC President's Circle, in Yellowstone. We got invited, too, despite the fact we don't give AMC tons of $ (but they want us to). But, when we looked at the trip's details, it was just a little too much back country skiing for us, particularly, DH. So, we bowed out of that. For years, we've wanted to ski in the Methow Valley, WA and we decided this is the year! We found a x country ski trip there, done by a cycling touring company. Not that we wouldn't have gone there on our own, but we will get to see more, without renting a car. And, we are both going to take some skate ski lessons. I am excited. So, no winter cycling for me, especially the kind that requires shipping my new bike.