Saying nothing, not doing much is abit difficult

[shootingstar]

Have become good friends with another woman from the same employer. Known her now for over 3 years.

She's in her early-mid 40's and is single. No children. For whatever reason she refuses to tell me her exact age and she' not your delicate, fashionable chic dressed woman. A pragmatic, honest woman with some natural mechanical skills.

She rarely cooks a meal for herself. She buys prepared meals from stores or goes to restaurants. Is probably over 50 lbs overweight. She's been in 2 car accidents that has caused some long standing whiplash injuries .

However she loves to golf (and does do it with a pile of other women throughout the year which means she goes on golfing vacations too), kayaking (rare, because she needs to somewhere decent to do it) and occasionally cycles. She knows a lot about cycling, commuting and bikes...since that's actually part of her paid job.

I've discreetly steered us eat to at my place where I prepare a meal. I bring along a tiny amount of fresh fruit for us to snack. This weekend we just went to a leisurely ride to farmers' market.. I bought groceries while she bought bits for her backpack... When I eat out with her, I join in eating occasional fattening thick pizza (not my style), etc. I'm not a purist.

Sometimes there's absolutely nothing one can do. I'm certain half of her problem is eating at restaurants and never prepping any meal at home.

Anyway, I'm just mumbling in concern. I can only be a friend, have good times, etc.

[emily_in_nc]

Yup. Unless she asks for your help or advice, you just have to live and let live, even when it's hard or she does things dietarily that are not "right" for her. It's her life and her choices. To me, people who try to push their choices onto me when I haven't solicited their input are a real turn-off.

Just be her friend and let it be. Nothing wrong with bringing fruit or modeling healthier behavior, like buying healthy foods at the farmer's market, though. :)

[smilingcat]

Enjoy the food. Enjoy your friend!

If she enjoys deep dish pizza or Sicilian style by all means enjoy her eating her favorite dish. I'm sure you can find something else like simple salad with slice of mozzarella cheese and some olive...Just because she wants to order something bit heavy doesn't mean you have to do the same.

I can also understand why she doesn't want to cook. My mother and my partner's mother do the same sort of thing as your friend. They just don't find it all that exciting to cook for themselves and for one. Cooking often is a means to make others happy and the reward is in the gratitude you receive. So frozen dinner and take out it is when it is just for yourself.

Well at least she is golfing and does some cycling. Could be lot lot worse.

[shootingstar]

My mother and my partner's mother do the same sort of thing as your friend. They just don't find it all that exciting to cook for themselves and for one. Cooking often is a means to make others happy and the reward is in the gratitude you receive. So frozen dinner and take out it is when it is just for yourself.


I'm probably very different --even as a university student so long ago, I found preparing a meal for myself a source of comfort and intellectual relief from studying. I actually didn't understand other students' craze for consecutive nights of fast food. My home "comfort" food tends to be some of the Chinese peasant dishes that my mother prepared/still prepares that now I've integrated into my own style for the past few decades.

I don't really think much about cooking when it's for myself (and dearie isn't always around). Whereas for other people, it seems to require too much thinking, prepping even if it's just cooking for themselves. It's not as if I have well-stocked, hugely diverse fridge/cupboard either. (I was grateful for that when I was evacuated after a major river flood disaster last summer. At least I didn't lose much spoiled food when the electrical power was shut off.)

[Crankin]

I am more like you, Shooting Star. Maybe, even more so. When I was single, I made myself a home cooked meal every night. Made a grocery list, shopped weekly, and cooked. I still went out to restaurants a lot, but no different than I do now. This was right at the time (the only time) I had to lose a significant amount of weight, and I am sure eating fresh, non prepared food helped. It's also when i started exercising. I can't imagine buying food every night, even healthy food from the natural foods grocer. My cupboard was stocked, and I often cooked for my friends, in my tiny studio apartment. When i wanted a really good meal, I drove to my parents' house, about 5 miles away! Food is such an integral part of my extended family, I can't imagine any other way. My brother, who is ten years younger and brought up in an entirely different environment is exactly the same. His cupboards look scarily like mine!

[Irulan]

Just be her friend and let it be. Nothing wrong with bringing fruit or modeling healthier behavior, like buying healthy foods at the farmer's market, though. :)

Wise woman.

[shootingstar]

I am more like you, Shooting Star. Maybe, even more so. When I was single, I made myself a home cooked meal every night. Made a grocery list, shopped weekly, and cooked. I still went out to restaurants a lot, but no different than I do now. This was right at the time (the only time) I had to lose a significant amount of weight, and I am sure eating fresh, non prepared food helped. It's also when i started exercising. I can't imagine buying food every night, even healthy food from the natural foods grocer. My cupboard was stocked, and I often cooked for my friends, in my tiny studio apartment. When i wanted a really good meal, I drove to my parents' house, about 5 miles away! Food is such an integral part of my extended family, I can't imagine any other way. My brother, who is ten years younger and brought up in an entirely different environment is exactly the same. His cupboards look scarily like mine!

I don't shop every day. I just buy 1-2 times per week. For past few decades, I just cook using whole, fresh veggies, fresh meat (pretty rare that I buy frozen meat, but I take it home, cut it up and freeze meal size portions), etc. Really, cooking is like sleep-walking abit for me. It's semi-intuitive to throw meals together for myself, dearie or small group of family/friends. I don't even plan my meals much at all..I just buy what's on sale/in season and complement with other stuff.

In a way, it's like cycling: learn some good habits, good base dishes (like good base routes) and just go with the flow.

As for friend, I'm glad she is a naturally socialable person to do the golfing, etc. She knows my style of cooking because some of it reminds ....of her mother's style. :D

Here's my on-the-spot intuitive cooking for her and I a few days ago for supper: Japanese green tea noodles sautéed with tomatoes, canned clams, onions, garlic and basil. We had fresh corn on cob on the side. Then yogurt with fresh berries in season. We ate it all. And went out for cup of dark coffee at a café.

[Crankin]

I didn't shop everyday, either. Once a week to the regular store; just like my mom! I supplemented with trips to the co-op. The Tempe Natural Foods Co-op was big and active even in the late 70s. The last time I was in AZ, it's turned into a huge store, nothing like the natural foods store I go to now. My way of shopping and cooking never has changed much over the years, even with the addition of a husband and 2 kids. The only thing that's different now is that I go to local small farmers for fruits and veggies about 5 months out of the year.

[PamNY]

I'm certain half of her problem is eating at restaurants and never prepping any meal at home.

Wait, what -- her "problem?" What exactly is her problem? You describe her as an honest, pragmatic person with natural mechanical skills (something I envy). She golfs with friends, travels, enjoys kayaking, and knows a lot about cycling. Sounds like someone I'd like to meet (as long as there's not too much discussion about golf, but I digress).

I can't figure out how to express this politely so I will just say it -- such importance being attached to this woman's weight is disturbing to me.

[Crankin]

In some way, I agree with you, Pam, but I am finding it more and more difficult to be friends with people who don't live the same lifestyle I do. It might not sound nice, but it's true. I think for Shooting Star, it's just an observation of her friend's habits. At this point, I am down to just going out to eat or have coffee with 2 of my "regular" friends, whom I have known for 20+ years. One is overweight, has been since I've known her. She has every excuse in the world (I don't like to sweat) and it gets on my nerves. The other used to be fairly athletic, but has had a couple of injuries (she does things like tennis, which I suck at) and is just generally acting older and older, even though she is my age. They used to go out for a walk with me, but now, won't even do that. So much of my own life revolves around cycling or other outdoor activity, I am also limited in what I can talk to them about; our grown up kids, politics, gossip about others. It's sad, but true.

[salsabike]

Really? I love having friends who are into totally different things than me so I can hear about those things. That includes people in their 90s. A couple of people in wheelchairs. For me, that's the richness of other people--that they bring things to the table that I don't.

[Blueberry]

Sometimes there's absolutely nothing one can do. I'm certain half of her problem is eating at restaurants and never prepping any meal at home.


Wait, what -- her "problem?" What exactly is her problem? You describe her as an honest, pragmatic person with natural mechanical skills (something I envy). She golfs with friends, travels, enjoys kayaking, and knows a lot about cycling. Sounds like someone I'd like to meet (as long as there's not too much discussion about golf, but I digress).

I can't figure out how to express this politely so I will just say it -- such importance being attached to this woman's weight is disturbing to me.

I have debated responding to this thread - but since this is one of many, I feel I need to. I don't think this is necessarily intended, but this comes across as fat shaming (or whatever term you want to apply to the general judgments passed upon people with weight problems).

Since this woman doesn't model the OP's "good habits" of preparing all meals at home in a particular style of cooking, that is half of her "problem." Yet, the OP also admits she has injuries from car accidents - maybe there is a limit on her exercise, maybe she has endocrine issues, you just don't know. There are many assumptions that go into these kinds of judgments - some people don't have the time or resources to prepare healthy meals at home. There are plenty of studies out there saying that healthy eating is both time and money expensive. Doesn't sound like that is the issue here - but it is for a large number of people. Some people never learned to cook - it is something of an acquired skill. The OP mentions "eating occasional fattening thick pizza" with this woman. Are all of her meals like this?

I think I would have a lot in common with most of the women on TE - I bike (sometimes more than others - but I'm out there), I can ALWAYS go for a long walk or a hike (DH and I walked about 5 miles must for fun a couple of days ago), I go to the gym to supplement my exercise, and I swim. I do prepare most of my own meals from whole ingredients (generally minimally processed things, with few prepared sauces, etc.), mostly vegetables. I don't enjoy cooking for the most part - it takes time out of a generally overpacked schedule, but I do it for both health and financial reasons (eating high quality food out is expensive). Nevertheless, I have a weight problem. On the rare occasion I eat out, I will sometimes have a treat (probably less than once a month) - I might eat a small ice cream or a slice of pizza. People have actually said things to me about these occasional treats - people who don't know me, who have no idea what the rest of my lifestyle looks like, and who have absolutely no right to comment on my weight.

I completely understand a lifestyle difference being an issue with friendship - but I don't understand what seems to be a huge preoccupation with the weight of others or what they might eat during a few shared meals.

[OakLeaf]

Thank you, Pam and Blueberry.

I have no reason to think that Shootingstar is anything less than polite in her actual encounters with all these people, but the level of condescension that gets expressed in these threads has to be apparent to them. There's a world of difference between recognizing that one has little in common with someone, even someone who used to be a close friend, vs actively pursuing a relationship from a position of judgment.

[shootingstar]

Before this thread spins out of control....simply because I made an observation...

This why she is good friend, does other stuff that's interesting to hear, learn about, volunteers, etc. I follow her faithfully to health food stores where she buys organic fruit here and there, so clearly she cares about her health. (But unfortunately wasn't interested in buy fresh fruit at the market....which didn't make much sense. But anyway..)

She shows me literature about detox diets, etc. I rarely know how to respond to this. I just listen....because I don't know what to say. What would you do/say in my shoes as a close friend, in that situation?

Don't tear me down. Seriously folks.

So there's not much I've bothered to do for the past 3 years and probably not much I plan to, as a friend. The half-joke that I said earlier that some of my cooking probably reminds her of her mother's cooking: she is Chinese-Canadian also and also a peasant family background. That's the insider knowledge of this story.

In the Calgary where I live, unlike Vancouver or Toronto, a lot of the restaurant food choices are just heavier. Period. Less seafood, veggie choices. This is ranchland prairie Canada. I was abit stunned going into a Chinese restaurant here for dim sum...and how different the style was in terms of execution: heavier, oilier dim sum and even more larger portions (when already Chinese restaurants do serve large share portions).

[malkin]

Maybe your friend is also biting her tongue, secretly wishing that you would make food choices that would give you a more substantial body weight like hers!

[shootingstar]

She knows I enjoy my gourmet desserts, malkin. She does tell me, she doesn't eat much desserts. I'm not surprised..she and I share similar childhood background Chinese diets in Canada with immigrant parents...means growing up with less desserts. Chinese cuisine has very limited traditional desserts. Nowadays they imitate the fluffy creamy European little cake slices, etc. She's also like me, gets drunk fast after a glass of wine. Yes, we do joke about the Asian tendencies...again you have to be Asian to make such inside jokes.

It's a close friendship malkin. She knows the loss of my sister, my dying father. It is a real friendship with giving. This is why I'm perturbed why people here are judging me so hard.

Against the backdrop of all this, is the stress of her job...which is a supportive, paid job on cycling infrastructure and alternative multi-modal transportation for our city. Our city is incredibly conservative and still very car-oriented but we are Canada's fastest growing city. As you know, I am cycling advocate, and have ostensibly volunteered in this capacity in other cities. I know how difficult it can be (and I hear it from my partner's efforts). I am probably the friend that understands her job the best....because I am long-time cyclist for transportation, advocate and we both work for the same employer.

Please don't tear me down.

So whatever people in the cycling community: always, always thank your paid city staff who work on cycling infrastructure, transit, etc. I know some cyclists don't like separated bikes, MUPs, etc..... thank these people anyway. It's hard job, sometimes greatly misunderstood.

[OakLeaf]

I'm perturbed why people here are judging me so hard ...

Please don't tear me down.


Did you even read what Pam or Blueberry said? We're perturbed that you are judging her so hard. When you choose this forum to tear your friend down, it hurts people. Even if your friend doesn't read what you write here, it hurts the people who do.

[shootingstar]

I give up Oak because this thread has spun out of control. I don't say anything to her anyway about eating better. Maybe it was a mistake to even discuss here. Right? But I'm sure other people have been in the same situation as a friend.

I share lots of stuff with her that's not food oriented/health stuff...which I gave in my latest responses. But I guess everyone here now thinks I'm an orge or whatever.

Alot of us are probably guilty (if that's the right word), of "judging" friends for lifestyle, etc. I'm just um...dumb enough to reveal it.

So: What would you do if a friend was talking about a detox diet?

[Crankin]

Salsa, I do enjoy meeting people with different interests, but, when it comes down to who i am actually spending my time with, it's the people I ride with or do other outdoor stuff with. Since this is the thing that it is the center of my life, whatever else happens has to happen outside this parameter. I hope I am explaining this so it makes sense. And quite frankly, there's tons of research that shows we are usually friends with with people that we share similarities with, in some way. On the one hand, I *know* a huge amount of people, many of whom are quite different than me. I am friendly, cordial, interested, but it's not going to go beyond that. I'd be lying if I said I wanted to spend my time with someone who was going to McDonalds and shopping in the mall every weekend. And Blueberry, not everyone who I ride with is skinny. There's a variety in body types, just as in any group. It's the lifestyle that's the same. My friends who no longer have much in common with me anymore have a totally different lifestyle, and one of them (the one who is not really overweight, just acts like an old lady) is constantly saying, "Well, I can't be like you." The thing is, I never say she should be, and I never, ever brag about what I do. It seems like, to her, just the fact that I ride, x country ski is enough to make her feel badly, without me saying anything. I know that it is her problem, but... it's getting pretty hard to find a common ground, when she would rather talk about her other friends's operations, health issues, and "retirement."
Sometimes I feel like I am getting younger, and everyone else around me is getting older. It's not that the people in my riding groups haven't had health issues; it's the fact they deal with them and keep going, with being active being the main priority. It's the main reason why I am no longer active at my synagogue. All I see are bent over, unhealthy looking people among those who are my age.

[Irulan]

I always go back to the Serenity Prayer... so applicable in all facets of life.

Accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference. <<<<< figure this part out and then let it go. How much emotional energy to do you spend on the things out of your control? It sure seems like a lot from what I read here.

[salsabike]

Lovely, Muirenn. Thanks.

[shootingstar]

How much emotional energy to do you spend on the things out of your control? It sure seems like a lot from what I read here.
Yea, you're right, lruan. On this thread, it's not worth my time any more.

[lph]

Not to flog a dead horse, but there is a general point I'd like to make. The one thing that would have changed the whole situation was if the woman in question had expressed a desire herself to lose weight or eat more healthily. But assuming that someone wants to be more like you in some way when they haven't actually said so does easily come over as patronizing.

On the other hand, I think many of us are guilty of this. We're only human, and the more convinced we are that a certain behavior or a certain habit is not just a good thing, but practically life-changing, the more likely we are to prescribe it whether someone asks or not. And the more likely we are of being thought of as annoying zealots. Biking, healthy eating, crossfit, religion, political views - we all have these people in our Facebook feeds. We just don't notice them as much when they're talking about things we agree on.

[Crankin]

You know, I was being pretty honest in my replies; maybe they were a bit off topic, but my general feeling is that if any human being thinks s/he is not judgmental, s/he is fooling herself. The main thing for me is to acknowledge it, and move on. I never become zealous about cycling (or anything else), unless I am talking to others who share my passion, like everyone here! I've been told point blank to my face that my level of activity makes people feel bad about themselves, by former colleagues. It was said in a joking way, but I know they meant it. Again, it's not like I was pushing my lifestyle, more like it was discussed when asked what i did over the weekend. And believe me, there were many moments when I *wanted* to say something about others constant patter about their children or other things that really got on my nerves. Instead, I smiled and tried to be a good listener. I am sure others here have experienced this. I don't prescribe anything to my friends, unless they ask. Again, it's just that I feel like as I age, it's harder and harder to find people with like minds.

[emily_in_nc]

YI've been told point blank to my face that my level of activity makes people feel bad about themselves, by former colleagues.
...
Again, it's just that I feel like as I age, it's harder and harder to find people with like minds.


Yes and Yes! I couldn't agree more...

[Crankin]

Emily, I've always said we were separated at birth.

[ny biker]

I read the original post as concern for a friend's health. Because being 50 lbs overweight does lead to all sorts of health problems. I also didn't see condescension in it, at least no more than anyone else has about other peoples' dietary habits, which can rank with religion and politics in terms of divisive subjects.

I don't get involved with friends' diets unless they specifically mention that they're trying to make a change, and even then I usually just try to be supportive in a general way, regardless of what I really think about it. If a friend or relative started talking about something specific like a detox diet I might ask what they hoped to gain from it, and then might indicate if I thought a different approach would be better. If it was someone I didn't know that well, I'd stick with a vague supportive comment.

[emily_in_nc]

Emily, I've always said we were separated at birth.

Good chance of it! :D

[malkin]

I don't even think the thread got out of control.
I've seen piano tuners argue more viciously than this!

[salsabike]

Yep, I agree, Malkin. Nothing out of control on this thread--just people stating their views honestly.

Piano tuners?? I don't want to get off topic, but would love to hear THAT story someday. :)

[PamNY]

Piano tuners?? I don't want to get off topic, but would love to hear THAT story someday. :)

Me too.

[malkin]

The Tuners and Technicians forum over at Pianoworld.com can get pretty heated, even though most of the regulars there are sensible, down to earth types who are helpful with all the mechanical stuff about pianos. Even on a boring day, the thread titles are funny, but maybe that is just my twisted little mind. You decide, here are a few from the first page this morning:

Bobbling When Hard Blow
Prout's and Chris Leslie's Beaters
Overpull, then ?

The funny Craigslist listings are always entertaining too.

[PamNY]

Bobbling When Hard Blow
Prout's and Chris Leslie's Beaters
Overpull, then ?


That's almost a poem.

[salsabike]

I’m going to pull it back to serious for a minute, because my experience here is that disagreements are often quickly suppressed here by topic change or levity. I always think that’s a bit of a diss for the people who raised serious concerns. I agreed with Oak, PamNY, Blueberry, Muirenn, etc. If you post an implied criticism of a friend’s weight on a public forum where fitness is a focus, you can probably anticipate there will be some pushback.

To answer shootingstar’s question of what would you say when an overweight friend mentions detox diets: I would say, “Let me know how it works if you try it” and leave it there. If she wants or needs your help, she will ask for it.

I think I'll go look at the piano tuners' forum.

PS And by "my experience here", I meant TE occasionally over time--not this thread.

[Crankin]

I was just being honest. I know people will disagree with what I said, but all of this discussion is nothing compared to what I hear being spoken in real life. Let's face it, people are judged all of the time on physical appearance. You may disagree with this, but it happens all the time in the business world.
If a close friend asked my advice about a diet, etc. that I thought sounded unsafe, or just nothing that would help, I would tell exactly what I thought. If I hear something like this from acquaintances or in a work situation with colleagues, I keep my mouth shut. If I am asked point blank about how I stay fit/thin/whatever, from someone I don't know that well, I laugh and say "healthy eating and riding my bike, no magic."

[Veronica]

I know I can be very judgmental about others' weight. I think my judgement is clouded by the poor health of my siblings which is almost entirely weight related. And I don't want to lose any of them prematurely.

http://tandemhearts.smugmug.com/Other/Vs-80th-Birthday/i-T2DjfdL/0/L/_1120060-L.jpg

I am the only person in the picture not taking blood pressure medication. My oldest sister insisted for years it was genetic and just a matter of time for me. My check up in June it was 114/64. There's been knee replacements for one sister already. Another one is facing it. One brother is borderline diabetic. He's a truck driver and will lose his job if he goes on insulin. He'd lost 25 pounds in 4 months when this was taken in April. He checks his blood sugar daily and was struggling to keep it down while visiting.

I try to remember that while I know my siblings health history, I don't know that of every person I see. I know there are all sorts of things that make us who we are and lots of factors that go in to weight. If a person is happy, it really should not matter to anyone else what they look like. But in the case of my siblings, I care.

They all whined about getting into position for that photo. :D

Veronica

http://tandemhearts.smugmug.com/Other/Vs-80th-Birthday/i-vJsjqgW/0/S/_1120054-S.jpg

[Blueberry]

I was just being honest. I know people will disagree with what I said, but all of this discussion is nothing compared to what I hear being spoken in real life. Let's face it, people are judged all of the time on physical appearance. You may disagree with this, but it happens all the time in the business world.

Crankin - I didn't think you were out of line in this thread - I was just pointing out that sometimes lifestyle and weight don't match. I think we agree on that point. I agree 100% about judgment on personal experience. I know for a fact I have been a victim of it. I have significant interviews coming up this fall and I'm worried about it. One friend (just before feeding me a very unhealthy dinner I picked at and ate salad when I got home) very unhelpfully stated that I would likely not be accepted into the programs I'm interviewing for because of my weight. I just hope that others can be a bit more aware of it, and try not to make assumptions and judgments.

Veronica- You are a constant source of inspiration to me. I appreciate those who a) know all of the facts (as you do with your siblings) and b) truly care about the health issues (as you obviously do). I think that's rare, sadly.

For the record, I haven't given up because I know my weight is bad for me. I am constantly tweaking and trying to figure out what else might help (different exercise, more exercise, different balances of nutrients, etc.). Specific helpful advice is always welcome. Gross generalizations about one choice without taking the time to know more are not.

I hope I get to meet both of you in real life one day. :)

[Veronica]

I hope I get to meet both of you in real life one day. :)

Thank you! That made my day. I've met Crankin. She is pretty cool. :D

Veronica

[Crankin]

Thanks, Blueberry and Veronica! I tend to be pretty pragmatic. My mantra (from long before I became a therapist) is "there's always a reason for behavior." This may not apply in all cases, but I think it speaks to the fact that we can't always see what's behind what we actually see. My life has not been perfect and I am scared to death of heart disease, even though it does not run in my family. It's been a prime motivator for me, since I was in my 30s. And, after my DH had his stents put in, we really upped the ante in terms of lifestyle, even though the year he had the surgery, he rode 4,000 miles! It's made both of my kids supremely aware of this issue.
Veronica, we went to Maurizio's last Sunday; first time we've been there since we went with you and Thom. Really good, but not as much fun.

[malkin]

I don't think anyone was out of line anywhere in this thread.

I've been pondering the phrase "out of control" all afternoon, and I think clearly the thread is out of control in a good way. If one person or one opinion were in control of a discussion or a conversation, it would be boring. So no one controlled the conversation and it is interesting.

However, each of us remained "in control" of our own stuff. People were calm and rational. Some posts made some posters uncomfortable and they expressed their discomfort.

Okay, I may have been the teensiest bit random, off topic, and possibly humorous, but you all must know by now that I am benign and easily ignored.


Veronica: The family pics are wonderful!!

[salsabike]

I don't think anyone was out of line anywhere in this thread.

I've been pondering the phrase "out of control" all afternoon, and I think clearly the thread is out of control in a good way. If one person or one opinion were in control of a discussion or a conversation, it would be boring. So no one controlled the conversation and it is interesting.

However, each of us remained "in control" of our own stuff. People were calm and rational. Some posts made some posters uncomfortable and they expressed their discomfort.



Yep, this is also how I see it.

[tulip]

Crankin - I didn't think you were out of line in this thread - I was just pointing out that sometimes lifestyle and weight don't match. I think we agree on that point. I agree 100% about judgment on personal experience. I know for a fact I have been a victim of it. I have significant interviews coming up this fall and I'm worried about it. One friend (just before feeding me a very unhealthy dinner I picked at and ate salad when I got home) very unhelpfully stated that I would likely not be accepted into the programs I'm interviewing for because of my weight. I just hope that others can be a bit more aware of it, and try not to make assumptions and judgments.

Veronica- You are a constant source of inspiration to me. I appreciate those who a) know all of the facts (as you do with your siblings) and b) truly care about the health issues (as you obviously do). I think that's rare, sadly.

For the record, I haven't given up because I know my weight is bad for me. I am constantly tweaking and trying to figure out what else might help (different exercise, more exercise, different balances of nutrients, etc.). Specific helpful advice is always welcome. Gross generalizations about one choice without taking the time to know more are not.

I hope I get to meet both of you in real life one day. :)

I have met Blueberry in person and I can attest that she is beautiful inside and out. Crankin and Veronica, I hope you get to have the same honor to meet her as I have. (BTW, Blueberry, next time I'm in town, we should go over the new bike bridge!)

[Veronica]

Thanks, Thom's a good photographer. You know I was amazed at how well we all got along and how much I enjoyed their company. There's been some friction between my siblings over the years, but age seems to be tempering it. It's been several years since we've all been together. I hope we don't wait so long for the next one.

Veronica

[Wahine]

Veronica- You are a constant source of inspiration to me. I appreciate those who a) know all of the facts (as you do with your siblings) and b) truly care about the health issues (as you obviously do). I think that's rare, sadly.

I hope I get to meet both of you in real life one day. :)

I got to meet V. in person this summer and she is as beautiful IRL as she is here on the forum, inside and out.

As for the topic at hand, I see this as a healthy discussion with many varying opinions. It's why I keep coming back to TE. As Salsa said, if you voice an opinion here, you should be prepared to be challenged. That's what's great about this forum. Opinions can be discussed without malice.

[shootingstar]

The Internet may tend to skew a person to be viewed in a particular way because after all, is cycling oriented does tend to chat up about health, fitness matter.

For what it's worth about the context of my remarks in this thread:
My good friend thanked me for getting her azz back on her bike (her words) after our short enjoyable rides. She has 3 bikes. Has loaned one of them to a newbie to get person more into cycling. Then she and I went into a judgemental (probably is) chat where she was concerned about another good friend, a strong outspoken engineer from our city who loves to kayak, etc. , who recently converted to Islam during her work stint in Dubai after meeting a Syrian guy. Friend has dropped out of her career..for the UN and plans to be a housewife in Dubai... Good friend wonders how well her new Islam converted friend will adjust to a completely different lifestyle where women don't have the same equal rights as in North America. Except for ex-pats it might be different.

Anyway... hanging out with good friend is fun. She is also dedicated to her job on supporting cycling infrastructure and alternate mobility options..to a point on personal time, she is taking photos of key, under-discussion cycling infrastructure whenever she and I are walking or cycling around in the evenings. Like other paid staff, they don't have always have much time to take photos of cycling infrastructure at every key stage, and also hope there are cyclists 24x7 on the infrastructure for photos needed for reports, presentations, public education, etc.

So I give some stuff from my massive digital personal photo collection.

Blueberry I don't know what program you are applying for which other friends commented in a discouraging way. When a sister entered medical school, it never occurred to me she shouldn't or she somehow would have to contend with impressions of some patients or whoever, with her weight as a physician. She did lose 50 lbs. temporarily for a few years and then regained abit after having 2 children when she became a mother after 35 yrs. She does her thing...jogs, pilates, etc. She also advises parents as a doctor, to try feeding at least 5-10 times a veggie, prepared in different ways to their child to like eating a broad range of veggies, etc. early in life. She cares about her own health but knowing her, she also doesn't waste time worrying much what others think.

My mother, who has never completed high school (I disagree that many uneducated/low income folks eat unhealthy. They can be inventive and healthy.), yet she has fed her family of 6 children and hubby, healthy home meals for over 60 years. Yet, when you look at her, you wouldn't know it: high blood pressure controlled by drugs for last 2 decades, moderately overweight (she has been warned by doctor)....due to stress of putting her family first vs. herself, adjustments for a long time living in a English speaking society, etc. The end result (though they have lost 1 daughter), is 5 adult children who have no cardiovascular problems, arthritis yet. We range from 45-55 yrs.

True after leaving parents and forging our own lives, living in our own homes, we eat whatever we felt like. But seems we can't shake off completely, what my mother gave to us...a very long lasting legacy of few healthy family dishes.

For certain, we are so grateful we don't have to tell our elderly parents, now with a dying father, how to eat healthy, etc.

[PamNY]

I was just being honest. I know people will disagree with what I said, but all of this discussion is nothing compared to what I hear being spoken in real life. Let's face it, people are judged all of the time on physical appearance. You may disagree with this, but it happens all the time in the business world.

Of course judging people based on appearance is common. It's also common for cyclists to go the wrong way on a one way street while using a cellphone -- doesn't mean it's a good idea.

What I react to -- and I'm not saying it's relevant in this case -- is discussions that seem pointless and gratuitous. Very often a conversation about poor Sally and her weight problem simply provides an opportunity for those discussing Sally to pat themselves on the back for being superior to Sally. It's a case of building oneself up by putting other people down. For some people, this is a big part of their social behavior and a way of connecting with others.

When I was younger I enjoyed responding to older relatives with wide-eyed innocence and the question: "Why are you so interested in Sarah's weight?" Some were flustered, which I loved; others would claim to be "concerned." Well -- maybe they're concerned, maybe they're just gossiping due to their own insecurity and lack of social skills. When I was lucky, I could shift the conversation to something interesting or positive about Sarah -- and more often than not the "concerned" person had no idea what I was talking about because they had no real interest in getting to know her. They just wanted to bash her.

I've outgrown that approach, of course, but in an extreme case I might state that a conversation makes me uncomfortable, and if it's really extreme I might explain why.

[shootingstar]

Well, we have relatives who have flat out commented upon meeting others they haven't seen for awhile: "How pudgy you are, etc.". What also flabbergasted us, the younger generation, were questions on our salaries. Which I sidestepped by saying "I make enough money." Thankfully that type of stuff is less and less, as some relatives become more assimilated /acculturated and focused more about their own concerns rather than other people's.

I give the example of my (baby) sister who may defy the wonderful slim image of doctor walking their talk, when she advises patients of better habits, that it is for her from the position not only as part of her job as a physician, but also now with experience as a parent (with real challenge of feeding her young children healthy foods. She doesn't have a nanny to help.) and finally as a daughter who grew up on long term benefit of certain food choices. So an advocate for healthy living, may not appear visually to some people what they might assume.

[Crankin]

Pam, I also have ways of confronting people in what I consider to be judgmental conversations. I really don't have to use them much, anymore, but my one friend, who I have described on this forum as "crazy," once said something so offensive to my DH that I almost went nuts. She has no filter on what comes out of her mouth, and I know I should take that into consideration, but she told my DH that the argyle sweater with a V neck he was wearing looked "gay." Now, this is a person who says she's so welcoming to all people, if you get my drift. I said to her, "Would you tell someone that his/her clothes looked "Jewish?" Let's just say, I made my point. Of course, she would say now, that she never said it, but she did.
Then, 2 years ago my DIL told me that at a party at our house, this woman came up to her and said, "You know, you'll never be able to have children and work." My DIL was really upset, and only told me months later. I know this person said it, because *she* didn't work and she feels pretty bad about herself, talking about the career she had 25 years ago. I looked point blank at my son (we were out for brunch she this was revealed) and asked, "Are you f*cked up because I worked?" He laughed and said "Of course not."

[Blueberry]

I have met Blueberry in person and I can attest that she is beautiful inside and out. Crankin and Veronica, I hope you get to have the same honor to meet her as I have. (BTW, Blueberry, next time I'm in town, we should go over the new bike bridge!)

What a lovely compliment! Thank you:)

And yes - I would love to go over the new bike bridge next time you're around!

[salsabike]

Here is a most interesting TED talk, 12 minutes, on dieting and weight loss/gain by neuroscientist Sandra Aamodt. Well worth watching and learning what science currently says about this.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sandra_aamodt_why_dieting_doesn_t_usually_work

[PamNY]

Salsa, thanks for posting that excellent source of information. I wish everyone could see this (especially young women and girls). I was curious and googled Sandra Aamodt. She also has a blog which covers this important topic:

http://www.sandraaamodt.com/

[Veronica]

I haven't read all the articles, but this struck me

Scientists don’t yet know which environmental changes are most important for the increase in obesity. Candidates include processed foods, antibiotics, stress, sleep loss, prescription drugs, reduced exercise, and decreased cigarette smoking, among others. Whatever has changed over the past 50 years, it probably isn’t our collective willpower.

I'm going with reduced exercise as the biggest culprit. Again, I only have anecdotal data. In 2011, I weighed 10 pounds less than I do now but I was doing so much cardio a month - to the tune of 7,000 calories more a month in cardio. I keep records, I know is quite similar, maybe even better now. I was training for HIM, so all that cardio had a point and I'm not advocating that anyone do that much. But when I ask my students how much exercise they get, it's often not very much, only what they do in PE class at school. I've noticed over the years that no one teases the "fat kid" anymore because there are so many of them.

And as to why we never chide people for having to wear glasses, but we do for their weight... I believe it is because there are more perceived health risks to being overweight than wearing glasses.

Veronica

[shootingstar]

I like the article title alone the best: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health-advisor/aim-for-the-healthiest-life-you-can-enjoy-not-just-tolerate/article19976430/ Title is: Aim for the healthiest life you can enjoy, not just tolerate.

I actually don't know how to describe my "diet". It's actually cuisine...60% Asian in cooking techniques and type of dishes. Stuff outside of restaurants and sticking to least amount of processed veggies, fruits, meats on the traditional side, minus white rice for me, has been the answer for myself. Of course, I would be a fool not to partake in restaurant meals with friends and family.

Food is actually a very strong cultural and family connection for me. I've lost a lot of Chinese speaking fluency. When my parents die, I will probably lose the fluency even more. (And don't kid me....my Chinese-Canadian friends are like me, more fluent in English than Chinese. So forget about pretending on language retention. Assimilation is super real...for many of us.)

So cooking Chinese is for me..in the end, will be the only tangible thing left for me, in cultural legacy from my family roots. (Other than how I look physically via genetics. I don't want to change it with surgery.) I don't think of food in terms of Weight Watchers "points", but just observe how much salt, sugar and oils/fats there may be in a dish. Do I think about calories? Honest...not really. I tend to eat intuitively and feel shitty if I haven't eaten veggie and fruit for 1-2 consecutive days.

[OakLeaf]

There have been a lot of things I've thought about posting in this thread while I was on limited internet access, but here are two of the most appropriate things I've ever seen.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=699108843490838

... and regarding the correlation between weight and health:

http://www.tylervigen.com (with the exception of certain joint issues, it's actually fairly well established that if there's a causal relationship at all, it's that health problems cause weight gain and not vice versa)

[Veronica]

So why is that my doctor tells me nearly every time visit her - once a year - that I should lose weight? My BMI is slightly high, even though my BF is 20%. What about weight and high blood pressure? It's just luck that I'm the fittest one in my family and I don't have it? Oddly, when my sister had tongue cancer and could not eat anything but Ensure for a year, she lost almost 100 pounds and was able to go off her blood pressure meds. She's since put back on a good chunk of that and had to resume taking them.

And yes there are lots of videos of not skinny people doing lots of interesting things. Her upside down split is impressive! I think being sedentary is not a good thing.

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

If your doctor is telling you to lose weight when your BF is 20% (I would've actually guessed lower from your photos) I'd get a new doctor. Unless she's actually telling you to lose muscle, which would be medically supported, but in that case you're as noncompliant as anyone. http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/30/6/1511.full

But to stay on topic, your health is your doctor's business. Using health as a pretext to body shame peers is not anyone's business. Do we all do it inside our own heads? Probably, just like the saying goes we're all a little bit racist. It's what we say out loud and how hard we work not to express those inner prejudices that counts.

[Veronica]

Using health as a pretext to body shame peers is not anyone's business. Do we all do it inside our own heads? Probably, just like the saying goes we're all a little bit racist. It's what we say out loud and how hard we work not to express those inner prejudices that counts.

That's something I can agree with! I keep looking at this issue from a teaching perspective. We have some health info on our kids. I know none of mine last year had listed any issues that would cause weight gain. That doesn't mean they didn't have those issues. Ten year olds who are 5 feet tall should not weigh 170 pounds, but I had at least three who weighed that or more. I receive their PE scores for state testing, so I'm not guessing at weight. Naturally, I would never shame them, but I do want to educate them because it's my job. The best snack is NOT that bag of cheetos or those 4 cookies! I approach it as what's going to help them learn between recess and lunch and talk about the chemistry, in 5th grade terms
.
I don't carry my weight in my upper body. Hence not a lot of booty pictures! :p or legs...

Veronica

[malkin]

And as to why we never chide people for having to wear glasses, but we do for their weight... I believe it is because there are more perceived health risks to being overweight than wearing glasses.


I think it is because we who make these judgements view weight as something that can be controlled while eyesight isn't viewed that way. Mental illness is another area where we, the members of the judging society, believe that sufferers should just "buck up" and stop being like that.

[Veronica]

Mental illness is another area where we, the members of the judging society, believe that sufferers should just "buck up" and stop being like that.

It's funny, I use to think that. In my egocentricity (in my 20s mind you!), I assumed that if I didn't need "help" given my horrendous childhood, no one did. People were just being wimpy. As my horizons broadened, I learned that there's a lot more that goes on in the brain and contributes to mental health besides having an abusive childhood! I have often wished that I could bottle my resiliency and hand it on to some of my students.

Veronica

[malkin]

Sign me up for a big bottle of your resiliency potion when you get it worked out, ok?
Better yet, I'd sign up for a weekly home delivery like the milkman used to bring!

[salsabike]

Malkin, given your comment above, I thought you might find this interesting. A breathtaking 11-minute TED talk from 19-year-old comic Kevin Breel about what it's like to live with depression--not something very responsive to the "buck up" approach to mental health. http://video-subtitle.tedcdn.com/talk/podcast/2013X/None/KevinBreel_2013X-480p-en.mp4

I have read some articles lately about mental health programs that are specifically designed to teach people ongoing coping skills directly related to their mental health symptoms, and some of that sounds very promising.

[Aromig]

I want some of Veronica's bottled resiliency too! Just reading some of your day to day struggles in your job makes me realize my hard clients aren't nearly as hard!

I post every so often, but I read here a lot. This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read. I'm overweight. When I work really really really hard I can lose weight, but I'll likely never be skinny. I am very active, and can do nearly any physical activity I want to. To me, that's what is important -- functional fitness. I can't say much though, because I do love drinking beers after work with my colleagues and I like cheese. It's funny -- for the most part I eat healthy but I feel like I need to apologize for that one cheese and fruit tray we might order once a month because I am overweight.

I know that a lot of health issues are linked with obesity, at least sortof. Most research shows that those health issues are linked more to activity level than weight, but then again weight sometimes has some correlation to activity as well (although its not perfectly correlated in everyone).

I am involved in management of the small business with which I am affiliated and we're always making decisions about how to impact our healthcare costs. Last year we contemplated increasing the percentage of premiums employees paid if (1) they smoked and (2) they were obese according to BMI. The argument was that obesity increases health costs so those who incur the most costs should pay the most. I was horrified -- I really don't have many health issues (well, unless you count some physical therapy from accidents from being active) so it isn't an exact correlation. I know several very thin people at our work that aren't active at all and eat all of the same things I do but their BMI isn't in the obese or overweight range and they have severe health issues. At this time we haven't increased premiums based upon BMI, and we are working to get people more active.

Since I am overweight, people are surprised to learn that I bike and/or run an average of 9-10 hours each week (in a recent work contest to encourage people to increase their activity levels -- it turns out I'm one of the most active). It's funny that the people at work who are closest to me (and know how active I am) are surprised when I say things like "I'd have to pay extra premium if we institute that policy" because once they KNOW me, they don't see me as overweight anymore, in part because I think they are seeing me with their heart rather than with their eyes.

So when I read the opening post to this thread, I read a judgmental tone. Then again, I probably brought my own baggage and defensiveness, because I do know that we judge people by what we see with the preconceived notions about overweight means. I agree that weight does bear some relationship to activity and/or diet -- but I also know that its just a relationship, its not a perfect correlation and depending on which side of the scale you fall on it might mean something different to you.

I've babbled a bit, but I guess I really just wanted to say that I love where this thread went. You women are amazing, and understanding, and critical-thinking and smart and I'm looking forward to where this thread goes on mental health (because I think the stigmatism for mental health issues is similar and we're just now figuring out that its not as simple as we think and that until you've walked a mile in someone's shoes you just might not know what its like).

Amy

[malkin]

...for the most part I eat healthy but I feel like I need to apologize for that one cheese and fruit tray we might order once a month because I am overweight...


Cheese and fruit?
Really?

[OakLeaf]

... which is exactly what she means about the way fat or even less-than-thin people are publicly judged in our culture. Hopefully Aromig doesn't beat herself up for eating a nice plate of cheese and fruit, but odds are that between the store and her house, some total stranger will be cutting their eyes at her or even, as Blueberry described, making comments to her about sugar and fat. That's why this stuff makes me so angry.

[DebSP]

There are people that watch and judge everything. I went through a period where I was "eating clean" and if I attended a function with food that did not offer anything I wanted to eat, some people would make comments about the fact that I chose not to eat anything. "Oh you can afford to eat a few treats" was the most common. Not because I was thin, but I may have been thinner than some people attending(I have not been thin in my adult life) Short of telling the whole life story about working hard to lose about 40 lbs. and being a garbage eater most of my life and how I was working at changing that etc. I got eye rolls, and "oh it won't hurt you' etc.etc. I hated having to defend my choices so I can understand how anyone would feel when comments are made that imply a judgment of any kind. And I never criticized the foods offered. Or told anyone that they were making a mistake eating them. I usually just tried to politely refuse. No thanks, I just ate or some such thing if I could. (Hard to do while dh is making himself a plate.) Best to always keep your thoughts to yourself unless asked specifically, even when intentions are good. Believe me I have a mothering personality. I had a mom who passed away to early from heart disease and my dad had a stroke in his 60 's. I would like to think that I could help some one avoid that but I know how hard it is to change habits. I quit smoking completely only recently. But you know the saying " the road to he!! is paved with good intentions".

[rebeccaC]

There are people that watch and judge everything. .

I think judging is a tendency we all have, but I think understanding and aknowledging when we do it and seeing it as possibly harmful to us is also important. The anger, frustration, complaining, gossiping and/or dismissiveness etc. that can come from judging others certainly won’t make me a better person. I try to go to a place of acceptance, curiosity and empathy in helping someone rather than where I go when judging them.

I fail. I can feel bad, untrusting of myself and comfort myself with a quart of chocolate ice cream at times. So I’m not superior to others having problems even if I think I am. I see it as me just being self centered when focusing on how much better I am than someone else or how my frustration is more important than someone’s pain, depression, health problems etc.

[malkin]

Congratulations on quitting smoking!

I'm sorry. My post wasn't clear at all. I meant to indicate that I was surprised that anyone would think there was anything bad about cheese and fruit, not that I was shocked that someone would eat and enjoy it.
I MEANT: Cheese and fruit, what's wrong with that?
I DID NOT MEAN: Cheese and fruit! OMG!! How could you possibly even consider eating that?!

Seriously, I don't know what's wrong with cheese and fruit, unless a person is lactose intolerant, or allergic to strawberries, or just doesn't like cheese and fruit or something like that.

[OakLeaf]

No, I knew exactly what you meant. Sorry if my post came out wrong!

[thekarens]

Congratulations on quitting smoking!

I'm sorry. My post wasn't clear at all. I meant to indicate that I was surprised that anyone would think there was anything bad about cheese and fruit, not that I was shocked that someone would eat and enjoy it.
I MEANT: Cheese and fruit, what's wrong with that?
I DID NOT MEAN: Cheese and fruit! OMG!! How could you possibly even consider eating that?!

Seriously, I don't know what's wrong with cheese and fruit, unless a person is lactose intolerant, or allergic to strawberries, or just doesn't like cheese and fruit or something like that.

Actually cheese and fruit can be bad. Fruit is high in sugar and cheese can be high in calories. I know the doctor told my neighbor to stop giving her kids fruit or limit it due to weight problems.

Ideally a diet would be high in veggies greens and whole grains and moderate in fruit meat and dairy.

And no, I'm not judging because Lord knows I have no room to talk.

[Crankin]

I've had experiences similar to DebSP's. People seem to think it's quite ok to comment when I choose not to eat cake or candy at work or when I eat a food that might be considered "different." It doesn't happen where I work now, and they don't make comments either, when I walk in wearing my bike clothes. Only praise.
I guess what I don't get, is how people think it's ok to *say* something in these situations. I always told my kids, "You can think it, don't say it."

[Aromig]

I meant the cheese more than fruit, because let's face it, if you're indulging, who is happy with the serving size of just one ounce. More like having three or 4 different cheeses at one ounce each. from another funny judgmental perspective, on the times I've taken my assistant out she will be judgmental about that same fruit and cheese tray -- but because its very expensive (not because of its dietary makeup). But I guess the point is taken -- there are lots of things to be judgmental about (including towards thin people) so maybe its best just to keep our comments to ourselves. Wouldn't the world be so much better! (FYI, that's the conversation I had with my 13 year old yesterday at lunch. Too bad more mothers don't have that conversation).

[PamNY]

But I guess the point is taken -- there are lots of things to be judgmental about (including towards thin people) so maybe its best just to keep our comments to ourselves. Wouldn't the world be so much better! (FYI, that's the conversation I had with my 13 year old yesterday at lunch. Too bad more mothers don't have that conversation).

My mother was good at that conversation -- and I agree -- it's a conversation that parents should have.

Here's an interesting article from Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louise-green/fit-and-fat-what-an-athlete-looks-like_b_5678917.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063) about larger athletes.

[Blueberry]

Here's an interesting article from Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louise-green/fit-and-fat-what-an-athlete-looks-like_b_5678917.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063) about larger athletes.

Thanks for posting that, PamNY! It articulated the point I was trying to make much better than I could have.

[OakLeaf]

Thanks, Pam, that's a great article.

[PamNY]

I read the comments on the Huffpo article I posted above. Someone asks where plus-size athletes can find clothing. The answer? Team Estrogen! How cool is that?

[Blueberry]

I read the comments on the Huffpo article I posted above. Someone asks where plus-size athletes can find clothing. The answer? Team Estrogen! How cool is that?

That is amazing!!

Things are much better than they used to be - with TE leading the way! The only major hole I see, though, is rain gear. I'm looking for that (for my commute) and coming up short.

[salsabike]

Here's an interesting article from Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louise-green/fit-and-fat-what-an-athlete-looks-like_b_5678917.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063) about larger athletes.

That is a GREAT article!

[MarieV]

Well, I just spent the last hour or so reading through this entire thread. First, let me say how wonderful it is to be part of a community where people can voice their opinions but respectfully disagree, and hopefully, we can all learn from one another.

I agree with Amy that we all probably bring our "own baggage and defensiveness" to these discussions, but that being said, I don't think Jean (shootingstar) was being overly judgmental or condescending in her original post. Maybe that's because I come from a judgmental Asian family, so I don't even notice it, but I think she really just wanted to know what to make of her friend not wanting to shop at the farmers market when she buys organic at the store. From my own personal experience, I feel lucky that I can get amazingly fresh eggs, produce, fish, meat, etc., year round at our local farmers markets here in Seattle. However, if I ever took my very traditional, conservative Filipino family (who live in San Diego) to the farmers market, they would ask me why I don't just go to the grocery store. They would think there's something sketchy about buying food from these "random people" in the street, as if the "clean" and packaged food at the grocery store is guaranteed to be safe and better for you. Of course, once you have fresh produce from the farmers market, it's hard to buy grocery store produce. Once I started growing my own heirloom tomatoes, they had such amazing flavor compared to totally tasteless store-bought and restaurant tomatoes, I can't even bring myself to eat tomatoes other than what I grow.

And if Jean's friend has shown her literature about detox diets, then she probably also expressed interest in losing weight. I have a friend who was advised by her naturopath (who is also mine) to go on a detox diet because of severe allergies, digestion and iron absorption issues, exhaustion, etc. The naturopath walked her through what the detox would entail, essentially a special liquid diet and fasting for a week to clear her system of toxins and allergens, which were taxing her immune system. Detox diets aren't weight-loss alternatives; they're usually fasting regimens to "reboot" your body. And the average person may not be able to work and carry out his/her regular day-to-day activities when completing a real detox diet. Jean, if your friend really wants to try a detox diet, she should work with a naturopath or an informed medical professional who can really explain the process to her.

And if Jean's friend goes out to eat a lot and she mostly prefers greasy pizza and Chinese food, then it is a problem. We've all succumbed to "bad food" cravings and it's totally normal to want that burger, pizza, ice cream, etc., once in a while, but most of us are old enough to know there's payback if that's all you eat day in and day out. Yes, it's usually cheaper and much better to shop for fresh food and cook most of your meals, and as a teacher, I love having summers off when I can do just that. But when the school year starts, DH and I both work too much, and I always have a stack of lab reports to grade, we usually don't have the energy to make our own meals more than a few times a week. We definitely go out to eat and get prepared meals more often than we should, but we still try to make healthy choices. Jean, I think it's great that you invite your friend over and cook her homemade meals, and she probably loves that--I know I do when we have friends invite us over for dinner. I would keep doing that and maybe even invite her to cook with you or hang out with you when you're cooking. One of my friends is an amazing cook, and when I watch her cook, I'm always surprised how easy some of her dishes are to prepare when they taste so incredible. If she shows no interest in cooking, are there restaurants you can go to with her where they have really flavorful and healthier food? Maybe she's stuck in a rut but possibly open to new experiences, including eating healthier food.

And I would invite her to go on more bike rides with you. If she golfs and kayaks, then she's probably open to cycling more. She won't be as strong or as fast as you at the start, but she'll get stronger. Soon the two of you will be able to go on longer rides together, so you can hang out while being more active.

I don't know if I agree that it's always best to bite your tongue and never express an opinion your friend might construe as judgmental. I guess it depends on the kind of friendship you have, whether you and your friend hate confrontation, or if you both like to argue and won't be offended by such an exchange. My family has always been melodramatic and confrontational. Even now whenever we all get together, there's always a lot of yelling and crying over the most trivial things, then it always blows over and we're all good. My closest friendships are with women with whom I usually have a lot in common and who help me gain insight about myself and other people, but we can still argue and trust each other enough to know one of us may criticize with the intent to help, not to attack or hurt, the other person. In contrast, friendships often didn't last when we had little in common, felt like we always had to hold back because the other person was thin-skinned, or neither of us cared enough to address any substantive issues that might lead to an uncomfortable confrontation.

Veronica, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with your family. Of course, we all want our family and friends to be healthy and happy. It's always heartbreaking to watch them make poor diet and lifestyle choices that jeopardize their health and possibly their life. Of course, you cannot change someone who does not want to change, but we all want to believe if we care enough and nag them enough, we can convince them to make healthier choices, so they can be with us for as long as possible.

[lph]

Since detox diets were mentioned: I may be opening a can of worms here, but I have to mention that the only thing I've ever read about detox diets, by sources not about to make money on them, is that they don't work. There is no measurable difference in toxins in the bodywork after a week long fast or detox diet. That's not to say a healthy diet won't gradually give you less toxins, but there's no way of jump starting the process. At best it has a psychological effect, as a transition to a better diet.

[lph]

Body, not bodywork B-)

[shootingstar]

I agree with Amy that we all probably bring our "own baggage and defensiveness" to these discussions, but that being said, I don't think Jean (shootingstar) was being overly judgmental or condescending in her original post. Maybe that's because I come from a judgmental Asian family, so I don't even notice it, but I think she really just wanted to know what to make of her friend not wanting to shop at the farmers market when she buys organic at the store. From my own personal experience, I feel lucky that I can get amazingly fresh eggs, produce, fish, meat, etc., year round at our local farmers markets here in Seattle. However, if I ever took my very traditional, conservative Filipino family (who live in San Diego) to the farmers market, they would ask me why I don't just go to the grocery store. They would think there's something sketchy about buying food from these "random people" in the street, as if the "clean" and packaged food at the grocery store is guaranteed to be safe and better for you. Of course, once you have fresh produce from the farmers market, it's hard to buy grocery store produce. Once I started growing my own heirloom tomatoes, they had such amazing flavor compared to totally tasteless store-bought and restaurant tomatoes, I can't even bring myself to eat tomatoes other than what I grow.

............. Jean, if your friend really wants to try a detox diet, she should work with a naturopath or an informed medical professional who can really explain the process to her.

..............................................

And I would invite her to go on more bike rides with you. If she golfs and kayaks, then she's probably open to cycling more. She won't be as strong or as fast as you at the start, but she'll get stronger. Soon the two of you will be able to go on longer rides together, so you can hang out while being more active.

I don't know if I agree that it's always best to bite your tongue and never express an opinion your friend might construe as judgmental. I guess it depends on the kind of friendship you have, whether you and your friend hate confrontation, or if you both like to argue and won't be offended by such an exchange. My family has always been melodramatic and confrontational. Even now whenever we all get together, there's always a lot of yelling and crying over the most trivial things, then it always blows over and we're all good. My closest friendships are with women with whom I usually have a lot in common and who help me gain insight about myself and other people, but we can still argue and trust each other enough to know one of us may criticize with the intent to help, not to attack or hurt, the other person. In contrast, friendships often didn't last when we had little in common, felt like we always had to hold back because the other person was thin-skinned, or neither of us cared enough to address any substantive issues that might lead to an uncomfortable confrontation.

Veronica, thanks so much for sharing your experiences with your family. Of course, we all want our family and friends to be healthy and happy. It's always heartbreaking to watch them make poor diet and lifestyle choices that jeopardize their health and possibly their life. Of course, you cannot change someone who does not want to change, but we all want to believe if we care enough and nag them enough, we can convince them to make healthier choices, so they can be with us for as long as possible.

I'm here in Toronto visiting family right now. Myself and 4 siblings are super grateful my mother has been cooking healthy Chinese dishes for..the past 40 years (I do have memories of eating Chinese version of pork fat cracklings. :D) because my dying father (on last ditch effort of chemotherapy which is weakening him after all his cancer) continues to need this. If this is judgemental of me as their eldest daughter: I went to visit my parents this past wk. and ate the same food as my father....and could see nothing has changed: it is my mother's healthy cooking, thank god. Thank god we don't have to tell our elderly parents how to cook healthy, when they have other issues to handle as each month grows more and more difficult.

I saw a sister whom I haven't seen for a year in person. We went to museum, dinner. I noticed she had been wearing lovely voluminous chiffon tops and another top underneath. Then I asked her in neutral tones: Are you getting a little tummy? The rest of her body is thin but she is getting a sizeable belly that she is wearing these tops to mask it. Her belly /tummy is extending well over 8 inches out. She told me her fibroids returned again. They have been growing for the past 3 years but this is the first time I knew of this 2nd larger growth. She had one large one removed 25 years ago. Anyway, her gynaecologist really wants her to have surgery. She already had D & C 8 years ago...which I had no idea before. I simply said that these larger fibroids might be crowding some other organs. She knows that and has been trying to figure out the right "time". She's trying to put it off...until menopause. But I told her it could 5-10 yrs. off since her periods are still strong. Then I changed the subject after I told her that I was in menopause but it took a few years....

She is my sister --2 yrs. younger than I. She is the natural comic/clown sibling.

Marie, I have siblings who do really we tell each other off when we need to, but lately we're more civilized. I guess it's age. :) But I have also lost 1 sister already and keeping our mouths shut /wondering what on earth is going on without saying anything has proven to be a mistake/costly for a loved one. She died by suicide and none of us knew how deeply depressed /how long it went on. As a result of her death, amongst siblings we are more vigilant about each other.

My family is similar, sort of, I guess like yours. We have our dysfunctions and better/good times too. I feel incredibly lucky nevertheless to have siblings who all want to get together, party and talk up. I know I could entrust any of them to be my executors. Not all families are like this.

My friend continues to support some of the city's bike rides by sweeping, etc. We've done some mini rides since then. I don't plan to suggest that she talk to a doctor about detox /fasting unless she mentions it again. But it would only be a suggestion. She herself comes from a large (6 siblings) family like myself. Sometimes we eat at my place, other times at restaurants. I let her recommend places to eat because she seems to know of a lot more places to eat out. My home-cooked meals are partially my voluntary payback to her...because she drives a car for us when we eat out (in some cases far out in the suburbs from my place) and to me, it costs drive around, etc.

[MarieV]

Jean, I'm so sorry to hear about you losing your sister. That must have been so devastating for you and your family, especially because you sound like you're all close. After such a loss, it's always natural for all of us to believe or hope that we could have done something to help or prevent it if only we'd known. It totally makes sense that after that you're all more vigilant with one another, even if the other person may perceive it as intrusive.

The situation with your younger sister sounds difficult. If her fibroids have grown so large that her gynecologist is recommending surgery, what kind of surgery is being recommending (e.g. hysterectomy)? It sounds like she's not ready for major surgery, so can she ask her gynecologist about other options (e.g. medication to try to reduce the fibroids in the meantime)? Are the fibroids so large that they cannot be removed using non-invasive or minimally invasive surgery?

Here are some links on uterine fibroids:

Mayo Clinic website: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/uterine-fibroids/basics/definition/con-20037901?p=1

Office on Women's Health, US Dept. of Health and Human Services: http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/uterine-fibroids.html

I have similar issues with my parents. My dad just turned 80, and in addition to his Type 2 diabetes for the past two decades he's had knee pain because of osteoarthritis, so he's had difficulty walking for the last decade. His doctor recommended he get arthroscopic surgery to address the condition, or at least lose weight or get PT, but he refuses to do anything and just keeps saying he's lived a long life already. It's so frustrating!

My mom has been dealing with hypohidrosis (inability to sweat) for the past two years, and it's probably caused by an interaction between the dozen or so medications she takes for hypertension. I know she can't stop taking her hypertension medication because her blood pressure shoots to dangerously high levels, but I don't understand why the doctors can't figure out and address her hypohidrosis, which could lead to heat exhaustion or heat stroke. Since she lives in San Diego where it's almost always warm, I told her to keep a small spray bottle with water in her purse and spritz herself whenever she feels warm, so she doesn't overheat since her doctors didn't even bother to advise her on how to deal with her condition. And she goes to UCSD Medical Center for care, so you'd think they would know what they're doing.

Jean, perhaps you can do some research on your sister's condition and forward it to her, then just keep nagging her, maybe in a reassuring way. She probably will think you're meddling, but she knows you care, and maybe she'll realize it's for her own good and you'll convince her to do something about her fibroids.

[shootingstar]

Sister with fibroids has had to deal with another scary health issue which we know for past 12 months, is the loss of hearing in 1 ear permanently. After seeing some specialists, still don't know reason. She also has tinitus..for last 5 years. She lives in her own home solo. Would be worth asking later about invasive vs.non-invasive treatment that she has been told so far. But I believe the gynecologist has been particularily insistent that she get this surgery.

If I hadn't even asked her, I wouldn't have known about this major fibroids problem until much later. I live 4,000 km. away so it's easy for family members to withhold any info. about major health problems...for several years. Honest, there's no other way I could have asked the "right" question to have her open up about another major health problem that has been stressing her out.

In fact, I believe she maybe postponing her surgery because she wants to be mobile to check in my parents and help out (siblings rotate /take turns each day after they each finish their day jobs.). I know my parents, they certainly would rain down on her/pester her a lot when /if they do find out about her fibroids diagnosis for major surgery. They worry for any of their children who live alone (which is not all of us).

Hope your parents try to accept physicians' instructions so they don't endanger themselves further.