An Annoyance

[Veronica]

I was suppose to start my workout today with trying to hold a plank for 5 minutes. We forgot until half way through my workout - after doing 3 sets of twenty leg pull ins with a push up hands on the Bosu feet in the TRX straps, lat pull downs, pull ups with the TRX, tricep and bicep work... This other woman talked me into doing it with her anyway. At three minutes in, I could feel my form starting to go - my back was caving and I stopped. The other woman continued, but her form was not good - caving back or butt up in the air. But hey - she's sticking it out. This third woman called me a quitter and that annoys me. Could I have gone another two minutes with proper form - no way! Could I have done it with my butt up, or my back curved - yeah. But I am not going to call it a five minute plank if I cheat. I didn't want to make the woman doing it with me feel badly, so I didn't say anything. But I really wanted to say something nasty to the other woman. Seriously, a three minute proper plank hold in the middle of a tough workout and I'm a quitter?!

Veronica

[marni]

my sympathy. Know in peace that you are a better evaluator of being a quitter than anyone else. Sometimes an attack is a premptive strike against feeling inadequate in one self.

[Catrin]

A 3 minute proper plank is awesome, and in the middle of the workout nonetheless! It is indeed hard to know when it is best to say something or not. Perhaps she didn't realize her form was so bad? Regardless, Marni made a good point.

[malkin]

Someone called V a quitter?!

I can think of some words to describe that person!!

[Pax]

She sounds like my old drill instructor, sure don't need that from anyone else, I'd be ticked too.

[Kathi]

I'm impressed. Due to recurrent SI Joint issues which PT didn't resolve I had my movement tested. Mobility and stability were good but core stability was downfall. As a result planks are part of my workout. They consist of 3 sets of 3 reps for a total of 3 min. Each rep is 15 sec. When I started 2 weeks ago I could barely hold the 15 sec. The killer ones though are the diagonal planks. I'm holding off on those because I don't have the strength yet to raise one leg, let alone an arm and leg. My directions specifically tell me what to avoid which indicate a loss of form.

An amazing benefit of gaining core stability is how it has impacted my skiing. I feel like I'm wearing a corset, I'm able to "brace" my middle, which results in better movement, especially at speed or in bumps.

I had a discussion with my PT about how trainers disregard good form while training clients. It may not show up immediately but somewhere down the road it will and the clients end up having to visit a person like him. Poor form is the biggest complaint of the bloggers on the Strength and Conditioning pages that I read. Even poor form on the bicycle can lead to issues.

Sounds like your friend watches "the Biggest Loser" to much and needs to get realistic about training.

[Veronica]

I am pretty particular about doing things correctly. At 47, things don't heal as quickly as they use to. :D

Our trainer did tell the woman to correct her position a couple of times in the last two minutes.

Veronica

[Catrin]

Veronica, you rock and I am still amazed that someone would call YOU a quitter! And yes, at 47 (and 54), things do take longer to heal ;)

At my gym all of the staff focuses carefully on form, but there is something in human nature that makes it easy for some individuals to focus more on the time they have in which to do a movement rather than the movement itself. It becomes more about the time than anything else, and it is a trap.

For me the hardest thing is to admit to myself that there are certain movements I cannot do, and a couple I need to modify due to my mechanical shoulder problem - which is an ego-trap. My coach reminds me fast when I try to push through things I shouldn't, for which I am very thankful. For example, I can easily do a 6-7 minute strict, proper plank before anything starts bothering me, but more dynamic types of plank are a problem as the shoulder is less stable in those positions (like a side plank with single arm row). At least I DO stop when things start to hurt these days :rolleyes:

[jobob]

Someone called V a quitter?!

I can think of some words to describe that person!!

Foolish. ;) :D

[Veronica]

We did the planks again today. There were six of us working out and we held the first one for five minutes. But the conversation beforehand was interesting. Since it was billed as a "competition" I wanted to know if you were out if you didn't actually hold a plank - you know, flat as a board. And the crowd turned ugly. :mad: I was was told all that matters is "getting through the time however you can." Okay - I stayed flat.

We did another one at the end of our workout. I went three minutes. The two women from Monday's workout went four minutes. But their planks looked more like downward dog for that last minute. I'm going to stick to my guns about doing it correctly, but work on keeping my mouth shut. How they do their workouts is really not my concern. But it's irritating. :rolleyes:

Veronica

[Catrin]

Good for you Veronica about sticking to your guns, in the end our primary competition should be with ourselves. Is this a different instructor than you normally work with? Just curious, and yes, it would be irritating.

[Veronica]

It's my regular trainer. She's acquired a lot more clients and with the holidays they are all trying to fit in workouts. I don't usually see her on Thursday myself.

She did say that we were to do a proper plank. It was the other clients who said it really didn't matter. Part of it is just my personality. I am highly competitive, but I don't mind being "beaten" fairly. The one guy training with us went six minutes on the second set and looked good the entire time.

None of them thought my suggestion of doing squats on the ball instead was a good idea. :D

Veronica

[Catrin]

Well, I would have been irritated myself. It is one thing to be beaten fairly, but to take the time and effort to do something properly and have others working next to you who don't have that same work ethic is frustrating. Especially if we kick our own butts to do things properly. Then again, I am also highly competitive which I am working on. Considering I am surrounded by much younger people with a much longer fitness foundation than I do, and who aren't dealing with permanent neck/shoulder issues...well...the only person I need to be competing with is myself :)

[Kathi]

I wonder if they don't realize what "proper" form is. As a newbie to planks I've been searching for technique on how to do them. There are tons of videos on "how to do a plank". Some lacked basic information. Others gave great tips. All said when you start to lose form, quit. However, most did not specify what that meant. I found a video by a yoga instructor that demonstrated how to find one's most effective hand placement, very helpful. The directions given to me were very specific on what muscles to activate and said to place hands directly under the shoulders. The pilates video was more specific tan that. My PT assumed I knew how to do a side plank. He demonstrated it for me but did not have me do it with him. When I first tried them I wound up hurting my self. Then I found a video of a PT/trainer who was walking a client through a side plank. It was very helpful because it showed common mistakes (my mistakes) and how to correct them. I'm sure my PT would have helped me but I would have lost a week's worth of training.

My expectation when working with a trainer or PT is that they point out where my form is off and work with me until it is corrected. And yes, it is frustrating to put yourself up against others who do things sloppily and think they're stronger or better than you. I ski with friends like this. They have no technique but out weigh me by a lot so they can naturally go faster. I can't keep up unless I just let go and ski like them. I constantly work on my technique so it's frustrating for me to just be sloppy. My one satisfaction is that non groomed terrain (bumps, powder, trees) requires good technique so I handle it much better than they can.

[Catrin]

It is also possible that they THINK they are doing it properly. I've learned the hard way that proprioception can be difficult. When we've always done things incorrectly, even when someone describes proper form it may well feel that we are doing it that way. I've gotten much better at knowing what different body parts are doing when not looking at them, but this fails me when I try to lift overhead - I develop a strong valgus (knee inward collapse) and my feet immediately goes out like duck feet (my body is trying to compensate for my shoulder problems, which is why I am currently not allowed to lift above my shoulders). My point is that my body is doing all of that compensating but it doesn't FEEL like it - thankfully none of these things happen with other types of lifting. Veronica's group-mates may have been convinced that they were doing it properly for it may have felt right to them - just as I had no idea my body was doing all of that.

[OakLeaf]

That may be true for people working on their own, especially in a space without enough mirrors, or with an instructor who gives them only cursory attention, but from V's description, her trainer knows what she is looking at and does appropriate corrections.

That's a lot of why I was getting fed up with group ex even before my injury. In every class the *majority* of people didn't care about their form, and no matter how many times and how many different ways I tried to guide them, they continued to pay very little attention, do the moves in enormously dangerous ways, substitute exercises they obviously learned off TV in the '80s if they didn't like the way I was teaching, and refused to *try* to do things with proper form once they'd decided that doing it wrong "hurts."

Most people just don't care.

/rant

[Crankin]

Oak, I echo your statement. While the instructors at my gym don't do anything egregious, there is not attention paid to people who need to be shown modifications. It gets my blood boiling, because people often end up doing stuff that is either harmful, or not enough. And, there's the thing about warming up and cooling down. At 5:30 AM, everyone keeps to the time schedule, but warm up is often compromised. The spin instructors see the one hour as an hour of spinning. They all go over time, starting the cool down when the class should be over, or say to do it on your own. Yesterday, the instructor (boot camp) said, "I know I should stop at 20 after, but I just can't help myself!" Oy, the class is for the people, not you. What's so hard about keeping to a schedule? I never had any issues with this. But, they get away with it, because as you said, most people don't care!

[Kathi]

The comments on this thread or the reason why, besides a cranky SI joint, I've not jointed a gym and gotten involved in group exercise classes or worked with a trainer. When I did aerobics many years ago and a few spinning classes, the instructors reminded participants to arrive early enough for the warm up and not to leave before the cool down and stressed the importance of both. Occasionally there were late arrivals or early leavers. Sometimes it couldn't be helped and often the instructors were informed as to why. In the weight room and in the aerobic classes good form was stressed. An aerobics instructor once told me that many people don't have a sense of where there body is, i.e. they'll get others space or not know how to move arms and legs and not realize it. We ski with a friend like that. He'll cut too close or almost run into you but doesn't seem to realize it.

From the bloggers I read many people don't have the basic movement patterns to perform an activity successfully and trainers don't have the training to assess what activity is appropriate for a person to be doing. So they use a one size fits all mentality. My latest PT thought lunges and squats were appropriate for me but he kept telling me to keep my hips "square". As much as I focused on squaring my hips it just wasn't happening. When I got tested it turned out that my "trunk stability" is dysfunctional. It means that I have an inability to control my spine when moving. Because my PT didn't look at my movement patterns he didn't spot this. My exercises now consist of planks and half kneeling to restore my trunk stability.

In addition to clients not caring maybe trainers could do more too. This article spells out what trainers need to do to get better responses from their clients. http://breakingmuscle.com/coaching/the-3-pillars-of-coaching-legacy-mastery-and-freedom. If I could find a trainer like this guy I'd hire him in an instant.

I also don't think the majority of people are lazy or uncaring or else they wouldn't show up. They just may not have the passion for using their bodies efficiently and are willing to take the easy way out.

[Catrin]

There are many good trainers and coaches out there, it just takes doing one's homework to find them. Personally I've seen far more improvement working with my strength/conditioning coach than I ever did with physical therapy. That doesn't mean that I am anti-PT, just haven't had much luck with the ones I've worked with in recent years.

[OakLeaf]

Oh, totally agree, which was my point actually. From everything V's said, her trainer is one of the good ones. Which leads to the inescapable conclusion that the person who was dissing her just didn't care to do it right, not that they didn't know how.

[Catrin]

Yes, which brings us back to the original point. The people being trained must care as well as the coach or trainer they are wprking with. Many do, some don't. Still shocked that anyone would call Veronica a quitter!

[Kathi]

I know there are lots of good trainers. Denver is kind of an odd place. The trainers I'd like to work with are either downtown or on the east side. I'm in SW Denver. Until I resolve the SI joint issue I'm reluctant to work with just anyone. Besides, I ski 3-4 x's a week and with traveling between home and condo I'm reluctant to commit to a gym or trainer until I have more time.
I've always trained myself with advice from PT's, trainers and instructors. I went to a wonderful facility in Cincinnati and am disappointed I haven't found anything like that here.
Fortunately, I am committed to the new workouts. I'm expecting them to give me the foundation to move on.

[Veronica]

Oh, totally agree, which was my point actually. From everything V's said, her trainer is one of the good ones. Which leads to the inescapable conclusion that the person who was dissing her just didn't care to do it right, not that they didn't know how.

Yep, for them it was about getting to the time, mo matter what. I think they started off with good form. She's got a picture of us on her website and we all look flat, but when they get tired and the burning kicks in :D instead of staying flat they either get a hike in their butts, or curve their backs. Personally, I tend to curve when I get tired and I can feel it. If I can't stop the curve, I stop the plank.

But, it's their workout.

Veronica