DI2 Depression.

[Wahine]

A friend just bought a new bike with DI2 and I feel like someone has just told me that there is no Santa Clause. I realize that I'm probably over reacting in most people's eyes but the purist in me objects strongly to a motor on a bike. I get it. It's slick, it's the new thing, it's what the pros are using and Shimano has done a hell of a job with it's marketing. But it's still a motor. It still replaces some of the mechanical effort of the rider to make the bike perform and I'm not OK with that. I'm really not.

Go ahead and put a motor on your bike, but don't pretend it's the same as a fully human propelled bike, because it's not.:mad:

What is the world coming to.;)

Rant over, thank you for listening.

[WindingRoad]

I relate Wahine. It seems like its taking away an element of simplicity that I too value in my bikes.

[Owlie]

In some ways, I agree with you.

It's a cool toy, and the engineering is interesting. (That might be because I'm dating an engineer.) The programmable shifting is neat. Would I buy it? No. I can't remember to charge my cell phone. How would I remember to charge my bike? I like the feedback and the feel of mechanical shifters too.

You kids get off my lawn.

[OakLeaf]

The minute they started with indexed shifting, there went the neighborhood.

[Wahine]

The minute they started with indexed shifting, there went the neighborhood.

Hee hee. Well at least index shifting is still a mechanical process without an external power source assist.

[Wahine]

You kids get off my lawn.

LOL! Exactly!!

[Eden]

No. I can't remember to charge my cell phone. How would I remember to charge my bike? I.

yup.... I can't remember to charge my cell phone and my Garmin is always running out of battery life in the middle of a ride..... it would be pretty bad if my shifting ran out of batteries too....

[nuliajuk]

To be fair, it doesn't replace much of the effort. I just don't see the point of it, mainly. It doesn't take that much longer to use a shift lever. I suppose if you're riding the Vuelta or some other major race with extremely fast competitors it makes a difference, but I can't see that it adds much except weight for us average non-racing riders.

I suppose we all have our tipping point when it comes to new technology. Some people think there's no need to put shifters anywhere but on a down-tube, and what do you need clipless pedals for when there are perfectly good toe clips and straps? And some do away with gearing altogether and think a single fixed is all you need. What I find interesting is that the retro purists are most often people who were too young to have ever used their chosen technology when it was new. Riders who are in their 70s embrace brifters and carbon fibre bikes enthusiastically, or at least my husband and his former clubmates do.

[smilingcat]

nahhh its all hype me think.

More expensive thing to buy and more ways to separate you and your money. When index shifting first came out, I turned it off or disabled it. I hate adjusting index shifting. It has to be sooo right or else.

And I guess I wont say anything about an electric assist velomobile. :p

[Wahine]

And I guess I wont say anything about an electric assist velomobile. :p

This is going to seem really weird but I'm actually OK with an electronic assist velomobile. I'm assuming you mean motocycle. They aren't trying to be bicycles.

As for bikes that have motor assist on them to help with hills etc, I'm good with those too. I actually love them they get people out riding that wouldn't otherwise, especially where I live (it's super hilly). It's the only way a lot of mom's can commute whith their kids in a trailer or do the gorceries and I'm all for fewer cars on the road. But again, it's not trying to pretend to be a regular bicycle.

As for DI2 being a trend. I hope so. Being electronic with a battery (which is not environmentally friendly to produce or dispose of) I expect it to stop working or become annoying at some time and I really hope that people don't then just throw it away and replace it with a new set up every 2 years or whenever the new shiny thing comes out. What a waste. This bothers me.

But then, I should recognize that we live in a world where that is the norm. Most people get a new phone every 2 years, TVs, whatever. I'm unusual in how long I hold on to things. Heck, this lap top I'm on is at least 6 years old now.

[kajero]

I am not sure exactly what type of bicycle you are talking about.

My SO has a TREK e-assist bike. It only assists when you pedal it. He is 83 years old and could not possible go riding without the help. We participated in a 25 mile tour fundraiser last week. Even with the e-assist, he had to stop quite a few times to rest. But he was riding.

I guess if I were a nay-sayer to this type of bicycle, he would never go riding (even if he does upset me with his riding habits). MY SO also enjoys riding with a group I go with . . . something that would be impossible without the e-assist. I guess you have to evaluate what the battery powered bicycles are used for and if you can accept that.

I am 20 years younger than my SO so I ride on my own. But maybe one day if it is between riding and no riding. . . .

[ridebikeme]

HA! I love this thread, thanks Wahine! AS a mechanic, I've always wondered why on earth people would spend so much on their shifting... as you said many people can't even remember to charge their cellphone(and I belong to that club)and what happens when you are riding far from home. Will there be a shop close by to help if you have issues? And what if that shop doesn't carry D12?

In addition to my shop, I worked for bike touring companies for 16 years, and we were riding in the "sticks", I was the only support. I'm so thankful that I'm not doing that now only because I wouldn't be carrying D12 parts with me. While the bike companies want us all to continue to spend our money with them, in my mind, there certainly are many items that would be more beneficial to all of us and that would have a bigger impact than "electronic gizmos." Ok, let me go plug in my phone...

[Skippyak]

I want though LOL.

[Owlie]

HA! I love this thread, thanks Wahine! AS a mechanic, I've always wondered why on earth people would spend so much on their shifting... as you said many people can't even remember to charge their cellphone(and I belong to that club)and what happens when you are riding far from home. Will there be a shop close by to help if you have issues? And what if that shop doesn't carry D12?

In addition to my shop, I worked for bike touring companies for 16 years, and we were riding in the "sticks", I was the only support. I'm so thankful that I'm not doing that now only because I wouldn't be carrying D12 parts with me. While the bike companies want us all to continue to spend our money with them, in my mind, there certainly are many items that would be more beneficial to all of us and that would have a bigger impact than "electronic gizmos." Ok, let me go plug in my phone...

I'm not entirely sure how DI2 works, but I imagine there's a whole lot more that can go wrong with it than mechanical shifters, and probably a whole lot more expensive to repair. Certainly more expensive to replace!

I suppose if you're a pro and those milliseconds count, go for it.

[OakLeaf]

In addition to my shop, I worked for bike touring companies for 16 years, and we were riding in the "sticks", I was the only support. I'm so thankful that I'm not doing that now only because I wouldn't be carrying D12 parts with me.

I'm reminded of one of the centuries I did in southeastern Ohio when someone flatted one of his tubular tires.

No chase vehicle with a spare wheel, very obviously. No spare tire. No patch kit, sewing kit or glue. The nearest bike shop of *any* kind was probably 50 rural miles away, and it wouldn't have been the kind of bike shop that would have had tubies in stock anyway. Plus, it was a Sunday. :rolleyes:

Three years later I'm still trying to figure out what the guy was thinking going out on a ride like that with those wheels on. At least with tubies you *have* another pair of wheels with clinchers. Not like swapping out your shifters and derailleurs.

[Jolt]

This is the first I have heard about DI2...sounds like a great example of an answer to a question nobody asked! What is the point of electronic shifting? At least e-assist on a bike can enable somebody to ride who otherwise might not be able to, and that is a good thing. As for expensive new technology that does nothing but complicate what should be simple, phooey.

[ridebikeme]

CAn definietly understand where you are coming from Oakleaf. Years ago, I was riding on sewups and did have a spare with me. Although what I didn't take into account was that it was fall and very cool out. What that means is that I didn't weigh enough to really push on the bike/wheels and get the glue so that it was soft, so I could change my flat. Friction generally allows the glue to become quite soft, but on that cold morning, well that didn't happen... and here was the mechanic walking back to the shop. That was the last time that I ever rode sew ups, perhaps now the glue is a bit better... but I'd rather know that I can get myself home... because now I do live in very rural area.

[pll]

I also find electronic shifting like a little "invasion" of sorts, like I would lose something if I get it. However, I can see it can be helpful if you have hand issues. For example, shifting from the small ring to the big ring I always had difficulty (much improved after I splurged on some exotic Japanese cables, though). Electronic shifting might make that easier for me. Also because of my weak grip, I am keeping an eye on hydraulic brakes for a future bike.

Have you gals taken a look at how DI2 works? It's neat to see both derailleurs adjust at the same time. No more cross-chaining.

<Before you throw tomatoes my way, keep in mind that all of this comes from someone who drives a car with a manual transmission, without automatic locks or windows. And I don't have a smart phone, either.>

[OakLeaf]

I also find electronic shifting like a little "invasion" of sorts, like I would lose something if I get it.

Really, that's exactly how I felt about indexed shifting at first. Not that it stopped me from installing the little washer click-side up when you still had the option of "fretless..."

[Owlie]

I also find electronic shifting like a little "invasion" of sorts, like I would lose something if I get it. However, I can see it can be helpful if you have hand issues. For example, shifting from the small ring to the big ring I always had difficulty (much improved after I splurged on some exotic Japanese cables, though). Electronic shifting might make that easier for me. Also because of my weak grip, I am keeping an eye on hydraulic brakes for a future bike.

Have you gals taken a look at how DI2 works? It's neat to see both derailleurs adjust at the same time. No more cross-chaining.

<Before you throw tomatoes my way, keep in mind that all of this comes from someone who drives a car with a manual transmission, without automatic locks or windows. And I don't have a smart phone, either.>

I totally agree that if you have hand issues (arthritis, etc), electronic shifting is definitely a plus. I think there's a difference between accommodating so that you can ride comfortably and buying it because of purported performance improvement (and because it's a cool new toy). But then, you could say that about nearly anything.

[Skippyak]

I used to only ever drive stick shifts, it is the same thing really, who drives a stick unless you have a performance car anymore? I love auto cars. I get hives when I have to drive my DHs stick shift and I drove stick for longer than I have driven auto. I am waiting for the auto version in bike shifting.

[pll]

I used to only ever drive stick shifts, it is the same thing really, who drives a stick unless you have a performance car anymore? I love auto cars. I get hives when I have to drive my DHs stick shift and I drove stick for longer than I have driven auto. I am waiting for the auto version in bike shifting.

Just in case, mine is not a performance car. I simply like a manual transmission, it's fun to drive. The same car with an automatic transmission is heavier and less responsive.

[OakLeaf]

But I adore the CVT in my Prius... :p

[Wahine]

My SO has a TREK e-assist bike. It only assists when you pedal it. He is 83 years old and could not possible go riding without the help. We participated in a 25 mile tour fundraiser last week. Even with the e-assist, he had to stop quite a few times to rest. But he was riding.


This is exactly what I meant when I said that I didn't have any problem with e-assist bikes when they help people get out that wouldn't otherwise. But your SO wouldn't be allowed to compete in a race with his e-assist bike against other "normal" bikes. It's OK to do what ever the hell you want to do to your bike but if you put a motor on it, no matter how small (IMHO) it is no longer in the same category as a bicycle without a motor of any kind.

This thread is making me think a lot about why I dislike Di2 so much. Introspection is usually a good thing. Beyond my love for simplicity, here's my thought. I've always cheered for the underdog. I've always believed in a level playing field and felt that anyone could win if they put in the effort. Di2 is allowed to compete in the same field as a regular bike but not everyone can afford it. So in a sense, it's an unfair advantage for those that have the finances to purchase it.

This whole episode was brought on for me when a friend purchased a Di2 bike for cyclocross. First off, I think that's crazy. I know how effed up my bike is at the end of cross season when I have to replace cables, housing, derailleurs and drive train. I can't imagine what the mud and yuck is going to do to a Di2 system and they are not cheap to replace. My friend's arguement is that she has Raynaud's syndrome. The cold and the wet affect her hands badly and result in her not being able to shift as well. That's actually a pretty good reason to get Di2. But does it make it fair in competition?

I feel like Di2 is being pushed upon us by Shimano to sell more stuff. I think they bought off the powers that be to allow it at the pro level because what the pros ride sells. I think the industry is extrememly messed up and Di2 is just part of all that. I'm also p!ssed off that the UCI is only allowing UCI certified frames to compete in cyclocross at an international level. But that's a whole nuther rant.

[thekarens]

I guess I don't see the problem. Ultimately the legs determine how fast you are and if someone doesn't like Di2 they shouldn't get it. No one is forced to. Yes, the pros use it, which makes it popular, but that's true of a lot of things in cycling.

[Catrin]

+100 on what Wahine said. It really isn't the same thing as a traditional bicycle, and if someone wants one then that is fine - but it can't and shouldn't be compared with a full person-powered bicycle. I think they are great to help those get out who may not be otherwise able to ride. BTW, I also love a manual transmission - but that isn't related :)

[Crankin]

I kind of agree about the E bikes. Good for people who wouldn't otherwise be out there, and maybe parents lugging kids and groceries up big hills. One day as DH was commuting to work last spring, some guy dressed in street clothes passed him going up a hill. DH sprinted to catch him and the guy told him it was an e bike. Not fair, at all. In this case, it didn't matter, but still. The guy did not have any disabilities, either (he told DH this). Not sure about the DI2. I'll never get them, for sure. At one time, I could have seen DH wanting them, but not now. It does not seem fair, as Wahine says, to allow them in races, where not everyone has this technology. But, I am not sure how much easier it makes the shifting and how that translates to seconds shaved off of race time. I know how important this is, from my son's brief racing career, but again, a lot of people can't afford it.

[pll]

I don't buy the 'it's not fair, not everyone has the technology' argument on DI2. There is LOTS that people don't have (and cannot afford) and is allowed in races on the same footing: lighter bikes, nice carbon wheels, amazing TT bikes, properly fit bikes, components that are higher grade than others. Some even race with powermeters and heart rate monitors, aero skin suits, aero helmets. I won't go on. I don't see a fundamental problem with electronic shifting in this dimension -- the playing field isn't level already. Electronic shifting does not propel the bike and, at the end, a strong rider in a clunker can drop the fanciest equipment ridden by a bad rider.

[nuliajuk]

...Electronic shifting does not propel the bike and, at the end, a strong rider in a clunker can drop the fanciest equipment ridden by a bad rider.
Yup. At the Pan Am games in Winnipeg in 1999, a Cuban rider on an old steel Colnago track bike won the men's kilo on the track. The second place rider was on a state of the art carbon fibre wind-tunnel tested wonder-bike. The rumour was that it had cost his association almost $20000 to develop.

[pll]

At the same time, it is sad when $ buys better results for riders within similar skill levels. I know there was a discussion about not allowing TT bikes in the Nature Valley Grand Prix time trial, but, overall, it was good for smaller teams that cannot afford to travel with at least two bikes per rider (and some teams do not have more than one bike per rider). That's an attempt to level the playing field.

[Wahine]

I don't buy the 'it's not fair, not everyone has the technology' argument on DI2. There is LOTS that people don't have (and cannot afford) and is allowed in races on the same footing: lighter bikes, nice carbon wheels, amazing TT bikes, properly fit bikes, components that are higher grade than others. Some even race with powermeters and heart rate monitors, aero skin suits, aero helmets. I won't go on. I don't see a fundamental problem with electronic shifting in this dimension -- the playing field isn't level already. Electronic shifting does not propel the bike and, at the end, a strong rider in a clunker can drop the fanciest equipment ridden by a bad rider.

All very true. But there is still a supplimental power source that replaces part of the physical effort of effectively operating a bike. No it doesn't propel you forward, but it is part of what allows you to move forward efficiently. I think that actually makes a difference. Having said that, advances in technology like lighter frames, better none electronic shifting, brakes etc don't bother me at all. I'm not trying to claim that my objection to Di2 is fully rational. :p

[Seajay]

the purist in me objects strongly to a motor on a bike. I get it. It's slick, it's the new thing, it's what the pros are using and Shimano has done a hell of a job with it's marketing. But it's still a motor. It still replaces some of the mechanical effort of the rider to make the bike perform and I'm not OK with that. I'm really not.

Go ahead and put a motor on your bike, but don't pretend it's the same as a fully human propelled bike, because it's not.:mad:

What is the world coming to.;)

Rant over, thank you for listening.

Hi Wahine, - et al "purists"
Just to give you a little perspective. I did three upgrades for customers this past summer to Di2. ALL THREE were women with small hands, one with severe arthritis who were really struggling with shifting their road bikes. Two of these customers literally told me they saw the end of their cycling was very near. I feel Di2 gave them a new lease on their enjoyment of cycling.
Sure the "Racer Boys" who run the cycling industry are touting all the "racing performance" of Di2...but performance can be many things to many people.
I'm sure you didn't mean to tell the woman that she is not allowed to enjoy cycling anymore because she has arthritis.
Just a thought.
Seajay

[pll]

That does not bother me. In the early days, people had only one ring and two cogs, and had to get off their bikes to shift to the other cog. Talk about taking some of the effort out of the equation. So, electronic shifting does not bother me at all. It is a continuum of changes along different dimensions. <But having to apply a software patch to my bicycle would be perturbing to me. So much for rationality.>

[rebeccaC]

"Don't upgrade, ride up grades"

Campy 10 index has work well for me for a number of years now so I don't feel any need to change to electronics and I'm not luddite enough to want to deal with the nuances of friction shifting. Electronics can offer something positive in a number of ways for some people and no matter what that want is influenced by I'm fine with it.

[goldfinch]

Hi Wahine, - et al "purists"
Just to give you a little perspective. I did three upgrades for customers this past summer to Di2. ALL THREE were women with small hands, one with severe arthritis who were really struggling with shifting their road bikes. Two of these customers literally told me they saw the end of their cycling was very near. I feel Di2 gave them a new lease on their enjoyment of cycling.
Sure the "Racer Boys" who run the cycling industry are touting all the "racing performance" of Di2...but performance can be many things to many people.
I'm sure you didn't mean to tell the woman that she is not allowed to enjoy cycling anymore because she has arthritis.
Just a thought.
Seajay

I have a friend in the same position. But, she still struggles with braking. And doesn't appreciate the gearing choices for electronic shifting.

It would be great for my spouse but he would never buy it. I think he would rather walk than pay the price.

[Tokie]

It is my understanding that the Shimano electronic shifting will not prevent cross-chaining. And I was not pleased with the extra wiring & battery pack that goes along with it. I am especially good at cross-chaining myself & when I heard that the electronic shifting doesn't prevent my careless shifting -pffff!

[rebeccaC]

It is my understanding that the Shimano electronic shifting will not prevent cross-chaining. And I was not pleased with the extra wiring & battery pack that goes along with it. I am especially good at cross-chaining myself & when I heard that the electronic shifting doesn't prevent my careless shifting -pffff!

Well, the front derailleur will be correctly trimmed when cross-chaining with electronics :) Technology does have a way of evolving into better systems!! There will probably be wireless, programmable (to not cross-chain etc.) and very small battery systems in the future!

[nuliajuk]

Electronic shifting is less of a drastic change than clip-less pedals were. Does anyone else remember when they came in, back in the 80s? At that time, criterium races were started from a standing start - the commissaire fired the gun as you stood at the start line and you tried to get your feet in your toe clips and tighten your straps as you rolled forward. Clip-less pedals were seen as unfair, so many commissaires started doing a rolling neutral lap to level the field. Today many still do, even though you never see toe clips in races any more.
The point is, bicycling has always been a sport of ever-improving technology and most of the things we use and take for granted on our present day bikes were "unfair" to someone at some point in the past.

[TigerMom]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what DI2 is. As far as I understood it, the electronic DI2 only helped you shift better and smoother but does NOT assist with how well you can power your bike with your legs. Therefore, I don't understand how DI2 is "cheating" in terms of being a fully human-pedaling bike.

[Skippyak]

Mostly the issue will be about the haves and have nots, same old same old, no? Cheating is in the eye of the checkbook holder when it comes down to equipment envy or disgust. It is a lot of money for an upgrade.

[Wahine]

Hi Wahine, - et al "purists"
Just to give you a little perspective. I did three upgrades for customers this past summer to Di2. ALL THREE were women with small hands, one with severe arthritis who were really struggling with shifting their road bikes. Two of these customers literally told me they saw the end of their cycling was very near. I feel Di2 gave them a new lease on their enjoyment of cycling.
Sure the "Racer Boys" who run the cycling industry are touting all the "racing performance" of Di2...but performance can be many things to many people.
I'm sure you didn't mean to tell the woman that she is not allowed to enjoy cycling anymore because she has arthritis.
Just a thought.
Seajay

I agree. As a bike fitter I see the advantage to many people. I just don't think that Di2 should be in the same category as a regular bicycle.


Electronic shifting is less of a drastic change than clip-less pedals were. Does anyone else remember when they came in, back in the 80s? At that time, criterium races were started from a standing start - the commissaire fired the gun as you stood at the start line and you tried to get your feet in your toe clips and tighten your straps as you rolled forward. Clip-less pedals were seen as unfair, so many commissaires started doing a rolling neutral lap to level the field. Today many still do, even though you never see toe clips in races any more.

I don't agree with this. Many of the improvements in bike technology are purely mechanical devices. Di2 has an external power source. IMHO that puts it in a different category. Again, I have not issue with it for facilitating riding for people that have physical issues. I'm just arguing that Di2 can't be compared to a regular bicycle, especially in competition.

[zoom-zoom]

I totally agree that if you have hand issues (arthritis, etc), electronic shifting is definitely a plus. I think there's a difference between accommodating so that you can ride comfortably and buying it because of purported performance improvement (and because it's a cool new toy). But then, you could say that about nearly anything.

I thought Di2 was stupid, too...until I broke my wrist mountain-biking. It's taken me a long time to have enough strength in my fingers/wrist/hand to properly shift my right SRAM lever and my wrist limited my rides until the past couple of months. Had I broken my left wrist I'd really be screwed. It's hard work shifting to the big ring on that side even with a fully functional wrist.

So, yeah, they serve a purpose. I'm considering Di2 on my next bike...especially if I develop arthritis in my bum wrist. Anything that allows me to bike more, in spite of physical limitations/injury, is a good thing.

[zoom-zoom]

I used to only ever drive stick shifts, it is the same thing really, who drives a stick unless you have a performance car anymore? I love auto cars. I get hives when I have to drive my DHs stick shift and I drove stick for longer than I have driven auto. I am waiting for the auto version in bike shifting.

Ha, and you could not PAY me to drive an automagic. Gah, I replaced one automatic transmission in my first car (previous owner clearly had not maintained it properly). Manual absolutely rocks in snow! And traction/stability control blows. I can always upshift and get my foot off the gas faster than those systems will kick-in. I won't even buy a car with automatic transmission.

[Crankin]

I'll take all wheel drive plus my super snow tires any day. A manual transmission could not get me up my driveway in 12+ inches of snow and ice. And I am talking about a small sedan and a mid sized station wagon.
I've had manual transmission cars and there's no way I'd have one now. Too much work! New cars rarely have automatic transmission issues.

[Catrin]

I agree. As a bike fitter I see the advantage to many people. I just don't think that Di2 should be in the same category as a regular bicycle.

.... Many of the improvements in bike technology are purely mechanical devices. Di2 has an external power source. IMHO that puts it in a different category. Again, I have not issue with it for facilitating riding for people that have physical issues. I'm just arguing that Di2 can't be compared to a regular bicycle, especially in competition.

Agreed, there is always room for technology that makes it easier for a wider range of people to ride - but not all of them should be allowed in competition.


I'll take all wheel drive plus my super snow tires any day. A manual transmission could not get me up my driveway in 12+ inches of snow and ice. And I am talking about a small sedan and a mid sized station wagon.
I've had manual transmission cars and there's no way I'd have one now. Too much work! New cars rarely have automatic transmission issues.

I LOVE a manual transmission. PART of it is due to the fact that FOR CARS IN MY PRICE POINT a manual transmission is more responsive in the lower gears. In the end, however, I just prefer a manual transmission and as long as I've two feet I will drive one ;) I HAVE heard interesting things about a hybrid transmission available in some cars where you can switch between manual and automatic? Unsure if I have that right and I don't see that ever being available in my price range. Something like that would be nice if one happens to injure the left foot or leg... That is the only downside to a manual transmission.

It is also dangerous for me to drive an automatic as I want to shift it.... BTW, seems to me I know people with a manual + all-wheel drive? I could be mistaken on that.

[OakLeaf]

Well ... since you'd lock an automatic into first or second to climb my lane in snow anyhow, there's really no difference there. (Except that with an automatic, you have to remember to shift down to lock out the automatic upshift, where a manual stays there all by itself. :) )

But now that my last two cars have been CVT, I don't think I'd want another car with fixed gear ratios no matter how the shifting worked.

@Catrin, Subarus have had that feature for probably ten years? They introduced it right after we bought our last 'Ru, which was an '03. It might have been part of another option package even then, and only later became more standard. I know my mom's car has it. I don't know how common it is in other non-sports cars. But it's still a traditional hydraulic transmission, you just have the option to lock out the automatic shifting and select the gear manually.


As far as maintenance, yeah ... that's a bugaboo from the 1960s. Nowadays as long as you keep your ATF topped off and change it once in a blue moon, you're very unlikely to have problems. Where, when's the last time you bought a used stick shift that DIDN'T have a burned out second-gear syncro? :p

[zoom-zoom]

BTW, seems to me I know people with a manual + all-wheel drive? I could be mistaken on that.

My brother's Subaru is AWD and manual. A Subie is high on our list of next cars...I'd love a manual Crosstrek!

And snow tires...LOVE mine. I can't even make the ABS kick-in 90% of the time when I'm driving in the Winter.

[Crankin]

My last manual car was a Subaru. The transmission failed on a big hill in San Diego...
Of course that was in 1983, but that was it for me.

[zoom-zoom]

Nowadays as long as you keep your ATF topped off and change it once in a blue moon, you're very unlikely to have problems. Where, when's the last time you bought a used stick shift that DIDN'T have a burned out second-gear syncro? :p

We've never even replaced a clutch (or required any other maintenance) on any of our manuals...this includes several cars with well over 200k miles (we've had 4 in about 20 years). I think a properly used MT (ie not riding the clutch) and properly maintained AT are probably pretty comparable. I just personally don't see the point in AT when it typically costs more and potential issues are also pricier to repair. Plus they just work better under the driving conditions I encounter. If I had to do lots of stop-and-go city driving I'd probably feel differently.

[thekarens]

Took me about 2 seconds of living in a big city to discover what a big PITA stick shift is. I learned on a stick and enjoyed driving them, then I moved to the city. In all the stop and go traffic it's a pain and hassle. I'll never own another unless I move.

[Catrin]

... Where, when's the last time you bought a used stick shift that DIDN'T have a burned out second-gear syncro? :p

I've never had a problem with a manual transmission or clutch - outside of the one on which I learned how to drive :o Until a few years ago most of my cars were very old and very well used 5-speed Hondas of one type or another. There WAS one American car in the mix that I drove until the car started falling apart - but the drivetrain was fine! Hard to find used cars like that any longer...

Zoom, thanks for the confirmation, I KNEW there were all-wheel drives with manual transmissions but I couldn't think of an example at the moment. I've always lived in the city and don't even think about urban traffic with shifting - for me shifting IS "automatic" ;)

[luvmyguys]

Took me about 2 seconds of living in a big city to discover what a big PITA stick shift is. I learned on a stick and enjoyed driving them, then I moved to the city. In all the stop and go traffic it's a pain and hassle. I'll never own another unless I move.

Thus is why dh didn't go manual with the most recent car. Traffic + Stick Shift = Not Good.

On some roads, though, they're a lot of fun to drive!

[Wahine]

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

[luvmyguys]

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

Dh's last car was a manual for that reason - it was peppier than the comparable automatic. Chemo, one stress fracture (during which I had to give up my beloved Highlander because he couldn't drive a stick with a boot on) and a whole lot of traffic later, automatic it was.

The stick IS more fun. Just not practical around here, unfortunately.

[zoom-zoom]

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

I love dropping people from a standstill with far more horsepower and AT with my little 150bhp Mazda 3 hatchback. Admittedly, it still gets sorta crappy gas mileage for a small car, regardless of transmission. One reason we'll never own another Mazda (the transmission and engine are about the only things that haven't been problematic in 7+ years).

That Honda Fit is pretty much my DH's dream car. His best car ever was an '89 Honda Civic Si hatchback. He still pines for that thing.

[Skippyak]

This makes me chuckle because when I drive DHs sub impreza WRXsti stick, I giggle at the boy racers beside me who think I am going to take them on at the lights LOL., in this car and his previous car (mazda RX8 stick) people try and race me, people, I am a middle aged lady, I can barely tell what gear I am in. Rev all you like, go ahead and overtake me you crazy bastards ROFL, I is driving the speed limit. I don't like driving his car at all. My FIL loves burning people at the lights in his Honda fit (LMAO).

[Catrin]

I love that this thread has morphed into a discussion of manual vs automatic trannie cars. I mean that sincerely.

Any guesses what I drive? Anyone? Anyone?

A manual!!!! I know you're all surprised. But here's a little something to ponder. My MT Honda Fit gets better gas mileage and is a waaaaaaay peppier ride than my friend's identical but AT Fit. I do have to agree that if you live in a city and get stuck in traffic, it's PITA. But in all other ways, MT is a huge plus IMHO.

It IS interesting how this thread has morphed - but in the end - it IS still about drive-trains :)


Dh's last car was a manual for that reason - it was peppier than the comparable automatic. Chemo, one stress fracture (during which I had to give up my beloved Highlander because he couldn't drive a stick with a boot on) and a whole lot of traffic later, automatic it was.

The stick IS more fun. Just not practical around here, unfortunately. I love the peppier lower gears I get in my cars than the comparable automatics. I am sure there are ATs out there that are just as peppy and responsive, but not in my price range. At least I've not found one. I don't have issues driving in traffic with a stick so I can't really identify with that - but I've NEVER owned an automatic. Back in my taxi-driving years long ago my taxi was indeed an automatic but I HATED that car for far more reasons than the transmission. The only problem I've had with a manual was post-foot-surgery in 2004 - it took me a LOT longer to get back to driving than it would have been as my foot couldn't take the pressure of the clutch once I was cleared for driving.

[OakLeaf]

Electric motor torque, baby. Nothing gets you off the line like a hybrid. :D

[zoom-zoom]

This makes me chuckle because when I drive DHs sub impreza WRXsti stick, I giggle at the boy racers beside me who think I am going to take them on at the lights LOL., in this car and his previous car (mazda RX8 stick) people try and race me, people, I am a middle aged lady, I can barely tell what gear I am in. Rev all you like, go ahead and overtake me you crazy bastards ROFL, I is driving the speed limit. I don't like driving his car at all. My FIL loves burning people at the lights in his Honda fit (LMAO).

I think some guys are not at all choosy about who they do this to. I had some dude in a racy little BMW pull this on me when I was driving my pokey little '97 Ford Escort with my kid in his carseat in the back. He had to have been really bored and REALLY in need of an ego stroking! :p

[thekarens]

My very first car was an RX7. I loved that car. Had to carry a case of oil with me because no one seemed to be able to fix the perpetual oil leak.

[Wahine]

My very first car was an RX7. I loved that car. Had to carry a case of oil with me because no one seemed to be able to fix the perpetual oil leak.

I had a car like that but it wasn't an RX7. I *dreamed* of an RX7.

[thekarens]

I had a car like that but it wasn't an RX7. I *dreamed* of an RX7.

I was lucky. It was my dad's, a 1979 rust colored rx7. He bought it used and when I turned 17 (1987) I got it. In hindsight he was crazy letting me have it, but I was the baby :-)

[OakLeaf]

I learned to drive (the second time, long story) on my brother-in-law's 280Z. Manual transmission, natch. I've never been quite the same since. :p

I don't mind start-and-stop with a manual, at all. Steep hills kind of give me the willies, though. Way less on a car than on a moto that I'm on one tiptoe anyway ...

[Fredwina]

I think some guys are not at all choosy about who they do this to. I had some dude in a racy little BMW pull this on me when I was driving my pokey little '97 Ford Escort with my kid in his carseat in the back. He had to have been really bored and REALLY in need of an ego stroking! :p
I'm amazing at the reaction my little Fiat get from the 'small package' guys(girly car in a girly color). Although , most older guy give me a thumbs up.
Bringing it back to the original topic, the thread has reminded me of the bent controversy back in the 1930's
http://www.cyclegenius.com/history.php
The argument for banning them wasn't they were dangerous or nerdy, but the riders were 'cheating'.

[MarieV]

Here's a really informative review of Ultegra Di2, especially halfway down where Hannah Bussey provides her take on it: http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/tech/components/129445/1/shimano-ultegra-di2.html

When I bought my new bike, my LBS had to special order the frame to get the smallest Colnago CLD (in a 40s) in the color I wanted. That meant I could pick the components--well, within my budget. After weeks of research the review above convinced me to pay the extra $600 to upgrade from Ultegra mechanical to Ultegra Di2. Since it is a Colnago, it would have been nice to have it be all Italian, and I actually considered Campy for about a day. However, Campy Chorus and Campy Record were about the same or a little more than Ultegra Di2, and I already had Shimano wheels and didn't want to spend even more. (BTW, the full Dura Ace Di2 groupset and Campy's electronic shifting Record EPS groupset would have been $2000 more and Super Record EPS was $3000 more than Ultegra Di2.) For racers I think the advantage of Dura-Ace, Record, and Super Record components over Ultegra is probably greater than the advantage of electronic over mechanical shifting at the same level, but as others have brought up before, those who can shell out that kind of cash always have those advantages.

As for dealing with a dead battery, there's a battery indicator light that's solid green (51-100% charge), flashing green (26-50%), and solid red (25% and lower). The typical Di2 battery charge should last between 1000-1500 miles, so you're probably not going to take a Di2 bike on a cross-country ride if you're not going to have access to a wall outlet. But in general the only way you'd have a dead battery is if your indicator light's been flashing green or solid red, and you've just been ignoring it for hundreds of miles. I've ridden about 500+ miles since I've had my bike, and the battery indicator just went from solid to flashing green.

As for Shimano pushing Di2 on consumers, so far only the higher-end carbon bikes are even Di2 compatible, and manufacturers don't even offer Ultegra Di2 as an option on complete bikes except for their highest-end bikes. If anything it seems like for the same price more and more of the newer carbon bikes are getting Shimano 105 or even Tiagra components and cheaper wheels.

For me, the Di2 upgrade was definitely worth it. I'm so much more confident on my new bike, maybe because the frame is smaller and it really fits me and/or maybe because the Di2 hoods are smaller, so with my XS-size hands, I feel more confident shifting and braking. In any case, I'm having a lot more fun riding my new bike, and I don't think we should discredit anything that makes riding more fun. Just my $0.02.

[nuliajuk]

I'm glad you got something that worked so well for you! Thinking back to bikes I've owned over the decades, I have nostalgic thoughts about the rides I did on them, but wouldn't go back to down-tube shifters, toe clips, or deep drop handlebars for any amount of money. People who are overly nostalgic about the good ol' days of cycling often forget that riders at the extreme ends of the size spectrum - but especially small riders - were simply left out.

[zoom-zoom]

I'm glad you got something that worked so well for you! Thinking back to bikes I've owned over the decades, I have nostalgic thoughts about the rides I did on them, but wouldn't go back to down-tube shifters, toe clips, or deep drop handlebars for any amount of money. People who are overly nostalgic about the good ol' days of cycling often forget that riders at the extreme ends of the size spectrum - but especially small riders - were simply left out.

Heck, we're still left out in many ways. I'm frustrated as I look to upgrade my CX bike. If I want something more than entry-level frame and components I pretty much have to go custom...and at just under 5'4" I'm not THAT small, but women still make up a fraction of the field at local races (I think there were only 6-7 of us at yesterday's race...out of hundreds of racers. Most women I've ever seen in a day at our area series is in the neighborhood of 15). Just finding a frame small enough in the first place is a challenge, since the bottom bracket height is so much higher than on a road bike. To find bikes with top tubes that I can clear means that anything larger than a 44 (comparable to my 48cm road bike) is generally going to be too big. I love my Redline and was drooling over their carbon/disc Pro model...which starts at a 48 and would be far too big for me.

[Owlie]

As for Shimano pushing Di2 on consumers, so far only the higher-end carbon bikes are even Di2 compatible, and manufacturers don't even offer Ultegra Di2 as an option on complete bikes except for their highest-end bikes. If anything it seems like for the same price more and more of the newer carbon bikes are getting Shimano 105 or even Tiagra components and cheaper wheels.

For me, the Di2 upgrade was definitely worth it. I'm so much more confident on my new bike, maybe because the frame is smaller and it really fits me and/or maybe because the Di2 hoods are smaller, so with my XS-size hands, I feel more confident shifting and braking. In any case, I'm having a lot more fun riding my new bike, and I don't think we should discredit anything that makes riding more fun. Just my $0.02.

I'm glad you like it! I agree with your last sentence completely. Would I buy Di2? No. Doesn't mean I don't think other people should buy it.

It's definitely harder if you're smaller.

[Owlie]

Heck, we're still left out in many ways. I'm frustrated as I look to upgrade my CX bike. If I want something more than entry-level frame and components I pretty much have to go custom...and at just under 5'4" I'm not THAT small, but women still make up a fraction of the field at local races (I think there were only 6-7 of us at yesterday's race...out of hundreds of racers. Most women I've ever seen in a day at our area series is in the neighborhood of 15). Just finding a frame small enough in the first place is a challenge, since the bottom bracket height is so much higher than on a road bike. To find bikes with top tubes that I can clear means that anything larger than a 44 (comparable to my 48cm road bike) is generally going to be too big. I love my Redline and was drooling over their carbon/disc Pro model...which starts at a 48 and would be far too big for me.

Beautiful bike...but I'd ride the 48. Maybe a 51 if I didn't want to actually race on it and wanted to use it as an off-pavement road bike. (My Charge is close to the 51.) Wow.

[nuliajuk]

Heck, we're still left out in many ways. I'm frustrated as I look to upgrade my CX bike. If I want something more than entry-level frame and components I pretty much have to go custom...and at just under 5'4" I'm not THAT small, but women still make up a fraction of the field at local races (I think there were only 6-7 of us at yesterday's race...out of hundreds of racers. Most women I've ever seen in a day at our area series is in the neighborhood of 15). Just finding a frame small enough in the first place is a challenge, since the bottom bracket height is so much higher than on a road bike. To find bikes with top tubes that I can clear means that anything larger than a 44 (comparable to my 48cm road bike) is generally going to be too big. I love my Redline and was drooling over their carbon/disc Pro model...which starts at a 48 and would be far too big for me.
Believe me, it's way better than it was 20-30 years ago.
Part of the problem with 'cross bikes, I think, is that they can't have a sloping top tube because there wouldn't be enough clearance to carry the bike over the shoulder. Compact frame geometry has created smaller frames that weren't possible years ago, but no-one is going to make a cross frame like that.
edited to add: Probably not quite what you had in mind, but this 'cross frame goes down to 42cm:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/double-cross-disc

[zoom-zoom]

Believe me, it's way better than it was 20-30 years ago.
Part of the problem with 'cross bikes, I think, is that they can't have a sloping top tube because there wouldn't be enough clearance to carry the bike over the shoulder. Compact frame geometry has created smaller frames that weren't possible years ago, but no-one is going to make a cross frame like that.
edited to add: Probably not quite what you had in mind, but this 'cross frame goes down to 42cm:
http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/double-cross-disc

That is lovely. What gets me is that my bike has the most amazing geometry for me (aside from toe-overlap, but I even know bigger guys who run into that), but Redline will only do that frame in low-end models. I guess it's not profitable for them to do carbon molds of that geometry, simply because they wouldn't sell enough of that smallest size. It's NBD for them to do that with aluminum and low-end components.

[MarieV]

Kirsten, the Ridley X-Fire comes in a 41 (45 cm seat tube and 502 mm top tube).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/ridley-x-fire-disc-review
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/ridley-x-fire-disc-shimano-ultegra-6700-complete-bike

Wahine, sorry about hijacking your thread, so those of us who are vertically challenged can vent.

[zoom-zoom]

Kirsten, the Ridley X-Fire comes in a 41 (45 cm seat tube and 502 mm top tube).

Yeah...unfortunately the only shop near us that carries it are sorta sworn enemies -- they fired "our guy" just before Christmas...ugly politics and they've alienated a lot of long-time area cyclists in the wake of that. As a result we're actually in the process of opening a new shop with our friend and 2 other friends (using some of the money DH inherited when his grandma died early this year -- couldn't think of a better way to invest that, really!). So far the lines we're likely to carry (trying not to duplicate too many other shops in the region) don't offer a lot of CX bikes for shorties. At this point custom is my likeliest route...which still sorta sits weird with me. I know it's my own insecurities, but I can't help but feel like my relatively slow, relatively casual riding doesn't "deserve" a $$ custom frame, even though I have legitimate reasons for going that route. I'm still bummed that I can't get a higher-end carbon Redline with discs, since that would be perfect (and probably half what a comparable custom will cost). My low-rent Redline is my very favorite bike. It fits like it was made for me.

[Dogmama]

For me, the Di2 upgrade was definitely worth it. I'm so much more confident on my new bike, maybe because the frame is smaller and it really fits me and/or maybe because the Di2 hoods are smaller, so with my XS-size hands, I feel more confident shifting and braking. In any case, I'm having a lot more fun riding my new bike, and I don't think we should discredit anything that makes riding more fun. Just my $0.02.

+1
For those of us with small arthritic hands, the Di2 is a Godsend. Interesting that you have to get old enough to have arthritis hands to afford one...?

I also looked at Campy because my previous bike of 17 years was Campy. But when I tried the Di2 I was sold. I have never ... knock on wood ... missed a shift in the almost two years that I've owned it. I've also never run out of charge because you get plenty of warning. If you ignore the warning light for weeks, you won't get stuck in a gear. The next warning is that you won't be able to shift your front gears but you'll still have all of your rear derailleur.

I "raced" a guy up a long hill a few weeks ago and beat him only because my shifting was smoother, quicker and more accurate. Hey, when you're pushing 60 hard, winning a race against a kid is a big thing!

[Wahine]

At this point custom is my likeliest route...which still sorta sits weird with me. I know it's my own insecurities, but I can't help but feel like my relatively slow, relatively casual riding doesn't "deserve" a $$ custom frame, even though I have legitimate reasons for going that route. I'm still bummed that I can't get a higher-end carbon Redline with discs, since that would be perfect (and probably half what a comparable custom will cost). My low-rent Redline is my very favorite bike. It fits like it was made for me.

Zoom, you are exactly the kind of person that should buy a custom bike. You know exactly what you want and you ride. That's all that matters. The fact that you have some difficult fitting issues just makes it even more important that you buy custom if you can. And, a custom cross bike doesn't have to be more expensive than a production bike. It's all in the build. You can order the custom frame and everything else you can buy and build up through your shop at wholesale prices. I built a very inexpensive custom cross bike. It's heavy as all get out, but that has more to do with the build than the frame. IMHO it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend a lot on a cross bike build since you ride those bikes in horrible conditions and have to replace parts frequently.