Stupid Kids . . . I know they stole our bikes but . . .

[kajero]

Stupid Kids.
they stole our bikes.
The bikes are worth at least 5,000 so they can be charged with a felony. :eek:
I am sure they didn't know the value of what they stole. They just thought it would be fun to ride some really nice bikes.
Yes, I know they stole them, but I hate to see a felony go on their records. I guess they should have stolen something cheaper.
OK I am a sap. I hope it can be reduced to a misdemeanor.
It would never occur to me to steal someone's bike no matter how accessible it was. In fact, I saw an unlocked bike outside a dollar store a few days ago. I was very concerned about it not being locked up, but i didn't take it! So I am having a rough time figuring out how I even feel about the situation now. Is a felony an overkill :confused:

Of course, I may feel different once the bikes are released. We have to bring receipts and proof of ownership but went out of town before would could do that. If the bikes are damaged well . . . .
The police say the bikes look great and that everyone in the precinct is drooling over them, so I assume nothing has happened to them.

[Crankin]

You are over thinking this.
They stole your bikes; it's a felony. Enough said.
It doesn't matter how much they were worth. Stealing is wrong.

[Owlie]

You are over thinking this.
They stole your bikes; it's a felony. Enough said.
It doesn't matter how much they were worth. Stealing is wrong.

Agreed. It doesn't matter how much the bikes were worth, how much they thought they were worth, or what they were planning to do with them. They chose to commit a crime. They should face the consequences.

[OakLeaf]

Take some time to think about it, and if you still feel the same way, let the prosecutor know.

Understand that it's a structural problem why the state considers the crime these people committed more serious than if they'd punched you in the face and knocked out a few teeth, or if they'd hit you with a car while you were riding and both killed you and destroyed your bike.

Those decisions, about what our penal system considers serious, aren't personal to you. But if you refuse to participate in that system, let the prosecutor know. They may or may not take your feelings into account and offer a misdemeanor plea, but in a case like this, they likely will.

[nuliajuk]

Just how old are they? I bet they did know they were stealing something expensive. They can walk into a bike store and look at prices the same as anyone else.

[Catrin]

There is also another perspective that says if they wind up getting off on a misdemeanor, then they may not learn anything from the experience. Of course that depends on the individuals, but they likely knew exactly what they were stealing - and if I remember your OP properly this was not a crime of opportunity. I've been reading that bike thieves have/are becoming more selective in what they steal.

[pinsonp2]

You need to do what you think is best for you and your DH. However, you need to keep in mind how devastated you were when you discovered the bikes missing, how you felt sort of violated. That needs to be considered as well as the actual value of the bikes. Will the punishment actually serve to teach the thieves a lesson so they will never do that again? We seem to have evolved into a society that some people think that it's OK to take something from someone else because they figure they won't get caught or will get a light sentence. We as victims need to support the justice system to implement punishment that will truly deter these 'boys' from future criminal endeavors. I don't know exactly what that should be, but supporting a lesser charge may not be the answer. YMMV

Glad you are getting the bikes back,
P2

[shootingstar]

Let the charge be on the record. The kids have to learn. They also trespassd on your property to get at the bikes.

[Irulan]

Let the charge be on the record. The kids have to learn. They also trespassd on your property to get at the bikes.

I totally agree with this. Most bike thieves are not opportunists, but part of a something bigger and well on the way to becoming career criminals. Nowis not the time to go all " oh those poor kids might have to go jail now" on them.

[rebeccaC]

Since you don't say how old they are or if they have past criminal records I'll add that forgiveness is my way of not letting a negative feeling control my actions. For sure they need to take responsibility for their actions as we all do. If they are young then for me that responsibility could be like Muirenn's idea about community service and also probation rather than having a felony on their record which has some serious complications on their lives.

In any case do what YOU feel is right regarding talking to the police/prosecutors about your thoughts!!! I've had a couple of cheap personally built up city bikes stolen. My first thought was I hoped the thief would take care of the bike and appreciated the work I put into it :)....then I just let the situation turn into my building up another cheap city bike and moving forward.

Glad you got your bikes back!!!!!!!!

[OakLeaf]

There is also another perspective that says if they wind up getting off on a misdemeanor, then they may not learn anything from the experience.

The other half of it though, is that while a felony conviction will have way more long term consequences, they're also way more likely to serve jail time for a misdemeanor. That's assuming this is their first conviction.

Processing felons is such an expensive proposition that most first-time non-violent offenders get probation. But they'll be saddled with such a stigma, probably won't be able to get a job, can't vote until they're off paper (or in some states, for the rest of their lives), may be kicked out of their residence, etc., etc., that the only thing they're likely to "learn" is (greater) contempt for authority. Someone convicted of misdemeanor theft is likely to serve a short time in the county lockup, usually with more suspended on condition they stay out of trouble ... more likely to be a learning experience IMO.



I don't think the OP was talking about "forgiveness" or letting anyone walk. Her hesitation has to do with a felony charge for a property crime, which is a sentiment I share (provided these people aren't career thieves).

[Crankin]

I generally like the idea of community service, but I don't think it should be the only thing used as a consequence in this case. And while I agree with Oak that things like killing someone on a bike with a car needs to be a felony, the sad truth is, in most of the juvenile cases I've dealt with, there are too many "chances" given, and then we are on a third or fourth offense, for which there have been very little meaningful consequences. And, we don't get the kids and their families the other help they may need.

[indysteel]

Much may depend on whether these kids are prosecuted as adults. Almost all states have "transfer" statutes whereby teens are tried as adults. It typically depends on the crime and the offender's age and past record. Some states allow for prosecutorial and/or judicial discretion, while others made it mandatory for cretain crimes. If they aren't tried as adults, then the state's juvenile justice procedure may provide additional privacy protection and fewer permanent ramifications. That's not to say there won't be serious consequences, but they'll be less severe than a felony conviction as an adult.

[Skippyak]

You all have a great deal of faith in the the idea that there will be any consequences? I doubt there will be any at all. You think they are going to be tried? And it be a felony? How many minor petty thefts even get to court?

[OakLeaf]

Pretty much all of them where the perps are caught (if by "get to court" you mean a complaint and a judicial resolution, not just cases where one party is obstinate enough to waste everyone's time on a trial).

Anyway, where this thread started is they're being charged with grand theft. You're right, there's not a lot of investigative resources put into petit thefts. But these perps have already been caught and, per the OP, charged.

Friend of mine did a couple of days for shoplifting a 59 cent cookie from 7-11.

[goldfinch]

The other half of it though, is that while a felony conviction will have way more long term consequences, they're also way more likely to serve jail time for a misdemeanor. That's assuming this is their first conviction.

Processing felons is such an expensive proposition that most first-time non-violent offenders get probation. But they'll be saddled with such a stigma, probably won't be able to get a job, can't vote until they're off paper (or in some states, for the rest of their lives), may be kicked out of their residence, etc., etc., that the only thing they're likely to "learn" is (greater) contempt for authority. Someone convicted of misdemeanor theft is likely to serve a short time in the county lockup, usually with more suspended on condition they stay out of trouble ... more likely to be a learning experience IMO.



I don't think the OP was talking about "forgiveness" or letting anyone walk. Her hesitation has to do with a felony charge for a property crime, which is a sentiment I share (provided these people aren't career thieves).

I so agree with this. We over punish felonies. People's lives end up ruined forever, with no way to rehabilitate themselves.

[kris7047th]

So they get off the hook with this and then move on up to stealing what? Cars? Make them pay now and do them a favor. They need to learn that if you play stupid games .. you win stupid prizes.

[Jolt]

So they get off the hook with this and then move on up to stealing what? Cars? Make them pay now and do them a favor. They need to learn that if you play stupid games .. you win stupid prizes.

I don't think anybody was suggesting they should get off the hook, it was more that some people were concerned about a felony conviction making it hard for these kids to (hopefully) become productive members of society after serving the punishment for their crime and learning their lesson.

[indysteel]

Again, I think it's worth stressing that unless these "kids" are treated as adults for prosecution purposes, they won't be convicted of a felony, or a misdemeanor for that matter. The treatment for juvenile offenders is different than it is for adults (or juveniles treated as adults). Typcially, terms like "felony" and "conviction" have no meaning within a state juvenile justice program. I don't know Minnesota's system specifically, but it seems to me that the outcome in this case may hinge more on whether the kids are transferred into adult court. Of course, there still be serious ramifications for a juvenile who commits the equivalent of a felony, but many of the concern expressed in this thread about the longlasting effect of convicting a teen with a felony conviction is the very reason that juveniles are treated differently in the first place.

[OakLeaf]

Are they juveniles? I don't think the OP said they were.

[Skippyak]

In the US "kid" as a term for a young person is totally overused. kid to me is a minor.

[Veronica]

We're in our forties and my in laws still refer to us as "the kids".

Personally, I have little sympathy for those who commit crimes - no matter what the age. We live in an area that goes through periods of burglaries - many of which are drug motivated. Our school was vandalized last week; four classrooms broken into. Many items destroyed, and a few things stolen. Imagine explaining to first and second graders why they can't have school in their regular room? Probably done by kids, p!ssed off at society and the educational system. You can only help those who want help and are willing to change.

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

In the US "kid" as a term for a young person is totally overused. kid to me is a minor.

I don't think it's solely in the USA. I don't know much Italian, but one thing I hear all the time is "ragazzi" being applied to adults who are young or just young at heart.

[indysteel]

Are they juveniles? I don't think the OP said they were.

That's what I took her to mean when she said "kid." But if she was using it more generically, then nevermind. I typically only use the word kid to refer to minors. Perhaps the OP can clarify.

ETA: The way she referred to them as "stupid kids," coupled with the suggestion that they likely didn't know the value of what they stole (because they are young, perhaps) led me to believe that we are, in fact, talking about minors. But again, perhaps she can clarify.

[shootingstar]

Since we do have several lawyers in TE forum, then minor must be a legal definition in the U.S., an age benchmark.

Anyway these teenagers (since we don't know their ages) do need to have charge laid whatever it may be in the end, and understand the consequences.

[indysteel]

Since we do have several lawyers in TE forum, then minor must be a legal definition in the U.S., an age benchmark.

Anyway these teenagers (since we don't know their ages) do need to have charge laid whatever it may be in the end, and understand the consequences.

The age of majority differs from state to state, but the majority of states set it at 18. The age at which a child may be transferred into the adult criminal system also differs from state to state. I think many set it at 14. Again, this subject may be a needless tangent if the "kids" are not truly kids but young adults.

[OakLeaf]

Yeah, I guess in my usage and that of most people I know, there isn't a bright line age cut-off for who we'd call "kids," but I would say anyone under 25, particularly when they're doing stupid and criminal stuff. I think the term does have a more negative connotation than ragazzi does in Italian. (But, doesn't everyone say "college kids?" The vast majority of college students are over 18. But anyway.)

I just want to say one more thing ... if without any more information than has been posted in this thread, someone has completely written off these people as unsalvageable as human beings, I'm not going to argue about that. Whatev'. But the question of felony vs misdemeanor seems to me analogous to how you want to get rid of something you don't want in the house. Throw it away, fine. But a felony conviction is like flushing someone down the toilet. At best, you pollute the water and wind up with the residues in drinking water and irrigated soil. At worst, it backs up all over your bathroom...

[goldfinch]

Yeah, I guess in my usage and that of most people I know, there isn't a bright line age cut-off for who we'd call "kids," but I would say anyone under 25, particularly when they're doing stupid and criminal stuff. I think the term does have a more negative connotation than ragazzi does in Italian. (But, doesn't everyone say "college kids?" The vast majority of college students are over 18. But anyway.)

I just want to say one more thing ... if without any more information than has been posted in this thread, someone has completely written off these people as unsalvageable as human beings, I'm not going to argue about that. Whatev'. But the question of felony vs misdemeanor seems to me analogous to how you want to get rid of something you don't want in the house. Throw it away, fine. But a felony conviction is like flushing someone down the toilet. At best, you pollute the water and wind up with the residues in drinking water and irrigated soil. At worst, it backs up all over your bathroom...

Thanks for the emphasis of this point.

We have flushed too many people down the toilet in this country. No rehabilitation allowed.

[shootingstar]

Understanding consequences doesn't also mean writing off people as unsalvageable. So rehab is desired, community service, etc.

Far from it. And it is possible for a parent...if they wish to provide support to the delinquent teenager for the good things about the person -- without condoning/approving a criminal act. And theft is wrong, it is not a "game". Just like bullying, etc. I choose the latter behaviour as something so real among teens, which seems so small, inconsequential to some bullies, that it can affect the victim's mental health...to the point of suicide. (Several highly publicized cases in Canada within the past few months.)

So small acts crime or abuse, if left unchecked, can snowball slowly into something bigger over time.

So what should be done for teens so that there won't be a repeat in break 'n enter, theft on a bigger scale or whatever else later?

I was intrigued when my manager hired a lawyer so that her 21 yrs. old son could be defended for a drunk driving charge. Her son..has a full time job and was going to college. So not a baby. He was living at home. This was last year..

Or maybe because I don't have children but after watching my partner deal with his kids...None of them did anything criminal but some major stumbles in judgement errors and living with the consequences. We all have our stories.

[rebeccaC]

A side note for those of you who live in Seattle....the Seattle PD started a twitter feed the beginning of this month for the stolen bikes they have recovered and bikes that have been found/turned in. Having a photo and serial number of your bike is a good idea to help get it back!!

https://twitter.com/GetYourBikeBack

[shootingstar]

Yes, we tend to forget to take pictures of our "babies".

Here is how the law works in Canada: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Review+launched+after+Hells+Angel+hired+City+Vancouver/8834943/story.html
Each province has a human rights code which are all similar with respect to employment, housing... I believe the basis is Canadian federal constitutional law, Charter of Rights.

Have I heard someone not hired because of a criminal record/charge? Yes, it was a U.S. applicant. We did not spend time to figure out what the charge was. (Seriously wonder how long the cross-border criminal check would have meant from Canada into U.S.....for a temporary worker.) We really needed to work with the person on-site to speed up collaboration work. So our preference for simplicity were Canadian candidates to speed up project start timeframes.

This is for a public sector/govn't employer.

Yes, I work in an area with sensitive info.

[aponi]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but I have a friend at work who told me that her original boss told her that it came down to her and one other person. The other person had some questionable things on their FB page so she got the job.

tough that

Also off topic but I once had a kid hit my car right smack in front of a fire station. I think the guys were a little disappointed that they didn't get to break out the jaws of life. Anyway it was cold out so we were all in the fire station waiting for the police. The cop shows up and tells me that he smelled alcohol on his breath, kid is 20, the very next day he is supposed to be leaving for an archological dig in Malta, he's a senior in college, his girlfriend is pretty much breaking up with him at that very moment. In the cop's opinion the kid is not drunk but he's underage so by definition if he gives him a breathalizer anything at all showing up means he'll have to arrest him. What do I want to do?

All the firemen are looking at me. It was actually kind of tense. I asked the cop if he could scare the kid really bad and then let him go. He got a really evil glint in his eye. I fear I unleashed something here but I figure if he can scare him out of doing anything stupid like that again then ok. I think the guys hanging out there watching the goings on approved.

[redrhodie]

A side note for those of you who live in Seattle....the Seattle PD started a twitter feed the beginning of this month for the stolen bikes they have recovered and bikes that have been found/turned in. Having a photo and serial number of your bike is a good idea to help get it back!!

https://twitter.com/GetYourBikeBack

I wonder if Mimi has seen that link? It would be so great if she got Donald's bike back.

[kajero]

We are out of town right now. The detective contacted us right before we left and used the word, "kids," and said the "kids were going to be charged" so I assumed they were minors. We didn't have any time to do anything else as we were on a tight deadline. will know more when we get back and pick up the bikes and will post then.

[Raddogz]

Hopefully this kids have learned not to it again at the very least and there are consequences. It great you got the bikes back. Here in San Francisco, caught stealing a bike is a mis-demeanor assuming you get caught.

[kajero]

:mad: I TAKE BACK EVERYTHING I SAID. I hope those juvies get charged to the fullest. So much for me being understanding. It wasn't a random act for joy riding. It was deliberate and well thought out.

We claimed our recovered stolen bikes today. They were obviously not just picked up for joy riding.

The luggage rack on my SO's bike was removed. The rack is needed to hold the rechargeable battery. I hope we can replace it. If not, the bike is not useable for someone who needs assistance. We are talking about a $2500+ bike!

The Garmin mounts are also gone. Thanks goodness we keep the computer Garmin's inside.

The coil lock on the top tube I use to lock my bike up when on rides is gone . . . they would have needed a bolt cutter to remove that. That surely would take some thought. If I am going to lock my bike up out of my site, I am going to purchase a much better lock.

My seat bag is gone, my SO's front bag and seat bag are gone.

The end caps on the handle bars are missing.

My Ruby was filthy but I washed it. And my poor Ruby . . . There are lots of new DINGS and scratches.

I test rode the Ruby a little bit a go. The ride seems okay. But it is hard to ride the bike right now. I feel so violated knowing someone else had and abused her so much! I wonder if I will be able to let go of that awful feeling and enjoying riding my Ruby again.

[Catrin]

{{{Kajero}}} so sorry :(

[brigada]

I can sort of understand that there exists some sort of idiot thief reasoning for their actions, but taking end caps is just beyond me :|

What the hell were they going to use them for, ear plugs?

[kajero]

Maybe they thought they could remove the handle bar tape and then decided it was too much work??? I had replaced the white tape with blue tape because the white tape looked so dirty. The blue color on the handle bars is unique. It was what caught the police's eye to stop the thieves while they rode the bikes. I am so glad we provided really good photos to the police

And for those of you who are reading this . .
PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBER, MODEL AND YEAR OF YOUR BICYCLES WRITTEN DOWN IN A SAFE PLACE. Also take a photo of the serial number on the bike and a photo of you and your bike together in front or your house or your car! It helps as point of reference. The detective said these things really helped with the recovery of the bikes! You cannot have too much information!!!!

[kajero]

Muirenn,
I did think of that. Trouble is the insurance deductible is $2500. I have a bike to ride. My SO doesn't. He needs the e assist thing.

[brigada]

Thanks for the tips! I did all those things, save for taking a photo of me and my bike. I hope I'll never need them though!

I'm so glad you found your bikes, it doesn't happen often with such expensive bikes! I hope the police will be able to recover the rest of your equipment as well :)

[Irulan]

Maybe they thought they could remove the handle bar tape and then decided it was too much work??? I had replaced the white tape with blue tape because the white tape looked so dirty. The blue color on the handle bars is unique. It was what caught the police's eye to stop the thieves while they rode the bikes. I am so glad we provided really good photos to the police

And for those of you who are reading this . .
PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU HAVE THE SERIAL NUMBER, MODEL AND YEAR OF YOUR BICYCLES WRITTEN DOWN IN A SAFE PLACE. Also take a photo of the serial number on the bike and a photo of you and your bike together in front or your house or your car! It helps as point of reference. The detective said these things really helped with the recovery of the bikes! You cannot have too much information!!!!

I also have sales reciepts, and printout from the manufacturers website showing the specs. And a statement from my insurer that my bikes are fully covered.

[OakLeaf]

Ugh. ((((((kajero))))))

[kajero]

I also have sales reciepts, and printout from the manufacturers website showing the specs. And a statement from my insurer that my bikes are fully covered.
I did forget to mention the receipts and printout of specs. That was all the file we presented to law enforcement. Good reminder!

[NbyNW]

Maybe they thought they could remove the handle bar tape and then decided it was too much work??? I had replaced the white tape with blue tape because the white tape looked so dirty. The blue color on the handle bars is unique. It was what caught the police's eye to stop the thieves while they rode the bikes. I am so glad we provided really good photos to the police


Wow ... I'm actually a little bit amazed that an officer was vigilant enough to notice stolen bikes! I'm so glad you have them back. Sorry they are in rough shape, sounds like a little TLC is in order.