OT: Slob

[betagirl]

Hi all

Ok, this is off topic but someone has to help me out here. My boyfriend is a freaking SLOB. We've lived together for about 5 years, though we started out as roommates (yeah...that whole story). We've dated for a little over 3 years.

He appears to be mentally retarded when it comes to picking his stuff up around the house. I've tried multiple tactics to get him to help me, but usually what happens is I just do it while getting more and more ticked off. We've had discussions about it, and I've adjusted my "approach" to try not to get naggy about it but "ask nicely." But after a while, I just completely lose it. And let me clarify, the man isn't lazy. He'll spend hours in the garage working on his car. We're not even going to get into what the garage looks like because he works on his car for 9 hours at a time some days. But given the proper task, he sure can become motivated. Just not when it comes to my house. I once told him to pretend it was his car so he'd respect it more. I also tried the whole "if you cared" bit. I've asked nicely - "please can you help with...." And I've not spoken to him for days. The last one seemed to work the best, but isn't my ideal way of dealing with things in life.

For example, this week is really insane for me so I asked him on Sunday to "help me out around the house this week." I come home tonight and there's mail all over the counter, which was added to the other mail that had been added to the counter the past 2 days. His laundry is still sitting on the dining room table. Nothing has been picked up. I'm not asking for a lot here, just to keep the place somewhat uncluttered. I'm by far not a neat freak, and it takes quite a bit for me to lose it. And then when I do get mad, he gets mad at me. Basically in my mind it gets turned around so I'm the bad guy. I rarely raise my voice in life. In fact the only times I get mad at him are because of cleaning.

So I get home after being gone for 12 hours and lose it. Which included throwing a glass into the sink, which subsequently shattered. He then asks me when I'm going to clean up the glass. I'm now locked in our bedroom and told him I'd talk to him when the house was clean. The last time I got this mad I didn't speak to him for 3 days. Needless to say things got picked up.

So the point of this tirade of mine is - HOW DO YOU GET A MAN TO PICK HIS @$#!@*(% up?!?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[yellow]

A friend of mine sent me this class list today. Looks like you may need to enroll him in a few. :p

But seriously, no nag. Stay away from the nag (but it sounds like you're already trying to do that...just resist the urge). I'll search my brain for how I used to deal with this sort of stuff before my DH eventually "got it". I think for a while there I made him do his own laundry. Eventually he had me show him how to work the washing machine. :rolleyes: That was a verrrrry long time ago...

----------------

WINTER CLASSES FOR MEN AT THE LEARNING CENTER FOR ADULTS

REGISTRATION MUST BE COMPLETED BY Monday, Feb. 13, 2006

NOTE: DUE TO THE COMPLEXITY AND DIFFICULTY LEVEL OF THEIR CONTENTS, CLASS SIZES WILL BE LIMITED TO 8 PARTICIPANTS MAXIMUM.


Class 1
How To Fill Up The Ice Cube Trays --- Step by Step, with Slide Presentation.
Meets 4 weeks, Monday and Wednesday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM.

Class 2
The Toilet Paper Roll --- Does It Change Itself?
Round Table Discussion.
Meets 2 weeks, Saturday 12:00 for 2 hours.

Class 3
Is It Possible To Urinate Using The Technique Of Lifting The Seat and
Avoiding The Floor, Walls and Nearby Bathtub? --- Group Practice.
Meets 4 weeks, Saturday 10:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 4
Fundamental Differences Between The Laundry Hamper and The Floor ---
Pictures and Explanatory Graphics.
Meets Saturdays at 2:00 PM for 3 weeks.

Class 5
After Dinner Dishes --- Can They Levitate and Fly Into The Kitchen Sink?
Examples on Video.
Meets 4 weeks, Tuesday and Thursday for 2 hours beginning
at 7:00 PM

Class 6
Loss Of Identity --- Losing The Remote To Your Significant Other.
Help Line Support and Support Groups.
Meets 4 Weeks, Friday and Sunday 7:00 PM

Class 7
Learning How To Find Things --- Starting With Looking In The Right Places
And Not Turning The House Upside Down While Screaming.
Open Forum .
Monday at 8:00 PM, 2 hours.

Class 8
Health Watch --- Bringing Her Flowers Is Not Harmful To Your Health.
Graphics and Audio Tapes.
Three nights; Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 9
Real Men Ask For Directions When Lost --- Real Life Testimonials.
Tuesdays at 6:00 PM Location to be determined.

Class 10
Is It Genetically Impossible To Sit Quietly While She Parallel Parks?
Driving Simulations.
4 weeks, Saturday's noon, 2 hours.

Class 11
Learning to Live --- Basic Differences Between Mother and Wife.
Online Classes and role-playing .
Tuesdays at 7:00 PM, location to be determined

Class 12
How to be the Ideal Shopping Companion
Relaxation Exercises, Meditation and Breathing Techniques.
Meets 4 weeks, Tuesday and Thursday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM.

Class 13
How to Fight Cerebral Atrophy --- Remembering Birthdays, Anniversaries and Other Important Dates and Calling When You're Going To Be Late.
Cerebral Shock Therapy Sessions and Full Lobotomies Offered.
Three nights; Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 14
The Stove/Oven --- What It Is and How It Is Used.
Live Demonstration.
Tuesdays at 6:00 PM, location to be determined.

Upon completion of any of the above courses, diplomas will be issued to the survivors.

[Hell-uv-a-job]

So the point of this tirade of mine is - HOW DO YOU GET A MAN TO PICK HIS @$#!@*(% up?!?!?!?!?! :mad: :mad: :mad:

The thing I did which worked instantly with hubby (never had any major problems after that) is to tell him that if he doen't pick up "whatever" of the couch or table or wherever... its going in the trash. My hubby thought it was a joke one day and I threw away one of his favorite shirts, magazines, dirty clothes, etc. It worked! ;) He was furious but I got my point across very well.

[snapdragen]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe bag everything up in one of those big garbage bags? If you don't want to actually throw anything away, just stash it in the garage or a closet.



The thing I did which worked instantly with hubby (never had any major problems after that) is to tell him that if he doen't pick up "whatever" of the couch or table or wherever... its going in the trash. My hubby thought it was a joke one day and I threw away one of his favorite shirts, magazines, dirty clothes, etc. It worked! ;) He was furious but I got my point across very well.

[Grog]

Wow. This is HILARIOUS Yellow, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I am quite happy to realize that currently I don't feel like my boyfriend should attend any of these, except maybe classes 7 and 14. Having been with boys should could benefit from more than half of these, I feel grateful today.

As for your problem Betagirl... I have no idea. In a way you maybe just have different level of tolerance to clutter/dirt. But if it becomes fundamental, maybe it's a relationship issue.

[SadieKate]

:p Fabulous list. We need to enroll my hubby in:

Class 7
Learning How To Find Things --- Starting With Looking In The Right Places
How about just keeping your glasses on your face or in a pocket at all times? Why should we have to look for your glasses before we ever start looking for .

[I]Class 10
Is It Genetically Impossible To Sit Quietly While She Parallel Parks?It is amazing how many male friends and co-workers have complimented me on my parallel driving. But, Bubba? No, he has to direct the whole time so, of course, I screw up.

Thank goodness he is perfect is all other ways (or I've just sunk to the same level of slobdom).:p

[jobob]

Either fortunately or unfortunately, Lee and I are both slobs of roughly equivalent magnitude.

You should see the frenzied cleaning runs we do when we have people over. Which is why we don't have people over often...

Best of luck, betagirl. Sorry I can't be of any help to you here. :o

[Nanci]

I hate to say it, but I don't think you can make someone change if they don't want to, even nicely. I think if you keep nagging and yelling and doing the silent treatment, he may eventually choose to find someone who better tolerates his slobbiness.

You could hire a maid and bill him for it! (They really aren't that expensive, and are _so_ worth it. I went through a couple year period of being able to afford that, with a BF that thought cleaning was not his job, though he was far from messy.)

Nanci

[betagirl]

Yellow - those are hilarious.

Thanks everyone for the tips, kind words, etc. I'm actually planning on hiring a cleaning lady when we move because I'm beginning to have less and less time to keep up with it. If I worked a "normal" schedule and had more free time I'd not be so annoyed. I specifically lost it yesterday because I asked him nicely earlier in the week to help me, which he agreed to do. When I walked in yesterday and he was sitting on the couch I started by repeating what we'd agreed on. Instead of getting a "jeez I'm sorry" or anything similar, he acted like what the house looked like wasn't a big deal. That just got me more annoyed, and when I picked up the glass that'd been on the coffee table for 2 days and saw the kitchen it was over. He's explained to me he doesn't respond to being yelled at, which I understand. Nobody wants to be yelled at. And I try really hard to not get to that point. What I don't understand is I'm not the type to yell, and he knows this. So he knows when it gets to this point, I'm REAL angry. All I'm hoping for is a compromise, but whenever he does figure out that I'm getting tired of it nothing sticks for very long.

I've actually threatened to throw his stuff out. I also threatened to pile it in his car because that's his pride and joy :D But I've never done it. I think today I'll put all of it in bags and stash it somewhere. He needs to attend the "how to look for stuff" class so he'll never find it :p

What sucks about this is this is the only thing we fight about. We have a fantastic relationship with a drama quotient of 0. So this is just stupid. Part of me thinks that he figures I'll get over it and resume cleaning up. What really annoys me is I'm a grad student in psychology, and I *know* what's supposed to work. My prof's say you'll never be able to apply it to your own life because of the emotional factors involved in personal relationships. Why do they have to be right?

Thanks for letting me b*tch :D

[Surlygirl]

You could do what the woman a few weeks ago on the Today show did. She packed all the kids and Hubbies stuff up that they didn't pick up and sold it all on ebay. The woman who bought the whole lot for 400 dollars offered to give it all back but the mom said No it would never get her point across so they donated everything to charity. They asked her if she still has this problem and she says they all pick up now.
However, this may end a relationship. I like Nanci's idea. Hire someone to do it.

[Pax]

The thing I did which worked instantly with hubby (never had any major problems after that) is to tell him that if he doen't pick up "whatever" of the couch or table or wherever... its going in the trash. My hubby thought it was a joke one day and I threw away one of his favorite shirts, magazines, dirty clothes, etc. It worked! ;) He was furious but I got my point across very well.
I did the same thing with a college roommate, she would leave dishes in the sink until they were moldy...I started giving her three days, then into the dumpster they went. This happened a half dozen times until she realized I was serious. :D

[anne_77]

My parents actually used the trash bag method on me when I was a child and I have to admit it worked. So that's not a bad approach.

I would also suggest that you sit down and assign very specific things for him to do - like cleaning the bathroom every saturday morning, or you cook dinner and he cleans the dishes. Just vaguely telling him to do more around the house may not work if he has a different standard of what are acceptable living conditions. It wouldn't solve the day-to-day problems of leaving a shirt in the middle of the floor, but it might make you less angry if you felt he was contributing more. However, whatever you do has to be an agreement - not a one-sided demand - in order for it to work.

Good luck.

[abuelitodimetu]

Are you sure you're not dating my BF? It sounds so like him a few months ago. I met him 5 years ago and we both had our own places. Mine was tidy like a Japanese garden, his was a stinky brothel. We moved in together 4 years ago and things declined in the cleaning dept. I tried not cleaning and did not work; I tried yelling and (duh!!!) did not work, I tried asking nicely and did not work. This year I took off to prepare for GRE, Gradchool aps, etc... So he's out working and I'm in the house and take care of much of the cleaning...All I demand from him is 1) keep things clean; it shows respect for my house work; 2) when I ask you for a chore, do not do it at your leisure (i.e., a month later), do it NOW. I tried in the past discussing my worries with him. I told him (and I firmly believe this) that doing 1) and 2) is a way of showing love and respect in our everyday dealings. He told me that being "messy" was his nature, which is a bunch of bull. Eventually sh$t his the fan for a different reason and the issue was brought up again and this time it clicked. We had a serious discussion about how what he call "little things" matter and are the meat and bones of a relationship. I made him understand that his disregard for 1) and 2) was equivalent to me blowing his salary on heels. So, my advice is to have a serious conversation that would make him understand the magnitude of the issue.
Good luck!

[Veronica]

Is it possible you're over reacting?

Speaking from personal experience, stress causes me to wig out over the littlest things. I think it's because I can't tell the people who are really causing me the stress how I feel about them, so I bring it home and unload it all on Thom periodically. :(

V.

[sydney_b]

I have a husband and 3 boys. They honestly don't see the same things you do. I think you might have some luck if you were to make a list of things that had to be done on a regular basis around the house, then ask him to choose some he would do.

Doing this really helped my relationship. My husband didn't really want to piss me off, but he really didn't see the same things I did. By being specific and externalizing it via the list, we were able to share the tasks.

Just an idea.

[tulip]

The trash/giving to charity idea is great, but you have to actually do it, maybe several times. You can't just say you'll do it and then not follow through.

If that doesn't work, then I'd have to agree that there's more to it than simple differences in housekeeping habits. It's a respect thing, and may well have deeper roots. You're the psychology scholar, so I'll let you deal with the fall out from that!

[Eaglewalker]

One problem may be that you are using the word "help" to describe the BF's potential involvement in housekeeping. It's not a matter of him "helping" you with "your work", it's a matter of him understanding that half of the housework belongs to him by right.

Determine which places in the house are shared; let him have a place in which to be a slob. Don't touch that place. Also, if you have two bathrooms -- one for each of you -- then YOU must have the bathroom that guests also use. You will keep that one clean, and he will bathe in squalor. When he gets disgusted enough, he will clean it. (Women always screw up on this one. "Why do you clean his bathroom and then get mad about it?" "Because it's the one that the guests use." Trade!)

Follow through on all threats. In other words, if you say you are going to pitch anything left around, pitch it.

I have three brothers, and I was the household maid. I have no sympathy for women who wuss out in this area, and then complain. We must be tough! I did not clean my brothers' rooms. I did do the laundry, and the rule was, what is in the hamper gets washed; what's on the floor gets ignored. Personal stuff left in the common area (i.e., living room) gets THROWN into the personal bedroom, regardless of how it might fall or what it might hit.

For the common space, make some ground rules and stick to them, but -- and this is very important -- make sure you give him his own space in which to be as foul as he likes.

[SadieKate]

During one year of college I shared a house with my brother. He would leave the kitchen and bathroom a mess. When we had an argument about it, he pointed out that he did his own laundry. I pointed out that he didn't get credit for cleaning his own dirt no matter where it was. You only get credit for cleaning someone else's dirt.

My husband likes to say (and bless his heart for it) that we have an equal opportunity marriage. Equal opportunity to iron our own clothes, polish our own shoes, do the laundry, etc.

[Deanna]

I've actually threatened to throw his stuff out. I also threatened to pile it in his car because that's his pride and joy :D But I've never done it. I think today I'll put all of it in bags and stash it somewhere. He needs to attend the "how to look for stuff" class so he'll never find it :p


Piling works for me. We share the cars, so I don't put them there, but I leave them at the end of the table he eats at or on top of his dresser. Eventually he'll go through it and deal with everything (usually when he needs to find something). In the meantime, if companies coming over it's easy to pick up a pile and put it in a grocery bag or two.

[bcipam]

I always think its interesting that people move in together than one party begins complaining about the other and wants to change them. He is what he is just as you are what you are. The whole purpose of dating is to get to know someone, good habits and bad, and decide then if this is the person worth spending your life with. If his slobbiness is a deal breaker for you then you both need to move on because there is no changing him.

My suggestion, if to you he is worth keeping, then just get into the habit of picking up after him and doing the cleaning. Unfair, yes, but this is what you chose. Accept it or move on.

Suggestion: read Dr. Laura's book "Care and Feeding of Husbands". Assigning chores, you know will do nothing. Treating him like a little boy (which obviously he likes and acts that way), and being his mommy and telling him what to do will get old fast. Move on, find an adult male, know what you want and make sure he meets that criteria before moving in with him. It's not worth the nagging and anger every day 'cause he is really not what you want.

PS: Since you started out as roommates you should have known beforehand he was a slob. So why complain about it now???

[carimail]

Why don't you make him a really cute little chore chart with stickers? If he complains that it's immature, well...?

Good luck!

[bcipam]

Oh yeah... treat him like he's 8... that'll teach him! :rolleyes:

[Hell-uv-a-job]

My husbands pour all the trash from his drawers and car into a trash bag and tells me he will take care of it later. One day I looked into one of the closets and found 3 full bags of papers and "things" for lack of a better word. I asked him nicely to clean it several times until I dumped the 3 full bags (which happened to have a few important documents). He got the point although I must confess I think I went a little bit too far on that one but had fun in the process :).
The trash bag method do work only if you DO DISPOSE of what needs to be put away. Putting things in bags and place it somewhere is like cleaning his stuff. It won't do a thing. Let him miss his favorite shirt and when he ask you where it is tell him you trashed it cause he did not put it away :p :D. He won't be happy but hey... he was warned.

[Deanna]

Whenever you start getting angry about doing "his work" you should also consider the things he does for you and puts up with. Partnership is really a give and take and this is really apparent when it comes to chores. I can't remember the last time I had to do any work in OUR yard, and yet DH doesn't complain to mother nature when she scatters leaves all over the place, even hours after he raked up her last mess, so I pile up his papers and clothes so he knows where to look. I was also the one who really wanted a dog, yet he patiently cleans up after him whenever he needs to mow the lawn. He puts up with my apparent mental block against closing things all the way and I help his drink cans make it all the way to the recycle bin.

[yellow]

Good point Deanna! I regularly thank my DH for "putting up with me". And he usually responds with "Well, thanks for putting up with me too."

Relationships have so many hurdles, and good times come a go and come and go. Maybe this is one of those "go" times. I think many others have given you lots to consider in this thread. Hang in there and know that this is really only a fraction of your time together. Focus on why you love him in the first place. Those negative emotions take so much out of us and are so easy to focus on because of that. Whatever the outcome, focus on the good!

[bcipam]

Deanna and Yellow - WORD!!!

That's it in a nutshell - it's a give and take, so pick up the guys dirty undies... I have to assume he does do good things for you or puts what with your nonsense at times otherwise why would you stay with him?

And I don't agree with the throw stuff away thing. What if he did that to you? Would piss you off wouldn't it? It's a matter of leading by example. So put hampers and trash cans in every room and use them yourself. If he doesn't then at last it's close by for you to put away his stuff. Life is too short to be pissed about something so insignificant.

[nuthatch]

I know you've already got all the feedback you need, but....

My slobs really respond to written lists. And, yes, when you are stressed out, all you really want is to come home to some order and feel like home is a place of calm control.

I like Katherine Hepburn's idea that men and women were never meant to live together, just to visit each other! My sister has one room in the house he's not allowed to enter (like Bluebeard's closet) and that's her sanity room.

[Pax]

I always think its interesting that people move in together than one party begins complaining about the other and wants to change them. He is what he is just as you are what you are. The whole purpose of dating is to get to know someone, good habits and bad, and decide then if this is the person worth spending your life with. If his slobbiness is a deal breaker for you then you both need to move on because there is no changing him.

My suggestion, if to you he is worth keeping, then just get into the habit of picking up after him and doing the cleaning. Unfair, yes, but this is what you chose. Accept it or move on.

Suggestion: read Dr. Laura's book "Care and Feeding of Husbands". Assigning chores, you know will do nothing. Treating him like a little boy (which obviously he likes and acts that way), and being his mommy and telling him what to do will get old fast. Move on, find an adult male, know what you want and make sure he meets that criteria before moving in with him. It's not worth the nagging and anger every day 'cause he is really not what you want.

PS: Since you started out as roommates you should have known beforehand he was a slob. So why complain about it now???
Wow, way to be helpful there bcipam. :rolleyes: Let's see, it's her fault for expecting him to grow into the roll of an adult companion (notice I said "grow" like most adults are apt to do) and adapt to life with a partner. Then suggest she just kick him to the curb OR pick up after him because he's not going to change. Oh and shame on her for "complaining" about it here where she just came to vent a little among other women. :confused:

[carimail]

Somehow Dr. Laura forgot to read her own book! :confused:

One must weigh the bad and the good and see if the good outweighs the bad. Sometimes the way to deal with it is to vent to ones friends (physical or cyber) and get it all off of one's chest before being able to step back and see what the problem is, how bad it really is and what would really be helpful in the situation. That's what women do for each other.
If my bestfriend took all of my husband-bashing to heart, she would be hiring an attorney for me!

[margo49]

Following on from Sydney B...

if you're going to delegate/share you can't in all fairness then turn round and criticise the way it's been done. So you will have to accept that the job has been done even if you're less than happy with the result. (Within reason) And you can always give instructions beforehand or for next time (always make it clear your instruction is for "next time" and not going to be construed as a criticism of "this time" )

Most of the time tho' these things are about being over-tired oneself or feeling under-appreciated (which is usually just needing to hear it *said* in actual specific words rather than what SO and kids *actually* think of you )

This and the Lance and Sheryl Split thread have given me a few things to be thankful about...:D

[Kyna]

I don't know if it will work for you, but this has worked well for my boyfriend and I.

I said when I moved in I that I can be a bit of a clean freak, and that my expectations might differ from his and I hoped we could work something out. So from the begining I let him know what my expectations are. His response was "I can be a bit of a clutter, but as long as you give me 1 room that I can have my way, I will make an effort on the rest".

And by truth its worked great. We each have our little "area" that can be cluttered (his the study, mine my clothes in a corner of the bedroom), yet the main traffic areas are pretty decent, and it all makes it much easier to hide/clean when company comes.

Guys hate a "bait and switch" by over-tolerating until it becomes too much, or the feeling they have to change 100% to accomidate. Try a compromise? Give him an area he can get messy with that you will accept, in exchance for areas that he must make a better effort to keep clean for your sanity. Once he realizes he doesn't have to completely change who he is to make you happy I think you'll both be sleepin better.

Make it clear that his efforts make you happier, and not just "well its about darn time", because there is no positive feedback there. If anything its a backhanded compliment if that, and thats in no way encouraging. I find my guy will do just about anything if he thinks the reward is worth it.. and ultimately guys want us happy to make them feel successful in the relationship, no? Start little, baby steps, cleanliness is a habit, not a personality trait. Start with having him help you, involve him... make it fun, make it playful.. make him realize that helping you is rewarding to both of you. Granted you can't make people do 180's but change IS possible. Like someone said, people *grow* in relationship, just gotta make sure its in the right direction. :)

Good luck!

[doc]

Make it clear that his efforts make you happier, and not just "well its about darn time", because there is no positive feedback there. If anything its a backhanded compliment if that, and thats in no way encouraging. I find my guy will do just about anything if he thinks the reward is worth it.. and ultimately guys want us happy to make them feel successful in the relationship, no? Start little, baby steps, cleanliness is a habit, not a personality trait. Start with having him help you, involve him... make it fun, make it playful.. make him realize that helping you is rewarding to both of you. Granted you can't make people do 180's but change IS possible. Like someone said, people *grow* in relationship, just gotta make sure its in the right direction. :)
Good luck!

So much good advice already. I do have to agree with Queen and strongly disagree with bicam but...

Now that you've vented in the right place, a few points.
1 You already know yelling doesn't work. Neither does withholding. Withholding love or speech or anything else always ultimately backfires and pushes your partner away.
2 Of course people can change. They do all the time. The way to help a partner change in a positive direction is with specific instruction. Saying "help me clean up" is not useful. You are more likely to succeed with I statements with clear instructions. Such as "I would feel appreciated and happy and not taken for granted if you would put all of your dirty clothes in the hamper as soon as you take them off". Then when he does it he must get rewarded. This truly works. Remember to use small steps. Real specific easy instructions.
3 I've said it before, but I recommend "imago" to deal with relationship issues. A therapist or a weekend seminar is better but you can start with just the book. The book is called "getting the love you want" by harville hendricks. Some of it is goofy, but retraining yourself to ask for what you need in a polite and respectful way, including why you need it and how it would make you feel, followed by clear gratitude when it is done is the way to go. Everybody has annoying habits. You should also encourage him to tell you the things he's been "ignoring" about you. You probably don't even know what they are and how important they are to him.

Good luck :)

[sydney_b]

Following on from Sydney B...

if you're going to delegate/share you can't in all fairness then turn round and criticise the way it's been done. So you will have to accept that the job has been done even if you're less than happy with the result. (Within reason)

This is definitely the truth. But, I've been able to adjust, although sometimes I do sneak an extra wipe behind the kitchen spigots when he's not looking. :p

True for the boys (11,12, & 16) as well. E.g. When they help fold clothes, it's rarely the way I would do it, but they're trying and I just keep my mouth shut.

[Trekhawk]

This is definitely the truth. But, I've been able to adjust, although sometimes I do sneak an extra wipe behind the kitchen spigots when he's not looking. :p

True for the boys (11,12, & 16) as well. E.g. When they help fold clothes, it's rarely the way I would do it, but they're trying and I just keep my mouth shut.

LOL - I have three boys (4, 6, 8) and when they make their beds its a sight to behold.:eek: I normally just shut the door so I dont feel the urge to go and remake them.:)

[bcipam]

Mmmmmmm, I'm confused as to why my advice is not reasonable. I don't disagree people can change, if they want to, but I'm assuming (and forgive me if this course has not been taken) that all the discussions have already taken place and now the frustration is there is no change.

Listen, I appreciate all of you women trying to help your "boys" grow up and take responsibility. But it is alot of work. Making lists, sorting piles, constantly nagging, that's really no fun is it? I just don't have the patience. I expect my man to be all grown up before we make any commitment.

Yes, the good should be weighed with the bad (and I said that previously). In a relationship I tend to be the neat freak and I can't expect everyone to be that way so, I don't nag, I just clean. My partner does all sort of other things for me like fixing things, doing the heavy chores etc. But if he just sat around on his butt expecting me to do everything, then he would be set out on the curb. How is there any good in that relationship? That obviosuly shows a lack of respect for the relationship.

Nothing wrong in venting but I didn't take the post as just venting. I apologize if no advice was asked for. I obviously misunderstood.

Sometimes, a person needs to realize a mistake was made and instead of trying to fix the mistake, it is better to stop the bleed, cut the loss and move on. Is there a real problem with this recommendation? :confused:

[bcipam]

Somehow Dr. Laura forgot to read her own book! :confused:



Have you read the book? I wonder why you say that?

I understand alot of folks don't like Dr Laura because she seems to be harsh sometimes. I am alot like her. I like to tell it like it is. Life's too short to not be direct. The truth can be harsh and sometimes you need a slap in the face in order to wake up and make the right decision.

I can say, you just write notes and tell him you love him but he needs to pick up his stuff, or I can say let's pin notes around the room with little hearts all over them to tell him to pick up his stuff and listing chores he should do, but if I were him, I would get pissed and purposely do nothing, so what was accomplished?

And back to Dr. Laura, none of us is a perfect person. We have all made mistakes in our life. Lord knows, as I was growing up and even now, I make terrible mistakes. It doesn't mean Dr. Laura (or I) cannot provide meaningful and insightful advice. And you can choose to ignore my advice, not critize it. It was intended to be helpful not hurtful. But we all have to take personal responsibility - if he is the wrong man, whose responsibity is that?

[Hell-uv-a-job]

I understand alot of folks don't like Dr Laura because she seems to be harsh sometimes.

Dr Laura is not harsh, just intolerant. Not a good quality in a "doctor". :)

[SadieKate]

That's it in a nutshell - it's a give and take.

And you can choose to ignore my advice, not critize it.
Through the wonderful world of the internet it is difficult to understand sometimes, but the tone of your words is that you are expecting everyone to take what you say and agree without question. I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like anyone on the Forum personally knows betagirl and her BF. All we can really do is commiserate and offer suggestions since we don't have firsthand knowledge. Frequently, the person must develop his or her own solutions using a conglomeration of many persons' ideas. Sometimes friends just need to listen.

[bcipam]

Dr Laura is not harsh, just intolerant. Not a good quality in a "doctor". :)

I would say you haven't really either listened to her or read her books. It's your perception I'm assuming from other sources she is intolerate. Everyone is intolerate in their own way. But we are all entitled. I personally would not tolerate people who abuse children. Is that wrong?

Also she is a doctor of physiology. She does not hold herself as a psychologist. She admits she does not counsel but that she expresses her own views, as do we all. You can choose to listen or not. I don't always agree with what she has to say but generally, she is right on the mark.

I do suggest you read her book. Then let's talk...

[bcipam]

Through the wonderful world of the internet it is difficult to understand sometimes, but the tone of your words is that you are expecting everyone to take what you say and agree without question. I'm not sure, but it doesn't sound like anyone on the Forum personally knows betagirl and her BF. All we can really do is commiserate and offer suggestions since we don't have firsthand knowledge. Frequently, the person must develop his or her own solutions using a conglomeration of many persons' ideas. Sometimes friends just need to listen.

No of course, I am only expressing my own views. And you are right - Betagirl should weigh all issues and make her own decisions. I only know what she said in her initial post and don't know the whole story. If anything I have said hits home, I hope she understands the context in which the advice was given. It either applies or it doesn't.

[Hell-uv-a-job]

I would say you haven't really either listened to her or read her books. I do suggest you read her book. Then let's talk...

Oh boy...;) :)

[bcipam]

No honestly I would read it... it has alot of good insight into relationships whether man-woman, woman-woman or man-man. Its always good to understand where our partners are coming from!

[abuelitodimetu]

I wonder what kind of advice she has to give homosexual couples, given that she seems to have deep-seated views against homosexuality.
I honestly think Dr. Laura has a view of men and women out of the Jurassic era:

"The women who criticize their husbands in the stories that Schlessinger relates are depressed in their marriages and feel little love from their husbands. Unabashedly asserting that man is a "very simple creature," who needs only "direct communication, respect, appreciation, food, and good loving'" to respond with devotion, compassion and love, this controversial marriage and family therapist claims that every woman can achieve a deeply satisfying marriage if she adheres to certain fundamentals men require. Preparing dinner, caring for the children without complaint, greeting her husband with a kiss and engaging in sexual intimacy instead of "tearing down a husband's necessary sense of strength and importance" can result in the harmonious marriage women crave.

In short, spread your legs and keep his stomach full. I'm sorry, her understanding of both men and women are demeaning to humankind. As women in the twenty first century, we owe many of our freedoms to past generations of women who stood up for themselves and fought against "men's sense of self-importance." If it weren't for those women, I would not have many of the choices I have and because of that, I remind Dr. Laura that well-behaved women rarely made history

[betagirl]

Wow, thanks everyone. This thread really took off :D

Ok first off, we are in no shape or form on the verge of breaking up over this crap. I was venting, though I did ask for advice on how to help a guy figure out how to not be such a slob.

bcipam, I appreciate your advice but it's not really applicable. And well, I'd never buy or read a Dr. Laura book. My mother would listen to her on the radio and I'd just sit and listen to her and scratch my head. I classify her a few levels below Dr. Phil, who's an embarassment to most of the people in the field of Psychology.

So after my big meltdown, which I agree that was brought on by stress, we had a talk the next morning. I think when I get under too much I have a harder time overlooking his messy ways. Anyway, I think he understood a little how upset it made me that he was ignoring/blowing off/whatever you want to call it my reaction to his messiness. You're right, we've lived together a long time and I know this is how he is. But on the flip side, he knows how I am so we need to compromise. And yes, this is a stupid thing to fight over - which I brought up. When I came home that night, the crap all over the counter was picked up and replaced with some flowers. :D

Anyway, thanks again for letting me vent. And for the tips. He'll "behave" for a while but I fully expect him to lapse. So I'll keep those in my back pocket for next time.

[carimail]

Well, we didn't want to tell you this, but we all chipped in and bought you the flowers...after we all got together and had a cheerful coffee with a friendly debate over the pros and cons of Dr. Laura and her books. Now we are all happy!! :p

[Selkie]

Beta - Relationships are hard work, eh? It's all about compromise and choosing your battles. I've become an expert on living the Serenity Prayer (recognize what you can change, change what you can, and have the wisdom to know the difference). Decide what's really important and then try to find humor in the not-so-important things.
Anyway, feel free to vent. We all have things that drive us crazy about our partners.
Ironically, I'm the slob and my husband used to be a neat freak. After 17 years of marriage, I've become a little neater (I have only one coat "unhung up" instead of several) and he's realized that there is a certain freedom in being messy ;). Our three big golden retrievers really make it impossible to have a really clean house anyway.
Yes, my husband cleans the house! Although, of course, he doesn't do it "right." haha. However, I've classified that in the "not important enough to bring up" category. :)

[pkq]

I have learned relationships, from friends to parents, are about giving 100%. But don't take my word for it. I am frequently wrong.

[bcipam]

I wonder what kind of advice she has to give homosexual couples, given that she seems to have deep-seated views against homosexuality.
I honestly think Dr. Laura has a view of men and women out of the Jurassic era:

"The women who criticize their husbands in the stories that Schlessinger relates are depressed in their marriages and feel little love from their husbands. Unabashedly asserting that man is a "very simple creature," who needs only "direct communication, respect, appreciation, food, and good loving'" to respond with devotion, compassion and love, this controversial marriage and family therapist claims that every woman can achieve a deeply satisfying marriage if she adheres to certain fundamentals men require. Preparing dinner, caring for the children without complaint, greeting her husband with a kiss and engaging in sexual intimacy instead of "tearing down a husband's necessary sense of strength and importance" can result in the harmonious marriage women crave.

In short, spread your legs and keep his stomach full. I'm sorry, her understanding of both men and women are demeaning to humankind. As women in the twenty first century, we owe many of our freedoms to past generations of women who stood up for themselves and fought against "men's sense of self-importance." If it weren't for those women, I would not have many of the choices I have and because of that, I remind Dr. Laura that well-behaved women rarely made history

I am of the belief before I make an opinion about something I go to the source. I realize there is alot of critique of Dr. Laura, especially from the gay community, but unless a person has actually read her works or listened to her viewpoint in order to understand her properly, it's hard to debate whether that person's viewpoint is right or wrong.

I just have to assume you have read her books and that based on your own reading you agree with the analysis above. I've read her books and I don't get that feeling at all. In fact, she wrote a companion book called "Woman Power" and clearly does not avocate that a woman just sit back and spread her legs (man, in fact, she would argue the contrary!). Clearly women have a very powerful voice, especially in the care and health of a family. But women are different from men. A biological fact and I say viva la difference! Her book "Care and Feeding of Husbands" points out those difference and explains in order to be happy, we must, as women accept those differences. But that doesn't mean roll over and give in. There really are some powerful, concise and astute observations in her books.

And the Gay Community, on a whole, does not condemn Dr. Laura. Yes some do, obviously there is a very vocal minority. I am a Christian, Heterosexual female. I have some viewpoints about homosexuality as well. No, not what you think. That's a whole other thread. But I do believe that sex, regardless of one's bent, should be taken very seriously. I, as does Dr. Laura, feel casual sex is extremely hurtful and damaging. I also feel no one, gays or straights, should have sex without a true comitment, legal is best. There are biological and moral reasons for this. Anyway, enough said. This is the viewpoint of Dr. Laura and many conservative Christians. Now before anyone starts, aren't I entitled to my viewpoint just as you are entitled to yours? I condemn or judge no one, I just say this is my belief. It is not a liberal viewpoint but I do not condemn anyone's right to a liberal viewpoint.

Also I want to add: I realize alot of women who use this forum are very liberal, feminist and gay. OK exact opposite of me. If I were intolerate I clearly would not come to this site, participate in the community and add my own posts. I am interested in listening to everyone's viewpoint and what they have to say. We all have a common thread - the love of cycling. It's so cool we can all agree on that!

I can't really make an informed decision about anything if I don't know both sides of the coin. My beliefs and viewpoints work for me. I am older (55), have lived my life and have had alot of experiences which help shape my views. I started out in life very liberal (I graduated in '68 at the height of SDS - nothing more liberal than that!). My personal experiences and observations have made me more conservative about things. I also know not everything is so black and white, right or wrong. What works for one person may not work for another. But I know what works for me. I am not intolerant, close minded or harsh. I just different from you. Nothing more.

[abuelitodimetu]

I have, in fact, had the appalling experience of listening to her talk show a few times when our truck radio broke and got stuck on her station. So, my opinion is informed. Furthermore, even if I grant Dr. Laura and you the point that there are certain qualities that are intrinsic to male and female nature, respectively, it does not follow that our behavior should/ought to adjust to those differences. No normative claims follow from factual claims. Honestly, I do not which context could make the phrase "tearing down a husband's necessary sense of strength and importance" a little less loathsome.

I can grant you that you're not intolerant; you have not shown intolerance. Nevertheless, Dr. is a judgemental hidebound pseudo-expert who has passed very misguided judgements with regards to both homosexuals and the feminist movement. And yes, I have evidence. So, not only is Dr. Laura annoying and ignorant, she is also spreading lies and hate. So I am sorry, but I am not going say "What works for you might not work for me; we're all cool." The world would be better off without scumbags like her:

So then they make babies without guys and that's part of the feminist mantra – men are not necessary.
Not only that, they are the oppressors. They'll rape and molest your kids and beat you and leave you. The whole mentality is bizarre. And so we have a large percentage of children who will never have a father.

"The well-funded and well-connected homosexual activist movement has become the McCarthyism of the 21st century."

"Of course a society should discriminate. Of course it should. It should discriminate against certain behaviors. And man-on-man and woman-on-woman sexual activity is a deviant sexual orientation -- does not promote any of the values set forth Biblically."

"I am so sick and tired of all the Arab-American groups whining and complaining about some kind of treatment... What culture and what religion were all the murderers of 9/11? They murdered us."

[Eaglewalker]

I have read one of Dr. Laura's books, and I listened to many hours of her radio program. She can be intolerant, and she can be ignorant. I have a problem with her making pronouncements in areas where she is ignorant. This, to me, is the real issue.

One example: a woman called in with an issue, and said that she knew that as a Christian, she was required to forgive, but she was finding this hard to do. Dr. Laura responded that the woman was NOT required to forgive. This was completely wrong -- she should have sent the woman to someone who understands the basic tenants of Christianity.

Another example: a woman called in asking whether she should go on a cruise with her husband. It would entail finding a sitter for her young child because the Coast Guard would not allow more than X number of persons on the ship (based, if I recall, on the number of berths). Dr. Laura said that was ridiculous; it was obvious that a baby could fit in the cabin. The real problem --which she would have realized if she knew anything about sailing and safety -- was not whether the baby would fit in the cabin, but whether it would fit in a lifeboat should there be need.

To give Dr. Laura her due, however, I have also heard one or two homosexual persons calling in with relationship problems. Dr. Laura did not condemn or lecture them, but addressed the problem just as she would have done had it been a heterosexual person.

[Trek420]

bcipam..."I just have to assume you have read her books and that based on your own reading you agree with the analysis above. I've read her books and I don't get that feeling at all."

So many books, so little time, there are much more important things for me to do (like ride...and eat) and better things to read. Like I haven't read any of the Harry Potter books yet!

No, I haven't read her work but when a writer/speaker is generaly agreed to be homophobic, there's enough going on to make me mad during the day that I don't need more.

It's like when someone says "I think this milk is curdled, could you try it?"

You just told me it's bad, I don't need to try it!

"And the Gay Community, on a whole, does not condemn Dr. Laura. Yes some do, obviously there is a very vocal minority."

Oh? And since when do you speak for us?

"I am a Christian, Heterosexual female. I have some viewpoints about homosexuality as well...."

And you and your viewpoints and welcome here!

But you should be aware that speaking as I do for the global LGBT community as a whole (not) we're not asking for, concerned about, care one bit about, give a flying bleep about you think of us.

We're not asking for your approval but would appreciate it very kindly if you would convey to the Christian Right wing as a whole that we would kindly and repectfully appreciate it if you would do what I see (as a lil' Jewish gal from Petaluma, so what do I know?) as the Christian thang to do and get your foot off our backs.

Ya know, judge not lest ye be?..that sorta thing I think that's somewhere in there?

Eating shrimp is an abomination too, I don't see Fred Phelps picketing Red Lobster Surf and Turf Unlimited Shrimp Night ;-)

Want to protect marriage? Cool!! Do something USEFUL for a change. I'd like to see the Christian Right turn their wrath on child molesters, child abuse, elder abuse (honor thy father and mother? isn't that one a the top 10?), spousal abuse, drug and alchohol abuse, cruelty to animals (often the first step towards violence to humans)...those things and more truly endanger marriage and the family.

Do that and we'll be right there with you doing fabulous makeovers of mega churches.

"But I do believe that sex, regardless of one's bent, should be taken very seriously. I, as does Dr. Laura, feel casual sex is extremely hurtful and damaging. I also feel no one, gays or straights, should have sex without a true comitment, legal is best. There are biological and moral reasons for this. Anyway, enough said. This is the viewpoint of Dr. Laura and many conservative Christians. Now before anyone starts, aren't I entitled to my viewpoint just as you are entitled to yours?"

Too late, I'm gonna start.

Yes you are entitled to them. And we are so lucky to have this respectful space to share views.

But I'm confused, someone explain to me like a 2 year old how we got from talking about the gay community as a whole (like there is one, because we're as diverse in oppinions as we are people) to casual sex? Interesting segue (sp?). How do you get here from there?

I don't believe in casual sex either. Some do I'm sure, sigh, no one I meet that's for sure. I mean you don't have to wear a tux, or formal gown to bed with me but....oh I see...

Oooh. You mean sex without commitment?

Oh, now whose fault is that that we can't marry?

Two drunk total strangers married in a drive through chapel in Reno by an Elvis impersonator have more rights than a committed long term gay couple.

If I should be so lucky as to meet the future Mrs Trek420 I would like to have the same rights as my heterosexual peers. Don't care what you call it, don't have to call it marriage but what I'm seeing preached from the pulpit of the Christian Right (which is neither if you ask me) is that my right to provide health care, to visit a spouse in a hospital, for her to inherit property from me...all this threatens your marriage somehow.

I don't think we threaten your relationships at all, rather it strengthens and stresses the importance of commitment.

[abuelitodimetu]

Eating shrimp is an abomination too, I don't see Fred Phelps picketing Red Lobster Surf and Turf Unlimited Shrimp Night ;-)


"But I do believe that sex, regardless of one's bent, should be taken very seriously. I, as does Dr. Laura, feel casual sex is extremely hurtful and damaging. I also feel no one, gays or straights, should have sex without a true comitment, legal is best. There are biological and moral reasons for this. Anyway, enough said. This is the viewpoint of Dr. Laura and many conservative Christians. Now before anyone starts, aren't I entitled to my viewpoint just as you are entitled to yours?"


But I'm confused, someone explain to me like a 2 year old how we got from talking about the gay community as a whole (like there is one, because we're as diverse in oppinions as we are people) to casual sex? Interesting segue (sp?). How do you get here from there?

I don't believe in casual sex either. Some do I'm sure, sigh, no one I meet that's for sure. I mean you don't have to wear a tux, or formal gown to bed with me but....oh I see...

Oooh. You mean sex without commitment?

Oh, now whose fault is that that we can't marry?



Trek, I'm glad you picked up on those points and replied to them. This morning while I was swimming in a mad rage, I realized what made me the angriest about this thing is the perpetuation of the stereotype of gay = promiscuous, which is a complete non-sequitur.

Also, to break the stereotype, one need not be gay + liberal + feminist + atheist to share a dislike for misogynous, homophobic views. I just believe that everyone is entitled to get a shot at the good life.

And just for laughs (because, although certain points have to be made, what I love about TE is the fun) the famous open letter to Dr. Laura:

Dear Dr Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how best to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:&. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15: 19 - 24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev 25: 44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

f) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

g) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev19:27. How should they die?

h) I know from Lev. 11:6 - 8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves.

i) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of threads (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24: 10 - 16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? Lev 20:14.

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.....

[Trek420]

Thank you Abu (can we call you abu for short?). I wasn't quite sure what to say but find a good workout clears my head. So after I got back from the dojo I've always found I'd rather use wit, humor and hopefully some logic to make a point, I'm rarely angry, or not for long.

And so because I love the way we use humor here and just in time for Valentines day the top 15 Biblical Ways to get a Wife:

1. Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head,
trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she's yours.
- (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)

2. Find a prostitute and marry her.
- Hosea (Hosea 1:1-3)

3. Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock.
- Moses (Exodus 2:16-21)

4. Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal.
- Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)

5. Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one
and carry her off to be your wife.
- Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)

6. Have God create a wife for you while you sleep. Note: this will cost
you a rib.
- Adam (Genesis 2:19-24)

7. Agree to work seven years in exchange for a woman's hand in marriage.
Get tricked into marrying the wrong woman. Then work another seven
years for the woman you wanted to marry in the first place. That's right.
Fourteen years of toil for a woman.
- Jacob (Genesis 29:15-30)

8. Cut off 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law's enemies and get
his daughter for a wife.
- David (I Samuel 18:27)

9. Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you'll definitely
find someone. (It's all relative of course.)
- Cain (Genesis 4:16-17)

10. Become the emperor of a huge nation and hold a beauty contest.
- Xerxes or Ahasuerus (Esther 2:3-4)

11. When you see someone you like, go home and tell your parents,
I have seen a ...woman; now get her for me. If your parents question
your decision, simply say, Get her for me. She's the one for me.
- Samson (Judges 14:1-3)

12. Kill any husband and take HIS wife. (Prepare to lose your son though).
- David (2 Samuel 11)

13. Wait for your brother to die. Take his widow. (It's not just a good idea,
it's the law).
- Onan and Boaz (Deuteronomy or Leviticus, example in Ruth)

14. Don't be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity.
- Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)

15. A wife?...NOT!!!
- Paul (1 Corinthians 7:32-35)

[Eaglewalker]

The following is an email exchange. A friend sent me the original. Being a helpful person, I tried to answer all the queries raised. My responses are in italics.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

No -- just invite them to the barbeque.

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

Well, that depends. Do you plan to sell her on Hollywood Blvd, or Rodeo Drive?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness (Lev.15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

The Biblical reference is to her bed, her chair, and having sex with her. Just stay away from all chairs and beds except your own. You're only allowed to have sex with your wife, so if you don't know when she's menstruating, you aren't living in the same town with her and won't have much chance of sex, anyway.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

Your neighbor is wrong. Under NAFTA, you can purchase both Mexicans and Canadians. (They can also purchase us.) When you schedule the depreciation of your slaves, don't forget to account for Jubilee Year, when you have to free them.

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. (Exodus 35:2) clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Let your neighborhood priests and elders handle it. They may call you in to help with the stoning, so always keep a good pile of small rocks on hand.

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

They are equivalent. Anyone who would indulge in one abomination would indulge in the other. Just as anyone who smokes marijuana will eventually progress to heroin and the downfall of Western civilization.

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Sit in the back of the room, just to be safe.

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

This isn't a killing offense, but it might involve another barbeque. Be sure they invite you.

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Just take a ritual bath after the game, and remember, no sex for a week.

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Well, blaspheming is a sin against the community and might bring the Lord's wrath down on the whole town. I'm afraid everyone is going to have to dig into their rock piles for this one. (Are you sure you want to admit to being related?)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

You're welcome.

[Trek420]

I knew it! Dr. Laura is lurking here.

thank you, thank you Dr. Laura, such sensible advice. And when you have that BBQ, invite me and I'll bring the quiche, yogurt and Perrier (that's all we eat BTW.)

::surfs off to buy all your books:: and now, back to cycling?

[abuelitodimetu]

[QUOTE=Trek420]Thank you Abu (can we call you abu for short?). [QUOTE=Trek420]

Absolutely!

And now I have to get to work: First, replenish rock pile; Second, wait for BF to come home and have nice evening of stoning (the neighborhood is full of infidels!).

[Trek420]

abuelitodimetu's agenda:

"And now I have to get to work: First, replenish rock pile; Second, wait for BF to come home and have nice evening of stoning (the neighborhood is full of infidels!)."

"So I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned"

~Bob Dylan

[Veronica]

"But I do believe that sex, regardless of one's bent, should be taken very seriously. I, as does Dr. Laura, feel casual sex is extremely hurtful and damaging. I also feel no one, gays or straights, should have sex without a true comitment ... quote from bcipam

Too late, I'm gonna start.

Yes you are entitled to them. And we are so lucky to have this respectful space to share views.

But I'm confused, someone explain to me like a 2 year old how we got from talking about the gay community as a whole (like there is one, because we're as diverse in oppinions as we are people) to casual sex? Interesting segue (sp?). How do you get here from there?




bciPam did not say gay sex = casual sex. She said sex should involve a commitment, no matter what type of relationship you're having.

Personally I am aghast by how this thread has disintegrated into what I perceive to be a bashing of conservatives.

Veronica

[Susan Otcenas]

Hello Ladies,

I've had a few PMs on this thread, so I think I'm going to ask everyone to step back and take a deep breath. I am passing no judgements on anyone's opinions here, but since it's a OT thread and we all still want to be friends in the morning, perhaps we should let this thread cool off a bit?

Tailwinds,

Susan

[betagirl]

Yeah but my b/f is still a slob...... :D :D :D :D :D

[Trek420]

...and the stoning, can't believe I made a joke about that, that's so not funny and on a personal level that should never have left my fingers. I'm sorry.

I'll try to make this long story my Dad told me short.

When my Dad was a small child the family lived in Israel, then called Palestine. One day the small family, my Dad and my Aunt in the care of an Aunt and Uncle took a vacation to the hills. Along the way they passed through a small town.

Up to that point my Dads childhood impression of the Middle East is that it was a very tolerant place, Christians, Jews, Muslims, everyone pretty much getting along. But according to my Dad the British were stirring up trouble between the Muslims and Jews, Dad was pretty good at history, don't know all the details of that part so anyway they drive into this tiny town as afternoon prayers are getting over and the congregation (I guess called the same) leaves the Mosque.

Seeing the small Jewish family the car was surrounded by the angry mob and ..well things did not good for Trek being here today.

Just then the Muslim cleric came out and saw what was about to occur as my Dad described it strode into the mob at risk to his own life.

I recall my Dad telling me that the cleric said something like "we're Muslims, this is wrong, we don't kill innocent people". Anyway given that lesson the crowd parted, the little family left and here I am today.

This made an impression on me. Though I'm not observent my family background was very religious Jewish and my core belief is that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Budhists, Pagan, straights gays, cyclists, roller bladers (well maybe not them) ....our core beliefs values are much the same and no one religion has a monopoly on what's right, all have value.

Sorry for any upset that I have caused. Off to do the dishes which are piled up.

[abuelitodimetu]

I second both of your statements Hell-uv. Well said.

[carimail]

I should not be doing this, I should just go about my business and not post this - but I can't help it. I realize that this thread maybe appear to be disheartening to some people, but what's going on here is actually a good thing (stay with me, here).
A post of this nature is not going to change someone's views or beliefs or heal deep seated wounds that have been inflicted by harmful ideologies. BUT we are all women here and we have a lot in common just in that fact alone. We are mothers, sisters, wives ("legal" or not), daughters and friends. Regardless of whom we choose to love, male or female, or whom we choose to worship - it is safe to say that most of us, being the nature of women, would stand up for those things we hold dear...and we'll stand strong. The problem is that we need to realize that each of us holds different things dear. We are all individuals and we all have the capibility to love.
What I found most hopeful is that the women who have posted here have all been obviously intelligent and they have been brave enough to stand up for what they believe in. That is admirable in every case.
What we need to do now is go back and look at our peers here - on this women based group -and see them as individuals, not as representatives of stereotypical groups we dislike.
This world is kind of a mess - let's work together to make it better and kinder. :)

[snapdragen]

Well said cari!

[KSH]

My parents actually used the trash bag method on me when I was a child and I have to admit it worked. So that's not a bad approach.

So, basically, you have to treat him like a kid... to get him to help around the house.

He's not going to change. From what you said, he has been this way for 5 years. Only you can change at this point.

The underlying issue here though... is that you want to feel like he respects you and what you do... by helping out.

When you do EVERYTHING... he never does ANYTHING around the house... you start to feel... TRAMPLED ON and ABUSED.

Yes, I lived through this in a 5 year marriage. Everytime I would ask for help... he would give me excuses why he couldn't do anything... and trust me... he did NOTHING. He barely worked half the time we were married.

This is the very reason why I do not want to live with or marry anyone again.

But...since you seem like you want to stay with him... :) ... you need to have him pay for 1/2 of a maid service... problem solved. (I tried this too, but my ex *****ed about the expense, so I had to pay for it myself... but not like he had a job or any money!)

[Hell-uv-a-job]

KSH is right. You both been living together for 5 yrs, I don't see why he would change after all that time getting away with that. You must ask yourself one question: What if you both have kids? Do you think he would help with the house shores then? See... If you have a messy husband how do you explain your kids that they must pick up after themselves? :confused: Kids get to be very messy and are "hard work" (no pun intended ;) ), if you got into an argument with him now because you had a bad week it will get ugly with the little ones around. :(
Suggestions: Get a dog (since they are like kids sometimes) and see if you would be able to handle a dog and a slob. :D

Oh... almost forgot. The "trash treatment" works.

[betagirl]

Thanks gals. It's not like he does nothing around the place. We're both painting the house to prep it for going on the market. It's the day to day "tidying up" that he completely sucks at. We have a dog, and 2 cats. Kids aren't on the horizon, for reasons other than them taking after their father in the cleaning dept :D

I'm hoping when we move and he owns half the house, he'll care more. Currently I'm on the mortgage here and he pays me rent, but he doesn't own anything. Not that that excuses anything, but I'm hoping since I can't change him that his perspective will change. He told me it wasn't personal when I told him it reflected his respect for my feelings. I did my best to convey that it indeed was, even if he didn't think so. It's not the act, it could not be cleaning but something else that bothered me, but the fact that it bothers me doesn't phase him. And that was the issue that was making me so pissed.

Anyway, I have lots of suggestions. This by no means is a deal breaker to the relationship. I'm not perfect either so he puts up with my respective crap. And he's wonderful in most every other way. I just had to rant and knew you would lend a good ear and give some nice tips :D

As for the other stuff on the thread, I'm not getting involved there ;)

[Eaglewalker]

I'm hoping when we move and he owns half the house, he'll care more.

Personally, I think that is a forlorn hope. Either he doesn't notice or doesn't care, and ownership is not going to change that.

My big question is, was he ever trained to clean? I have a theory -- and it's been borne out by nearly everyone who has answered the question -- that if there are more boys than girls in a family, the boys don't do housework (doing dishes is excluded from the theory). If there are more girls, the boys share in the housework. The theory only holds when the siblings are relatively close in age.

If he wasn't trained and he's not in the habit, he's not going to change unless it's to his advantage -- i.e., he'll lose something important to him if he doesn't mend his ways.

[Hell-uv-a-job]

I have a theory -- and it's been borne out by nearly everyone who has answered the question -- that if there are more boys than girls in a family, the boys don't do housework (doing dishes is excluded from the theory). If there are more girls, the boys share in the housework. The theory only holds when the siblings are relatively close in age.

If he wasn't trained and he's not in the habit, he's not going to change unless it's to his advantage -- i.e., he'll lose something important to him if he doesn't mend his ways.
Not necessarily, maybe his mom was a clean freak and since he's grown old he can do whatever he wants. I would call those "rebel slobs" :) . In my hubby's case both his parents worked and went to school and also they were kind of slobish so he did not know any better. With a little patient and the fact that HE WANTED to do the right thing, things got "cleaner". I am a clean freak but not to the point of making his life miserable. I have to admit, he is a great husband and goes out of his way not to see me mad, and I spoil him A LOT :) .

[Eaglewalker]

Now that is entirely possible, but I still don't think that house ownership is going to change anything -- especially not shared ownership.

I will admit to a strongly-held position, based on my own upbringing: I will not clean up after a man, nor do I think women should -- not when it means that the woman has the major burden of homemaking/housekeeping. It's one thing if homemaking is her job, so that she spends most of her time creating and sustaining the home, while he spends most of his time making the money that enables them to have a life, or if she does the inside work while he does the outside work, and the amount of work is roughly equivalent. What commonly happens, however, is that while both partners have equally demanding paid jobs, the woman takes on the vast majority of the home work, and ends up contributing far more time and energy than the man does. Even if he takes on the "outside work", it rarely takes as much time as the "inside work".

I don't have the studies at hand, but I believe this phenomenon is well-documented.

[Trek420]

Eaglewalker "I don't have the studies at hand, but I believe this phenomenon is well-documented."

I think what you're talking about is this:
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/courses/knowbody/f04/web2/sansell.html

I've heard it called "the Second Shift" by some.

This phenomena that mostly applies to women. Does this ever happen that you get home and are asked imediately "what's for dinner?" that kinda thing. I think most here would agree that whatever your relationship status or kind, communication so that no one person feel taken advantage of or over worked or over stressed is important.

[Eaglewalker]

Trek--

I think that cites most of the US studies. Though one line in that article gave me the giggles -- "she wakes early to start her 9am job and doesn't return home until 5pm."

Starts when? Returns when? Dang! I get up at 6am to start work by 8:30am and think myself lucky if I get home by 6:30pm. Rarely do I take lunch. I have at most half-an-hour a day to do a household chore or two -- the rest of the time is spent taking care of the critters (and part of this time is multi-tasking: working my remote job while I exercise the chinchillas). I have lost some eight or ten pounds in the last two weeks because I have not had time to eat properly, either at work or at home. My place is a wreck. This is a sorrow to me as I am by nature quite neat, but there's not much I can do about it until I get more of the rabbits into permanent homes.

(And before anyone asks, the critter care is because I have a house full of rescue rabbits, from this rescue: http://homepage.mac.com/lauriekay/PhotoAlbum7.html . The chinchillas are from another rescue. I don't collect or breed animals. I have five rabbit pens in what used to be my dining room, two in what used to be my living room, another in my study, plus my own "free range" rabbit, who is in the process of becoming best friends with the bun in the study.)

[doc]

Battling terrorism, regardless of where it is, is fighting for a way of life.
The 9/11 portion of a previous post disrespects the people who died that day and subsequent days. I love the USA and believe in its greatness. Patriotism? Yes. That is also disallowed in many circles these days in the U.S. Sad in my book. We enjoy benefits by living here many other countries don't afford. Do we have problems? Sure. But I'll take our problems and work towards solutions.

Hot thread. I don't want to burn my fingers, but can't resist.

First, PKG. I feel there are way too many on the right who insist that Strongly Objecting to the iraq war is the same as being unpatriotic. On the contrary, I believe open discussion is very patriotic. It says I love this country but believe we've made a mistake and need to fix it. It most definitely does NOT disrespect those who died on 9-11. That was a tragedy and I'm tired of hearing it invoked as the reason we invaded Iraq. The two are completely unrelated. There is no link whatsoever. I think (no, I KNOW) the Iraq war is an abomination. The CIA (Paul Pillar head of info on iraq) has come out to state that Bush had them massage and cherry-pick the information they had about Iraq in order to back a decision for war which had already been made. Many generals have also publicly disagreed with war. But the right keeps up the loud spin proclamation: if you disagree with the war you are unpatriotic. What??? I support those troops more than the warmongers. They'd be a hell of a lot better off at home. They should never have gone there and we should stop killing more of our young men. Not to mention, since when does dissent = traitor? And battling terrorism? You're kidding right? Cuz I don't see how killing afghanis and iraqis has been helpful. We destroy their infrastructure so they don't have basic necessities like electricity etc. and then we call ourselves heros? It has increased the hatred towards us and doubtless increased the ranks of those who would perform evil upon us. And as for defending my way of life? I really don't think a president who believes he is above the law and can wire tap whenever whoever he wants is protecting my way of life. He is infringing upon it. Then renaming his activities anti-terroism is BS. Plus lying to start a war? Hmm, that doesn't defend my way of life either. My way of life includes peaceful coexistence with other countries. I heard a really good plan for peace. First, don't start any wars....

As for morality issues etc. I'm with trek420 et al. I'm married and straight. I simply cannot figure out how a gay/lesbian couple getting married defiles the sanctity of my marriage. Or anyone elses. Could someone explain that to me? Just the idea that state and federal politicians would consider adding to the lawbooks (or constitution) laws that are intrinsically prejudiced (i.e. no gay marriage) is beyond me. Did we not learn anything from those old laws forbidding interracial marriage? That's based on the bible too. By the way, I love the dear Dr. Laura letter. I think everyone needs to admit that no-one follows the bible to the letter. So note that while male homosexuality is forbidden in the text, female homosexuality is not. And alot of my clothing is made out of multiple fibers what with stretch jeans being so popular and all...

Conservative viewpoints are fine. But not when that includes forcing those beliefs upon others. So, if you think gay marriage is wrong then marry someone of the opposite sex. But let others who have made that choice (although homosexuality is not actually a choice) live their lives too.

OK. I've got my protective gear on now. I'm ready for the fallout.

[Pedal Wench]

I love the fact that we all have a place to voice our opinions, be they similar or not. We should all be thankful for that.

I have to add my Dr. Laura gripe. I used to really like alot of what she said -not all, but alot of the opinions about women wising up and not being doormats. However, one woman called in. She was pregnant, out of wedlock. She was already a single mother of a 12-year old. Dr. Laura strongly suggested, insisted in fact, that she give the baby up for adoption. 'How can you even consider raising this baby without the benefit of a father?' I was so outraged, and never listened to her again. What should this woman do with her 12-year-old? Give her up for adoption too? What should every divorced or widowed woman do? Give up their kids? Because by virtue of being single they are no longer fit to raise the child on their own? Argghhh! So, while Dr. Laura's advice, books and shows (yes, I have read her books) helped me get out of an awful marriage, sometimes she completely misses the mark. By a mile.

[abuelitodimetu]

Hot thread. I don't want to burn my fingers, but can't resist.

First, PKG. I feel there are way too many on the right who insist that Strongly Objecting to the iraq war is the same as being unpatriotic. On the contrary, I believe open discussion is very patriotic. It says I love this country but believe we've made a mistake and need to fix it. It most definitely does NOT disrespect those who died on 9-11. That was a tragedy and I'm tired of hearing it invoked as the reason we invaded Iraq. The two are completely unrelated. There is no link whatsoever. I think (no, I KNOW) the Iraq war is an abomination. The CIA (Paul Pillar head of info on iraq) has come out to state that Bush had them massage and cherry-pick the information they had about Iraq in order to back a decision for war which had already been made. Many generals have also publicly disagreed with war. But the right keeps up the loud spin proclamation: if you disagree with the war you are unpatriotic. What??? I support those troops more than the warmongers. They'd be a hell of a lot better off at home. They should never have gone there and we should stop killing more of our young men. Not to mention, since when does dissent = traitor? And battling terrorism? You're kidding right? Cuz I don't see how killing afghanis and iraqis has been helpful. We destroy their infrastructure so they don't have basic necessities like electricity etc. and then we call ourselves heros? It has increased the hatred towards us and doubtless increased the ranks of those who would perform evil upon us. And as for defending my way of life? I really don't think a president who believes he is above the law and can wire tap whenever whoever he wants is protecting my way of life. He is infringing upon it. Then renaming his activities anti-terroism is BS. Plus lying to start a war? Hmm, that doesn't defend my way of life either. My way of life includes peaceful coexistence with other countries. I heard a really good plan for peace. First, don't start any wars....

As for morality issues etc. I'm with trek420 et al. I'm married and straight. I simply cannot figure out how a gay/lesbian couple getting married defiles the sanctity of my marriage. Or anyone elses. Could someone explain that to me? Just the idea that state and federal politicians would consider adding to the lawbooks (or constitution) laws that are intrinsically prejudiced (i.e. no gay marriage) is beyond me. Did we not learn anything from those old laws forbidding interracial marriage? That's based on the bible too. By the way, I love the dear Dr. Laura letter. I think everyone needs to admit that no-one follows the bible to the letter. So note that while male homosexuality is forbidden in the text, female homosexuality is not. And alot of my clothing is made out of multiple fibers what with stretch jeans being so popular and all...

Conservative viewpoints are fine. But not when that includes forcing those beliefs upon others. So, if you think gay marriage is wrong then marry someone of the opposite sex. But let others who have made that choice (although homosexuality is not actually a choice) live their lives too.

OK. I've got my protective gear on now. I'm ready for the fallout.

I could not have said it better. While I wanted to bring about some of those points myself, I feared that I had thrown enough fuel to the fire (with the Dr. Laura letter) by now. May I add one thing? The only individuals that were "bashed" are a loosely identified group of people that adhere to the outrageous beliefs espoused by Dr. Laura (as expressed in her quotes about discrimination) and those who would take to heart a literal interpretation of ancient scriptures. I do not want to put my foot in my mouth, but I do not think being socially conservative equates supporting those views... In fact, those who want to preserve traditional values of respect and neighborly love (as I myself do) would certainly find those views repugnant.

[Eaglewalker]

...I feared that I had thrown enough fuel to the fire (with the Dr. Laura letter) by now. ...
I am starting to feel like Lizzie in Pride and Prejudice:

"Oh! shocking!" cried Miss Bingley. "I never heard anything so abominable. How shall we punish him for such a speech?"

"Nothing so easy, if you have but the inclination," said Elizabeth. "We can all plague and punish one another. Tease him -- laugh at him. Intimate as you are, you must know how it is to be done."

"But upon my honour I do not. I do assure you that my intimacy has not yet taught me that. Tease calmness of temper and presence of mind! No, no -- I feel he may defy us there. And as to laughter, we will not expose ourselves, if you please, by attempting to laugh without a subject. Mr. Darcy may hug himself."

"Mr. Darcy is not to be laughed at!" cried Elizabeth. "That is an uncommon advantage, and uncommon I hope it will continue, for it would be a great loss to me to have many such acquaintance. I dearly love a laugh."

"Miss Bingley," said he, "has given me credit for more than can be. The wisest and the best of men -- nay, the wisest and best of their actions -- may be rendered ridiculous by a person whose first object in life is a joke."

"Certainly," replied Elizabeth -- "there are such people, but I hope I am not one of them. I hope I never ridicule what is wise or good. Follies and nonsense, whims and inconsistencies, do divert me, I own, and I laugh at them whenever I can. But these, I suppose, are precisely what you are without."

And by the way, I don't think that this discussion is really very far off the original topic. What are we talking about, all the way through, but what we can and cannot tolerate in others? We don't like the thoughts of others, or the way they live their lives, or where they do or do not leave their dirty laundry; where and how can we express our opinions; are we entitled to interfere? Poor betagirl at least has the strength of position: she is sharing her life with the person whose opinions/habits/dishrags are in question!

[carimail]

Sigh! What a great line quoted at such an appropriate moment. Jane AUsten never disappoints and anyone who can whip her lines out like that is forever admired by me. :D

[Trek420]

Eaglewalker

OMG I just was looking at the conditions those bunnies you rescued were found in. Depolorable! Thank you for doing what you do.

But one good thing is that Betagirl, compared to that house your BF is Martha Stewart. Heck we're all Martha compared to that.

[Eaglewalker]

(Off-off-topic, I'm pleased to be able to report that the unfortunate couple are now in a decent home. They were allowed to keep one rabbit, a three-legged bun that sleeps with them. So it's not only the rabbits that were helped by this rescue.)

[betagirl]

Poor betagirl at least has the strength of position: she is sharing her life with the person whose opinions/habits/dishrags are in question!


Thanks Eaglewalker :) And yes, kudos for your rescue work.

[pkq]

OK. I've got my protective gear on now. I'm ready for the fallout.

You don't need protective gear. If I post further, it will get uglier.

I am Christian, Southern, conservative, Republican, and an engineer. I do not belong here, which has been pointed out. In other threads, as well as this one.

I don't care to open up like bcipam and be trounced. It isn't worth it. And I lack the maturity to handle it.

This is a cycling venue. Here, I am a cyclist. If I continue to post at TE, cycling will be my limit.

[Brandi]

my husband is a slob. I used to get really upset. I still do from time to time. I have treid everything. Nothing works. Unless we have company over. oh, and so you know we have been together for 19 years. you really ave to take several deep breaths when you are looking at the stuff and ignore it. What made me finally give in was this.
When I was growing up my dad was a clean freak. So much he would hit us for things not being spotless. I once had to scrub with a broom and soapy water , a wall outside that was 50 by 15 ft. I was outside all day crying and scrubing. So my point is ,when I get mad over the stuff being on the floors and tables I remember my childhood and breath a sigh of relief that i am not living with the as*h*le dad anymore. I would rather have stuff laying all over te place then have to live with so much pain you know. Sometimes you have to let go!

[doc]

I am Christian, Southern, conservative, Republican, and an engineer. I do not belong here, which has been pointed out. In other threads, as well as this one.

I don't care to open up like bcipam and be trounced. It isn't worth it. And I lack the maturity to handle it.

This is a cycling venue. Here, I am a cyclist. If I continue to post at TE, cycling will be my limit.

Quite the contrary. You are more than welcome to post your opinions. That's the point of that freedom of speech thing.
***You just can't expect everyone to agree with you. You also can't expect to be in the majority even though your category "Christian, conservative, Republican" is.***
And of course you belong here. You belong anywhere you want to go. No one wants you to go away and stop posting just because you're an engineer!! ;) It's simply a matter of whether you want to open up to the possibility that there are many strongly held, legitimate, christian even, beliefs other than your own.

[bcipam]

The only reference about 9/11 that I have seen so far was this one:
"I am so sick and tired of all the Arab-American groups whining and complaining about some kind of treatment... What culture and what religion were all the murderers of 9/11? They murdered us." and that is a quote from Dr Laura, which is a Christian.
:D ;) :D :p ;) :D :p :) :)

Just a note - Dr. Laura is not a Christian but in fact, an orthodox Jew.
Off the Dr. Laura thing - cause I have friends that hate her as well. She is not everyone's cup of tea, I would like to make a couple of things clear.

I am of the belief that a person's sexual preference is hard wired. As a Christian, I believe we are all God's children. God makes no mistakes. If he makes someone gay it's for a purpose. Everything He does is for a purpose. OK we don't always understand the purpose, and there in lies the rub.

I don't necessary believe 'cause you are gay, you believe in casual sex. Unfortunately both communites (homo and hetero) are now becoming more casual in their sexual dealings. All too many couples jump to soon into sex. It is a scientific fact, that once a couple has sex, a chemical imbalance occurs that last for 12 - 18 months. It basically "blinds" you and keeps you from seeing all those little signs you should see before joining with or marrying someone. You just know the divorce is around the corner. All your friends can see it, but you can't (I am speaking hypotherically here).

I do feel its a shame gays cannot legally join. I feel marriage is a religious ceremony but no reason for gays or domestic partners to not be able to participate in a civil, legal union. I'm hoping, with all this passion and concern, that you gay women out there are fighting hard for this change. I believe a committed couple, no matter the arrangement, should be afforded the same protection as other committed couples. Maybe this is your purpose. Use your Community to affect change.

If I have in any way demostrated intolerance, or displayed a bias, I don't apologize because that was not my intent. I may have been inarticulate especially trying to type and do other things and not gotten my point across. When I asked BetaGirl to read Dr. Laura's book, I was not making a comment on Dr. Laura herself, I felt the book was helpful. You dont have to be perfect to be able to give good advice.

Also, please do not assume that all Christians and conservatives believe in the far Right. I am a moderate, middle of the road conservative who has voted for republicans, democrats and independents. I try to weigh all the issues and pick the right person for the job.

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion and I've enjoyed all the viewpoints. It's always good to get the heart rate up. Just better to do it on a bike than this way don't ya think?

PS: One more note - I have many Christian friends who are very liberal, about as left wing as they come (yes we have fun discussions!). Just because someone is a Christian, don't automatically assume they are a Republican. Christians come in all shapes, sizes, and politicals beliefs. Geez I even have gay friends who are Christian. God does not discrimnate. Everyone is welcome to believe!

[carimail]

I am Christian, Southern, conservative, Republican, and an engineer...

I'm agnostic, Western, liberal, democrat BUT I married an engineer - does that give me some footing on all sides? I agree that everyone, even engineers, are welcome here. ;)

[abuelitodimetu]

Just because someone is a Christian, don't automatically assume they are a Republican. Christians come in all shapes, sizes, and politicals beliefs. Geez I even have gay friends who are Christian. God does not discrimnate. Everyone is welcome to believe!

bcipam, I am elated to read your post. If I ever misjudge you, you have proved me dead wrong. Reading about your beliefs makes me really happy, for no matter how much I like to argue against those who are homophobic and misogynistic, the fewer of them, the better. Due to the impersonal nature of internet writing, I want to make something clear. In no way I directed my attacks against you; I am deeply pissed at Dr. Laura and wanted to point out that whatever advice she dispense it should be taken with extreme caution.

Given that Dr. Laura has been such a controversial topic of discussion, should we make a a rule about no ever mentioning DR. Phil?

[snapdragen]

I am Christian, Southern, conservative, Republican, and an engineer. I do not belong here, which has been pointed out. In other threads, as well as this one.


I'm going to repeat what Susan said, we all need to step back and take a deep breath. I don't like it when anyone feels they are unwelcome here at TE, that's not what we are about, is it ladies? Maybe it's time to let this thread die.

Oh - pkq, I can accept a Christian, Southern, conservative, Republican. But an engineer??? My dear you are asking too much!!!:D ;) :D ;)

snap "my Daddy is an engineer" dragen

[Trek420]

pkq,

we have an ENGINEER?!

Please stay and could you explain to me like I'm a 2 year old how I can possibly get similar gearing on a compact double that I get from my triple? :rolleyes: :cool: ;) :o and anything else of course.

[Hell-uv-a-job]

pkq, I can accept a Christian, Southern, conservative, Republican. But an engineer???
Not an engineer, but an ELECTRIC engineer :) ? What can I say, nobody is perfect :p ;) :) :) . At least she can ride a bike... :cool:

[slinkedog]

Wow... never read this thread until today. I know things are cooling off, and that's good. I just want to add a quick 2 cents. I am another one of those Christian chicks. I believe in the bible and it really makes me sad to see it taken out of context and ridiculed in a place where I have always felt good about visiting and where I have made some really good friends. I could sit here and take apart all of those mean-spirited posts making fun of the bible, but I won't bother. Suffice it to say that I am a sad TE'er this day.

[Hell-uv-a-job]

I believe in the bible and it really makes me sad to see it taken out of context and ridiculed in a place where I have always felt good about visiting and where I have made some really good friends. I could sit here and take apart all of those mean-spirited posts making fun of the bible, but I won't bother. Suffice it to say that I am a sad TE'er this day.

Don't be sad :( . I think not everyone is prepared to read something like that specially if you are a Christian. I believe that the purpose of the jokes is to show how some Christians and religious leaders "pick and choose" from the Bible what is convenient to them. Like I said, not very many people take the joke lightly. It is NOT an attack on the Bible but is just an attack on some Christians (not the Christian in this board but those who use religion to control the masses).

[bcipam]

In a sense this thread has been hijacked. Beta I'm sorry your boy friend is a slob. I know you'll think about it and do the right thing whatever that thing is. Bottom line, he is what he is (and only you and he know that) and you are what you are. Take that into account and consider what needs to be done.

Back to the hijack, for 3 years I've been studying "Apologetics" or "Defending the Faith." As an evangelical Christian part of my beliefs system is to witness to others and help them understand my passion for the Lord and hopefully persuade, through word and example, that my way is the right way. BUT I truly believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions and that I do not have the right to judge anyone because their beliefs are different then mine. Only God has the power to judge. Who am I to cast the first stone?

Christianity is an interesting discipline to study. One concept that is hard to understand is that God has given us the right to choice. As example, God is usually equated to being a lover or a father. You can't force or buy love. It must come freely through free will. All God can do (and us his followers) is show you what he is all about and hope you learn to embrace and love him. But if you don't it's your choice. That is one of the most powerful messages contained in the Bible.

OK so are there good Christians out there? Yes, lots of good ones but bad ones as well (too many in fact). It's true, not everyone follows the bible. I try but am weak and make lots of mistakes. No human is perfect and we fail time and time again. It would be like I judge all gay people on one bad apple. Is that fair to the entire gay community? Over the last 40 years I have had many gay friends, mostly male, but some female. I have sat with my male friends as they slowly died from AIDS. It broke my heart to see these good people suffer. I have a lesbian friend I ride with. No big deal she and I don't talk much about our sex lives as that's private but we do talk about everything else and I enjoy her company. Do we talk abut religion and politics? Yes whenever its brought up and trust me my friend and I have gotten into some rip dooser arguments but we still remain friends. Why? Because we respect each other's point of view. I have something to learn from her and she from me.

Just my observation and again since this is a written not verbal media, I might have misunderstood, but I felt (as did others) some of the posts to be very nasty and condemning of my Christian, conservative beliefs. I welcome an open discussion and understand different folks have a different viewpoint about all sorts of different things but we all are entitled to our viewpoint. If I don't condemn yours, please don't condemn mine or PKQ's or Slinke's. Please continue to post your thoughts, but let's make sure everyone's viewpoint is respected.

[abuelitodimetu]

Please continue to post your thoughts, but let's make sure everyone's viewpoint is respected.

As they have been, for no one has been silenced or forced to belive something that she does not want to believe.

[Veronica]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcipam
Please continue to post your thoughts, but let's make sure everyone's viewpoint is respected.


As they have been, for no one has been silenced or forced to belive something that she does not want to believe.

There are lots of ways to be disrespectful through language, tone and innuendo without actually trying to silence someone or "force" them in anyway.

The fact that at least three people have voiced feeling offended shows that there is a problem with this thread. Failure to drop the topic when someone says they are offended shows disrespect in this environment. This has not been a friendly debate, but a series of posts ridiculing peoples' core beliefs.

Politics and religion - two topics not suited for polite company.


Veronica

[Susan Otcenas]

I've decided to close this thread.

I'm not trying to stifle debate, but I do think that feelings are being hurt, however unintentional.

I've had a few PMs from people thinking about leaving the forums because of this thread. I would hate to see that happen! Please, let's remember what brings us all here together.

Best,

Susan