Soy: good, or bad?

[Miranda]

Hello my lovely and knowledgeable TE Ladies!:)

What say ye about soy?

I've read both good and bad about it thru Mr. Google. Lots of info to sort out!:rolleyes:

I've been trying to adopt a plant based vegan type diet and am wondering about this.

Thanks!:cool:

[Owlie]

I'm sure that if it is edible, someone on the Internet will say that it cures cancer and will make you a better person, and someone else on the Internet will say that it's Satan incarnate and will not only cause cancer but cause your property values to drop as well.

Everything in moderation.

[roadie gal]

Vegetarians tend to like it. "Paleos" hate it. It's just like Owlie says. I, personally, tend to eat it sparingly because of the breast cancer in my family and soy's estrogenic properties.

[redrhodie]

I used to eat a lot of soy, but got both breast cancer and Hashimoto's, so I have cut most of it out. My endocrinologist said it's okay in small amounts, and my oncologist said it's controversial, but a little would probably be fine. I still eat Miso soup maybe once a week, and soy sauce on occasion. I would say avoid the most processed forms if you're worried, like fake hot dogs.

[Crankin]

I use tofu about once every other week. Also, I have one really good recipe that uses soy crumbles, but that could be replaced by ground turkey. I stopped using soy sauce, more due to the salt content, which really affects me. I use coconut aminos now, which is less salty, but I still use that sparingly.
There's no breast cancer in my family, so I think Red's doctors' opinions are probably good ones.

[OakLeaf]

I cut out most soy, including all refined soy protein, after I was found to be at high risk for breast cancer at a time in my life when I was eating a lot of soy, both refined and unrefined. It's been several years, but without looking up references, IIRC the *least* equivocal research is that which associates refined soy protein with increased risk. I still use soy sauce occasionally, and tofu or tempeh maybe two or three times a year. Many people say you shouldn't eat unfermented soy, but I'm not really aware of the research on that. Basically, for me, it's a matter of risk vs benefit. As much as marketing likes to tout this or that thing, there is no magic food, and eating soy isn't going to do anything for you that eating other real foods can't ... but too much soy does carry a greater risk than I'm willing to take for myself.

By the same token though ... I still drink some alcohol. So it really is a personal risk/benefit decision, and I count pleasure and social integration among the benefits. If you really like soy - or eat with a lot of people who do - it's fair to count that in your decisionmaking.

[GLC1968]

Personally, I think that any substance that mimics a critical hormone in our body is probably not a smart thing to eat in kind of quantity.

That said, I have always limited my soy consumption simply because it upsets my stomach. When I discovered paleo and found it it was off-limits for other reasons, I wasn't heart-broken.

[PamNY]

I avoid the more processed forms of soy, but I do eat tofu. I also like edamame.

[shootingstar]

Hmmm. If tofu was so horrible then we would have an epidemic of breast cancers among women in the countries that created tofu in the lst place --China, Japan..huge populations who have eaten the stuff.


Consider this:

Tofu made with least amount of chemicals. No preservatives. Fresh tofu must be eaten within days. People made tofu...at home.
Some of the stuff I see in stores has more chemicals than necessary.

And please don't get mixed up with soy sauce. It's the high salt content to be alert about. So always buy low sodium. The bottle label must say this. Not "light" soy sauce. It must be "low sodium or low salt". I'm horrified by Food Network channel,when chefs dump in tons of soy sauce.

Think of it this way: soy sauce is like eating olives with abit of the preserved salt/oil.

To put soy sauce in stir fry dish to serve 4 people, I put no more than 1 tablespoon --or alot less --depends if there is a blend of meat and veggies. If it's just veggies, less soy sauce.

[soprano]

I eat vegetarian, and it's entirely possible (not that difficult, really) to get plenty of protein without living on tofu or processed soy products. If you're leaning towards plant-based, vegan eating then I'm guessing that you're doing so for health reasons, and you'll probably want to avoid those processed foods anyway. If I'm making a stir-fry I'll consider tofu, and I love me some edamame, but I also get protein from beans, whole grains, nuts (peanut butter!) etc.

Everything in moderation. A wide variety of foods is always a good way to eat.

[emily_in_nc]

Aside from the possible increase in breast cancer risk, soy is thought to depress thyroid function, and is one of the most likely products in your supermarket to be genetically modified (GMO). And unless made from organically grown soybeans, soybeans are one of the most highly pesticide-laden types of produce.

And all of this sucks because I really like tofu and don't eat a lot of meat so do appreciate its protein content. I eat it sparingly now and then, but not as much as I would prefer for the reasons stated above. I also like soy sauce.

:(

[OakLeaf]

Well, typically in the stores where I shop, certified organic tofu is less than 10% more expensive than conventional. (Sometimes the same price.) Well worth it IMO, provided you trust the manufacturer and certifier (which is a whole 'nother thread).

As far as soy sauce ... as I said in the other thread, I have trouble getting ENOUGH salt, so that's not an issue for me, but remember that salt is a preservative in soy sauce and miso, so just be sure if you buy a low-sodium kind, that it's not packed with other more toxic preservatives.

I really love Ohsawa Nama Shoyu. The flavor is well worth the price, especially for someone who doesn't use a lot. Plus, apparently a lot of other soy sauce is pasteurized after fermentation, which means you don't get the probiotic benefits.

[shootingstar]

Given your doctor's diagnosis, Oakleaf in previous threads, your salt need is very specific to you.

On the opposite side my mother was advised by a Western trained Chinese-speaking doctor in Toronto (therefore Canadian medical doctor like my sister), to severely cut back on her salty soy sauce intake. This was 15 years ago. It is salty which means dear mother should not have olives from brine either nor miso. Miso is high salt content. Period. It's not the soy I'm objecting to, very high salt content. Ok like once a month, not several times per week to have lots of miso.

So tough to get totally organic soy sauce.

[OakLeaf]

So tough to get totally organic soy sauce.

:confused: You mean you don't trust the certifiers? I would trust Eden brand for sure. They're a very reputable company, and they have their products independently tested for GMOs. I don't have such a strong opinion about other brands (and actually a pretty negative opinion about anything certified by QAI), but there are lots that are at least labeled certified organic - including Kikkoman which is available in any grocery store.




And just FTR - though kind of drifty - most active people need at least as much salt as I do. What's specific to me is that I eat very little processed food AND I don't enjoy the way highly salted foods make me feel. My neighbor brought over some chicken soup the other day, that she must've made with canned stock. The first few bites tasted good, after that not so much. I need to get it in small amounts throughout the day.

[Owlie]

Personally, I think that any substance that mimics a critical hormone in our body is probably not a smart thing to eat in kind of quantity.

That said, I have always limited my soy consumption simply because it upsets my stomach. When I discovered paleo and found it it was off-limits for other reasons, I wasn't heart-broken.

I hate to point this out, but many food plants contain phytoestrogens. I will also point out that many cruciferous veggies contain "anti-estrogens."

Sprouts, anyone?

[Owlie]

And just FTR - though kind of drifty - most active people need at least as much salt as I do. What's specific to me is that I eat very little processed food AND I don't enjoy the way highly salted foods make me feel. My neighbor brought over some chicken soup the other day, that she must've made with canned stock. The first few bites tasted good, after that not so much. I need to get it in small amounts throughout the day.

FWIW: When my dad was in his 20s and in the British army reserves (and a lot more active otherwise than he is now), he had a similar issue of just not being able to hold on to enough salt. He started having to keep potato chips around. Good thing (or not so much, now) that he likes them.

[OakLeaf]

Mmmmmmmm, potato chips.

Pesticide-laden potato chips fried in GMO soybean oil. :D

[GLC1968]

I hate to point this out, but many food plants contain phytoestrogens.

That is true, but their concentration compared to what is in soy (and some nuts and seeds) is minor.

My point was to not eat these things in quantity (and I would say the same of nuts and seeds for more reasons than phytoestrogens) and I stand by it. :)

[Miranda]

Thank you, ladies!:) Great discussion thus far.:cool:

Well my mom is a breast cancer survivor and has osteoporsis. So those are two specific health things I need to be mindful of in changing my diet.

All this extra discussion about salt is ironically how I started the veggie eating journey. I was having dizzy spells from my BP being high. So I decided to cut out processed foods with sodium, and some other things like dairy (a lot of sodium)...and threw in the no meat thing to boot. My results within a month were a dramatically positive turn-around. Thus, my interest in this type of diet grew.

I have two diet athlete books I am reading currently. One is the Paleo way (gym cycling buddy following this, reading to compare and be able to discuss). The other is the Thrive Diet (vegan based, towards what I think I want to follow). Btw, nice article link comparing the two for anyone interested>>>http://experiencelife.com/article/paleo-vs-vegan/ (jic link doesn't work, google experience life paleo vs vegan article May 2012).

It sounds like soy might not be a good idea as a big thing in my life. I'm early on in my journey learning what to eat. I'm not sure if we have a qualified nutritionist/RD in our Mayberry area I could consult about my specific family health history. Gonna hafta research that some more. You ladies are always so amazing in your diverse backgrounds and knowledge.:D

[Owlie]

That is true, but their concentration compared to what is in soy (and some nuts and seeds) is minor.

My point was to not eat these things in quantity (and I would say the same of nuts and seeds for more reasons than phytoestrogens) and I stand by it. :)
In that sense, I agree with you. All things in moderation, including moderation. ;)

[Owlie]

Mmmmmmmm, potato chips.

Pesticide-laden potato chips fried in GMO soybean oil. :D

I'm sure there are fancy ones out there. ;)

[shootingstar]

I only eat tofu several times per month or less. It's just normal to eat like this. :) I've always been like this

As for genetically modified foods....probably more in our different fresh foods than we realize. Unless we become a farmer, gardener.

As for what people say about soy...if I can give the opposite: I hardly eat any butter in my food. Maybe several times on rolls per month. I go for months without butter..and bacon, etc. That's it. I don't think I'm missing much....a huge part of the world survived without butter for a looooong time. It doesn't exist in some of the traditional cuisines.

[emily_in_nc]

I never worry about sodium content of soy sauce or in anything else, for that matter. I have low blood pressure and always have. My 78-year old mother does as well. Seems to run in the family. That said, I don't care for really salty foods and don't eat a lot of salt, but occasional soy sauce on broccoli or whatever, I don't worry about. Should I? Is there a reason to worry about salt other than blood pressure? I should add that I sweat heavily when I work out (and where I've been living for 18+ months, it's usually hot, so I sweat hard every day).

[Owlie]

As far as I know, the only concern with a high-sodium diet is blood pressure. Since you have low blood pressure and sweat a lot, you're probably fine.


Now I want sushi. I suppose I'll make do with daikon radish sprinkled with soy sauce, though.

[Blueberry]

As far as I know, the only concern with a high-sodium diet is blood pressure. Since you have low blood pressure and sweat a lot, you're probably fine.


Now I want sushi. I suppose I'll make do with daikon radish sprinkled with soy sauce, though.

mmmmm......sushi.....

This (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/257319.php) is an interesting new study (has been reported many places). They are claiming a link between excess salt consumption and auto-immune disorders. Don't know how much credence to put in it - but it is interesting. DH forwarded it to me to try to stop my salt-eating ways;) I do like salt, but since I cook most of my food, I still expect I eat less than average.

[shootingstar]

Hey Emily, my mother has high blood pressure..that's why she had to cut down on her salt intake.

A traditional Chinese meal uses soy sauce....nearly every meal. That's why the amount has to be VERY small for each meal. Otherwise it's like the salt shaker habit for dishes already salted. As I have said before elsewhere, her dishes still taste "Chinese" to me because of type of other ingredients and cooking techniques.

And no, I never add more soy sauce when I am ready to eat the dish after it's served to me at the table,... when a particular Asian dish has already been cooked with abit of soy sauce. I can tell..by various cooking techniques or by taste/visual look.

Frankly I never fully understood the whole craze over tofu. But I shrugged off as something that maybe I was too blind ...because I had it as a kid and never thought much about it. And I never really thought about eating a lot of tofu as a replacement for something else. I already have skim milk in my daily diet. Remember, I grew up in Canada and had milk daily as part of my diet also.

My parents have made the diet adjustments for their children when they immigrated, for very calculated reasons: they did want their children to have the benefit of drinking milk.

The reason why I don't have much tofu now, is that I find the tofu abit expensive in Calgary ....and less brand choices compared to Vancouver...

I don't drink soy milk because a lot brands seem to have cane sugar. So I go to skim cow's milk..

But I do enjoy a lovely tofu cooked dish with veggies..

[Owlie]

mmmmm......sushi.....

This (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/257319.php) is an interesting new study (has been reported many places). They are claiming a link between excess salt consumption and auto-immune disorders. Don't know how much credence to put in it - but it is interesting. DH forwarded it to me to try to stop my salt-eating ways;) I do like salt, but since I cook most of my food, I still expect I eat less than average.

Hm, it is Nature, so I'm inclined to give it a little more weight. I'm too lazy to log on to my school's VPN or library thingy so I can read it right now, though.

I'm in the same boat. I don't eat a whole ton of processed foods (my main high-Na vices are olives, salt-and-vinegar kettle chips, the occasional Chipotle burrito and whatever I end up getting at the student union if I forget my lunch (it's not salad, since I have no desire to get food poisoning)). In addition, my mom doesn't put a whole lot of salt in anything (sometimes to the detriment of the dish), so my "why is this so salty?!" threshold for things that are not olives or kettle chips is lower than average. Unless I'm baking (when things need to be more precise), I don't look at the amount that the recipe says to add. I just season with everything else, then taste, sprinkle with salt, stir, taste again... until it tastes right.

[Eden]

Well..... Okinawans have, I think, about the highest life expectancy in the world and eat a diet high in soy...

[KerryCrow]

Just thought I would add to the conversation about soy...I agree with the "moderation" comments. Soy got a bad rap some years back, kind of like eggs. And yes I would make sure to go organic with it, but it's not the devil.

I enjoy the info and videos on this site. The good doctor presents everything with a vegan perspective (which I am not) so the paleo folks will disagree with what he has to say about meat...but his clips are usually well researched and documented. Here's what he has to say about soy: (coconut oil is covered extensively as well)

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-much-soy-is-too-much/

[OakLeaf]

Well..... Okinawans have, I think, about the highest life expectancy in the world and eat a diet high in soy...

And that's the trouble with reductionist approaches. If there's even a true correlation between those two observations, it's also influenced by Okinawans' air, water, genetics, and the rest of their diet - all things that aren't shared by everyone who consumes large amounts of one particular component of Okinawans' diet.

Until quite recently, maybe even currently, doctors used to trot out cancer rates in Ramsar, Iran - where background radiation is extremely high - to "prove" that exposing other populations to radiation is perfectly safe. That's all being debunked now, but not before a lot of people developed cancer and other health problems from unnecessary CT scans, among other things. (Notice how they're taking the backscatter radiation machines out of airports too and claiming it's because of privacy concerns, right.)

We live in a synergistic world. Part of the lesson of that is that reductionist approaches to anything, ultimately turn out to have limited value in the real world. There's no magic food, and there's no demon food either (absent anaphylactic-type allergies, and with the big caveat that most people WILL benefit from eating super clean for an extended period of time). There's no lobby for a Varied Diet, so we're perpetually getting messages about this or that magic food.

I'm not that great about it either, but there are many, many reasons NOT to eat the same thing more than once or twice a week, whatever that same thing might be. And many, many reasons to eat real food always and avoid food-like substances with packaging and labels.

[Thorn]

Just thought I would add to the conversation about soy...I agree with the "moderation" comments. Soy got a bad rap some years back, kind of like eggs. And yes I would make sure to go organic with it, but it's not the devil.

I enjoy the info and videos on this site. The good doctor presents everything with a vegan perspective (which I am not) so the paleo folks will disagree with what he has to say about meat...but his clips are usually well researched and documented. Here's what he has to say about soy: (coconut oil is covered extensively as well)

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-much-soy-is-too-much/

+1 on this site. Sure, the doc is vegan and so has a specific point of view, but he can cite juried medical studies to support his points; in fact the videos are really just meta-research. And, if the study may be flawed (e.g., oh, say, a "benefit of milk" study funded by the dairy council or a "benefit of nuts" study funded by Diamond walnuts), he points out that the results may be suspect.

[Eden]

Indeed Oak - my point simply was that it likely isn't an "evil" food... otherwise all those Okinawans would be suffering from osteoporosis, cancer and the like.... There are other things in their lifestyle that are very relevant to life span (low stress being one of them).

[shootingstar]

I read the book on the Okinawan diet...and medical research they did on the seniors by following them through the years. I read this over decade ago. It's actually the only book which I could relate dimly in terms of any diet that they described only because I had some dim (very dim) comparisons on an predominantly Asian diet that against what I grew up ...but totally different in Canada and with milk in my diet. :D (Ah, assimilation can be a good thing..)

Okinawan diet really is not that mysterious in terms of other influential factors: eat only 80% full, little meat in their diet (though I believe there may be more seafood in their diet), very little sugar in their diet (oh come on, Asian cuisines are NOT known for their desserts in traditional diet), lower fat in many of their dishes, daily physical activity, spiritual sense of something greater than themselves (helps lower stress and not get overly depressed), social network of friends that helped one another (very important..unlike my parents. I wish my parents were more socialable. ) They did show that the younger generation who ate some more fast/processed foods may have more health problems.

I bought a tub of fresh tofu ..today. :D As I said earlier, only a few times per month or less. I'm such a lazy slug in certain areas and penny pincher...(more expensive than Vancouver's prices). Would I refuse a tofu dish if someone offered it to me? No way... It's almost like a comfort ingredient for me.

I'm sure I'm doing more damage by eating several coffee sweet snacks per week.

[Miranda]

Thanks ladies for that additional feedback.:)

[zoom-zoom]

I avoid soy as much as possible, simply because I have endometriosis and the last thing I want is to add any extra estrogen to my system. Perhaps when menopause hits I will be less concerned about estrogen-containing foods.