talk me down off the ledge, please

[GLC1968]

As many of you know, I have a full head of grey hair and I am 44 years old. I tried to go my natural grey at 40 but I only lasted about 5 months before I gave in to societal pressure and colored it again.

About 6 months ago, I cut my hair super short to go grey once more and I've been wearing it that way fairly happily since. I am trying to grow it out but I've been careful about keeping it trimmed so that I have a style and not just a crazy mop of greyness. Usually, I'm ok with it (though I have rethought a few things I wear as colors look decidedly different on me now) but every once in awhile something happens to make me question it. A few weeks ago, I had to travel to TX on business and I felt a distinct difference in how people there treated me vs how people here treat me. There, I was treated as an older lady. I can't quite explain it but it just felt different.

Anyway, I've been back in the Portland area for a week or so and I tend to forget that I'm grey. Well, last night at work I was helping a coworker with a new system. I was showing him something on my computer screen and directly behind my screen to the right are 4 photos. 3 are of me and my husband (one taken last Jan, one about 3 years ago and one from our wedding which was almost 10 years ago) and 1 is of my parents. This coworker (who is late 30's himself...so not a too young to know better), sees the photos and says 'oh, are these your children?'

WHAT?!?!

I laughed it off, said "no...those are photos of me and my husband" and that was the end of it....but holy cow! I know I don't look old enough to have 40 year old children if you look at my face but it's comments like this that make me want to color my hair. This guy has no 'filter' and I don't take offense at all, but if he is haphazardly saying what others are probably thinking, I can't help but question my decision to make myself appear older to the world. Ugh - I don't want to color my hair anymore but I'm already tired of people judging me so wrongly for something so easily fixed. I'm so torn. I LIKE being different, but I wish that my version of 'different' didn't come with preconceived notions. So, should I color again?

Maybe I should just get pissed that society has determined that women can't be grey until they are in their 60's. :mad:

[luvmyguys]

No advice, but I have a friend who was grey in her late 20's/early 30's, before her first child was even born. So you're not alone!

I vote for just getting ticked off about the assumptions of society.

[spokewench]

You should do what you feel comfortable doing. If it bothers you, color it. If it does not bother you, leave it alone. Only you can know whether other people's opinions affect you adversely or not

[OakLeaf]

Ugh. A law school classmate of mine was grey before she was 30. She didn't color then, and I haven't seen her in person since her wedding about five years after we graduated. I just googled out of curiosity. Yep, she colors now. :rolleyes:

Maybe you could do a temporary color to try it back on again - see how you feel about it at this point in your life - then get a "real" salon color if you want to stay with it?

You can color and STILL get ticked off by society, you know. ;)

[shootingstar]

I can't offer truest experience, GLC because I haven't gotten grey alot. Just a few grey strands among black hair.

You need to feel most comfortable. However for your job, it can't be a terrible thing to have some grey hair since personnel recruitment does require an experienced person ...and someone who looks fit/healthy helps enormously. If people already know that your former experience is engineering hands-on, an engineering degree PLUS other stuff, you would be a role model/mentor to others...particular for women in engineering positions. I worked in several organizations (public sector and large global firm), where licensed female engineers with demonstrated engineering experience, savvy plus defined LIFE experience do tend to be respected by their male engineering counterparts. Just a personal observation.

GLC, think of someone who is non-white, what they might have to do express themselves to counteract stereotyping of ie. not being born in North America, when they are. This is why if later I am judged by being older/ageism..... I can't worry about it much. Because I've judged negatively (based on comments to my face) in the past wrongly based on other visual cues.

But great that you have taken steps to "try out" greyness.

[Crankin]

Well, I will agree that in certain part of the country, you will be treated more on superficial looks.
That said, I've made it clear that I color my hair (although I don't have more than a few strands of gray) at almost 60 and I plan to continue doing it for the foreseeable future. I think I look good for my age the way I am now and I like the fact that my co-workers usually guess my age as anywhere between 45 and 50. This is important to me, as they are all about 30-35, with the exception of my boss, who is 40. I have enough other stuff that makes me look "mature," and I think gray would make me look old. My personal opinion is that unless someone my age has perfect skin, gray makes you look old.
Now, I've met you GLC, and you certainly don't look old! However, your hair was brown, and I am trying to picture you with gray. What about going lighter? I have a friend with hair about your color and she had considerable gray. She now gets lots of blonde highlights, it blends in well, and it looks great on her. She's my age and it doesn't look "fake."
I know people have strong feelings about this issue, and you can call me vain. I think looks *are* important in the business world. Of course, I would never comment on someone's pictures like that dumb azz guy, but I won't be one to talk you down.

[TrekDianna]

I think you should do what makes you happy and what makes you feel better about yourself. I've never cared what people thought about me :) I've always been too much of a renegade my entire life and if you look at the things I have run off to do and the adventures I've had...I've earned the gray I have. I actually like my gray. I have streaks in the front. I wouldn't change them at all.

[Possegal]

I feel for you. I've said here before how my mother was completely grey at 16, so when I started to go in my teens, she didn't have a lot of sympathy. :) People started describing my hair as salt and pepper in my mid 20s, and by my mid 30s I was pretty much all grey. I die it, and I make no apology for it. (and yes, on this board and others, there are some very strong opinions about hair coloring ;) ) I've also got some serious 'smile lines' (at least that's what they were in my 20s now they look a lot like wrinkles.) And my excess weight always makes me look older.

So now I deal with people thinking I'm 10 yrs older than I am, when I used to have people thinking I was 10 yrs younger. And when the roots grow in, it is worse. Need to touch them up now in fact.

No easy answers. Coloring it can be a pain. I agree with the idea of looking into coloring it but a lighter color. My grey-haired-old mother (what my dad always called her, very affectionately!) always said that once you stop coloring it and let it be gray, it is hard to go back to a darker color and you should look to something light but not grey. She'd say that your coloring changes. Probably an old wives tale, but she was one, so there is that.

Sorry that you're on the ledge. Just saying I feel your pain!

[smilingcat]

I'm sorry but I had a very good laugh. You forget my dear, you are working with bunch of ENGINEERS!! Bunch of social nit wits, a big social ZEROS. Take it with a grain of salt. Remember what HR people have to say about engineers, bunch of socially inept people social IQ is in the single digit.

FYI, I have a big streak of grey so much so that if Pepe Le Pew was around, he might fall madly in love with me or I could be a sister or cousin of Cruela DeVille. My silver grey is so strong and such sharp contrast that coloring was not an option. You could see a strong line across the hair where it grew out. Lot of it has to do with how you feel about yourself and how you project your self. Be the confident, happy self and that is what people will see. If you project a tired and worn out person, they will see that and see an old lady.

My partner is in her 60's but routinely, she is mistaken for someone 10 years younger.

Do what makes you and your husband happy.

[shootingstar]

This is just a side story of something that did happen coincidentally today:

For the first time, the manager decided to celebrate several employees' birthdays during this month. I was one of them (I turn 54 next wk.). But I didn't announce what my age was nor were others initially aware that my birthday fell in January.

However I did tell my supervisor when she was hired 6 months ago.....I dunno..why but I did mention I was over 50. She has my resume plus my graduating year of 2nd university degree. One could guess..sort of. 1-2 times in the past, she referred to me as "missy", which honest, I chose to ignore her. I think she realized her mistake.

Today, she was also another employee with birthday in same month along with 4 others. She made it clear...several times in fact within a span of 2 hrs., that she turned 50 this month. Not sure why she had to tell all of us. I don't think we cared in the end. She did choose to colour her hair 6 months ago to cover some blonde-white greyness. Contradictory, don't you think? Some people wanting to assert their seniority for certain social situations vs. whatever.

[Bike Writer]

GLC, well I'm not going to talk you on or off of it as others have so aptly stated it's your decision. Having said that, your story is compelling me to not even think about the ledge. I've been having a wild idea over the last couple of months wondering what it might be like to quit coloring and just go grey. You story and observations over how you feel others are and have treated you is enough for me to crawl back into the cave and forget about getting near a ledge. You said when you were out of town that others were treating you as being older, those people didn't know the colored hair you, so their perspective is different.

I began graying early, just like my mom. She was snow white at 40 and I was born, she began coloring her hair after that. I'm assuming that people mistook me for her grandchild and that is what prompted her, but I don't know for sure. At this point I'm just glad to have hair at all. I lost it all to chemo in my 20's, it grew back thick as ever but with the meds I've taken for my RA and my last surgery I've gone through a spell of thinning.

[lph]

Aww, GLC, that sucks. You know I've gone grey as well. It varies how I feel about it, on good days I feel awesome, on bad days I feel like a frump.

I've only skimmed the thread fast so I'm probably repeating someone. But anyway: for some strange, obscure reason we probably will be laughing at in a few decades, women are not expected to have grey hair unless they're "old". No matter if they naturally grey at 20, 30 or whatever. And "old" is something every woman is supposed to dread. (What happened to "grown-up" or "adult", anyway? Why do we all want to be "young"? We spend many more years being just adults than being "young" or "old".)
It's dumb, and has nothing to do with reality. We scarcely even dare to say the word old, it's elderly, or senior or something else wishy-washy. So going grey is a bit like not trying to hide or enhance small boobs, or not trying to cover up wrinkles, or in the case of my dh, working part-time "even though" you're a man - you're doing something that's not quite what society expects and there will ALWAYS be dumb people jumping to dumb conclusions.

But for every dumb guy who thinks you have 40 year old kids (I mean, REALLY?! |-D) there are 15 women who pass you daily thinking "dang! She looked pretty hot with grey hair, and she's not old. She's just like me, actually. Maybe I could do that too."

And for all you know that guy is the guy everybody thinks is hopeless because he's always jumping to stupid and wrong conclusions, or maybe he went home that day and confessed to his wife that he did something really stupid that day.

So, do we look older or not? People will not stop thinking that grey looks older than not-grey until many many more people go naturally grey. That's just automatic assumptions because of how we were all brought up and there's nothing we can do about it. But you know - I know some pretty awesome people who are in their 60's. I'm 42. I should be trying to be more like them, not less. And there's nothing wrong with a semipermanent hair colouring either.

We should have a "it's none of your business what colour hair I have-day", and colour it all purple :rolleyes:

[goldfinch]

Very good post lph.

I am gray and I look old. I am 58. Part of the reason I look old is that I lost a lot of weight and my face is more wrinkled than it was before I lost weight. People probably think I am older than I am. I try to embrace being older and think of myself as a good example of what you can be like as a retired person.

I never even thought of coloring my hair until reading some of the similar threads on the forum. Now I kind of want to try it just to see what it would be like. I seriously doubt I would stick with it.

We can all do what we want with this. There are so many societal and business pressures that whatever choice a person makes is beyond criticism to me.

[lph]

btw, for a style icon you could do a lot worse than Norwegian writer Hanne Ørstavik:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanne_%C3%98rstavik

I'm not sure how the first letter of her last name turns out, it's an O with a slash through it. But google her name for more photos if you can. She has been grey since her early twenties and looks absolutely smoking fantastic.

It helps having a great haircut and being thin and waiflike, of course ;-)

[Crankin]

I guess I'm Peter Pan....
I am happy with who I am inside, I just don't want to look/be thought of as old. I am not sure if this really is a woman thing. My DH feels even more strongly than I do about this. I appreciate having wisdom, but I just hate it when I get the condescending voice when someone thinks he or she is speaking to an older person who has no brains.

[lph]

Actually, I just thought of something. When you see a guy from behind with no hair or a very short buzzcut - do you think old or young? Or do you wait until you see his face?

When I was growing up bald men were old, period. Now very short hair or bald heads are all the rage, over here at least, so it's just as likely that a bald guy is his twenties as in his sixties. Just something to ponder. Times do change.

[OakLeaf]

when someone thinks he or she is speaking to an older person who has no brains.

And there you have it. We're really talking about two separate things here.

The idea that older women are worth less than older men.

And the idea that older people have no brains.

(My personal stereotype, that I do try to fight but still find myself involuntarily holding, is that older people have no manners. But I think that if I had to go around all day with people assuming I had no brains, I'd lose my manners pretty quickly.)

[Artista]

I also have some gray that mostly blends into my medium brown hair. I used to highlight my hair to ensure that the gray wasn't apparent. I grew weary of the time and expense involved in highlighting and decided to spend less time in the stylist's chair and more time on my bike. I'm not entirely comfortable with the gray and sometimes consider highlighting again. The last time I considered it was when you posted the picture of yourself after going totally gray and cutting your hair short. I thought that you looked so darn cute that I decided to leave my own hair alone.

So to whomever posted about you being an unwitting inspiration to other women, +1!

[lauraelmore1033]

Ha! don't get me started! People have been asking if my husband is my son since I was 28--well before I had any hairs even thinking about going grey. We are the same age, by the way. Societal attitudes about women and age and weight and attractiveness have always been a hot button for me. Do to your hair whatever makes YOU feel attractive and pay no mind to what the clueless think.

[SheFly]

GLC - GET OFF THE LEDGE! :D

You know me - same age as you, and gray hair. Also short. I've met you, and you DO NOT LOOK OLD! I've seen pics of you with gray hair - still not old. Ultimately, you have to do what feels best for you. Do I get agitated when the nitwits at the grocery store call me ma'am? Yes, but I let it slide off.

I am happy with who I am. I like my hair the way it is (low fuss, no muss, and NO MAINTENANCE). I know that you are happy with who you are - you just have to get to a point where what others think doesn't bother you.

I think your hair is cute. You off the ledge yet????

SheFly

[GLC1968]

Thank you everyone! You all have helped me immensely.

When I went back and reread my post (after the emotions had dissipated) the part that stuck out was when I wrote "I LIKE being different". I do. Even if that means that people don't 'get' me. Like someone else mentioned, I've spent my life being mistaken for 10 - 15 years younger than I am, so it's a pretty big shift to now be mistaken for someone older. I've laughed out loud walking through airports when guys who are my fathers age eye me like 'hey, hot woman my own age'. I don't take offense...I just find it hilarious!

similingcat - this guy was not an engineer...he's a recruiter and actually has quite good social skills even if he is a few cards short of a full deck. I suppose I could take the direction that I look age appropriate now, but 9 years ago, I looked significantly younger. Maybe I looked early 20's in my wedding photo to him? Yeah, that's it! ;) See! Compliment!!

LPH - thanks for your thoughts and for posting that woman's name. I have a collection of images of women with grey hair that I've saved over the years as inspiration and I'll definitely add her. I'm tired of Jamie Lee Curtis references! Actually, my mom is half Norwegian and she's where I get my grey hair so it's kind of appropriate. My mom had a grey streak in her HS graduation photo but she's blonde so it's not as obvious as my dark hair. My mom is now 100% natural (at 71) and it's platinum/white. I hope I'm white soon as I LOVE the white part of my hair. It's so edgy and such a HUGE contrast to my skin and eye color (again, I'm dark while my mom is green-eyed).

SheFly - thank you. You still remain one of my inspirations, so I appreciate the pep talk!

Crankin - wanna see what I look like with grey hair in real life? I'm coming to Chelmsford next month! Do you (and SheFly) want to meet up again?

[Crankin]

Yes. Send me a PM with the dates... I have a short ski trip and a 2 day training next month, but hopefully, that won't interfere.
Hopefully, it will be above 12 degrees like it is today :eek:.

[GLC1968]

Hopefully, it will be above 12 degrees like it is today :eek:.

Oh, I hope so! I don't have clothes for temps like that anymore!

[Becky]

Do I get agitated when the nitwits at the grocery store call me ma'am? Yes, but I let it slide off.

Threadjack here: Perhaps they just grew up in a part of the country where "sir" and "ma'am" are respectful, regardless of age?

Back to the regularly-scheduled thread: GLC, I've only seen one or two pictures of you, but I think your hair is very striking and not "old" at all.

[lph]

If we don't see photos, it didn't happen. :-)

eta: that was in response to the meet-up posts!

[Crankin]

I absolutely hate the use of ma'm, or sir for that matter. It feels rooted in subservience. When we moved to Florida, the first time someone in a store called my mom (who was 38 and looked about 12) ma'm, she very loudly said, "Who are you talking to?"

[Irulan]

For me, whenever the internal discussion turns to hair color, the cost of color and maintaining it puts it at dead halt. For me.

[luvmyguys]

I'm sorry but I had a very good laugh. You forget my dear, you are working with bunch of ENGINEERS!! Bunch of social nit wits, a big social ZEROS. Take it with a grain of salt. Remember what HR people have to say about engineers, bunch of socially inept people social IQ is in the single digit.


Around here, engineers without people skills get eaten alive. Please, please, please don't perpetuate the (often incorrect) stereotype.

[7rider]

For some reason, talk of hair color or hairstyles always gets me thinking of The Talking Heads and "Life During Wartime".
"I changed my hairstyle, so many times now, I don't know what I look like!"
Classic!
It also reminds me of the double standard on grey hair (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/gray-hair-prejudice_n_864424.html) in men vs. women.
But then, I just colored my hair the other week, so I'm good for at least another 2 months. :rolleyes:

[GLC1968]

For some reason, talk of hair color or hairstyles always gets me thinking of The Talking Heads and "Life During Wartime".
"I changed my hairstyle, so many times now, I don't know what I look like!"
Classic!
It also reminds me of the double standard on grey hair (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/19/gray-hair-prejudice_n_864424.html) in men vs. women.
But then, I just colored my hair the other week, so I'm good for at least another 2 months. :rolleyes:

I liked that clip, thanks for posting it!

It confirmed my earlier decision. My grey is staying!

I will admit that I like my hair MUCH better when I'm cleaned up and dressed for work or for something nice...I don't like what it looks like when I've rolled out of bed or after a workout or a swim. That's probably my own concern that I look like I don't care (grey hair + sloppy look) instead of just looking like I'm 'au naturale' as might have been the case when I was younger or still a brunette. I think that speaks to one of the comments in the clip that grey = I-don't-care or I've-given-up on a woman.

This was taken last fall so the style is different now but this gives you an idea (it's lighter now too because I wear it parted the other way and my right side is much whiter than the left side):
15932

[SheFly]

I LOVE IT! Don't change it - looks awesome. Looking forward to seeing you in February - gray hair and all!

SheFly

[shootingstar]

I absolutely hate the use of ma'm, or sir for that matter. It feels rooted in subservience.

This really sounds more like certain parts of the U.S. I don't mind if somone occasionally calls me "ma'am" if they are trying to get my attention. How else should they flag down my attention if they don't know my name? :confused:

GLC, you worry too much. You look chic. :)

[OakLeaf]

You look fabulous. Quit worrying!

[indysteel]

You look fabulous. Quit worrying!

+1! Honestly, you look fabulous. I think the grey is very flattering with your complexion.

[emily_in_nc]

I think you look great, GLC. The haircut and color are very becoming with your complexion, glasses, etc. I wonder if the not liking how you look with the gray at times has as much to do with the length of your hair as the color, because I had that short a cut for a very short time when I was in my late 30s (and coloring/highlighting my hair). When I had on earrings, makeup, and a nice blouse, I thought I looked pretty darn good, but when I rolled out of bed on the weekends and went out to do my gardening sans any of the above, I felt like I looked like a boy -- not flattering at all, even though my hair was colored. I grew my hair out because of that -- I just felt that the short cut made me look too masculine if I didn't have makeup/earrings on.

I stopped coloring several years ago, as I've said here before, but I am not really salt and pepper; my natural color now (much to my surprise since I'd been coloring it since age 25) is a mixture of light blonde, medium brown (more in the back), and white (more in the front). From a distance it reads a bit more blonde than gray because there's none of the "steel" color in it that people who have had really dark hair naturally, like you, tend to get. If I had known it looked like this, I would have gone natural decades ago. I just think of all the money and time I wasted trying to cover up what little gray was there at the time. At times I miss being blonder like when I colored and know I could shave 5 years off my age (at least) if I colored again, but it's still not worth it to me since I think my hair looks fine as it is. (It is lighter than in my avatar now because I'm older and because it was wet in that photo.)

Like you, I like being different.

[malkin]

For me, whenever the internal discussion turns to hair color, the cost of color and maintaining it puts it at dead halt. For me.

Me too.
I kind of want to dread my grey mop top, but...really... I always seem to have something better to do than do my hair, so I just keep not getting around to it.

[IBrakeforPastry]

I'm sorry but I had a very good laugh. You forget my dear, you are working with bunch of ENGINEERS!! Bunch of social nit wits, a big social ZEROS. Take it with a grain of salt. Remember what HR people have to say about engineers, bunch of socially inept people social IQ is in the single digit.



After a personally rough year, I was hoping to get back into the swing of things, getting out and socializing more. But maybe if I'm a big zero, I shouldn't bother. I'll take this comment with a grain of salt, too, hoping it was just an inside joke between you and the OP.

[lph]

I share a house and a life with an engineer, work with engineers, and according to my job description I am one too, and I laughed - it's just how we describe ourselves too, more adept at figuring out how things work than how people work. Just a joke about stereotypes :-)

[Crankin]

In regards to the comments about engineers. My DH is a director of a division of a company that makes software for engineers and scientists (as well as several other fields). He's responsible for about 300 engineers, mathematicians, or scientists who support the sales people, world wide. He describes himself as the business guy who makes sure all of the geniuses are OK. The nature of the work these people do requires excellent social and communication skills, and from what he describes, it is very difficult to find people who have those skills and some very technical/specialized engineering skills. These are not people who generally stay in the development end of the field. So, it may be a stereotype, but there is truth in it. I hear a lot of stories, as one of my DH's main responsibilities is making sure the positions are all filled. Since the company is doing very well, it's a lot of pressure, as it is very hard for him to find good people.
Social skills are important in any job...

[shootingstar]

I think there is a bit of difference knowing a group of engineers /working in an engineering environment vs. knowing personally engineers -- my dearie is one (civil) and also has his MBA so his roles moved from engineering to management. Plus I have a brother-in-law who has a PhD in engineering and teaches several courses at an Ontario university, plus is associate chair for his faculty, etc. Both of these guys enjoy art, architecture and literature (alot of civil/structural engineers are wannabe architects but just couldn't master artistic side properly. It's an inside joke within these engineering disciplines.). Some play musical instruments, not all engineers are dolts.

I worked on a major construction engineering project where my impressions with pics are here (http://cyclewriteblog.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/drama-at-construction-sites-things-i-never-knew/). I am not an engineer but had jobs working in engineering organizations. There is a real distinctly "male" ambiance at a construction site...even if most of the guys are nice/polite. We had very few female engineers (less than 10%) and none of them were in supervisory roles. In such work environments, one doesn't feel like wearing a dress or skirt often. I got tired of having a thin film of construction dust on my dress pants...

For a female engineer in such environments, better to look pragmatic rather than overly fragile looking, or too frou-frou looking if you want the guys to take you seriously. There similarities to cycling world: it's how you act, perform and speak, never mind the grey hair, lines...

[luvmyguys]

Dh and I are chemical engineers by degree (I'm a stay at home mom right now, though). We live in an area where over half of all white collar jobs require an engineering background, and in a plant setting, you have to know how to get along with non-engineering types just to do your job. As such, I haven't found that stereotype to be as true as others. There are non-social types, obviously, as there are in any field.

[luvmyguys]

I worked on a major construction engineering project where my impressions with pics are here (http://cyclewriteblog.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/drama-at-construction-sites-things-i-never-knew/). I am not an engineer but had jobs working in engineering organizations. There is a real distinctly "male" ambiance at a construction site...even if most of the guys are nice/polite. We had very few female engineers (less than 10%) and none of them were in supervisory roles. In such work environments, one doesn't feel like wearing a dress or skirt often. I got tired of having a thin film of construction dust on my dress pants...

For a female engineer in such environments, better to look pragmatic rather than overly fragile looking, or too frou-frou looking if you want the guys to take you seriously. There similarities to cycling world: it's how you act, perform and speak, never mind the grey hair, lines...

We had to hang out with the more, um, rural of folk - we called it the "huntin' and fishin' crowd". I did have to overcome some of the female bias with some of the old timers, especially with one guy who supervised some of the operators and wanted to know why I didn't just go be a secretary for my dad.

But yeah, you had to prove you weren't a shrinking flower. Being on the fire team and a tower rat helped. :)

[GLC1968]

Yes, there is some bit of an inside joke to the original statement from smilingcat, so please engineers...don't take it personally.

I am an engineer as well (BSEE & MSEE), but a year and a half ago, I took a role in HR. Now I run our college program, so I am a constant link between academia, engineers and the rest of the world. I can tell you that even though there are a large % of engineers that do have good social skills, there is a very, very distinct difference in the way engineers communicate and the way say marketing or HR people communicate. And this is coming from a high tech engineering based company!

As a recruiter, I will say that universities these days ARE listening to industry and engineers are absolutely getting a more well-rounded educational experience than even a decade ago. Graduates are expected to have good written and verbal communication skills and they are expected to work well in group situations. That said, those groups are with other engineers, so it's not quite the same as asking an engineer to explain a product to some end-users.

While yes, it is a stereotype, there is absolutely some truth to it. If there weren't, Big Bang Theory wouldn't be winning Emmy's!

[azfiddle]

Late to this post but you look great!

I have colored my hair since my mid-30's when the gray got really noticeable. But I am a middle-school teacher in a district that really seems value youth more than maturity at times and also play music with a couple of bands and prefer not to be gray-haired as a performer.

It's a pain to dye my hair and I have to do it every 3-4 weeks. Love the look if my stylist does it, but I can't afford it that often.

[emily_in_nc]

While yes, it is a stereotype, there is absolutely some truth to it. If there weren't, Big Bang Theory wouldn't be winning Emmy's!

Absolutely. I was a software engineer for the majority of my career (though I don't have an "engineering" degree -- actually a BA in Psychology, a year of clinical psych grad school, and a post-baccalaureate computer programming certificate). I worked with other software engineers, hardware engineers, and mechanical engineers. A few had excellent social skills, but a large number fit the stereotype of nerd, geek, whatever -- very smart but socially awkward. A few were downright strange birds or odd ducks. I took the comment as funny and (mostly) true. :D

And I heart the Big Bang Theory!

[shootingstar]

I can tell you that even though there are a large % of engineers that do have good social skills, there is a very, very distinct difference in the way engineers communicate and the way say marketing or HR people communicate. And this is coming from a high tech engineering based company!

And to make this cycling related... dearie rails against engineers designing cycling infrastructure without much thought to the human experience at all. Instead some stick rigidly to technical guidelines, etc. without wanting to consider that maybe the techical guidelines weren't good enough for cyclists in the first place.

Yes, true about self-expression of many engineers is different from marketing folks. Again, don't ask a group of engineers to promote cycling infrastructure to wannabe cyclists and general masses. (I'm being a bit facetious here..) ;)

[Blueberry]

GLC -

I think you look great! I love the cut - and the color looks great on you!!

Here's a Different Perspective (http://www.thedailybeast.com/galleries/2012/01/28/kelly-osbourne-kate-moss-other-young-celebrities-who-go-gray-photos.html) (not great link, but I had heard of the trend and wanted to send it to you). I have a friend locally who is close to your age, and a very steely gray. She looks beautiful! I do think it's 1) where you are (my town is more progressive than most) and 2) some people (regardless of profession) lack social skills:)

Hang in there!! I'll prolly PM you, as there's a (pie in the sky but might happen) plan to visit Portland and Seattle sometime this spring.