OMG USADA Lance etc

[malkin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-ends-fight-against-doping-charges-losing-his-7-tour-de-france-titles.html?pagewanted=all


Lance may be stripped of all TdF titles.

[ny biker]

His official statement.

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events/lance-armstongs-statement-of-august-23-2012

[smilingcat]

sometimes, I wonder about USADA. I don't like them!

Jurisdiction issues are really big sticking point for me. There is UCI, so why does USADA think it has the authority to tell other sports organization on what to do.

I also am not sure about how clean Lance is but if he managed to not get caught after so many suprise visits by the vampires and all, I have to give him more than reasonable doubt.

[jessmarimba]

I think it's going to hurt the Tour more than Lance himself. This proves nothing - his fans will stick around and his enemies will hate him anyway. But revoking 10 titles since 96 is going to kill all respect for the results of the TdF.

[redrhodie]

So who wins? I think every second placer has also been implicated in doping scandals.

What a mess.

[Geonz]

I think that basically, folks who thought he was clean will still think he was clean and those who doubted will continue to doubt... and it's not as if people are going to forget those seven titles no matter what the "official" guys say. I think it's a smart move on Lance's part -- time to move on!

[katluvr]

I think it's going to hurt the Tour more than Lance himself. This proves nothing - his fans will stick around and his enemies will hate him anyway. But revoking 10 titles since 96 is going to kill all respect for the results of the TdF.

I agree, it solves nothing but makes things a mess. We know he won tours when others clearly were doping. So IF he doped, wasn't it a level playing field. I want to believe he did not dope. And even if he did, could you really dope for that long and still be that good? Wouldn't it eventually mess you up one way or another? Or get so that you can't really keep "out performing"?

I'm sure this will eventually be a controversial thread.

K

[shootingstar]

Whether or not one always was a Lance or fan or not, this clearly confuses and tarnishes the Tour /other big competitive international cycling races.

We know someone who competed in Europe when he lived there for a few years..... doping was common among the racers. This was awhile back. Did he dope? Yes.

[lovelygamer]

I don't agree that him dropping the fight against them, admits guilt. I also don't agree that they should be allowed to ban him for life when he has never been convicted.

[Dogmama]

I also am not sure about how clean Lance is but if he managed to not get caught after so many suprise visits by the vampires and all, I have to give him more than reasonable doubt.

I'm not sure. If he's using EPO, wouldn't he just need it for the races? So a surprise visit, mid year, would turn up zero, right?

I completely understand him wanted to end it. But also consider that the investigation was going to make a completely different turn and many of his teammates were prepared to testify against him. For a man of Armstrong's ego, this could be devastating. I've found Armstrong quite fascinating and have read a lot about him. He is driven and fanatical about protecting his reputation. He has used his clout to get his way when he was criticized, e.g., the Lemond/Armstrong feud that resulted in Lemond apologizing publically - and in return Lance would not withdraw his support of Trek bicycles.

Not long ago, a U.S. district judge in Austin threw out Armstrong's lawsuit against the USADA because it was basically 80 pages of propoganda designed to influence the public opinion on his case. You'd think that Armstrong with his legal team would know better.

Did he do it? I tend to think yes. Armstrong would talk about his exceptional VO2max, but when tested it was found to be about the same for most professional cyclists. Why would Armstrong, given his zeal for managing his publicity, associate with Ferrari? Why is LA Confidential only published in French? Why are there no teammates coming forward to profess his innocence? Armstrong has the means and motive to dope and cover it up. Ferrari was accused of combining testosterone & olive oil because it makes testosterone undetectable. Armstrong was found to have paid Ferrari almost a half a million dollars in 2006 but supposedly their relationship ended in 2002.

Still, it does taint the sport very badly.

[denda]

I have always believed he was doping, but so were most others. So to me that makes it a level playing field. This doesn't take away from the amazing wins in my eyes.
By the way, I don't like Lance, but I think it is too late to me doing this!

[jessmarimba]

Ugh, I forgot - Johan still has an arbitration hearing coming up. Still a chance for messy, dirty legal proceedings.

[Owlie]

I'm not a particular fan of Lance. I'm also not surprised that he stopped fighting over it--the whole process has got to be wearing. I think he was doping, but then, so was everyone else. It just seems like a matter of trying to make an example of him.

[malkin]

So who wins? I think every second placer has also been implicated in doping scandals.

What a mess.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[redrhodie]

Here are the second place finishers:

1999 Alex Zulle, 2000 Jan Ullrich, 2001 Jan Ullrich, 2002 Joseba Belocki, 2003 Jan Ullrich, 2004 Andreas Kloden, 2005 Ivan Basso.

Ullrich and Basso were both suspended for doping, but I don't know about the other guys. It will be interesting to see how this affects the outcome.

But I'll never think that Lance didn't win.

[sirenizzed]

Personally, I feel after 500 tests with nothing it is a witch hunt. In competition testing as well as out of competition testing, all negative. Offering leniency to admitted dopers in exchange for testimony against lance, doesnt seem like a truth mission. was he doping? maybe. I dont know. NOne of us really do. LA will always be a 7x Tour Winner in my mind. No matter what they decide.

on another note regarding the USADA. Hope Solo tested positive for banned substances 2 weeks before the olympics. The USADA slapped her on the wrist and let her compete. Should Team USA have their gold medals taken away? Just a thought.

[Charlieggo]

sometimes, I wonder about USADA. I don't like them!

Jurisdiction issues are really big sticking point for me. There is UCI, so why does USADA think it has the authority to tell other sports organization on what to do.

I also am not sure about how clean Lance is but if he managed to not get caught after so many suprise visits by the vampires and all, I have to give him more than reasonable doubt.

I agree. What good will come of stripping all these titles from the past? If competitors passed the dope tests at the time, they should keep their medals and the sport should move on. All this does is make the Tour results a joke. The anti-doping agencies should concentrate on cleaning up the sport from now on and leave the past in the past.

[jessmarimba]

Here are the second place finishers:

1999 Alex Zulle, 2000 Jan Ullrich, 2001 Jan Ullrich, 2002 Joseba Belocki, 2003 Jan Ullrich, 2004 Andreas Kloden, 2005 Ivan Basso.

Ullrich and Basso were both suspended for doping, but I don't know about the other guys. It will be interesting to see how this affects the outcome.

But I'll never think that Lance didn't win.

Stolen from elsewhere (2nd place finishers):

1999: Alex Zulle, who admitted to taking EPO as part of the Festina affair. On 28 November 1998, Zülle’s haematocrit was found to be 52.3%, 2.3% over the limit.

2000, 2001, 2003: Jan Ullrich was found guilty of a doping offence by the CAS. He was retroactively banned from August 22, 2011, and all results gained since May 2005 were also removed from his Palmares.

2002: Joseba Beloki was among those implicated in Operación Puerto and was withdrawn from the 2006 Tour de France.

2004: Andreas Kloden. In 2009 allegations emerged claiming that Andreas Klöden used the Freiburg University Clinic for an illegal blood transfusion during the 2006 Tour de France.

2005: Ivan Basso. In 2007 he admitted he was planning to use doping and was suspended for two years.

[Sky King]

In all sports it seems we, the fans, expect new records every year thus putting immense pressure on the athletes and the teams. Sponsor pressure them to perform, trainers answer with performance enhancing stuff and there we are a vicious cycle. I don't have any answers but in part I think we, the fans, need to say enough is enough and let's see results based on fitness, health and strength.

[gnat23]

USADA arbitration court has a pretty skewed record *against* the defending athletes, something like 2 to 50. With pretty much any shred of evidence that holds water against Lance, he'd be most likely taken down as guilty. Had this argument been held in a federal court, like Bonds and Clemens, he'd have a better chance of being acquitted on some technicality.

But instead, by just quitting the whole deal without admitting guilt and without having himself and his foundation dragged through the mud, he can get this:
"But I'll never think that Lance didn't win."
"LA will always be a 7x Tour Winner in my mind. No matter what they decide."
...which is probably a better outcome for him and LiveStrong.

He's had sponsorships and other sources of income, so losing the TdF money is probably not going to hurt much. Even if the official titles are stripped, people will always remember the 7 wins anyway. Regardless of did/didn't, won/lost, whatever, this was probably the least painful of his options at this point.

I'm not so much fascinated in the doping itself as with the fallout that happens afterwards. Landis? Destroyed. Basso? 2 year ban and back like nothing happened. Vinokurov? Serves his ban without admitting guilt, wins gold in the Olympics and is treated like a villain. Vaughters? Comes clean over Twitter and the NYtimes, now held as a hero and hope for the future of cycling. One pattern that seems to be true: if you say for years you didn't do it, then later say you did: THAT seems to piss off the most people. Everyone keeps wanting Lance to "just say it, just say you did it," but everything I've seen says that would be the WORST blow to Lance's image at this point, since he's been the most outspoken about his innocence. He probably knows that.

-- gnat! (who once raced on Claritin-D, there, I said it)

[malkin]

Maybe race organizers could implement a doping control modeled after customs in Mexico. Line up, push a button, sometimes there's a green light and you walk through sometimes there's a red light and your stuff gets searched.

Red light in cycling, the rider could randomly get tossed out of the race, or better yet, spin a big Wheel of Fortune to win anything from a lifetime ban to a slap on the wrist.

;)

[Eden]

I don't agree that him dropping the fight against them, admits guilt. I also don't agree that they should be allowed to ban him for life when he has never been convicted.

I'll admit when I first heard that he was giving in that it sounded tantamount to an admission of guilt, but then I read his statement and I think it's just the opposite... He may be taking the best route here - rather than trying to fight it out and having to attempt to "explain" things he's just saying enough is, enough and that they've created impossible demands. I have told my story and if you can't accept it, there's no way I can give you more....

It's smart if you ask me - look at the other guys who have tried to fight - ie. Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis. Both of them ended up so desperately trying to explain away things that their stories became so twisted and outlandish that it became believe anything they said and they tripped themselves up, by telling too many fish tales.....

[Eden]

Here are the second place finishers:

1999 Alex Zulle, 2000 Jan Ullrich, 2001 Jan Ullrich, 2002 Joseba Belocki, 2003 Jan Ullrich, 2004 Andreas Kloden, 2005 Ivan Basso.

Ullrich and Basso were both suspended for doping, but I don't know about the other guys. It will be interesting to see how this affects the outcome.

But I'll never think that Lance didn't win.

Zulle was actually arrested and thrown in jail at one point.... (there was some scandal over his treatment - apparently he's *seriously* nearsighted, like almost blind uncorrected and his glasses were taken away) He was involved in the Festina affair and has admitted to doping. Klodi was Ullrich's right hand man for years - guilt by association?

[Dizzie]

The media's getting all het up here, it's almost all that's been on the news today. I don't know if they are the same over there but they seem to love to take down anyone who achieves. Guilty by media just to sell papers. Personally I don't care if he was taking something, as has already been said it probably made it so he competed on a level playing field. He, like all those that ride the tour are amazing, I couldn't do it, there wouldn't be a substance strong enough to get me up those hills day after day. Perhaps I could build an electric motor into Lisa //*-*\\ Wasn't that one suggestion of how they could climb so well?
I do wonder though why women don't compete in the tours. Or have their own? Could it be we are more sensible? I apologise heartily if there are women tours and tourers, I would have total admiration.

[limewave]

Since they've started stripping TdF winners of their titles, the TdF has really lost its luster for me. It taints every exciting moment and memory I have from following the event. I no longer have any desire to watch TdF because I know a few weeks/months (and now years and years) down the road the USADA will call foul and illegitimatize the entire event. Don't they do enough testing before and during the race? Shouldn't that be enough?

I used to be a fan of TdF. I won't watch it anymore, haven't for the last two years. USADA and the many, many "scandals" have ruined pro cycling for me.

I'll stick to riding my bike, alone, in the wilderness, on some single track. Nothing but me and my bike.

Yet, I still am a fan of Lance. Can't explain it. But I am.

[Crankin]

In some ways, I feel like limewave; I haven't stopped watching the Tour, although this year, I saw less of it. But my entry into the cycling world, many happy memories of watching the Tour with DS #2, and Lance's achievements are all sort of connected for me. We discovered the Tour (and Phil and Paul) during one of our last family vacations on Cape Cod. The house we rented had OLN and when DS caught a fleeting glance of the peloton as he was channel flipping, that was it.

[Eden]

I do wonder though why women don't compete in the tours. Or have their own? Could it be we are more sensible? I apologise heartily if there are women tours and tourers, I would have total admiration.

There is women's racing and women's tours (Giro Donna etc.) and women who dope.... it's just that none of it ever makes the media

[Fredwina]

Here are the second place finishers:

1999 Alex Zulle, 2000 Jan Ullrich, 2001 Jan Ullrich, 2002 Joseba Belocki, 2003 Jan Ullrich, 2004 Andreas Kloden, 2005 Ivan Basso.

Ullrich and Basso were both suspended for doping, but I don't know about the other guys. It will be interesting to see how this affects the outcome.

But I'll never think that Lance didn't win.
I looked on wikipedia, in 2002, I had to all to #30 before I saw a name that ring a bell with me re: a doping scandal. But then, #30 didn't ring a bell to me either. This is like placing a lock on the henhouse door after the fox has eaten your prize hen.:(:(:confused:

[nuliajuk]

How the heck can they strip him of his Tour titles? They don't run the Tour, or even pro cycling. That's up to the UCI, which is based in Europe.

[Penny4]

Is the USADA over all US sports? How long have they been aroudn?

Can anyone give a 101 description of the various orgs involved?
USADA? UCI? Are there others?

Sorry, I only really started watching TDF and other cycling events this year and am just not familiar with all the orgs and very confused!

[jessmarimba]

How the heck can they strip him of his Tour titles? They don't run the Tour, or even pro cycling. That's up to the UCI, which is based in Europe.

I think because UCI agreed to follow the USADA doping standards, they *have* to strip them if they want to be considered in compliance. So I guess the decision really lies with UCI in the long run, but they've been sort of backed into a corner.

[jessmarimba]

I'm sure there are a million articles and op-ed pieces on this whole fiasco, but I thought this was a well-written commentary:

http://www.pelotonmagazine.com/Wilcockson/content/21/1799/Wilcockson-The-Armstrong-Case

[ny biker]

Does someone want to give the short version of what the heck is wrong with his former teammates that they would all be willing to testify against him?

So they all cheated, and now turn on him. Let's ignore the lack of character doping implies. This lack of loyalty is disturbing. What a bunch of characterless jerks.

So far it's all rumor, but I think they were offered a deal -- we know you doped too, tell us what he did and we'll let you off easy.

If they have any info from the federal investigation, then I think the various teammates could have been jailed for perjury if they didn't tell the truth. However I don't know if USADA has any of that information, since I think I read everything from those types of investigations are sealed once they are closed.

[smilingcat]

I'm starting to think USADA is out to get UCI and TdF. :mad: It's not American ya know... The whole thing stinks of witch hunt.

Why not the NFL, NHL, NBA, All american baseball AL and NL...

Yes women's cycling, we do have cheaters. gnat says claritin-D, and I used to know someone who used banned stuff. Just go to your local "muscle" gym and get to know the pumped up guys.

No matter how much drug I take, I'll never outperform any reasonably fit cat-4 racers. Just too old, out of shape and just too spooked to take chances for a crash.

slightly on a different note and on a lighter side of things http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQhHyHkCeBo

[Anyabeth]

I am not a particular Lance fan but their case seems to be largely that they feel he must have cheated (and I think he probably did) but didn't manage to catch him so that is PROOF that there was a conspiracy. It is ugly and I don't think helps sport at all. I think it interesting that the USADA goes after cycling and baseball but leaves football alone (despite some high profile positive tests) and the NBA doesn't even test.

[zoom-zoom]

I'm starting to think USADA is out to get UCI and TdF. :mad: It's not American ya know... The whole thing stinks of witch hunt.

Why not the NFL, NHL, NBA, All american baseball AL and NL...

You know, I have never been able to get at all interested in ANY pro sports...not TdF, none of it. Because there is just an ugly culture of money and drugs and illegal and/or immoral behavior being brushed under the rug. I can't invest my time in that.

But, yeah, we know there are EPO users in other high-profile American sports--why is the scrutiny not equal?

[pll]

As many in this forum may have realized, I am not a Lance Armstrong fan. However, the USADA should (1) respect jurisdiction (they cannot strip titles not awarded by them); (2) prove their case before issuing or "leaking" any statement or information to the media. The way these cases are (man)handled is astounding. It hurts the sport and it certainly does not help the cause of getting rid of dopers.

Even then, I have fun watching the grand tours and classic races.

[Dogmama]

How the heck can they strip him of his Tour titles? They don't run the Tour, or even pro cycling. That's up to the UCI, which is based in Europe.

Good point!!!

I really do think he made the right decision given his work with Livestrong. I am annoyed that he is making himself out to be a victim. When you put yourself out there, you're going to get criticized. He's made millions with endorsements. The American people are amazingly forgiving when it comes to certain populations (look at Michael Vick, the dog fighter, NFL pro).

[Dogmama]

the NBA doesn't even test.

Yes, they do test. In fact,their new contract reads that they can be tested 2X during the off season for performance enhancing drugs. They cannot be tested in the arena before a game, however. Probably don't want to hold up the television audience. Can your hear Marv Alberts, "Hold on fans, Steve Nash is peeing in a cup..."

Signed - rabid NBA fan

[MichelleOH]

I'm not aware of how these drugs work exactly, but how does testing in the off season tell them anything about the actual season?

[ny biker]

I'm not aware of how these drugs work exactly, but how does testing in the off season tell them anything about the actual season?

Well there's really no off season. They take a little time off after their last race of the year, then they start training for the next year.

And they don't just test for performance-enhancing drugs. Ulrich was suspended for testing positive after being at a dance club while he was recovering from an injury. And IIRC Boonen has tested positive for cocaine.

[lovelygamer]

I don't feel the USADA has the legal standings to do what they have done with Lance, considering the TDF takes place outside of the USA. I also think that his teammates are a**holes for taking a deal, which they obviously did. I'll also never agree that they USADA should have been able to take his wins without one formal conviction. The whole thing is a total shame and disaster.

[pll]

The following, from a note in Cycling News (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-armstrong-warned-before-all-doping-controls), is interesting:


French attorney Thibault de Montbrial, who defended the paper in a suit filed by Armstrong against LA Confidential authors David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, thinks the cumulative pressure of authors such as these and the SCA Promotions lawsuit that followed contributed to the downfall of Armstrong.

He also believes riders are still showing suspicious signs.

"Work together with Antoine Vayer [LeMond columnist], the performance specialist, helped show the implausibility of the power generated in watts on the climbs. Moreover, it is interesting to note that the UCI has banned the publication of such real-time statistics in 2012. And we can understand why when you see that the power production by [Bradley] Wiggins and [Chris] Froome (first and second of the Tour) is comparable to the turbulent times of the late 1990s and early 2000s."

I was wondering why SRM discontinued its display of power figures this year. During last year's tour, if you were watching live, you could go to an SRM web site and see the cadence, watts, heart rate and speed of several racers in the stage, as well as their location on a map. This year, SRM announced it on its web site, but when the TdF started, there were no numbers. Sadly, the UCI is another broken institution.

[pll]

I also think that his teammates are a**holes for taking a deal, which they obviously did.

This I do not understand. Are you advocating for mafia style "omerta"? When Simeoni broke it in 2004/05, he was bullied by Armstrong. Read the collection of articles here (http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=8691). For me, part of why I cannot stand Armstrong is the bullying of others, which is fit for teens in a high school. I hope any evidence USADA has, testimony and all, is brought to bear in an appropriate venue, be it a court or an arbitration body.

[Anyabeth]

Yes, they do test. In fact,their new contract reads that they can be tested 2X during the off season for performance enhancing drugs. They cannot be tested in the arena before a game, however. Probably don't want to hold up the television audience. Can your hear Marv Alberts, "Hold on fans, Steve Nash is peeing in a cup..."

Signed - rabid NBA fan

That is interesting, I am sorry, I remember a larger discussion of PEDs and people talked about the NBA not testing and I took it as true.

[MichelleOH]

Well there's really no off season. They take a little time off after their last race of the year, then they start training for the next year.

And they don't just test for performance-enhancing drugs. Ulrich was suspended for testing positive after being at a dance club while he was recovering from an injury. And IIRC Boonen has tested positive for cocaine.

Thanks, ny biker....I was actually responding to the NBA testing, but I appreciate your reply. ;)

[pll]

Yes, they do test. In fact,their new contract reads that they can be tested 2X during the off season for performance enhancing drugs. They cannot be tested in the arena before a game, however. Probably don't want to hold up the television audience. Can your hear Marv Alberts, "Hold on fans, Steve Nash is peeing in a cup..."

Signed - rabid NBA fan

Any idea why they do not test after each game, a couple of players from each team? In many competitions, including cycling, that's when athletes are tested, not before the game/competition. In cycling, the stage winner and the GC leader are tested in every stage, plus a handful more of riders. You could equally pick the player that scored the most points for each team and a couple more, randomly.

Having done my graduate degree at a university where football was big, it was noticeable how players became notoriously more muscular during the summer. I doubt there is any testing there.

[Dogmama]

In the NBA they can test a player 4X/year. They are looking for PEDs like HGH which would not be used prior to a game but rather throughout the season. HGH would be detectable well after it was used.

I know that they tested after the games in the Olympics. Kobe Bryant was complaining that he had to wait around 2 hours after a game and he really needed to "go" :eek:

[ny biker]

Here's an interesting perspective...

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/post/lance-armstrong-the-hero-deficit-and-the-unhappening/2012/08/24/b329d75e-ee0c-11e1-afd8-097e90f99d05_blog.html

[OakLeaf]

Someone feels the same way I do.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/1247380--lance-armstrong-roger-clemens-are-a-pair-of-jerks-who-won-t-admit-they-re-wrong-and-refuse-to-go-away-kelly

[Dogmama]

Someone feels the same way I do.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/1247380--lance-armstrong-roger-clemens-are-a-pair-of-jerks-who-won-t-admit-they-re-wrong-and-refuse-to-go-away-kelly

I picked out this quote:

"Nobody needs to cry for me. I’m going to be great,” Armstrong said.

Lance the victim. You've got to be kidding me.:rolleyes:

[malkin]

Someone feels the same way I do.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/1247380--lance-armstrong-roger-clemens-are-a-pair-of-jerks-who-won-t-admit-they-re-wrong-and-refuse-to-go-away-kelly


Well put.

[beccaB]

I'm a Lance fan. I really have no idea why. I think all this is getting to the point of ridiculousness. Besides, if he did it they all did it.

[roo4]

I'm a Lance fan. I really have no idea why. I think all this is getting to the point of ridiculousness. Besides, if he did it they all did it.

So what is your point? If one person cheats on an exam, is it ok as long as others do also? If he cheated and everyone else cheated, then they are all cheaters.

[beccaB]

So what is your point? If one person cheats on an exam, is it ok as long as others do also? If he cheated and everyone else cheated, then they are all cheaters.

No, not saying that at all.

[sirenizzed]

All top level athletes are egotistical fatheads. You don't become a professional athlete by being humble. You are chosen at a young age and told how wonderful you are. You are mentored, catered to and coached to believe you are the best and if your best isn't cutting it you can and will be better, because you are
Something special. Sure they stand in front of us and say all the right things, thank the fans, kiss the babies, sign the autographs but they still think their sh*t is ice cream. Does that make them bad people? No. Some people will love em and some will hate them

As far as lance Armstrong goes, he is one of them. He has done some hinky stuff is his personal life that make you raise an eyebrow. He still one of the best damn cyclists I have ever seen race. I can't say he doped because the only evidence any of us are privy to is 500 clean tests. The USADA hasnt provided the public with jack except for heresay and thinly veiled innuendo. Case is closed on this one and the questions will always remain. So I say we make like Armstrong and move on.

[pll]

All top level athletes are egotistical fatheads. You don't become a professional athlete by being humble. You are chosen at a young age and told how wonderful you are. You are mentored, catered to and coached to believe you are the best and if your best isn't cutting it you can and will be better, because you are
Something special. Sure they stand in front of us and say all the right things, thank the fans, kiss the babies, sign the autographs but they still think their sh*t is ice cream. Does that make them bad people? No. Some people will love em and some will hate them

As far as lance Armstrong goes, he is one of them. He has done some hinky stuff is his personal life that make you raise an eyebrow. He still one of the best damn cyclists I have ever seen race. I can't say he doped because the only evidence any of us are privy to is 500 clean tests. The USADA hasnt provided the public with jack except for heresay and thinly veiled innuendo. Case is closed on this one and the questions will always remain. So I say we make like Armstrong and move on.

I agree that questions will linger forever, but the case is far from closed.

[Hi Ho Silver]

A slightly different take on Lance-

I live in Austin and, of course, there is quite a bit of news about him at this point. Despite the possibility that he did dope throughout his career, it is important to remember what else he has accomplished:

http://www.statesman.com/opinion/insight/me-and-lance-armstrong-a-caring-touch-in-2442319.html?cxtype=rss_ece_frontpage

http://www.statesman.com/sports/column-we-still-need-lance-even-if-he-2442170.html?cxtype=rss_ece_frontpage

[uforgot]

http://bicycling.com/blogs/fitchick/2012/08/28/lessons-from-lance/

[redrhodie]

http://bicycling.com/blogs/fitchick/2012/08/28/lessons-from-lance/

Thanks for that.

[Crankin]

I liked that, too.

[pll]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Armstrong might be an idol for the US public, but he is definitely far from universal. Cadence -- see Merckx training (there is a clip of his cadence on the rollers on "Star and Watercarriers"). He was asked once whether it was better to mash a big gear or spin a small gear and he famously replied that it was better to spin a big gear. The lower cadences we see in older cyclists when they climb may be a relic of the older equipment. Riders like Merckx competed on bikes that only had 6 cogs in the cassette, the biggest being 21 (reserved for mountain stages). If you read the biographies of a couple of famous cyclists over time, you will see they were all meticulous about their diets and training regimes. Of course, sometimes the "scientific" advice they received was totally wrong. Recently, I read the biography of Gino Bartali (winner of the TdFs in 1938 and 1948) and a doctor recommended that he smoke cigarettes and drink coffee to deal with a low heart rate!

[OakLeaf]

Riders like Merckx competed on bikes that only had 6 cogs in the cassette, the biggest being 21 (reserved for mountain stages).

Aw heck, riders like ME competed with six-speed freewheels and 42-tooth small rings and only put the 13-21 on for the super hilly roadraces. :rolleyes: That's what there was back then. And the advice I got from my training partners in Greg LeMond's era was that a cadence of 92-96 was the most efficient.

Seriously, I've wondered what gearing the pros run for the mountain stages, but I'd be surprised if it's anything smaller than 39x21. Eleven-speed cassettes just give you closer gear ratios (just like transmissions in any other vehicle). No doubt they have 11-21 corncobs nowadays.

[tealtreak]

http://bicycling.com/blogs/fitchick/2012/08/28/lessons-from-lance/

Selene Yeager is my all time fav- she rocks the trails like no one and is always laughing and smiling (:

[pll]

Seriously, I've wondered what gearing the pros run for the mountain stages, but I'd be surprised if it's anything smaller than 39x21.

I've heard that 11x26 or 12x27 are not unusual. In the Vuelta, last year, in the Alto de L'Angliru stage (full broadcast here (http://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/vuelta-ciclista-a-espana/vuelta-espana-etapa-15-aviles-alto-langliru-04-09-11-tercera-parte/1189124/)), several Spanish riders (familiar with the climb) had a 34 ring and a 32 cog -- see the VeloNews article (http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/09/vuelta-a-espana/vuelta-tech-gear-ratios-critical-up-the-angliru_191093).

ETA: I read EM's favorite small ring was a 44. Anyway, EM seems to have been an unbelievable bike rider. His list of palmares is amazing.

[Dogmama]

How many will be watching Lance with Oprah? Wonder if Oprah will be passing him a tissue? I think not. There is talk that he could be in serious trouble with this confession. When he was riding with Postal, he apparently purchased doping materials with tax money. Not good. One pundit mused that his ego is so huge he thinks he's above punishment.

[jobob]

"When Lance 'cries' on Oprah later this week and she passes him a tissue, spare a thought for all of those genuine people who walked away with no reward – just shattered dreams. Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances."

-- Nicole Cooke, from the statement announcing her retirement on 1/14/2013

[salsabike]

Perfectly said.


"When Lance 'cries' on Oprah later this week and she passes him a tissue, spare a thought for all of those genuine people who walked away with no reward – just shattered dreams. Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances."

-- Nicole Cooke, from the statement announcing her retirement on 1/14/2013

[Catrin]

Selene Yeager is my all time fav- she rocks the trails like no one and is always laughing and smiling (:

+100 on this :) We've a local pro mtb racer who is like this, she is SO tiny that she makes me feel tall and is always laughing and smiling. She rocks, and I would love it if she were to start writing.

Very sad about Lance - though it wasn't a surprise. I don't know how all of this will end but it is all very sad.

[katluvr]

Ok, I was a big Lance fan and believer. Then I felt that yeah he probably doped but so did many during that time period. I continued to struggle with how and what I felt. Now I am very disappointed. And not sure what I feel. It's not the doping that is the issue, obviously it's his scheming and lying. I still feel all the recent events makes it a sad day/year for cycling. Guess it's like a kid and loss of a hero. I started cycling and watching the tour when he was winning.
K

[Dogmama]

obviously it's his scheming and lying.
K

My thoughts exactly. It's bad enough that he doped but many professional sports have this issue. But the threats and manipulations coupled with his arrogance make it far worse, IMO. For example, when the 1000 page indictment was released, he tweeted a picture of himself lounging in this
Austin family room surrounded by his 7 yellow jerseys with a comment akin to, "What, me worry?"

Poor Gorgeous George. He's been stunningly silent.

[emily_in_nc]

When is the Oprah interview airing? I don't watch enough ABC down here to get the ads for it, though I did hear about it on CNBC.

Thanks!

[Sylvia]

When is the Oprah interview airing? I don't watch enough ABC down here to get the ads for it, though I did hear about it on CNBC.

Thanks!

It's in two parts the first part is tonight and the second part tomorrow evening 9 p.m. EST and will be streamed live on oprah.com

[Jo-n-NY]

When is the Oprah interview airing? I don't watch enough ABC down here to get the ads for it, though I did hear about it on CNBC.

Thanks!

Tonight on the Oprah channel 9:30est I believe.

[Jo-n-NY]

It's in two parts the first part is tonight and the second part tomorrow evening 9 p.m. EST and will be streamed live on oprah.com

sorry, it is a 2 parter so the 2nd part is tomorrow (Friday) night.

[Jo-n-NY]

Syliva - we posted at the same time :)

[ny biker]

RT @BikeSnobNYC: Will there be a rebroadcast of the interview later tonight with Bob Roll and Craig Hummer instead of Oprah?

[jobob]

I hope Lance deigns to elucidate how he managed to pass those mythical 500 clean tests that were cited over and over and over again as "proof" of his innocence. :rolleyes:

[jobob]

rt @bikesnobnyc: Will there be a rebroadcast of the interview later tonight with bob roll and craig hummer instead of oprah?

ftw! :D

[jobob]

Well, in response to that infamous Nike ad circa 2005: "What are YOU on?", Lance should have said: "Plenty".

[Irulan]

I can't read the whole thread. Has anyone posted the Lance/Oprah drinking game yet?
Frankly, I'm not going to watch. I'm disgusted by him playing the "celebrity interview" card.

Lance/Oprah drinking game courtesy http://drunkcyclist.com/2013/01/16/the-oprah-winfrey-lance-armstrong-interview-drinking-game/


Yes. This is going to hurt.

We all know what’s coming. There is no secret about it. There will be revelations. There will be an admission of wrongdoing. He’s going to finally admit that he doped in his cycling career.

After more than a decade of denials, cyclist Lance Armstrong reversed course Monday and told Oprah Winfrey that he had used performance-enhancing drugs in winning the Tour de France. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-admits-doping-in-oprah-winfrey-interview….

So, basically this game is heavily slanted toward the abuse of your liver. Suck it up, fatboy. Pimp’n ain’t easy. See Big Daddy Kane – Pimpin’ Ain’t Easy (feat. Nice & Smooth) available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGRoEfRJSGs.

As none of us have actually seen the interview yet, there are still some things we can play with.

Preliminary matters:
- Immediately shotgun a beer if he is wearing yellow during the interview.
- Take a shot from a .357 if he claps on a stingy brim and starts singing, “My Way.” (We’re kidding.)

Take one drink If Lance:
- says the word “cancer”
- says the word “hope”
- says the word “regret”
- says the word “lie”
- says the word “God”
- uses the phrase “everyone was doing it”
- blinks two or more times before responding to Oprah

Endurance drinking:
- Begin drinking at the first sign of tears forming in Lance Armstrong’s cold, dead eyes, and continue to drink until he stops crying. (This may require close proximity to backup drinks because, baby, here come the water works. See How to Cry On the Spot.)

Finish your drink if Lance says he regrets the way he treated:
- Greg Lemond
- Betsy Andreu
- Emma O’Reilly (Updated, because really. Hat tip IcemanYVR.)
- Frankie Andreu
- Tyler Hamiltion
- Floyed Landis
- Filippo Simeoni
- Mike Anderson
- David Walsh
- Paul Kimmage
(There are so many, I had to stop the list. Please forgive any exclusions.)

Random rules:
- Snort a line of salt if he admits to perjury.
- Throw entire shot, beer, Bloody Mary, glass of Malbec, whatever floats your boat and trips your trigger over your shoulder if he blames Johann Bruyneel.

Note: If you are only twenty minutes into this shitshow interview and you’ve already drank your weight in lager, staggering like a drunken sailor and begging for mercy, you are undoubtedly not alone. If you find yourself up against the ropes, feeling that you just can’t go on, remember this guy. You want inspiration? Look no further.

crazy-eyed-dowhill-kids-bike

You think this guy is scared of a couple of drinks over a multimillionaire squeezing out crocodile tears and faking regret because he seriously NEEDS to compete again? No. This guy couldn’t give a rat’s ***.

So, HTFU, you big baby. You have all of Friday to sober up for the big Saturday Morning World Championship training ride that you are so going to own. Just like you do every week, Champ.

[Owlie]

I need to remember to stay off the Internet while consuming liquids or anything in liquid...

[Sylvia]

There's a really good interview with David Walsh on his campaign to expose Lance. It's located here (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/public/article1192199.ece). The video starts about a minute into the video, so ignore the portion that says the "Event will commence at 7:45PM."

[shootingstar]

How does he explain all this to his....3 sons?

That's his justification to play the celebrity car interview: He is desperate to earn money to support them, maintain his lifestyle (whatever it is).
I haven't bothered to listen to the interivew because I was never a fan of LA.

[Dogmama]

Owlie - no kidding. Irulan, love the Lance drinking game. Jobob, "Plenty" would be an appropriate answer!!

How did he manage to sit through that interview and not appear remorseful? It was almost like he was bragging. What do they call people who have no conscious? Oh yeah, psychopaths. I wonder if he'll talk about the fact that he practically blackmailed Trek when LeMonde accused him of doping?

Poor Tyler Hamilton, Gorgeous George and the others who were sucked down the toilet of Armstrong. Understanding that they're big boys and made their own decisions, there still was that prestige of riding with Lance that undoubtedly lured them in.

Interesting about the off season testing. In the interview, he said it was minimal. Yet, I recall him proclaiming loudly that the head hunters constantly knocked on his door in the middle of the night & demand that he pee in a cup.

[malkin]

...How did he manage to sit through that interview and not appear remorseful? It was almost like he was bragging. What do they call people who have no conscious? Oh yeah, psychopaths...

All kidding aside ( just for a sec, 'cuz you know I love a good drinking game as much as anyone!) I did get a clearly creepy mentally ill vibe from him.

[Irulan]

I opted for a Season 2 Downton Abbey marathon.

[smilingcat]

We all have our flaws.

Tragedy for his children... Tragedy for the innocent around him and who believed in him.

[Crankin]

I agree. I keep thinking of my son, who started cycling and racing, in 1999, right at the beginning of the Lance hoopla. I have such a vivid memory of renting a cottage on the Cape, that had OLN, and he and my DH sitting mesmerized, watching the TdF. Lance was really a hero to my son.
But, I am realistic, and I just think this whole thing sucks for racing in general. I've been close to the racing scene through first my son, and then my exchange student. Both are "nice boys," who always felt a little bit stymied by the whole thing. Thankfully, my exchange student got over the pro team he was on folding, and is now a successful coach and amateur racer and my son rides for fun. But, I just wonder how this whole attitude of "we'll do anything to win," affected them.

[Dogmama]

But, I just wonder how this whole attitude of "we'll do anything to win," affected them.

Exactly what weighs on my mind. I don't think he's truly sorry that he doped. I think he's sorry that he got caught. And apparently he was dirty for his comeback too - so he's not done lying.

One theory about "why now" is that he thinks he has escaped the statute of limitations. However, if he doped in foreign countries, wouldn't their laws pertain? Wouldn't the French love this? Oo-la-la, Lance!

[Sky King]

Crankin, thanks for the insight. I think the media is pretty hypocritical. I blame all of us for doping issues. The media, the sponsors and the public demand, faster, stronger, record breaking results only to gasped in horror and shock when the competitor is caught. For me it is like the proverb - may he who lives in a glass house cast the first stone. Don't get me wrong, I am not letting Lance off the hook and the man certainly has issues with facing the truth but can't help but be somewhat tongue in cheek over the entire affair. I do hope that Livestrong survives the fallout.

[snapdragen]

I'll quote a dear friend of mine "He's done great cancer work, and is the most beautiful thing I ever saw ride a bike. Doped or no, ******* or no, those two things trump all else for me."

[BikeDutchess]

I don't think he's truly sorry that he doped. I think he's sorry that he got caught.!

That's exactly my impression from what I saw on Thursday's portion of the interview (didn't see Friday's).

[OakLeaf]

I'll quote a dear friend of mine "He's done great cancer work, and is the most beautiful thing I ever saw ride a bike. Doped or no, ******* or no, those two things trump all else for me."

His sponsorship by cancer-causing alcoholic beverages, or by fraudulent cancer-profiteering (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrongs-fraud-paralleled-epo-makers-feud) pharmaceutical companies? Or his profit from using the Livestrong.org brand to run the for-profit .com (http://journals.lww.com/oncology-times/Fulltext/2009/08100/Livestrong_com_vs_Livestrong_org__Does_Same_Name.7.aspx) site? Or the way he exploited his history of cancer to deflect any criticism of his personal, sporting or financial dealings?

Livestrong.ORG does good work, I don't doubt, and the foundation might or might not have got off the ground without such a well-known personality behind it. But honestly, it's Lance's cozy dealings with the cancer industry that disgusts me about him more than anything. Otherwise he'd be just another disgraced sports star. Instead of someone who made millions off others' suffering. That he suffered himself doesn't obviate that in the least, for me; really, it makes it worse.

[pll]

+1 Oakleaf. I have never been a fan of Lance Armstrong. I never bought the miracle "come back" in 1999, from an average cyclist to TdF winner and was consistently sickened by the hype. And he always acted like a mean teenage girl. He bullied people around him. How can doping, lying, bulling, etc be trumped by "he looked good on a bike"? Bernie Maddoff made some charities wealthy with his "investing" and he may have been a more likable character than Lance. Does that redeem him, too?

Anyway, I just wonder what Phil Ligget and Paul Sherwen are going to say when the April classics broadcasts start. They supported Lance staunchly, even after the USADA report came out. I would hope Armstrong goes away, but, unfortunately, that won't happen this year.

[Dogmama]

+1 Oakleaf. I have never been a fan of Lance Armstrong. I never bought the miracle "come back" in 1999, from an average cyclist to TdF winner .

How about cancer survivor to TdF winner?

I took offense at his references to his actions as, "that guy" - as if it was somebody else who engineering all of those atrocities. He ruined many lives and deserves a lifetime ban. His actions are head & shoulders above the other cyclists who doped. He deserves his "death sentence" permanent ban from sanctioned competition. Sorry Lance, but you're relegated to the bunny hill from now on!

[snapdragen]

Livestrong has helped a number of my friends diagnosed with different cancers. Were it not for Livestrong, one would probably be dead now. If cozying up to the "cancer industry" is what needs to be done in order to get people the help they need, then hell yes, I'm all for it.

Edited to remove snark. Guess the upcoming anniversary is affecting me more than I thought.




His sponsorship by cancer-causing alcoholic beverages, or by fraudulent cancer-profiteering (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/armstrongs-fraud-paralleled-epo-makers-feud) pharmaceutical companies? Or his profit from using the Livestrong.org brand to run the for-profit .com (http://journals.lww.com/oncology-times/Fulltext/2009/08100/Livestrong_com_vs_Livestrong_org__Does_Same_Name.7.aspx) site? Or the way he exploited his history of cancer to deflect any criticism of his personal, sporting or financial dealings?

Livestrong.ORG does good work, I don't doubt, and the foundation might or might not have got off the ground without such a well-known personality behind it. But honestly, it's Lance's cozy dealings with the cancer industry that disgusts me about him more than anything. Otherwise he'd be just another disgraced sports star. Instead of someone who made millions off others' suffering. That he suffered himself doesn't obviate that in the least, for me; really, it makes it worse.

[OakLeaf]

You noticed I didn't say anything negative about Livestrong.ORG. I think it's one of the better organizations out there, in fact. Not so much the data mining/ad revenue generating operation with the too-similar name. If "bitter" means being disgusted by people who can look at pain and see only dollar signs, well, pass the rappini.

[pll]

"When Lance 'cries' on Oprah later this week and she passes him a tissue, spare a thought for all of those genuine people who walked away with no reward – just shattered dreams. Each one of them is worth a thousand Lances."

-- Nicole Cooke, from the statement announcing her retirement on 1/14/2013

I was just reading the full statement Nicole Cooke made when she announced her retirement. I think it is a must read:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/14/nicole-cooke-retirement-statement

[grey]

Honestly, I am on the fence about the whole thing.
The story of a cancer survivor becoming TdF winner - even one time - would be great.
I have several cancer-survivor friends who ride. They inspire me every day.

I'm not upset - not really - that he doped. I think the majority of serious level cyclists do. I have a friend with an amazing son, I can see this kid as part of a TdF team someday, no joke. I hope doping isn't as big a problem as I think it is.

Then too... if doping is as prevalent as I think it is, then Lance is still the winner. Or the best doper of the dopes.

I agree too, I don't like his manner. He does come off as snobby.

So for myself - on the fence. I see positives and negatives. Livestrong.org, I understand, is a great organization. I am hopeful that the positives in what he has done with his cycling career and influence outweigh the negatives.

[goldfinch]

I agree with Nicole Cook, races were stolen from those who did not dope. To quote her:

All these "born again" champions of a clean sport. They could be more accurately described as criminals who stole other's livelihoods who are only ever genuinely sorry about one thing — they are very sorry they were caught.

[OakLeaf]

Grey, I'm confused. Do you want your friend's son to dope? Or would you rather he not have a pro cycling career? If the latter, would you prefer that he realize it now and give it up at the high school level ... or have his heart broken when he tries to get on a top pro team? That's the choice that Lance and his ilk left to other cyclists, as Nicole Cook and Scott Mercier so heartbreakingly explained.

[Crankin]

That's pretty much what happened to my exchange student. When he gave up on the pro level, specifically because of doping (his team lost their sponsors), he found success at the college level. But, it came with a price of a few tough years, financially and psychologically.
I still wonder if some of those juniors were doping when my son was racing.