Paleo diet? [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

GLC1968

08-02-2012, 04:25 PM

I've been paleo for almost a year now over periods of lots of activity (and races) and periods of zero activity (due to injury). In addition, I have been on a very clean paleo elimination diet for the past 30+ days and I feel fan-freaking-tastic.

I'd be happy to answer any questions, but the real answers can only come if you try it yourself because everyone is different.

As a start, I would highly recommend two books. First and foremost: It Starts With Food by Dallas and Melissa Hartwig. They are the founders of the website Whole9 and the concept of Whole30 (30 days of clean/strict paleo to reset your hormonal response to food). Book number two is called The Paleo Solution and it's by Robb Wolf. Robb is sometimes a bit 'in your face' and his style can be kind of offensive, but I find him amusing. His book gets into more of the science than ISWF does.

And if you do decide to try it, the best cookbook out there is called Well Fed by Melissa Joulwan. It's actually a pretty awesome cookbook whether you are paleo or not, but every single recipe we've tried from her book as been amazing. She also gives you tons and tons of ways to change things up and mix and match to keep everything interesting.

Becky

08-02-2012, 04:58 PM

DH and I are starting to experiment with the idea of paleo. It's been less than a week. So far, we've made a concerted effort to reduce grains, eat more produce and lean meat, and eliminate dairy. Neither of us are sure that we can go totally grain- and legume-free, but we're both enjoying veggie-laden meals and less sugar. We've both noticed that our allergies are less severe since we dropped dairy.

Thanks to Catrin for starting this thread, and to GLC for the cookbook suggestion. I've been thinking about buying Well Fed, whether we commit to paleo or not, so I'm glad to hear that it's worth it. I'm looking forward to reading in this thread about others' experiences.

ny biker

08-02-2012, 05:29 PM

I work with a guy who tried it. He said he was hungry all the time.

His diet was pretty healthy to begin with, in terms of things like avoiding fats and sugars, choosing whole grains, stuff like that.

GLC1968

08-02-2012, 09:27 PM

Catrin

08-03-2012, 01:10 AM

NYBiker- avoiding fat while on the Paleo diet will definitely leave one starving. I did the same thing the first time I tried it. Fat is key to satiety and to general satisfaction! It took me weeks to learn to tolerate it after years of low fat living, and months before i could enjoy it, but now I can comfortably embrace healthy fat with every meal. In fact, a meal is not complete to me without it now!

I can share more of our actual experience on the diet tomorrow. My husband is also paleo.

Whatever you would like to share would be helpful :) I must admit that the idea of increasing fat in my diet for an energy source in the place of carbs is...a bit scary. That being said, I know it is about good fats, and our focus on low fat diets since the 80's have caused more problems than we realized at the time but it's been difficult to not have absorbed at least some of the idea that "fat makes you fat". The reality is far more complex than that. As someone who has reversed diabetes 2, I recognize that insulin resistance will always be a concern of mine - and apparently there is research that has shown primal diets to have a very positive effect regarding insulin issues. I need to check out this research myself.

I know a couple of fitness professionals who were once against the Paleo/primal approach but felt it their job to research it carefully as these issues could impact those they work with. What got my attention is they are starting to change their original negative opinion and they are encouraging their clients to do the research and base our decisions on what we find. They aren't pushing us to do this - but to do the research and base our decisions on that.

Our library has the books you mentioned on order, I am now in the que. They have an electronic copy of "The Paleo Answer" by the same author of The Paleo Diet and I've checked that out.

Dogmama

08-03-2012, 03:42 AM

There was a recent study that showed a low glycemic diet helped people lose weight & keep it off. It was superior to the low fat/high carb or high fat/low carb diets.

My only concern would be the calcium and minerals that dairy provides. Granted, we can take supplements but I do believe that whole foods deliver nutrients in ways we don't understand yet. For women, especially as we become more mature (cough - I have a birthday coming up) osteoporosis is a concern. Most dieticians are against cutting out entire food groups.

That being said - everybody is different. Some cannot tolerate a low carb diet due to lifestyle and the neurotransmitters that are manufactured with the help of carbohydrates. Others have no problems. I guess the real answer would be to try it & see how you feel.

Catrin

08-03-2012, 04:10 AM

From what I've read, there seems to be different perspectives in the Paleo community regarding dairy. I doubt that I will cut it out entirely as I've the same calcium concerns but I've just started my research. I do think I need to give this a chance but want to do my research first.

westtexas

08-03-2012, 05:38 AM

I've been Paleo for ~11 months now and I cannot see myself ever returning to a Standard American Diet ever again. I didn't have weight to lose when I started, but I definitely leaned out and built some muscle without really changing my exercise habits. For me, the biggest impact it made on my life was the elimination of constant daily heartburn, horrible terrible acne (which is still clearing up slowly), being tired all the time and being hungry all the time.

The key in my mind is that you have to do it with lots of fat and whatever carbs you eat need to be low glycemic index. I'm not 100% Paleo - I cheat every now and then, but I try to make smarter choices if I eat a grain or have some dessert. I do regularly drink red wine and eat dark chocolate.

The books I recommend most are Well Fed (as previously mentioned), Paleo Comfort Foods and Make It Paleo (the one I use most often). There are two more books coming out this fall - Practical Paleo and Paleo Slow Cooker (something like that).

On a regular basis, I read Mark's Daily Apple, Nom Nom Paleo and Paleo For Women. I have found the discussions in the latter to be especially intriguing because it talks about how as women, our different set of complicated hormones can make the Paleo diet tricky for us, as well as learning to accept your body the way it is. I found this especially important because for a while I was obsessed with getting my body fat percentage below a certain set point I made up in my mind, and now I feel more like I am eating to simply be healthy and feel good.

My mom and I both eat this way now and we love it. We're trying to get my dad on the gravy train, but the man is addicted to Cheez-Its.

Crankin

08-03-2012, 07:06 AM

Sky King

08-03-2012, 07:25 AM

I have been eating low glycemic for a long time. In January, when DH and I wanted to lose 5 lbs. we bought a Paleo cookbook. I like some of the recipes, but I just can't totally give up whole grain carbs. I was able to almost totally not eat them for 3 months, but since cycling season has ramped up, I just can't do it. I've maintained my weight, so it doesn't seem to affect me. Also, when I had that high cholesterol reading, it was right when I had been eating lots of meat, semi-Paleo for 3.5 months.
I am not against Paleo, I just don't want to cut out a whole
food group. I am hungry all of the time, no matter what I eat!

Crankin, You sound just like my DH. He would completely blow away if he didn't have carbs. As mentioned, everyone is different. I can tolerate a more "paleo" diet than the DH and am currently doing just that as I am trying to dump some menopausal weight gain so am just supplementing meals for him with lots of rice, etc. Then he eats whole grain pancakes and sandwiches, etc to keep the fuel he needs. I will say, I am enjoying eating more almonds :) down 4 pounds in 8 days, know that will taper off but am good with it
Once I am where I want to be I will add more carbs but will be paying attention, giving up beer hasn't been as bad as I feared but I will enjoy having it again in six weeks

Tri Girl

08-03-2012, 07:35 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about eliminating the dairy. If you eat healthy and eat your leafy greens, you will be taking in the calcium you need (and you can also supplement).
I was reading something recently (can't quite remember where online but I know it was a respected site like the Mayo clinic or something) that said that using dairy to get all your calcium (or most of it) was actually not the best way to get it into your body and was not the healthiest for your bones. I need to go try to look that up.

I'm not paleo- I'm vegan- but I have eliminated all dairy (which is why I was reading up on calcium and dairy and such).

Melalvai

08-03-2012, 08:18 AM

Dairy has more calcium than other sources, but you absorb it more efficiently from other sources. That said, I am unconvinced by the arguments that dairy is bad. My biggest concerns about dairy are the hormones & chemicals, which is an argument for local & organic dairy, not for cutting out dairy.

A friend asked me to read the Blood Type Diet. The idea is that your blood type can tell you the ideal diet for you, and that might be vegan for one blood type and paleo for another. Seems pretty silly to me and the evidence was unconvincing, but the idea that really resonated with me was that our ideal diet is individual. Paleo might be great for some people but that doesn't mean everyone is going to thrive on paleo. Or vegan. Or whatever someone is trying to push on us.

I suspect my ideal diet leans toward paleo but includes whole grains and dairy.

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 08:32 AM

I've seen some of the same reports that TriGirl mentions about how dairy is actually a relatively inefficient way of getting calcium (and Vit D) to our bones. I'm not going to quote the science (mostly because I'm sure I'll get it wrong!) but there have been studies. I believe that the ISWF book I mentioned includes the information. As an example, my bones are so strong even after 8 months of almost zero dairy that when I fell on my foot while it was folded under me in a totally unnatural position, I ripped ligaments from bone....I didn't break any. I did have one tiny fracture in a metatarsal but it was minor and it healed extremely quickly. My brother did the same thing to his foot (many years ago) and broke 4 of 5 metatarsals. I know it's totally anecdotal, but my bone strength is excellent even on paleo.

The list of what I've gained going paleo is long.

smooooth digestion - zero issues...even when running when I used to have 'problems'
wiped out my acne (yes, zits at 44 suck)
improved memory and clarity of thinking
recovered from workouts faster
a little weight loss (mostly just bloat)
elimination of heartburn (it was getting to be a real problem)
and the biggest one for me: feeling 'normal' about food, no cravings, no thinking about it, no longing for it, no desire to hoard it, etc (I've been food-obsessed most of my life and on paleo, I'm not)

Then, a little over a month ago, I went Whole30 (stricter paleo) and saw the following improvements on top of the above:

unbelievably steady energy levels
reduction in hunger - no need to snack all day long anymore
sleeping like the dead (this is also HUGE for me as I've always been sleep-deprived as a very, very light sleeper)
weight loss - I'm down 10 lbs since June 27th on almost zero exercise

My cholesterol has improved (total the same but HDL is way up) and my triglycerides didn't even register on the meter. And I had excellent numbers before I started, too.

I also just kicked what promised to be a pretty nasty cold bug to the curb in a day and a half!

I have zero cravings (except often for veggies and sometimes red meat), I'm happy, I feel fantastic, and I'm just giddy on a daily basis about this. I will admit that the first two weeks of Whole30 were not easy and I'd already cut out grains and legumes when I started it, but once I got past that phase, I've felt spectacular since then.

After having seen what following the Whole30 has done for me, I would recommend it to anyone. It's worth it just to see! I'm still stunned at how much it helped me and I was already paleo. It's not easy to do in today's world (chock full of hidden bad ingredients), but it is SOOOO worth it. Hell, if my husband could do it, anyone can. Seriously! :p

And I wanted to add that the experts out there on Paleo (not the crazy zealots who think it's all about cavemen!) agree that eating grains and dairy are not going to kill you (unless you are celiac, of course). The point is that they are NOT the most healthy choice. If grains are all you have to survive, then yes, eat them. They are not poison. Same with dairy (and in some cases and some dairy, it is encouraged). The point is that grains are dairy are not the best sources of nutrition and there are compounds in them that many, many humans cannot tolerate. This is individual but until you eliminate them 100% for a long enough period of time, you cannot know if you are sensitive or not.

Example: I love corn. Corn on the cob was one of my favorite foods. When I finished my Whole30, the first item I tried to 'reintroduce' was corn chips. I should have known better because about 10 years ago, I eliminated popcorn from my diet because it made my stomach hurt something awful. I thought it was just popcorn but now I have learned that it is all corn. I no longer eat it and now that I know, without a doubt, what it does to me, I can make that choice rationally and I'm ok with it. It's not worth it to me...no matter how good it tastes. I suspect that once my husband tries icecream for the first time, he'll have a similar reaction (though he'll probably decide that it IS worth it to him) ;) .

Becky

08-03-2012, 08:46 AM

This is all really good info- thanks!

GLC, can you provide some examples of meals and snacks in your house? I'm struggling a little with meal ideas beyond salads and grilled meat and veggies, particularly when time or sanity are in short supply.

DH did make some rocking stuffed peppers last night with ground turkey and spinach. He has a gift for inventing dishes without recipes.

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 09:03 AM

DH did make some rocking stuffed peppers last night with ground turkey and spinach. He has a gift for inventing dishes without recipes.

I would kill for a DH that could do that! ;) Actually, mine is excellent with getting creative with eggs, but I think he's lacking confidence in all other culinary areas.

Actually, we don't snack much anymore. Once we were Whole30 for a couple of weeks, we kind of lost interest in eating between meals.

That said, we do have snack-y things around the house because we invariably have to 'grab and go' on occasion.

Spiced nuts or nuts and coconut flakes combos
Fruit (we try to not eat *just* fruit for a snack, but combine it with something else, like apples and almond butter or a peach and a couple of meatballs).
Meatballs (lately I've been making kale meatballs and they are good cold!)
Baked chicken wings
sausages (easy to throw on the grill)
egg muffins (not my favorite, but good in a pinch)
apple/banana clusters (I can share the recipe)
guacamole and veggies (carrots, cukes, celery, mushrooms, peppers, etc)
meat/veggie roll ups (veggies and either quac or paleo mayo rolled in a piece of turkey meat)
tuna or sardines mixed with guacamole or hunks of avocado
bacon-wrapped, almond stuffed, dates (a little high in sugar, but good if you can control yourself around them!)
kale or zucchini chips (made in the dehydrator - or oven)
sweet potato or beet chips (baked)

We also almost always make extra of any veggie we cook whether it's grilled, sauteed, or roasted and keep those in the fridge too. Oh, and hardboiled eggs are a good option if you like them (I still can't get myself to eat hard boiled egg yolks!).

Owlie

08-03-2012, 09:17 AM

If anyone's got links to peer-reviewed studies for some of this stuff, that would be awesome. It makes sense that dairy-derived calcium and plant-derived calcium would be absorbed differently. I'd have to go a little deeper into the chemistry and what's bound to what, though.

I don't mean to be snarky, and if it works for you, keep on doing what you're doing, but:
I know I do better on a lower-carb, higher-fat/protein diet (which is why I don't eat pasta without some meat in it, among other things), but I have intellectual difficulty with the idea that one should cut out whole food groups without a good reason (allergy or they make your digestive system unhappy). Especially considering that, with the exception of dairy, you're eliminating food groups that people all over the world have been eating for generations with no apparent issues. (I'm thinking beans and grains.)
No, the Standard American Diet isn't the healthiest, but I'm not sure that rejecting whole groups of food is a great idea either.

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 09:47 AM

No, the Standard American Diet isn't the healthiest, but I'm not sure that rejecting whole groups of food is a great idea either.

The more moderate approach to this isn't that grains are bad necessarily, it's just that because of some of the mechanisms in grains (ie, a grain will not grow once it's been chewed and digested, so they have components to protect them from that happening so that they can survive), they aren't the best choice. Even if you look at all the vitamins and 'good things' in whole grains, the reality is that a lot of that good stuff is not bioavailable to your body. If your body can get all the same good stuff from veggies (and more), why bother with grains? It's not unlike choosing to eat home-grown organic spinach over iceberg lettuce from McDonalds. Both are considered food, but the spinach is SOOOO much better for you, why wouldn't you choose it over the lettuce option? Taste? Perhaps. But I can attest that it doesn't take long to stop caring about eating grains when you feel this good without them. ;)

Again, there are lots of places on this planet where the only choice for food is grains and certainly, eating grains is better than not eating at all. The point is that grains (and legumes, and in some cases, dairy) are not the BEST option.

In my case, I felt totally fine (and even healthy) before I went paleo. I only did it out of curiosity, not out of need. What continues to shock me to the core is how much BETTER I feel eating this way.

I don't have my copy of ISWF here at work, or I could find the studies and post links. There may be links to some of them at their website/blog:

http://whole9life.com/

Another good online resource is Mark Sisson's blog. He does a lot of research and isn't one to spout off 'caveman' ideals...you may be able to find the relevant research on his site as well (though his definition of 'primal' does include some dairy):

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/welcome-to-marks-daily-apple/#axzz22VSN3YDS

Tri Girl

08-03-2012, 11:07 AM

I LOVE Mark Sisson's blog!!
I used to be of the idea that eliminating ENTIRE food groups was not only silly, but nutritionally irresponsible. And look at me now- 8 months later and I've totally eliminated meat and dairy. :rolleyes:

My reason was for my health. My cholesterol was off the charts and my doc wanted to put me on statins b/c of my strong family history of early death from heart disease (I'm only 39, and being on statins scares the crap out of me for many reasons). I tried this as a last-ditch effort to clean up the cardiovascular system. My cholesterol has dropped 60 pts purely from dietary changes and I'm out of the risky group now. I still have moderately high blood pressure, but I'm working on that by losing weight.

I went through a phase where I severerly cut back on grains/carbs but that didn't bode well for my athletic adventures.

You're so right when you say every body has a diet that works for them. I have 1 paleo friend who constantly sends me articles/literature disproving a vegan diet and proving paleo is the right way. Whatevs. It works for me, so I'm sticking with it. What works for you, stick with it.
I also have another friend who is paleo, but sends me recipes all the time that I can make vegan that are SOOOO delicious!! She knows I can adapt them, and they have all be incredibly scrumptious!!! :)

If you ladies want to share recipes, here, please do. I would love to see what you're eating and adapt it for me.
I'm very interested in the science behind both paleo and vegan. I think both are scientifically sound (how that's possible- I don't know). ;) I love learning about all healthier eating plans, and I tend to get meal ideas from so many different sources.

Veronica

08-03-2012, 11:42 AM

I think both are scientifically sound (how that's possible- I don't know). ;) I love learning about all healthier eating plans, and I tend to get meal ideas from so many different sources.

I think that it's because even though we're the same species we are different.

It's like my cats - one got super obese and lethargic on dry food when he was less than a year old. The other one can eat anything and she's super healthy. Same species - but something is different.

Veronica

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 12:24 PM

I'm very interested in the science behind both paleo and vegan. I think both are scientifically sound (how that's possible- I don't know). ;) I love learning about all healthier eating plans, and I tend to get meal ideas from so many different sources.

I totally agree. I mean, I've seen so many people who are thriving on a vegan diet that I can't help but accept that it clearly works for some people. (I assume I'll get tossed out of the cave-world for saying such blasphemy!;))

Really, vegan and paleo both promote the eating of WHOLE FOODS over anything processed and a ton of vegetable/plant matter, so that's a huge start down the road to health, no matter how you look at it. The real debate would be grains/beans vs meat, and really, it is very much individual.

I get equally annoyed with the paleo-police who freak out about what others eat or don't eat as I do with those who would throw paleo people under the nutritional bus for choosing not to eat grains. I mean, why is it generally accepted that it is super healthy to eliminate meat from one's diet but it's considered insane to talk about eliminating grains? The arguments are the same....just from different viewpoints, right?

And yes, in case anyone wants to pull up any of my earlier posts on paleo to throw that 'paleo-police' comment back in my face, I've mellowed quite a bit after a year of doing this. :p I know I was super gung-ho in the beginning but I've done a lot of research and experimentation (and growing) since then.

Veronica

08-03-2012, 12:28 PM

GLC I've always thought you were one of the more sane paleo people. :D Seriously, what I get out of your posts is how thrilled you are with how it's working for you.

Veronica

Owlie

08-03-2012, 12:41 PM

The more moderate approach to this isn't that grains are bad necessarily, it's just that because of some of the mechanisms in grains (ie, a grain will not grow once it's been chewed and digested, so they have components to protect them from that happening so that they can survive), they aren't the best choice. Even if you look at all the vitamins and 'good things' in whole grains, the reality is that a lot of that good stuff is not bioavailable to your body. If your body can get all the same good stuff from veggies (and more), why bother with grains? It's not unlike choosing to eat home-grown organic spinach over iceberg lettuce from McDonalds. Both are considered food, but the spinach is SOOOO much better for you, why wouldn't you choose it over the lettuce option? Taste? Perhaps. But I can attest that it doesn't take long to stop caring about eating grains when you feel this good without them. ;)

Again, there are lots of places on this planet where the only choice for food is grains and certainly, eating grains is better than not eating at all. The point is that grains (and legumes, and in some cases, dairy) are not the BEST option.

In my case, I felt totally fine (and even healthy) before I went paleo. I only did it out of curiosity, not out of need. What continues to shock me to the core is how much BETTER I feel eating this way.

I don't have my copy of ISWF here at work, or I could find the studies and post links. There may be links to some of them at their website/blog:

http://whole9life.com/

Another good online resource is Mark Sisson's blog. He does a lot of research and isn't one to spout off 'caveman' ideals...you may be able to find the relevant research on his site as well (though his definition of 'primal' does include some dairy):

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/welcome-to-marks-daily-apple/#axzz22VSN3YDS
I noticed the end of your last post after I posted. :)

Playing the devil's advocate here:
But the average leafy vegetable doesn't want to be eaten either, and there are all sorts of anti-herbivore compounds in those. Why is one better than the other?

I'm pretty sure that most of the benefits of whole grain comes from the fact that fiber just binds all the fat and a lot of other stuff in your intestine. And it doesn't surprise me that there's a bioavailability issue for certain compounds. But that should be true to one extent or another for any plant-based food... I'm also curious as to how it would work for fueling intense exercise--for me, fruit/veggie-derived carbs get burned off quickly. Maybe it's psychosomatic, but a combination of grain- and fruit-based carbs sticks around a bit longer for me.

I know you don't think this way, and I thank you for it, but I for one am a little tired of "Eliminating grains and dairy will solve all your problems!" I've had eczema issues since I was two. It isn't caused by diet; it's stress. Provided I ride my bike or get other intense exercise on a regular basis, it's a non-issue. And yet people (not here) still say that I should stop drinking milk or eating toast.

Anyway, I'll stop bringing my own issues into the discussion. I'm not anti-Paleo, just skeptical. I'm an everything-in-moderation kind of person--veggies, beans, beef, beer and cheesecake. ;) If it works for you, great! If you think you have something to gain from it, try it and tweak it.

And as always, if someone has a tasty recipe, feel free to share. I'm always up for new food. :D

Not trying to attack you, I swear.

Owlie

08-03-2012, 12:47 PM

Really, vegan and paleo both promote the eating of WHOLE FOODS over anything processed and a ton of vegetable/plant matter, so that's a huge start down the road to health, no matter how you look at it. The real debate would be grains/beans vs meat, and really, it is very much individual.

^That, I totally agree with. And I really could use some more veg in my diet.

I suspect a diet higher in meat and fruit/veggies and somewhat lower in grains (I don't do much dairy outside milk on my cereal and in my tea/coffee and a small amount of cheese, maybe the occasional quarter-cup of ice cream) would do well for me, with more grain on long ride days. It's so individual that it's impossible to say that any particular diet would work for any given person.

I'll get out of the pool now. But GLC, do you have a recipe for that curry you mentioned in the "What did you eat today?" thread?

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 01:05 PM

I noticed the end of your last post after I posted. :)

Playing the devil's advocate here:
But the average leafy vegetable doesn't want to be eaten either, and there are all sorts of anti-herbivore compounds in those. Why is one better than the other?

I'm pretty sure that most of the benefits of whole grain comes from the fact that fiber just binds all the fat and a lot of other stuff in your intestine. And it doesn't surprise me that there's a bioavailability issue for certain compounds. But that should be true to one extent or another for any plant-based food... I'm also curious as to how it would work for fueling intense exercise--for me, fruit/veggie-derived carbs get burned off quickly. Maybe it's psychosomatic, but a combination of grain- and fruit-based carbs sticks around a bit longer for me.

I know you don't think this way, and I thank you for it, but I for one am a little tired of "Eliminating grains and dairy will solve all your problems!" I've had eczema issues since I was two. It isn't caused by diet; it's stress. Provided I ride my bike or get other intense exercise on a regular basis, it's a non-issue. And yet people (not here) still say that I should stop drinking milk or eating toast.

Anyway, I'll stop bringing my own issues into the discussion. I'm not anti-Paleo, just skeptical. I'm an everything-in-moderation kind of person--veggies, beans, beef, beer and cheesecake. ;) If it works for you, great! If you think you have something to gain from it, try it and tweak it.

And as always, if someone has a tasty recipe, feel free to share. I'm always up for new food. :D

Not trying to attack you, I swear.

Nope, I totally get where you are coming from! A year ago, I might have felt like you were jumping all over my nerves on this one, but I've definitely mellowed. ;)

Generally, veggies have more fiber than whole grains too. I think the idea is that there is nothing in whole grains that you cannot get from vegetables, so we don't NEED them. Even the starches (which is the part that is utilized for fueling workouts) can be gotten from other types of plant matter (like potatoes or root veggies or fruits). I fuel best with these anyway, and they don't ever cause me digestive distress like some of the grains do.

I saw a comparison in a blog somewhere (I'll see if I can find it) where the person compared the soluble fiber content of oatmeal (said to improve cholesterol) with the fiber content of spinach (I think it was spinach!) and how it would work way better than oats but no one would buy eating a bowl of spinach for breakfast. Plus, oats have lobbyists! :p

Granted, there are a lot of things to be said for the taste, social aspect, and enjoyment of eating grains and most paleo proponents accept this as a fact and expect that no one will be 100% strict 100% of the time.

Owlie

08-03-2012, 01:19 PM

Nope, I totally get where you are coming from! A year ago, I might have felt like you were jumping all over my nerves on this one, but I've definitely mellowed. ;)

Generally, veggies have more fiber than whole grains too. I think the idea is that there is nothing in whole grains that you cannot get from vegetables, so we don't NEED them. Even the starches (which is the part that is utilized for fueling workouts) can be gotten from other types of plant matter (like potatoes or root veggies or fruits). I fuel best with these anyway, and they don't ever cause me digestive distress like some of the grains do.

I saw a comparison in a blog somewhere (I'll see if I can find it) where the person compared the soluble fiber content of oatmeal (said to improve cholesterol) with the fiber content of spinach (I think it was spinach!) and how it would work way better than oats but no one would buy eating a bowl of spinach for breakfast. Plus, oats have lobbyists! :p

Granted, there are a lot of things to be said for the taste, social aspect, and enjoyment of eating grains and most paleo proponents accept this as a fact and expect that no one will be 100% strict 100% of the time.

You finished my train of thought on the oatmeal matter. But I didn't need the "spinach for breakfast" image. Gross! (It would be acceptable as baby spinach in an omelet, though. I definitely pictured the limp dark green frozen stuff.)

Crankin

08-03-2012, 04:36 PM

Well, I eat *almost* no high glycemic carbs; no white rice, potatoes, and only occasional white bread (of the very high quality, bakery type) in a restaurant, no pastries, a little bit of soft serve ice cream in the summer. I cut down on some fruits and added in a lot more veggies. It's hard for my very sensitive stomach to digest the veggies. I eat a lot more fish now, too.
Since June, I've added some whole wheat bagels back in, as well as an occasional Luna Bar. I eat lots of nuts for snacks, but I need more than that right now.

Tri Girl

08-03-2012, 06:19 PM

But I didn't need the "spinach for breakfast" image. Gross! (It would be acceptable as baby spinach in an omelet, though. I definitely pictured the limp dark green frozen stuff.)

LOL
I have been known to eat sauteed veggies (sauteed in water) for breakfast- a mix of zucchini, squash, mushrooms, peppers, onions, and fresh baby spinach. My hubs just rolls his eyes at me. ;) He's SO not vegan (or even vegetarian for that matter).

goldfinch

08-03-2012, 07:23 PM

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 08:14 PM

But GLC, do you have a recipe for that curry you mentioned in the "What did you eat today?" thread?

I totally missed this the first time I read this thread! I don't really have a curry recipe as I usually just mix some coconut milk (the canned kind) in with a curry paste (store bought) until I get the consistency and spice level I like, then I pour it over heated veggies and cooked chicken. The thai pumpkin curry I mentioned is actually from a local thai place though!

Owlie

08-03-2012, 08:19 PM

LOL
I have been known to eat sauteed veggies (sauteed in water) for breakfast- a mix of zucchini, squash, mushrooms, peppers, onions, and fresh baby spinach. My hubs just rolls his eyes at me. ;) He's SO not vegan (or even vegetarian for that matter).

That would leave me really, really hungry. (I'm a carnivore. Bacon for breakfast!)

So, GLC, and other paleo people, I'm curious. What do you do for on-the-bike/run fuel, especially if you're one of those people who have a hard time with "real food" while riding/running?

GLC1968

08-03-2012, 09:06 PM

Throw a little sausage (or bacon) into that veggie scramble and you've got a good breakfast for me! :p

Owlie, since I've been super strict paleo, I haven't done any endurance workouts of any type, so I'm not sure what I'd do. When I was paleo last fall and running a lot, I'd have sweet potatoes or even regular potatoes the meal before long runs or races and then I'd do close to the same, afterward. I actually really liked to splurge on OJ after workouts figuring the sugar spike would probably be ok for me and I love me some fresh OJ!

During long runs, I would stray from paleo and supplement with gels. Now, I'm not sure I'd continue to do that as I've found some really awesome, portable, real food baby foods that I may use. They are just pureed fruits and veggies and if I stick to the starchier ones (like the ones using winter squash) I bet they would make great, portable run/ride food. I haven't tried this though!

Oh, and real portable fruit (like grapes or melon) and even dried fruit make great ride food that is easy to digest. It wouldn't work for me on runs though where I cannot really digest real food.

laura*

08-03-2012, 10:41 PM

It makes sense that dairy-derived calcium and plant-derived calcium would be absorbed differently.

John Robbins' "Diet for a New America" (or one of his other books) mentions calcium absorption vs fat: Calcium absorption is reduced in a high fat diet, enhanced in a low fat diet. Consuming dairy implies higher fat. What what I remember, adding dairy to one's diet may even be a net negative in calcium absorption.

Irulan

08-04-2012, 06:17 AM

Throw a little sausage (or bacon) into that veggie scramble and you've got a good breakfast for me! :p

This is where I get confused about Paleo. Sausage and bacon are filled with nitrates, artificial flavorings and preservatives. So you give up certain food groups only to add this back in? I don't get it. Granted, I'm not the most well informed person- I eat mostly whole and unprocessed foods anyway without a weight or energy problem, so I have not paid attention to the nuances of Paleo.

OakLeaf

08-04-2012, 07:00 AM

I don't even eat pork, but I see plenty of natural sausage and naturally cured meats at the local market.

GLC1968

08-04-2012, 12:09 PM

Ditto Oakleaf. It's expensive, but it's really easy to find pastured, humane un-cured, nitrate free bacon and sausage. And more often than not, I make my own bulk sausage from grass-fed ground beef and seasonings. Soooo good!

I now make my own guacamole, mayo, salad dressings/marinades, sausage, and tomato sauce because the store bought options all contain things I want to avoid.

Tri Girl

08-04-2012, 12:36 PM

That would leave me really, really hungry. (I'm a carnivore. Bacon for breakfast!)

I usually add some tofu if I have some, or some facon (vegan bacon).
Both are highly processed, but sometimes I want protein that's not in bean form. ;)

Dogmama

08-04-2012, 02:37 PM

Ditto Oakleaf. It's expensive, but it's really easy to find pastured, humane un-cured, nitrate free bacon and sausage.

Trader Joe's is a good source for this type of thing. They also have lunch meats that are uncured & nitrate free.

I've found that their bacon is meatier than most other types. And being nitrate free - it's almost guilt free. I save the bacon grease for my dog - he loves it.

Catrin

08-04-2012, 02:53 PM

Trader Joe's is a good source for this type of thing. They also have lunch meats that are uncured & nitrate free.

I've found that their bacon is meatier than most other types. And being nitrate free - it's almost guilt free. I save the bacon grease for my dog - he loves it.

I didn't know this about their bacon! I love bacon but haven't had it in years due to the nitrates.... Thanks!

westtexas

08-05-2012, 07:29 PM

So, GLC, and other paleo people, I'm curious. What do you do for on-the-bike/run fuel, especially if you're one of those people who have a hard time with "real food" while riding/running?

I honestly don't eat anything. Since going Paleo, I don't get that intense carb craving at hour 1. I always carry something, just in case, and I use Kind bars (the macademia nut and coconut or almond and apricot). You have to remember though that even a thin person has 10k calories of fat hanging around on their bodies that when you are adapted to living of it, you can access easily and steadily no matter your need.

Since last year, before I ride, I simply have a cup of coffee. And when I get home, I take a shower. And when I get hungry - be it right then or hours later - I eat something. I just eat when I'm hungry and I don't when I'm not. It's so easy.

Owlie

08-05-2012, 08:14 PM

I honestly don't eat anything. Since going Paleo, I don't get that intense carb craving at hour 1. I always carry something, just in case, and I use Kind bars (the macademia nut and coconut or almond and apricot). You have to remember though that even a thin person has 10k calories of fat hanging around on their bodies that when you are adapted to living of it, you can access easily and steadily no matter your need.

Since last year, before I ride, I simply have a cup of coffee. And when I get home, I take a shower. And when I get hungry - be it right then or hours later - I eat something. I just eat when I'm hungry and I don't when I'm not. It's so easy.

Makes sense. You and my SO are sort of the same. While he's not paleo, he can just go ride for 20 miles without eating anything. Anything longer, he does have to eat. I can't fathom leaving the house without breakfast! I must not be terribly efficient at accessing fat stores. Hey, adrenal glands! Get with the program!

Catrin

08-06-2012, 02:03 AM

Makes sense. You and my SO are sort of the same. While he's not paleo, he can just go ride for 20 miles without eating anything. Anything longer, he does have to eat. I can't fathom leaving the house without breakfast! I must not be terribly efficient at accessing fat stores. Hey, adrenal glands! Get with the program!

From what I am coming to understand, and I could be wrong, our body will use the carbs for energy if they exist before it will start tapping into the fat stores. That is probably a very simplistic understanding, and I am just starting to read on this. Obviously carbs come from many sources, not just the usual prospects, but if your body is accustomed to a certain level of carbs then it becomes very efficient at using them for energy and will complain if those accustomed levels aren't there.

I am becoming more and more curious about this - especially some research that appears to indicate that a primal diet is very good for those of us prone to insulin resistance. At some point I think I will need to give this a shot, but I need to have a better understanding first so I can make educated choices during that trial period.

I don't know that I would ever go 100% Paelo/primal - I like beer even though I may not drink more than 1-2 a week, and my occasional small dose of Blue Bell ice cream.

Rest day today if I like it or not - so will have time to do some good reading this evening...

westtexas

08-06-2012, 05:11 AM

I don't know that I would ever go 100% Paelo/primal - I like beer even though I may not drink more than 1-2 a week, and my occasional small dose of Blue Bell ice cream.

To me, this is the beauty of this "diet". It's more of a lifestyle and less of just what you are putting in your mouth. Even Mark Sisson (the Primal Blueprint/Mark's Daily Apple) talks about the 80/20 rule - 80% of the time you follow the plan with an allowance for 20% cheating - and he even gives suggestions for cheats that are "not-so-bad" for you, like red wine, dark chocolate, that bowl of full fat icecream. And I totally cheat, because I love popcorn and soda at the movies and I seriously cannot resist the chocolate bread pudding at my favorite restaurant.

I think it's about doing the best you can, for yourself and for your body, by feeding it right and enjoying yourself every now and then - even monkeys in jungles know how to eat fermented fruit that's spoiled so they can get buzzed.

I read an article once about Are You Paleo Enough? and it discussed how there are a lot of folk out there in the paleo community who think if you don't do it 100% all the time, how dare you even call yourself paleo, get thee back on your Standard American Diet. When really, every small change in the nutrition you put in your body has a positive effect. Life just really can't be that black and white.

Becky

08-06-2012, 06:01 AM

To me, this is the beauty of this "diet". It's more of a lifestyle and less of just what you are putting in your mouth. Even Mark Sisson (the Primal Blueprint/Mark's Daily Apple) talks about the 80/20 rule - 80% of the time you follow the plan with an allowance for 20% cheating - and he even gives suggestions for cheats that are "not-so-bad" for you, like red wine, dark chocolate, that bowl of full fat icecream. And I totally cheat, because I love popcorn and soda at the movies and I seriously cannot resist the chocolate bread pudding at my favorite restaurant.

I think it's about doing the best you can, for yourself and for your body, by feeding it right and enjoying yourself every now and then - even monkeys in jungles know how to eat fermented fruit that's spoiled so they can get buzzed.

I read an article once about Are You Paleo Enough? and it discussed how there are a lot of folk out there in the paleo community who think if you don't do it 100% all the time, how dare you even call yourself paleo, get thee back on your Standard American Diet. When really, every small change in the nutrition you put in your body has a positive effect. Life just really can't be that black and white.

Thank you for this, particularly the last paragraph. I've found myself reluctant to mention "paleo", since neither DH nor I are inclined to fully give up grains and booze. I made baigan bharta last night and felt a little guilty for serving it over brown rice, despite the fact that I had to stretch it somehow in order to feed both of us.

Sounds like I need to start reading Mark's Daily Apple for some motivation!

GLC1968

08-06-2012, 09:06 AM

I totally agree that you don't have to be 100% to get huge benefits (unless you have other health problems, of course). The first 9 or so months that I was paleo, we were eating pizza every couple of weeks, for pete's sake!!

Until I did this Whole30, I honestly didn't think I could be 100% paleo either. I regularly used raw honey, dark chocolate, wine, etc. I thought that giving it ALL up would be pure hell and I didn't want to live my life that way (and for me, paleo was about permanent lifestyle changes...not a 'diet').

What I HAVE found is that if I want to lose fat and really be 'fat-adapted' (which is a really awesome way to be partially for the reasons westtexas mentioned and partially because I no longer have to carry food with me wherever I go...including no longer packing a massive lunch bag for work), I cannot let all the little things sneak in. Generally, 80/20 doesn't work for me. I've seen a lot of evidence towards this and if you've ever been in a weight loss challenge with a man, you'll be able to relate. Mark Sisson and many other men in the paleo world can be fit, lean and cut on 80/20. Most women cannot. In fact, the only three women I know in the paleo world who are as lean as the men (from a feminine perspective) are Sarah Fragoso, Nell Stephenson and Melissa Hartwig. All three eat a cleaner than 80/20 diet. I think that's the reality of it, women are not as good at being 'fat-adapted' and we have to work a little harder to live that way. I'm sure it stems from the natural state of things where as child-bearing beings, women are naturally supposed to carry more fat than men.

If you want the health benefits of paleo, 80/20 is fines. If you want the fat loss, you probably have to be cleaner. My hope is that I can get to where I want to be and then live 80/20...but we'll see. 90/10 is fine with me too. :)

Anyway, I had sushi on Friday (with rice) and it was delicious and I had no ill effects. So now I know that I can eat sushi every once in awhile and I fully intend to! ;)

solobiker

08-06-2012, 03:58 PM

I have been off and on with the paleo lifestyle...I have eaten very clean with no cheating for close to 3 weeks and have gained about 4 pounds. I am pretty frustrated by this. I know it is a healty way to eat...but why the 4 pounds...?? My typical daily intake is below:

B: Eggs ( usually 1 but sometimes 2) with some chicken sausage and veggies

S: I sometimes do not have a snack but if I do it is a small piece of fruit like an apple

L: Chicken and lots of chopped up veggies

D: Big salad, no dressing and some meat...fish, steak.

I will occ have some nut butter with celery for a snack as well.

To me I seem to be eating pretty clean...maybe it is the nut butter's high calorie content. Any insight from those of you that had good results.. And I have been taking measurements and there is no change there either. I am 42 so maybe it is an "old" lady issue:p I also get a fair amount of exercise in. Sorry for the venting...just frustrated.

GLC1968

08-06-2012, 04:32 PM

I know it's counter-intuitive and I would have flat out argued against what I'm about to say even just a few months ago.

1) I don't think you are eating enough fat
2) I don't think you are eating enough calories

#1 would clearly take care of #2, though. Yes, calories count, I'm not arguing otherwise...I just think that we have gotten entirely too used to too few calories and our bodies are confused. I should add up a typical day...maybe I'll do that tonight if I have time, but I am eating WAY more now than I ever have and I'm steadily losing fat even without exercise (or much of it, anyway).

Came back to add that I'm 44, so it's not the age thing! ;)

Catrin

08-06-2012, 04:40 PM

I HAVE had large issues with not consuming enough calories - you might remember my venting about this earlier in the year. When we don't get enough our bodies just don't want to give our fat stores up - and it is true that we have to work harder than men to do this.

While I've not lost a lot once I increased my calorie intake by close to 40%, I've really not gained anything either. My weight is trending about 2 pounds lower than before I added the calories. My diet is pretty clean where processed and whole foods are concerned, but of course I've still been eating sprouted grain bread and whole grains about 2-3 times a day.

GLC - do you eat snacks, or before you go on a long ride? Westtexas' comment that she didn't even have to eat before going out to ride got my attention. Obviously she didn't just start eating this way the other day...

solobiker

08-06-2012, 06:00 PM

Owlie

08-06-2012, 06:07 PM

From what I am coming to understand, and I could be wrong, our body will use the carbs for energy if they exist before it will start tapping into the fat stores. That is probably a very simplistic understanding, and I am just starting to read on this. Obviously carbs come from many sources, not just the usual prospects, but if your body is accustomed to a certain level of carbs then it becomes very efficient at using them for energy and will complain if those accustomed levels aren't there.

I am becoming more and more curious about this - especially some research that appears to indicate that a primal diet is very good for those of us prone to insulin resistance. At some point I think I will need to give this a shot, but I need to have a better understanding first so I can make educated choices during that trial period.

I don't know that I would ever go 100% Paelo/primal - I like beer even though I may not drink more than 1-2 a week, and my occasional small dose of Blue Bell ice cream.

Rest day today if I like it or not - so will have time to do some good reading this evening...

Biochemist. I am aware of this. ;)

My not leaving the house without breakfast is less carb-driven, though topping off the fuel tank so I'm not burning my glycogen supply right out of the gate helps. It's protein and fat. I can do bacon, an egg and a single slice of buttered toast for breakfast and be happy, riding or not. My normal morning breakfast cereal is quite generous with the pecans, which helps with the protein and fat.

So a modified version of Paleo (that allows for beer and cheesecake and butter and all that good stuff) might work. I know I operate better on a higher fat and protein diet, anyway.

Catrin

08-07-2012, 01:28 AM

Thanks for your replies...and I knew I wouuld get called out on the age thing..:p

As for fat...I have been eating the skin on my chicken which I would think would be okay...or am I wrong with that? I also enjoy almonds. When I cook eggs I cook them in butter.

I track my food on The Daily Plate and usually get about 1200-1500 calories/day. I try to keep my carbs between 50-100 grams, fat between 70-90 and protien stays around 100. Hmmm.

I will stick with it for a few more weeks to see what happens. I guess I am not too concerned with the whole weight thing..I would just like to lean out which I definately could stand to do. ( 5' 6" and about 140-145) Thanks for your input and I will keep you posted. I will gladly accept any other recommendations too. :)

I am 5'3, 134.5 pounds and get 1,650-2,100 calories, protein between 115-140 grams (rest days vs non-rest days), fat averages between 50-60 grams currently and carbs around 180 (obviously I am not Paleo right now). Long ride days, or days with multiple physical activities, I really try to NET 1,300 calories but have been unable to do that.

Your current calorie targets are the same mine used to be before they convinced me that I needed to eat more...

I don't how I am going to divide my calories up when I try my Primal/Paleo experiment but it is going to be interesting! I do wonder about the adjustment period as the body switches energy sources, but we will see how it goes. I have plenty of fat around my middle that my body can use for energy, so I want to encourage it to do so ;)

Catrin

08-07-2012, 01:30 AM

Biochemist. I am aware of this. ;)

I forgot that... sorry! :)

westtexas

08-07-2012, 05:15 AM

So a modified version of Paleo (that allows for beer and cheesecake and butter and all that good stuff) might work. I know I operate better on a higher fat and protein diet, anyway.

Speaking of butter... have you tried Ghee?? Mmm buttery deliciousness without the dairy. My system is not coconut oil friendly, so that's what I use to make my omelettes in the morning... and essentially other meat product that tastes great with butter. Also veggies.

Catrin

08-07-2012, 05:22 AM

Speaking of butter... have you tried Ghee?? Mmm buttery deliciousness without the dairy. My system is not coconut oil friendly, so that's what I use to make my omelettes in the morning... and essentially other meat product that tastes great with butter. Also veggies.

hmm, will have to check this out.

I've been doing a lot of reading on Mark Apple's site which has been rather attention getting, especially his discussion on the carbohydrate curve. I checked out his "Primal Blueprint" electronically from my library along with "The Paleo Answer". I am waiting for a hard copy of "The Paleo Diet" to show up from the library.

I think I am starting to understand why I've been at this plateu for so long. I dropped a little when I increased my calorie intake 40%, but my nutritionist insisted that I needed 200 grams of carbs daily... My BMI is barely in the normal range and I really want to see that change. It certainly isn't from not exercising or caloric intake. While my nutritionist insists that a calorie is a calorie is a calorie (assuming you aren't eating junk food), I strongly disagree with her on this one. I've suspected for a time that it is time to change something about my diet and this just might be it.

GLC1968

08-07-2012, 07:33 AM

Catrin - no, I don't snack anymore. I did when I was paleo before, but I'm sure my need for snacks stemmed from my inability to let go of all the carbs I was eating. I was closer to 150 - 200 back then and even with a lot of running, I was not losing any weight either.

Since I did the Whole30, my carbs hover just below 100 per day and I no longer feel the need to snack at all. I haven't done any long rides (really, except for a few 25 milers) but no, I don't need to 'fuel' specifically for those. I just do whatever exercise I do and then eat when I'm hungry which is normally just at meal times. This past weekend, I added a couple of two-hour kayaking sessions and did not need to increase my calories/intake at all either day. I think that exercise less than 120 minutes, I'd probably be fine without extra fuel unless it was super intense exercise (like a race). We'll see how it goes as I start ramping up my activity going forward!

I just looked up one of my days that I tracked a month or so ago. On zero exercise, I ate 1780 calories, 50% fat, 23% carb and 27% protein. Carbs were 93 g for the day and that included eating sweet potato with dinner. I would say it was close to a typical day if maybe a tad low in quantity/calories. And keep in mind, I am actively losing weight. When I ate that meal, I was 157 lbs. Today I am 147, so even on 1800 calories a day and no exercise, I am losing fat. If you all are active, you NEED to eat more! Eat that avocado and ghee!

(I agree that ghee is awesome. I made my own a month ago and now it's my second choice fat, after bacon fat, for cooking and melted on veggies, it tastes positively decadent).

Catrin

08-07-2012, 07:46 AM

I just looked up a recipe for ghee, so it is basically cooked butter that has had the oil strained from it? hmmm, will have to try this. For some reason I thought ghee was sheeps milk butter or something like that and I've been afraid to try it.

I need to start thinking how to approach this test, frankly I think that cutting out the steel-cut oats and bread will pretty much cut my carbs in half. I just need to think about what to replace that with and get my protein/carb/fat balance where I need it to be. I've a long ride at an event on Sept 22, so that should give me enough time to figure this out.

Back to reading. I like that Mark Apple provides a list of shopping ideas to get started. I've really depended on non-fat dairy for close to half of my protein intake - I just realized that non-fat dairy is pretty high in sodium and I've been noting some occasional blood pressure issues...typically I've close to low blood pressure so am pretty sure this is related to sodium intake.

GLC that helps, thanks! As an active woman it really helps to have an idea how this has worked for another active woman. With the new functional training I've added as cross-training my activity level has really ramped up this summer.

GLC1968

08-07-2012, 07:53 AM

solobiker

08-07-2012, 08:07 AM

This has been great reading. I too have been reading a lot of posts on MDA and have learned quite a bit and have gotten a lot of good ideas. They have some good recipes on there too. What do you guys think of my meal plan for today?

B: 2 eggs cooked in butter with 1/2 chicken sausage and veggies

L Chicken thigh with the skin on, veggies

D: Plan is for a taco salad..no dressing

Any thoughts?

Veronica

08-07-2012, 08:10 AM

I'd be hungry on that.

Veronica

Catrin

08-07-2012, 08:20 AM

I'd be hungry on that.

Veronica

As would I...

solobiker

08-07-2012, 08:30 AM

How many oz of chicken, steak or fish would you say that you eat at each meal? I usually have around 4oz. Maybe I should bump it up a bit. I am not too hungry for the most part but maybe I am just trying to ignore it.:rolleyes: Maybe I should bump up my calories. I am trying to decrease my fruit too becuase I think the sugar makes me feel more hungry.

I feel bad typing this at work..I am on my bosses computer because she is in a meeting right now and my patients are busy with their exercises. :)

Thanks again!!

GLC1968

08-07-2012, 09:05 AM

Becky

08-07-2012, 09:55 AM

Everything is better with guacamole, by the way. Or bacon. :p

OMG, yes. This is my favorite part about this "diet"....!

GLC1968

08-07-2012, 10:38 AM

OMG, yes. This is my favorite part about this "diet"....!

I agree. But funny thing is, before I went paleo I didn't like either quacamole (or avocado) or bacon or chicken skin or egg yolks!

Veronica

08-07-2012, 10:40 AM

I do six ounces of chicken for my meals.

Veronica

ccnyc

08-07-2012, 12:09 PM

Ghee is basically the same thing as drawn butter (or clarified butter). It's super easy to make - just melt butter in a pot, skim off the solids using a spoon, and then the remaining beautiful yellow liquid is purely the butter fat (no milk solids). I put mine into half pint ball jars and put them in the fridge. It's REALLY hard, but softens with warmth very, very quickly.

I think that Ghee actually may have some spices in it (the Indian stuff you buy at our local store does) but mine is plain. Oh, and I used pastured butter to make it.

If you don't have time to make it yourself Purity Farms Ghee is very good. No spices and you can get it at Whole Foods.
http://purityfarms.com/
Traditional 100%, Certified Organic Ghee (Clarified Butter) From Grass Fed, Pastured Cows
Salt Free • Lactose and Casein Free • No Transfatty Acids • Kosher • No GMO's (No Genetically Modified Organisms)

Ghee is fabulous!!!

solobiker

08-07-2012, 12:37 PM

Catrin

08-07-2012, 12:57 PM

Wow...I usually only have 1-2 eggs at breakfast and 1 chicken thigh (with the skin) or about 4oz of chicken at lunch.. I think I will ramp it up a bit and see what happens. I do enjoy eating this more then the SAD way. I don't miss too many things...although last weekend I went on a short run and could smell that someone was baking some bread...yumm. But bacon will do too!:D

My normal breakfast includes either 2 egg whites + 1 whole egg or 2 whole eggs and 1 egg white. How much chicken I have at meals depends on how hard I've been working, 4-6 ounces but I've also been getting protein from skim milk. I don't think I am going to drop grains AND dairy at the same time. Grains first...and there seems to be differing opinions on dairy but of course they aren't talking about skim milk.

Back to my reading. I think I want to start this with a menu already thought out for a week or two so I don't have to think too much.

Catrin

08-08-2012, 05:16 AM

So I tried GLC's idea for a frittata this morning before heading to my workout and it was good - had that and a plum (baked it last night). The 6am class kicked my butt...and I had a protein drink waiting on ice in my car.

Do any of you supplement with protein shakes/drinks after a hard workout? It seems to me that if I am getting enough in my diet that perhaps it isn't needed - but as I am figuring out this new way of fueling my body I want to hold off on dropping that - at least for the two intense workouts with the group trainer - he totally kicks my azz. This isn't needed after a long ride or less intense workout session.

westtexas

08-08-2012, 10:06 AM

As would I...

Me too. No dressing? Make your own mayo - it's easy. All you need is olive oil (regular, NOT virgin, or it'll be olive oily in flavor), an egg, some dried mustard and lemon juice. Takes ~35 minutes because you have to let the egg and lemon juice come to temp together (very important). After the mayo is made (and it's good in your fridge until your egg expires on the carton) I add balsalmic vingear, or lime juice or whatever to make creamy dressing. Fatty and delicious.

I think the biggest hang up people have with Paleo is the fat. Don't be afraid! Be afraid of carbs, not your fat intake. I eat a ton of it at every meal and my weight is exactly where it should be. And I definitely don't count calories. I eat when I'm hungry and until I'm full. It's awesome.

As for the ghee - I buy mine in the store. It's made by Purity Cow and comes in a glass jar with a big blue label. It's not flavored/seasoned and it's great.

Dogmama

08-08-2012, 11:42 AM

Do any of you supplement with protein shakes/drinks after a hard workout? It seems to me that if I am getting enough in my diet that perhaps it isn't needed - but as I am figuring out this new way of fueling my body I want to hold off on dropping that - at least for the two intense workouts with the group trainer - he totally kicks my azz. This isn't needed after a long ride or less intense workout session.

I use a protein drink before a hard workout. I read some research that protein* before a workout is more beneficial because when your body needs it, it has been digested enough to be absorbed into your muscles.

*Whey protein is "fast" protein - gets into your system quicker. Casein is a slower protein and is also important for constant fuel during the day as well as fuel at night while you sleep.

Catrin

08-08-2012, 01:05 PM

Thanks Dogmama, that is helpful information. I can eat a regular brekie before heading to my 6am workout, but it is HARD, which is why I take something afterwards. I will think about this, and I've not yet settled on a protein powder yet. Whey protein does seem the way to go...and soy gives me stomach issues anyway...

Pedal Wench

08-08-2012, 02:32 PM

Catrin

08-09-2012, 04:56 AM

I've read stories on the Daily Apple website from people who have done a pretty extreme endurance event (not cycling) while sticking to a primal/paleo diet, and some do supplement with more carbs for athletic activities. It will be interesting to know if any TE members can answer Pedal Wrenches question.

Yesterday I started decreasing my carbs by cutting out my oats and usual bread - and while I did increase protein and fat I failed miserably at meeting my calorie targets for a hard exercise day (by more than 1,000) (hard workout in the morning and evening ride though my evening ride was quite short and gentle).

This tells me that I've depended on grains when they told me to increase my calories so much and I didn't realize it... I need to check out all of the suggested menus and recipes a bit more thoroughly.

westtexas

08-09-2012, 05:30 AM

Is anyone following this who regularly does long rides? I ride at least 40-50 miles a day, usually every day. In Colorado, that can mean 4-5 hours on the bike. What do you use for fuel during the rides, and how do you recover enough to do it all again the next day?

At the beginning of this year, this is what I was doing. At that point I had been paleo for approximately 4 months. I was riding 55 miles both days on the weekends and 30 miles on weekdays - in 100 degree west Texas heat.

I just kept up with my water intake and ate like normal. I had coffee in the morning on the weekends before my rides and after my shower upon returning home, I'd have some eggs, bacon and macadamia nuts, maybe a piece of fruit and some veggies.

During the week, I'd ride after I got home from work and then after my shower I would have a normal dinner.

Never really had a problem with recovery or bonking on the bike. I will mention though, that at this point I was also really used to Intermittent Fasting - where I would go 24 hours or so without eating anything without an issue, while still doing my normal work schedule, so I knew I could go a long time without fuel and be fine.

gnat23

08-09-2012, 08:09 AM

Supposedly, if you've been doing Paleo long enough, your body adapts to doing endurance exercise on limited carbs, running strictly on fat.

Not me! My body never adapted well. I had epic bonks an hour into any ride. That horrible feeling of wanting to yak half-way up a climb. Having to lean over the handlebars and breathe heavily for five minutes while the stars swirling around my head subside.

I had better results with carbing up near the ride and going strict the rest of the time:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Paleo-Diet-Athletes-Nutritional/dp/1594860890
http://www.trainingbible.com/pdf/Paleo_for_Athletes_Cliff_Notes.pdf

-- gnat! (Gotta really like sweet potatoes, tho!)

Crankin

08-09-2012, 09:01 AM

Yesterday, I had no carbs before a hard, hot ride. Right before I left, I started craving bread really badly. I wolfed down a piece of Ezekial bread with soy nut butter as I was going out the door. I had a high protein breakfast, otherwise. I tried to just eat the walnuts I brought during the ride, but I started feeling increasingly out of it; I had to eat almost all of a Luna Bar and a Shot Block to make it home.

ny biker

08-09-2012, 09:13 AM

So bacon is considered a healthy food on this diet?

indysteel

08-09-2012, 09:17 AM

I'm a little confused. A Paleo diet isn't carb free, just grain free, right? For instance, some of the fruit that GLC lists in the "what did you eat today thread," e.g., apples and bananas, have just as many carbs as a packet of instant oatmeal. So, if I eat a banana before a morning ride (as I often do), then my body isn't going to use fat as a fuel source any more readily than if I'd had that packet of oatmeal. Or am I missing something?

westtexas

08-09-2012, 05:39 PM

Paleo is grain free (among other things) but considered to be low-carb. Not very-low-carb, but definitely the idea is to limit your carbs and when eating them, choose carbs that are low-glycemic index and are vegetable or fruit based (not gluten-free substitutions for processed foods). The fruits that are encouraged are meant to be eaten in small quantities - berries are considered best for their antioxidant properties. I used to eat fruit ALL the time, but have cut waaaaay back since going paleo. Just a handful of blueberries, blackberries or raspberries for breakfast, and maybe some for dessert too.

Bananas are really great because they are full of vitamins and minerals - but they are a huge carb bomb when you compare them to other fruits. Same with apples. However, they are still healthier than a lot of the processed things you could be choosing instead and the sugars are all natural.

Ny Biker - yes bacon is considered healthy. It's a great source of saturated animal fat. You probably still shouldn't have it at every meal, but it's definitely not considered sinful like on the standard american diet. You just have to be careful that you choose uncured, all-natural bacon, because the cured stuff is full of nitrites and sugar and preservatives. I'd say that when I first went Paleo I spent a TON of time learning to read labels and I really shopped around to find the best brands. Now it's easy and I have my go to favorites that I know are clean and safe to eat.

Becky

08-09-2012, 06:11 PM

Uncured bacon seems to be easy enough to find around here, but I'm struggling to locate bacon (or sausage for that matter) without any added sugar. Why is there sugar in my meat? :eek:

solobiker

08-09-2012, 06:33 PM

solobiker - I'd bump the eggs to three (a serving size is how many you can hold in one hand!), bump the chicken thighs to two (and definitely eat the skin) and make sure to dump a big scoop of quac on the taco salad. ;) I would also drizzle some olive oil on the veggies.

Everything is better with guacamole, by the way. Or bacon. :p

Wow..I am trying to eat more but I am just not hungry. It is pretty tough to do. Maybe it is because I am used to eating "smaller" amounts. People at work always pick on me for eating like a bird. :)

Catrin

08-10-2012, 12:51 AM

Wow..I am trying to eat more but I am just not hungry. It is pretty tough to do. Maybe it is because I am used to eating "smaller" amounts. People at work always pick on me for eating like a bird. :)

I have this problem as well, my body adapted to eating so little for so long that it no longer complained at the lack of calories (probably just gave up) and I became accustomed to eating a certain volume of food. It makes it challenging when we try to start eating more. After just a couple of days or easing into this new way of fueling my body, I've realized that I dealt with the need to increase my calories by 40% earlier this year by simply adding grains, some oil and nuts but mainly grains :o I've been told the answer is to consume more nutritionally dense foods - which we both are - but we need more of them ;)

Pedal Wench

08-10-2012, 09:55 AM

Thanks for the input. I don't have much weight to lose, so I'm really just looking to see if Paleo or Whole30 would work for me to just clean things up a bit.

westtexas

08-10-2012, 03:07 PM

Thanks for the input. I don't have much weight to lose, so I'm really just looking to see if Paleo or Whole30 would work for me to just clean things up a bit.

I think that it would. I didn't really have weight to lose either. And honestly, I am the same weight now as I was this time last year, but I'm significantly leaner (less %body fat) and way more muscular.

Catrin

08-10-2012, 03:24 PM

I think that it would. I didn't really have weight to lose either. And honestly, I am the same weight now as I was this time last year, but I'm significantly leaner (less %body fat) and way more muscular.

This is what I am after as well, my weight isn't much off my desired target.

Susan

08-11-2012, 04:41 AM

Uncured bacon seems to be easy enough to find around here, but I'm struggling to locate bacon (or sausage for that matter) without any added sugar. Why is there sugar in my meat? :eek:

I'm not sure if it is the same with store bought bacon, but from curing Bacon at home I know that you can use either a special salt for curing that contains nitrit, or you use sugar: this prevents the meat from becoming grey during pickling (? not sure if it is the right word. The step before curing/smoking where you add salt and herbs) when curing or smoking.
Sugar is the better alternative in my opinion. I don't think that there is a lot of sugar IN the bacon after curing, or you would taste it.

Catrin

08-11-2012, 04:47 AM

I'm not sure if it is the same with store bought bacon, but from curing Bacon at home I know that you can use either a special salt for curing that contains nitrit, or you use sugar: this prevents the meat from becoming grey during pickling (? not sure if it is the right word. The step before curing/smoking where you add salt and herbs) when curing or smoking.
Sugar is the better alternative in my opinion. I don't think that there is a lot of sugar IN the bacon after curing, or you would taste it.

Interesting information, thank you! I notice my package of uncured bacon still has Turabino sugar in it - unsure why since it is uncured, but obviously there is still some processing. Nothing I can't pronounce however :cool:

Catrin

08-12-2012, 02:36 AM

Wow, after only 3 days of no grains and bumping up fat, protein and veggies I've lost almost 3 pounds! I've read that grains promote water weight and bloating (among other things), but this seems to prove that. My calorie intake is consistent so it wasn't from starving myself, indeed yesterday I ate a little more than normal. Felt great, no energy problems, and also no early-afternoon crash that I am accustomed to - and it was like that the day before as well.

Friday I only had a short, though hard, 30 minute workout and yesterday just had a really short recovery road ride. Today I've my usual "Funday" workout this morning and a good ride planned for late afternoon.

Crankin

08-12-2012, 03:40 AM

I bought regular (pork) bacon at Trader Joe's yesterday. About to test it out now. It has no sugar or nitrates. I looked for beef bacon, but none. I can't find that, anywhere. I've been eating turkey bacon for years, and really prefer the taste, but I'm willing to try the additive-free pork.
I've been craving grains like crazy since I got back from my vacation, where I ate with no abandon. My weight has been up and down, still not in the "danger" zone, so I am not sure what is going on, except that I've been sick with sinus stuff and this often makes me want comfort foods, like bread and bagels. I've given in, mostly, although all whole wheat stuff, except for the pancakes DH made yesterday morning :).
And what are coconut aminos? I see this in almost all of the recipes in the Paleo cookbook I bought. I assume they add fat to make you feel full. Really don't like the taste of coconut and I have no idea where you would buy them. I've made the recipes without this addition.

Catrin

08-12-2012, 04:22 AM

I tried that same bacon this morning, pretty good! I don't know anything about coconut aminos, but have read very good things about the quality of coconut oil and what it does in the body. As I slowly rebuild my pantry I want to add it to the mix.

I am really liking Mark Sisson's website. All I am really concerned about right now is the calcium part of the equation, given my age and lack of a reproductive system, I may just add a daily supplement.

Becky

08-12-2012, 06:03 AM

Coconut aminos are a soy-free alternative to soy sauce. I haven't bought this yet, but my understanding is that it's rich and salty in flavor.

Re: calcium: my health coach at work sent me this list (http://www.health-and-natural-healing.com/foods-containing-calcium.html) of dairy-free that contain decent amount of calcium.

solobiker

08-12-2012, 07:32 AM

I enjoy MDA too. Find it interesting and have enjoyed trying some of the recipes I have found. Initially I lost about 3 pounds (I think it was water weight) after my first week. It then went back up to the orginal weight...which I think is because my body was getting used to the way I was eating. I have been taking measurements and my waist and thighs have gotten smaller:D. I have not had any processed foods in over a month and I feel great. Unfortunately my fridge has been having issues and this morning I woke up to it sitting at 65 degrees. Grrrrrrr.

Catrin

08-12-2012, 07:50 AM

Hi Catrin,

Glad you like MarksDailyApple! I've learned a lot from that site over the last couple years. I follow most of the things he recommends, but for what it's worth, I still eat greek yogurt every day, as well as some cheese. I eliminated dairy for over a month and didn't notice any difference.

Jennifer

I am going to try dairy elimination to see what my body thinks about it, but not just yet - not trying to change everything at the same time ;) I have backed off on it however and trying to get more calcium-rich veggies and fish in my diet. From what my reading tells me, the latter two choices appear to often be more easily accessible to the body anyway, but we shall see.

My trainer has recommended the book "Slow Burn (http://www.amazon.com/Slow-Burn-Faster-Exercising-Slower/dp/0062736744/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1344785203&sr=1-3&keywords=slow+burn)" as well. The author is an endurance runner (571 miles in 6 days!), not a cyclist, but it should be interesting as I am sure there is more common than not to fueling for endurance activities in general. My library has it so I've requested it.

Susan

08-12-2012, 12:15 PM

I have been considering giving Paleo - at least the grain-free (gluten free) part of it, I can't imagine giving up milk and yoghurt - a shot for quite a while now. The reason I didn't commit myself to it fully is that it is really complicated if you eat out or with other people. I do cook gluten-free myelf most of the time and don't terribly miss grains or bread. But at my parents home there is just no meal that is gluten-free. And you never really know what you get when you eat out.

How do you deal with this problem?

Gypsy

08-12-2012, 12:55 PM

I'm slowly easing into eating Paleo.

It hasn't been as hard as I thought. Dairy was affecting the ezcema on my hands, and eliminating it has significantly improved it. I found that out accidentally -- I went a week without eating any cheese and I didn't itch! That made me look into elimination diets and that brought up Paleo for me.

I wasn't a big grain eater anyway -- I had avoided breads for a while, although when I traveled, I would eat some in restaurants, or just occasionally in my home city, but at good restaurants. It was never significant. I was eating a lot of legumes and brown rice and I've eliminated those as well. I'm replacing it with more vegetables and fruit and my carb % has gone down significantly, around 150-160 grams (which I know is NOT that low) and it's made me realize that what I thought was medium to low carb diet was not really... Denial, not just a river in Egypt.

Anyway, I haven't had an issue eating out in restaurants, because I will try to go with a protein and a vegetable. Yes, maybe they are using some kind of gluten product in the cooking, but I am not sensitive or celiac, so I am not rigid about my eating to insist that they prepare "clean."

As for eating with my parents, who are big legume eaters, we just had a conversation about it. I told them what I was doing, we talked, they understood and were willing to accommodate IF.... and only IF... I would help them cook so that they could be sure I was getting what I needed. Love them!:D

(For dairy, because I saw a reaction, stopping eating yogurt was easy -- I didn't want my hands to flare up. Same thing with cheese. I had a couple of instances where I would forget the effect, eat cheese, and then wake up scratching my hands in the middle of the night. Doing that a couple of times has made me hyper aware of the situation and if I eat cheese from now on, it will be with the full knowledge that I am going to hurt myself by doing so.)

westtexas

08-12-2012, 06:04 PM

The reason I didn't commit myself to it fully is that it is really complicated if you eat out or with other people.
How do you deal with this problem?

So, this was a hang up for me too. I love going to restaurants and trying new things, and it can definitely be difficult sometimes to find something paleo-friendly on the menu. You just have to make smart choices. Go for meat and veggie plates that have no breading. Or salad (hold the croutons, of course). The idea of Paleo is not that everything has to be 100% perfect all the time. I still drink when I go out (especially with my mom!) and if the place has great dessert, I often splurge. You just have decide if it's worth it for you, your health, your personal internal system.

What I have found for eating out though, is that I have to go to real places - not chains. Chilis, Cheddar's, Olive Garden... those places make (in my opinion) fairly terrible food anyway. I go with my co-workers every now and then (for staff meetings and such), and do the best I can. If it's me and friends, I suggest a place that meets my needs. Everyone is always saying they don't want to decide, so now I do it for them. You just have to explore and find those great places that have good, high quality food. There are plenty here that have that, and it's not any more expensive than eating at a chain or what have you.

I've also found that by telling my friends about what I'm doing - they support me in it. They try to find places where we can all go and find something to eat that we like. And their support helps you stick to it and keep on that road to better health.

GLC1968

08-13-2012, 11:00 AM

I agree with westtexas about dining out. Nicer places are easier too because they are more willing to bend over backwards for you, if you ask. I have at least one item that I can order at just about every local restaurant, so it's not that difficult. I do find that we eat out a lot less, so when we do, we pick nicer places and make a point of enjoying the environment, company and service as much as the food.

As far as bacon goes, it must be cured with either sugar or nitrites. In the US, 'uncured' on the package means that it was not cured with nitrites. Uncured and sugarless bacon is kind of ugly and it tastes different than what one expects. Only trace sugar is left in the meat after the sugar curing process, so it's a personal choice as to what kinds of sugar you are ok with. Bacon is cured with regular sugar, turbinado sugar, honey, maple syrup or even corn syrup...so read labels. Personally, I'll take trace amounts of natural sugars over nitrites, any day.

A bigger concern with bacon is what is in the fat. A big problem with high fat, industrial meat is that the bad things an animal is exposed to ends up concentrated in the fat. So since bacon is so high in fat, a pig fed a lot of antibiotics or hormones will produce bacon full of this stuff. This is why most paleo diet proponents recommend only lean meats if you are buying traditionally raised (ie factory farmed) meat. If you can get pastured grass-fed meat, then the fat is actually healthy for you, so eating it is no big deal. This is my long way of saying that more important than how your bacon was processed is how the pig was raised when it comes to heath.

Honestly, I've become so incredibly particular about the products that I'll buy since doing this Whole30 that we do our grocery shopping at 4 different places every week. (plus our CSA and our own raised stuff) It is kind of a pain, but it's worth it to me.

Susan

08-13-2012, 02:30 PM

I can imagine eating out is not so much trouble because you can order whatever you like. I think my usual order - some kind of salad with some kind of meat - is already quite paleo. Still, if you want to go strictly gluten free you never know if the maybe used flour or anything like that...

The bigger problem I guess would be family and friends. You don't want to be disrespectful and eat what they offer... this is a big problem for me anyways, glutenfree would make it even more of an issue. On the other hand... it would be an obvious reason not to be able to eat cakes :D

I'm often astonished what cooks - at home or in restaurants - make out of simple dishes. Sometimes you don't quite get what you expect. Vegetables get drenched in sauce or salad comes with strange dressings... my mum regularly asks "And what do we do with the vegetables" (will we cover them in breadcrumbs? will we drench them in oil? could we add flavour enhancer? ;))

GLC1968

08-13-2012, 03:07 PM

The friends thing can be a little difficult at first. We actually had plans to dine with some friends we don't see that often during our super strict Whole30. They are kind of 'foodies' (I hate that term, but it really applies to them!) so we knew they would go all out for us. I stressed about it for a week wondering how we were going to handle it and then I decided that it would be easier to have them to our place. So I explained our special diet needs and asked if we could do the cooking and they agreed! Dinner was fun, somewhat fancy, delicious and totally Whole30 compliant.

These same friends asked us a lot of questions about our meal choices and when they led a kayaking trip a month later, purposely chose a meal that was mostly compliant to our diet for us. In fact, the other couple that went also did the same thing (ie, asked our needs when planning their meal), so really, it wasn't nearly as difficult as I expected it to be.

It would be tough if someone made a lasagna dinner with cheesy garlic bread on the side, but typically, if you let friends know ahead of time what you are avoiding, most things people put on the table are ok. And really, regular people don't hide gluten, soy or seed oils in their dishes, so it's usually not too difficult for them to just avoid serving pasta dishes on the night you'll be a guest. :)

I will say that for the first month or two we were paleo, I avoided a lot of invitations because I felt like a burden. Once I got a better hang of eating this way, it was easier to ask and easier to deal with on my end. Even my mom was willing to accomodate me and she's VERY anti anything that limits bread and/or wine from her diet. ;)

solobiker

08-13-2012, 03:18 PM

I have not run into too many problems with going out to eat because for the most part we really don't do it all that often...maybe 1x/month. Lately my trouble has been that our refrigerator has not been working great. About 2 weeks ago the freezer was working and the refirgerator stopped..it was sitting at 65 degrees. After 2 days we were able to get a repairman out to fix it and when he got here it was working. He could not find anything wrong so we had him change the timer out. Well come this Saturday the same darn thing happened again. I had to try to put lots of food in a cooler and I go to get some of my chicken that I had cooked and it is sitting in a pool of water from the melted ice. :( But I am holding strong despite not having a fridge to use for close to a week if you count both times it went out. We did get another one but they delivered the wrong one. :mad: Sigh....

westtexas

08-13-2012, 05:31 PM

A bigger concern with bacon is what is in the fat. A big problem with high fat, industrial meat is that the bad things an animal is exposed to ends up concentrated in the fat. So since bacon is so high in fat, a pig fed a lot of antibiotics or hormones will produce bacon full of this stuff. This is why most paleo diet proponents recommend only lean meats if you are buying traditionally raised (ie factory farmed) meat. If you can get pastured grass-fed meat, then the fat is actually healthy for you, so eating it is no big deal. This is my long way of saying that more important than how your bacon was processed is how the pig was raised when it comes to heath.

Keep in mind that in America, pigs cannot be given hormones. Any antibiotic given puts that hog on a Withdrawal list - meaning they cannot be slaughtered before a certain number of days determined by regulatory agencies after administration of that product. Generally this allows for any drug residues to be "washed out" of the tissue. The only major antibiotic I know of that is in regular use on most swine farms is Tylosin, which treats the chronic diarrhea these guys can get.

Of course pasture raised and grass fed is better in all respects, as those animals are not likely to have been exposed to antibiotics at all - but I assure you, any farmer who cares for their herd will treat those that need to be treated, with antibiotics if that's what's needed.

The reason confinement operation (CFO) beef is bad for you is because those animals eat a crap ton of corn, which they aren't designed to digest. This puts them in a constant state of ruminal acidosis (ie chronic heartburn) which makes the animal sick. Sick animals aren't good to eat. Corn also has 0 nutrients so all the good Omega-3s these guys have been building up out on pasture in the cow-calf operation gets depleted and replaced by oxidized omega-6, of which too much is very bad for you.

GLC1968

08-14-2012, 07:33 AM

The reason confinement operation (CFO) beef is bad for you is because those animals eat a crap ton of corn, which they aren't designed to digest.

This is true of course, but I'm also disgusted at the idea of eating meat from animals that live in rivers of their own refuse. That just cannot be healthy no matter what they are fed. Have you seen some of the feed-lot conditions? Ick! :( And animals raised on pasture generally have less of a need for antibiotics because they get sick less both because they aren't fed corn and because they aren't kept in such ridiculously close and unnatural confinement (same for chickens, actually).

I'll take happy animals raised on grass/pasture and fed a varied diet (in the case of pigs) any day!

Catrin

08-14-2012, 07:39 AM

...

I'll take happy animals raised on grass/pasture and fed a varied diet (in the case of pigs) any day!

THIS :)

There is a weekly farmers market in front of my office building and I found a vendor last week who was new to me. They sell grass-fed beef, pasture-raised chicken and turkey AND grow all of the food they feed their animals when at all possible. Some of their cows do get a small amount of corn and they keep that meat separate. Prices appear reasonable ($5/lb for grass-fed ground beef compared with $8-9 that I've seen elsewhere,

Guess where a good amount of my meat is going to come from :cool: I did ask them what they've been feeding their cows during this drought and they had the right answer...hay!

BTW, I am amazed at the amount of energy that I now have after 6 days of no grains...

Owlie

08-14-2012, 04:56 PM

Interesting. For me, if I get a high calorie breakfast with plenty of fat and protein, I'm good to go almost until dinner with a snack in the afternoon. (My parents, who seem to have this oatmeal fixation, think I'm crazy. I can't eat oatmeal at all. I'm hungry again in an hour.) I wonder if the benefits are less from eliminating grains/legumes (unless you've got hidden gluten sensitivity, etc) and more from a shift in where you get your calories from a rapidly-burned source to one that takes longer to use.

Dogmama

08-14-2012, 06:40 PM

Owlie

08-14-2012, 08:37 PM

What is your typical breakfast?

Normally it's a whole-grain cereal with pecans and 1% milk, with tea with sugar half-and-half; or a whole-milk latte from Starbucks, depending on what mood I'm in and how well I slept the night before. :D Other times it's Greek yogurt with granola, a generous drizzle of honey, almonds and either pomegranate seeds or strawberries.

However, the one that do best for me generally consist of a 2-egg omelet with whatever I can find that would taste good in it (salsa, sour cream and cilantro is good); or 2 saucer-sized pancakes with fruit and 3-4 strips of bacon. Or a fried egg and 2-3 strips of bacon, a slice of whole grain toast and fruit. Tea or coffee with all of these, of course.
I don't get these breakfasts very often, though. That would require more work than I generally care to do first thing in the morning. :D
The cereal, especially if I supplement it with extra nuts, works pretty well for me if I'm not riding. If I am riding more than 20-25 miles, I try to add at least some extra protein and fat to the mix.

This reminds me. Must buy more bacon.

Becky

08-15-2012, 05:43 AM

It's been ~2 weeks since DH and I embarked on our paleo experiment, and I've entered that "craving bad-for-me food, gonna kill someone" phase. We've been eating a lot of fantastic, creative, delicious stuff (thank you, Melissa Joulwan!), but dangit, I want ice cream and a peanut butter sandwich RIGHT. NOW.

Someone please tell me that it gets better.

tulip

08-15-2012, 06:45 AM

Becky, it gets better. This is where discipline comes in. I was miserable for the first two weeks, and then I started feeling great and very energetic. I was/am not doing strict paleo, but I work hard to eliminate refined sugar and most grains. I think the sugar cravings are the worst, and it sounds like that's where you are. I craved angel food cake. I think you can at least partially address those cravings with some foods that are higher in fat, since they tend to be satisfying. Avocados work wonders for me when I feel the need for a treat.

I should add that I used to bake my own bread, and I really loved that whole process. I miss it, too, but I feel alot better without it and I've lost some weight (about 9 lbs since March).

When I crave pasta, I make up a big plate of spaghetti squash with tomato sauce and cheese and basil, and that satisfies quiet well.

Catrin

08-15-2012, 07:04 AM

I've dropped all grains from my diet, I knew that something less wouldn't work for me since I love bread so much. It's only been a week but my energy levels are already much higher/more stable than they were. So grain, no processed food (outside of Trader Joe's uncured bacon), and my dairy consumption has gone way down.

I haven't really been craving sugar yet...however in a weak moment I had some ice cream Monday which turned out badly. While I know that the assumption is one doesn't have to be 100% Paleo 100% of the time, but obviously I can't be trusted with ice cream right now. The ice cream monster took over...though to be honest I probably ate less than a cup so I shouldn't beat myself up. The rest of it went to the dumpster.

Becky

08-15-2012, 07:24 AM

Tulip, thanks for the reassurance. I felt great initially, and I need to remember that feeling and that this is temporary. It's been very drizzly and gray here, and I have no doubt that the weather is a contributing factor.

I managed to walk past the donuts this morning and have a cup of tea and some almonds instead. Every good choice that I make is one less bad choice that I could have made. (Self, listen up!)

tulip

08-15-2012, 08:15 AM

Becky, I found that once refined sugar was off-limits, it was pretty easy to not eat a whole bunch of formerly-tempting foods. Sugar is in so much food, and most of it does not contribute to my health and well-being. The doing away with grains pretty much eliminated everything else that was tempting.

The lost weight and increased energy has been great, and well worth the effort. You might want to set an initial time period so that you have a goal to reach. I started out with 30 days of no sugar and no grains, and it was hard the first two weeks, but having that goal was very helpful. It's something I will likely do again when I notice that I'm getting a bit lazy around the edges and letting things creep back in.

Catrin, I also had an ice-cream incident about a month ago. It just doesn't agree with me anymore and I have not been tempted to go back to it since. Renting ice cream just isn't that much of a draw, if you know what I mean.

I haven't read any paleo books, and I'm certainly not going to start eating platefuls of bacon. But I will once-in-a-while have a bit of bacon, and I do enjoy my chicken and the occasional steak. My breakfasts are usually smoothies with fruit and yogurt. My lunches are usually turkey and veggies (sometimes in a low-carb wrap, which is fine by me) or a big salad with avocado and salmon or chicken. My dinners tend to be some variation of chicken, sweet potato, and veggies (like greens, broccoli, or green beans--legumes are not off my list). Avocados go with everything!

I like hummus with carrots for a snack. And I do drink tea and coffee with milk or cream. No cereal or oatmeal, though. Just as well since I never liked oatmeal and was choking it down because it was "good for me." So glad that's over!

I really don't have a problem with eating out, as I just choose things that are appropriate. Salads with meats are good, as are fish and chicken, and I get a salad instead of rice or potatoes. Skip the bread, that's easy. I don't feel comfortable asking people who invite me into their homes to make any special changes for me, however. If they serve lasagne or pasta, I'll happily eat it because they went to the trouble and are offering to share their bounty with me. It won't kill me and I can get back to my way of eating easily enough. But that's just me; other people have no trouble asking hosts to make accommodations.

GLC1968

08-15-2012, 09:00 AM

Becky - like the others have said, it totally gets better. Just stick it out and do NOT try to kill a sugar craving with a high sugar fruit as a substitute. That will only prolong the agony! Your best bet is to squash it with something super filling and preferably full of healthy fat. Avocados are a great idea!

Tulip - it sounds like you've captured the best parts of the paleo diet without going crazy about it. Good for you!

Just to clarify, I joke a lot about bacon but really, I don't eat it all that much. I've got a few recipes that use it for flavor but it's not a major component and when we do cook bacon to have with breakfast, I usually have only a piece or maybe two. I haven't had any at all since last Friday, so it's not a daily thing for me at all. I will say that bacon is MORE delicious now than it used to be precisely because when I do eat it, it's guilt-free and feels like a total indulgence.

For me, the biggest deterrent to eating things like wheat, oats, sugar and the like is my inability to STOP eating them. I don't know what those things do to me, but I lose my sense of satiety almost instantly so I almost always over eat even if I am actively listening to my body. And then I find myself craving the same things for days on end once the 'episode' is over. It's not worth it.

That said, if I really want ice cream or chocolate, I'll allow myself some immediately after a meal. This will satisfy the urge without creating a nasty cycle of cravings. I think the meal food already in my stomach keeps the typical sugar reaction from occurring. In addition, because I've already eaten, the danger of over-eating the treat food is a lot less.

I will NEVER eat crap when I am hungry. I've learned how badly I react to that and it's a huge mistake for me. If I'm hungry, I eat something healthy first, even if it's just a handful of carrots or a piece of cold chicken.

Becky

08-15-2012, 09:37 AM

Becky - like the others have said, it totally gets better. Just stick it out and do NOT try to kill a sugar craving with a high sugar fruit as a substitute. That will only prolong the agony!

This is good to know. The banana with breakfast hasn't done much to alleviate the "want to kill people" or the "hit by a bus" feelings.

Interestingly enough, DH is feeling the same way today. I'm surprised that we've entered this stage at exactly the same time. I at least expected a difference of a day or two.

Crankin

08-15-2012, 09:42 AM

I eat pretty much like Tulip, but in the past 2 months, I've let more things like Ezekial bread, whole wheat bagels, and the occasional waffle back in, as well as frozen yogurt/soft serve ice cream. All was fine until I came back from vacation, where I didn't restrict myself at all. I initially lost all of the weight (3lbs.) gained there, but it's been up a pound or two since then. Not critical, and where I was at may be too low for me, anyway. The thing is, I haven't noticed any difference in the way I feel when eating less grains. I've never been a junk food or sugar eater since I've been about 25, when I initially lost 25 pounds I gained in the years after graduating college. I hear all of you saying how great you feel, but I haven't felt any sudden burst of energy. I'm not tired, either.
I do eat 2 squares of dark chocolate a night after dinner and that seems to stop any dessert cravings. I've been doing this for years. I cut down on meat in April/May and that coincided with my weight going really low. I didn't stop eating fish or chicken, though. I've added beef and pork back in, but I don't eat that much of it. I've never been a dairy person, I hate milk, and have cut way down on my cheese consumption.
Overall, a "low glycemic" approach seems to work well for me. I enjoy the Paleo recipes I have from the one cookbook I bought, but I know when 3 PM comes and I am craving a slice of Ezekial bread and hummus, no matter how many carrots I eat, I won't be satisfied until I have the bread. I find it fairly easy to eat this way in restaurants, as long as I stay away from Italian and Asian, which I do.

Catrin

08-20-2012, 09:29 AM

I've decided after my week long experiment going Paleo to try a full 30 day experiment. We shall see, but I was encouraged by differences I saw in just that time period especially where energy levels were concerned.

As far as dark chocolate and red wine (which I don't drink anyway), I like Mark Butler's approach (Mark's Daily Apple and The Primal Blueprint) that these are things that can be enjoyed in moderation. No reason to give up good quality >75% dark chocolate. So I will report back on September 20 to say whether it will change from experiment status or just become part of my lifestyle. My personal crack is good quality ice cream, and that really isn't good for someone who is insulin resistant anyway...

GLC1968

08-20-2012, 02:37 PM

I think it's Mark Sisson, isn't it?

Yeah, I kept dark chocolate in my world but found that eventually (it took awhile) even the 75%+ dark stuff would trigger sugar or sweets cravings. Now I find it easier to stick to the plan if I don't eat it, but I still have it occasionally.

Wine doesn't bother me digestively, but it does mess with my sleep patterns so I keep it as a very occasional indulgence as well.

Your experiences/reactions could be completely different from mine.

It's amazing how much one can learn about how their body reacts to certain foods from simple elimination and controlled reintroduction! I feel like a walking science experiment! :p

Catrin

08-20-2012, 03:01 PM

It will be interesting to see how this goes, and I actually rarely eat chocolate. I do like the occasional craft beer and I will have to see if that causes cravings. I find I don't miss bread at all - which is a total surprise! At least not yet...

westtexas

08-20-2012, 03:10 PM

Catrin, I'm glad it's going well for you. My current fixation within the Paleosphere is bone broth. I cook some meat in coconut oil or ghee, add it to a simmering pot of bone broth I've already prepared, and then sautee my veggies of choice in the meat drippings/remaining oil. Stick all that on top of some raw baby spinach or kale in a big bowl and pour the broth and meat on top. Yum.

The guy at Whole Foods is always giving me the weirdest look because I'm always buying center cut marrow bones. Once he asked if I had a dog, and I went all veterinarian on him and told him why dogs shouldn't have bones. When I told him it was for bone broth, which is super nutrient rich (especially minerals!), he wigged out.

I eat "weird" food and I love it. I love how it makes me feel, and I'm glad you are finding it works for you too.

Catrin

08-20-2012, 03:20 PM

I tried coconut oil this evening for the first time, and I really like it! The jar at Trader Joe's wasn't cheap, but it took so little that I can see it will last for some time.

Bone broth sounds interesting...once I get used to eating beef again. Outside of the grass-fed ground beef I had last week, I've not eaten beef in years. Looking for a grass-fed source that won't break the bank. I succeeded with pasture-raised chicken and ground beef, will likely get some other beef from the same farmer. I just froze the organs/neck from the chicken until I am brave enough/figure out what to do with them.

GLC1968

08-20-2012, 03:58 PM

Catrin

08-20-2012, 04:59 PM

Oooh, I found a new Paleo food tracking website (http://paleotrack.com/). It breaks everything down to the nutrient/mineral/etc level. So if you really want to see where the Omega-6 is coming from you can. They are working on a mobile version, and it is apparent it's not be around that long but does allow the addition of new foods/recipes, etc. I am going to give it a shot for awhile.

westtexas

08-20-2012, 06:14 PM

Bone broth is good for the dogs too though, right??

I sometimes pour a little bone broth on their food and they gobble it up. I figure it's good for the dog with the bad hips. ;) When I made my broth, I gave all the leftover veggies to the dogs and boy, did they go crazy for it!

I bet it is!! I have been recommending that my clients with dogs with gastrointestinal upset or other illnesses feed them bone broth by syringe when they won't eat. I swear it's what saved my little rescue greyhound from distemper last year.

Catrin - you can use chicken bones just as well as beef/bison bones. I roast whole chickens and chicken thighs in the oven and save the carcass bones and thigh bones in the freezer. When I have a good amount I boil them for about an hour. They don't take as long as the long bones of the ruminants.

tulip

08-20-2012, 07:03 PM

Westtexas, why are bones bad for dogs? What about feeding raw diets?

Okay thread hijack. If you are so inclined would you send be a brief pm? I do feed my dog bones (uncooked) occasionally.

Owlie

08-20-2012, 07:11 PM

I bet it is!! I have been recommending that my clients with dogs with gastrointestinal upset or other illnesses feed them bone broth by syringe when they won't eat. I swear it's what saved my little rescue greyhound from distemper last year.

Catrin - you can use chicken bones just as well as beef/bison bones. I roast whole chickens and chicken thighs in the oven and save the carcass bones and thigh bones in the freezer. When I have a good amount I boil them for about an hour. They don't take as long as the long bones of the ruminants.

I do that with chicken sometimes too, if I've roasted one. Carcass+wings (because I don't eat them), put in a stock pot, cover with water, boil.

ETA: Excellent in winter for warming the place up. ;)

PamNY

08-20-2012, 09:36 PM

Once he asked if I had a dog, and I went all veterinarian on him and told him why dogs shouldn't have bones.

Dogs shouldn't have bones?

I'm sure I'm missing something -- but paleo sounds like BARF for humans.

Susan

08-20-2012, 11:55 PM

My current fixation within the Paleosphere is bone broth. I cook some meat in coconut oil or ghee, add it to a simmering pot of bone broth I've already prepared, and then sautee my veggies of choice in the meat drippings/remaining oil. Stick all that on top of some raw baby spinach or kale in a big bowl and pour the broth and meat on top. Yum.

The guy at Whole Foods is always giving me the weirdest look because I'm always buying center cut marrow bones. Once he asked if I had a dog, and I went all veterinarian on him and told him why dogs shouldn't have bones. When I told him it was for bone broth, which is super nutrient rich (especially minerals!), he wigged out.

I eat "weird" food and I love it. I love how it makes me feel, and I'm glad you are finding it works for you too.

Gladly it's not weird to use marrow bones here, you can buy them precut. You can eat the (hot!) cooked marrow with a little salt or use it as spread (ok, eating Paleo you won't do that ;)) - it's very satiating.
I try to have some bone broth ready as often as possible too. If you whisk 2 eggs in hot broth it makes a very good small meal.

GLC1968

08-21-2012, 07:37 AM

If you whisk 2 eggs in hot broth it makes a very good small meal.

Oooh, that sounds like a great idea for a quick snack for my husband (who works from home all day and wants to eat when he gets bored)! Thanks for sharing that, I bet he'd love it!

westtexas

08-21-2012, 06:45 PM

Since a couple of y'all asked about the bones thing -

Bones are generally not recommended for dogs because of 1) obstruction and 2) injury. Chicken bones in particular like to splinter and get lodged in funny places like mouths, esophaguses, stomachs and intestines. Although stomach acid theoretically can break down a bone into it's components, too much trouble happens along the way. Large marrow bones like the kind I'm using from buffalo femurs to make broth are very very very hard. These kinds of things break teeth. Also, have you ever met the dog who swallowed rocks or tennis balls? These guys chomp down and swallow all kinds of things that seem like they shouldn't "fit" or go down, but they totally do. Bones just smack of impaction.

Either way, if you break a tooth or get a bone lodged somewhere it shouldn't, you're looking at a lot of money that could be spent elsewhere by simply not giving bones. At my practice, to pull a carnassial tooth (the big molar on top and bottom, commonly fractured from chewing on hard substances) is around $250. This doesn't include the medicine, the anesthesia or the dental cleaning before/after hand. An exploratory laparotomy is going to be about $800, for resection and anastomosis (meaning I have to remove intestinal pieces and put your pet's guts back together in one piece) $1200, minimum.

It's not that bones are "bad". They generally just cause more trouble than they are worth. And in a profession where people consider euthanasia due to financial burdens, us vets strongly recommend prevention when possible.

As far as Paleo being BARF for people - Paleo isn't raw. I'm cooking all my meats (except sushi) and these bones are stewed for 24 hours (they're still hard as a rock, just slightly more porous now from the vinegar I add to the broth). I think raw feeding is actually fine for dogs, if you can get the vitamins/minerals right AND the food safety. Too me, in this crappy food system, nothing is safe and everything should be cooked. That's why foods like EVO (evopet.com - I'm biased, I used to work for the company) exist. It's raw food that isn't raw and it's safe to feed your pet.

:D

Catrin

09-01-2012, 07:14 AM

Tried something quite yummy as a replacement for ice cream

Frozen blueberries
pour a small amount of coconut cream over them
Mix with spoon, the coconut cream gets thick after contact with frozen berries.

Eat.

YUMMY!

I used only a quarter cup of berries and 3 tablespoons of coconut cream - VERY high in calories. I don't think I would use anything other than small berries for this.

Blueberry

09-01-2012, 07:17 AM

Apparently you can whip coconut cream too - bet that would be nice with the berries.

Tri Girl

09-01-2012, 07:22 AM

Apparently you can whip coconut cream too - bet that would be nice with the berries.

coconut milk (after sitting in the fridge overnight) makes a FAB whipped cream!
I love to put that on berries for a sweet treat!!

Blueberry

09-01-2012, 07:29 AM

coconut milk (after sitting in the fridge overnight) makes a FAB whipped cream!
I love to put that on berries for a sweet treat!!

Isn't coconut cream just the "solid" part of the regular (not lite) coconut milk after it's chilled? Or do you use the clear stuff too?

Owlie

09-01-2012, 07:31 AM

Where do you find this stuff? Is it terribly expensive? I've got a tea or two that it might be tasty in.

Catrin

09-01-2012, 07:36 AM

Coconut Cream is canned, and is a combination of coconut milk and meat. Trader Joe's sells a can for just a bit over $1. It is richer/thicker than coconut milk and it is just awesome in coffee, useful for cooking/etc. It is quite high in calories, so it is good to be aware of how it fits into your overall caloric goals. Coconut oil is very stable at high temps and great for cooking as well

If I thought I had the hand strength to pry my way into a coconut I would :) One of these days I will try it, but I don't have a cleaver!

Owlie

09-01-2012, 08:50 AM

Amazingly, I can find coconut oil at Kroger. I might get some if I choose to venture further into Goan cooking, since coconut is a huge component. I can't get too used to keeping coconut products around, though. DBF hates coconut in most forms. The only one he'll willingly eat it in is this soup (http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/turkey-vatapa-10000000397301/), which isn't terribly paleo because it uses beer as the base, but it's so good.

We do have a Trader Joe's that isn't all that far away from the bike shop. I might have to go look. And pick up some of that toffee, if they still make it. ;)

Tri Girl

09-01-2012, 03:13 PM

Isn't coconut cream just the "solid" part of the regular (not lite) coconut milk after it's chilled? Or do you use the clear stuff too?

I don't know. I just put the whole can in the fridge and use it all when making the whipped cream. The kind I've bought (Thai Kitchen) doesn't separate- it's all solid (no clear stuff). I don't get the lite version.

Catrin

09-02-2012, 09:31 AM

I think it is only the "light" canned coconut milk that separates. I use the full fat version as well and so far it's not separated. I really would like to find some coconut flour locally, but it looks like I will need to get it from the internet. It isn't expensive and looks like it would be useful to have.

My first batch of chicken bone broth is still happily cooking away, it will be interesting! The farmer I get my pasture/grass-fed items from has a sale on soup bones this week so he is going to bring me some on Wednesday. I am asking him about short ribs, that isn't something that are very popular so I suspect the price will be lower.

Yes, eating Paleo/Primal can become quite expensive - but I am finding ways to bring down the cost. From the way I feel eating this way, it is worth it - and really my costs have not been way out of line.

I picked up some Belgian Endive this week for the first time, found a recipe that calls for grilling it, we will see how it goes ;)

Blueberry

09-02-2012, 09:43 AM

The whole foods brand regular (not lite) coconut milk separates.

Catrin

09-02-2012, 10:45 AM

The whole foods brand regular (not lite) coconut milk separates.

Actually I misspoke. I was thinking of my canned coconut CREAM. Sadly Trader Joe's doesn't sell the full fat coconut milk and I forgot to look when I was at Whole Foods (for the first time) today. I will be back :)

Blueberry

09-02-2012, 11:15 AM

Actually I misspoke. I was thinking of my canned coconut CREAM. Sadly Trader Joe's doesn't sell the full fat coconut milk and I forgot to look when I was at Whole Foods (for the first time) today. I will be back :)

They hide it on the bottom shelf, usually (their brand). The Thai Kitchen stuff is more expensive, and usually front and center. I love WF, but I find I have to search for their store brands. Their store brands are usually amazing (other than TJ's, I've never said that about a store), and are usually less expensive than organic products elsewhere. We actually do 80% of our shopping at WF, and have a very reasonable budget (the remainder is TJ's, Costco, and the very occasional regular store product).

Catrin

09-02-2012, 11:28 AM

I was pleasantly surprised. My farmer beats them on meat prices, and they are competitive with Trader Joe's regarding organic goods - they seem to be within .25 of each other, at least on the things I checked. Prices on free range organic eggs were, however, much cheaper at WF. As many of those things I eat it is well worth the drive just for that!

I found the organic vegetable prices to be higher at WF but they do have a better selection. I can see starting at Trader Joe's and head to WF for what TJ doesn't carry.

Chile Pepper

09-02-2012, 01:07 PM

Isn't coconut cream just the "solid" part of the regular (not lite) coconut milk after it's chilled?

In Thai cooking, the top, thick layer of coconut milk is called cream, but that is different from cans of coconut cream. Coconut cream (in a can) is very, very sweet, like sweetened condensed milk, and is mostly used for cocktails and desserts. Coconut milk is unsweetened, and that is what is used for cooking (curries and such).

Catrin

09-02-2012, 02:19 PM

Irulan

09-02-2012, 02:40 PM

In Thai cooking, the top, thick layer of coconut milk is called cream, but that is different from cans of coconut cream. Coconut cream (in a can) is very, very sweet, like sweetened condensed milk, and is mostly used for cocktails and desserts. Coconut milk is unsweetened, and that is what is used for cooking (curries and such).

I've purchased "coconut cream" instead of coconut milk at the Asian Market, by mistake when I thought I was buying coconut milk. I've found it to be the same as what's on top of the coconut milk and nothing more; not a sweetened product. So maybe there's different kinds of coconut cream?

Here's a tip. If you buy canned coconut milk at an Asian market, it cost lots less. I pay $1.19 for a 19 oz. can of Mae Ploy brand. I think the quality of the brands is better, too. In fact all Asian specialty items are less,(and better) and sometimes lots less, at Asian markets than other places. Recently I purchased a 6.5 oz jar of black peppercorns for $2. Take that, Spice Islands,

indysteel

09-02-2012, 03:17 PM

Coconut cream is coconut milk but with less added milk. Cream of coconut is sweetened with cane sugar. It's used mostly for cocktails like piña coloda.

Owlie

09-02-2012, 04:16 PM

I actually almost always buy the full-fat coconut milk--it tastes better and for the soup I posted previously, it gives a much better mouthfeel. Whole Paycheck has it in the 365 brand, so you can save a few cents. It's hit or miss in the other grocery stores around here, though.

And now I really want a pina colada.

Catrin

09-03-2012, 04:24 AM

Coconut cream is coconut milk but with less added milk. Cream of coconut is sweetened with cane sugar. It's used mostly for cocktails like piña coloda.

Thanks Indy, I knew there is a more sweetened version but wasn't sure what it was called. I really like coconut cream for curries, and even for splashing into skillet with sauteed kale and spinach just before they are ready. Adds a bit of healthy fat and I love the flavor. Have to measure it though to stay in calorie targets :)

Crankin

09-03-2012, 04:44 AM

indysteel

09-03-2012, 04:47 AM

Thanks Indy, I knew there is a more sweetened version but wasn't sure what it was called. I really like coconut cream for curries, and even for splashing into skillet with sauteed kale and spinach just before they are ready. Adds a bit of healthy fat and I love the flavor. Have to measure it though to stay in calorie targets :)

One of my favorite chicken dishes uses coconut milk/cream (the brand of milk I use is thicker than some). Cut boneless chicken breasts into one inch cubes. Mix together 3/4 cup of the milk with a tablespoon or two of red curry paste and a little kosher salt. Coat the chicken with the marinade and let sit in the fridge for a couple if hours. Skewer them and then grill or broil.

I'm not sure if red curry paste is paleo friendly, but I recommend the dish.

ccnyc

09-03-2012, 05:13 AM

While I was buying olive oil for cooking (as opposed to the Spanish stuff I buy on line for dressings, etc), I happened to look down and see coconut oil. It sure looked like coconut milk to me, but there it was, right in the regular grocery store.

Below 76 degrees coconut oil solidifies and becomes opaque, usually a whitish color.

When I first started using coconut oil the oil I bought was totally liquid, so I transferred it to a bottle with a pouring spout. The temperature in my kitchen dropped and I couldn't get the coconut oil out of the bottle!

Catrin

09-03-2012, 05:24 AM

Below 76 degrees coconut oil solidifies and becomes opaque, usually a whitish color.

When I first started using coconut oil the oil I bought was totally liquid, so I transferred it to a bottle with a pouring spout. The temperature in my kitchen dropped and I couldn't get the coconut oil out of the bottle!

I almost did that, but read about its qualities before I made that final step. Coconut oil is very stable at high temperatures - which means there are no unsavory chemical changes that happens with high temp cooking with some oils (like Canola). The fat is quite good for us - and apparently there aren't many sources for that particular type of fat.

I also want to try avocado and walnut oils - which is more expensive. Would love to find macadamia nut oil but I imagine it would be even more expensive than avocado and walnut.

Crankin

09-03-2012, 09:19 AM

No wonder it looked almost solid. It is absolutely freezing in my grocery store. I always bring a sweatshirt with me.

Dogmama

09-03-2012, 03:53 PM

No wonder it looked almost solid. It is absolutely freezing in my grocery store. I always bring a sweatshirt with me.

And it's liquid in my house (air conditioning broken, running on swamp cooling until Wednesday :()

Catrin

09-03-2012, 04:22 PM

And it's liquid in my house (air conditioning broken, running on swamp cooling until Wednesday :()

For me it depends where in the kitchen it is :) My AC is sticking pretty close to 80 this summer - really saves on the bills. It HAS been interesting to see where in my kitchen it stays a solid and where it becomes liquid, never realized the air temp in my kitchen changes that much. It is a SMALL kitchen!

Dogmama

09-04-2012, 02:47 AM

I almost did that, but read about its qualities before I made that final step. Coconut oil is very stable at high temperatures - which means there are no unsavory chemical changes that happens with high temp cooking with some oils (like Canola). The fat is quite good for us - and apparently there aren't many sources for that particular type of fat.

I looked at the side of my coconut oil jar and it says medium temperatures only. Mine is organic. Does it depend on what kind of coconut oil?

Catrin

09-04-2012, 02:52 AM

I looked at the side of my coconut oil jar and it says medium temperatures only. Mine is organic. Does it depend on what kind of coconut oil?

To the best of my knowledge it doesn't, unsure why it says that. My reading says that it is suitable for high temperature cooking and my jar of organic virgin coconut oil says nothing about a temperature limitation. It certainly doesn't smoke at high temps like other oils have that I've used - but then again my cookware is lower-temp stainless steel so I don't use it at REALLY temps.

indysteel

09-04-2012, 03:18 AM

As with olive oil, the smoke point of coconut oil depends on how refined it is. Refined coconut oil has a smoke point of 450 degrees, at least according to one source, while extra virgin (unrefined) has a smoke point of 350 degrees.

Dogmama

09-04-2012, 04:16 AM

Mine is Spectrum, organic, unrefined. On the side of the jar it says medium heat up to 280 degrees.

Catrin

09-04-2012, 04:27 AM

Mine is Spectrum, organic, unrefined. On the side of the jar it says medium heat up to 280 degrees.

That just seems incorrect and flies in the face of all of the information I've read on coconut oil - and I've read a lot (which is my way when trying out new things - Catrin = Queen of Over Thinking). My jars of organic virgin coconut oil gives no temperature range, as I previously mentioned.

indysteel

09-04-2012, 05:10 AM

That just seems incorrect and flies in the face of all of the information I've read on coconut oil - and I've read a lot (which is my way when trying out new things - Catrin = Queen of Over Thinking). My jars of organic virgin coconut oil gives no temperature range, as I previously mentioned.

The fact that your jar of it doesn't list a temperatue doesn't mean much in my opinion, as every oil has a smoke point. However, the temp listed on Dogmama is admittedly lower than the 350 degrees that I've routinely seen listed for unrefined/virgin/extra virgin coconut oil. That's the same smoke point as butter for a frame of reference, and it's lower than some oils, including most olive oils and canola oil. Again, the more unrefined an oil is, the lower the smoke point.

Catrin

09-04-2012, 05:19 AM

The fact that your jar of it doesn't list a temperatue doesn't mean much in my opinion, as every oil has a smoke point. However, the temp listed on Dogmama is admittedly lower than the 350 degrees that I've routinely seen listed for unrefined/virgin/extra virgin coconut oil. That's the same smoke point as butter for a frame of reference, and it's lower than some oils, including most olive oils and canola oil. Again, the more unrefined an oil is, the lower the smoke point.

I was referring to the research/reading I've done on the nature of coconut oil and other oils, not what was on my jar :) Sorry about any confusion.

indysteel

09-04-2012, 05:33 AM

I was referring to the research/reading I've done on the nature of coconut oil and other oils, not what was on my jar :) Sorry about any confusion.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what's contradictory in your research from what Dogmama shared. I, too, have read that coconut oil doesn't break down at high heat but that doesn't mean that it doesn't still have a smoke point. Even if it doesn't break down per se, it's flavor will arguably change as it gets past its smoke point. I, personally, would not use coconut oil for certain applications. For instance, I likely wouldn't use it to sear meat.

Catrin

09-04-2012, 05:45 AM

I think perhaps we were talking about different things which led to a disconnect on my end. So, in the words Rosanna Dana... "never mind" :)

indysteel

09-04-2012, 05:53 AM

I think perhaps we were talking about different things which led to a disconnect on my end. So, in the words Rosanna Dana... "never mind" :)

Okie doke. Sorry if I chimed in unnecessarily.

westtexas

09-04-2012, 05:50 PM

From Mark's Daily Apple

"Expeller Pressed Refined Coconut Oil - There’s that word: “refined.” Not so bad when you’re talking 16-year single barrel Scotch, monocles, The New Yorker, and finely oiled mustaches, but extremely suspicious when you’re talking edible fats. Most refined oils are processed using chemical solvents like hexane, some of which may show up in the finished product. Expeller pressed coconut oil, however, is physically processed. They literally press the coconut flesh to squeeze out the oil.

Refined coconut oil doesn’t taste like coconut, thanks to the deodorizing steam-treatment it receives. If you want that coconut flavor, go for virgin coconut oil. But if you’re doing a stir-fry, cooking up some eggs, maybe oven baking some sweet potato fries, and you don’t want everything to taste like Thai food, expeller-pressed coconut oil is a fantastic choice. It’s more resistant to high heat than virgin coconut oil, too, making it the go-to fat for those times you want to cook something on high.

The other benefits of coconut oil, like the medium chain triglyceride content, are not affected by the refining process. They remain intact and present.

Read more: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-it-primal-paleo-bread-braggs-liquid-aminos-psyllium-fiber-and-other-foods-scrutinized/#ixzz25YWsOcZg"

I've always used unrefined virgin coconut oil, but I will probably go with the expeller pressed kind next time because I seriously dislike the flavor of coconut oil.

Catrin

09-05-2012, 12:27 AM

Thanks Westtexas, THIS was what I was thinking of regarding coconut oil - I had forgotten that it was referencing refined, not virigin. I do like the mouth feel of the virgin - and my cookware is lower temp stainless steel anyway. I do want to try the refined when I restock my coconut oil supply.

Have you tried Walnut or Avocado oil for cooking?

On an unrelated note - my weight is now lower than it has been in 2 years :) I still have the same calorie targets but as I eat more good fats and keep my carbs low - my weight is slowly dropping. It is under 130 for the first time since I was over-doing things in 2010 - AND I am not having to kill myself to do it. I feel very good, my energy levels are fine. I've been told that it will go faster if I drop my carbs even lower, but right now I am happy with my rate of progress given my activity level. Getting enough sleep is still hard - and that is part of the process as well.

Sky King

09-05-2012, 08:00 AM

Just one note of caution on coconut oil, as with any food, make sure you aren't allergic to coconut (I happen to be allergic to coconut and to soy) if you aren't certain, a good naturopath will be able to help you

surgtech1956

03-01-2013, 06:39 AM

I've decided to try the Paleo Diet. I've been researching it some. I am a little concerned about the calcuim, but I'm thinking about modifying it a little if I have to. Any thoughts or advice? Thank you

OakLeaf

03-01-2013, 08:50 AM

Just a thought about minerals from someone who hasn't gone full paleo ... I sweat out a LOT of calcium and magnesium, and my need to supplement has gone WAY down since I reduced my grain intake and increased my % calories from vegetables. Come to think of it ... I'm less than 7 weeks out from a marathon, the weather has been pretty hot, I'm only supplementing 670 mg each calcium and magnesium daily plus maybe 150 -250 mg each from the electrolyte supplement I use on my weekly long run ... and I haven't woken up ONCE with leg cramps from lack of electrolytes. This has, like, never happened to me before!

Vegetables are alkaline forming - grains are mostly acid forming, many of them very much so. When you reduce grains you're not leaching near as much calcium and magnesium out of your bones to buffer your blood. Some people make a big deal about phytic acid in grains interfering with mineral absorption, but I don't think that's near as much a concern as the pH balance.

Plus, by getting a large amount of your calories from vegetables, you'll be getting a lot more dietary minerals (even if they tend to be in the form of less-available salts). If you're getting a lot of your calcium from enriched grain products now, that's basically no different from taking a pill supplement ...

I should note that I'm also eating way more meat than I have at almost any time in my life ... pretty much once a week regularly, sometimes twice a week - which meat consumption is also in line with paleo theory, although I really only crave it during heavy training - and although meat is obviously highly acid-forming, I'm still doing fine with less mineral supplementation than ever.

Catrin

03-01-2013, 11:46 AM

In order for the body to be able to take advantage of calcium, there are other minerals that are required by the body, and Oakleaf makes some excellent points where this is concerned. Research has shown that we (the collective US/west in general) consume the largest amount of calcium supplements yet we have the highest rates of osteoporosis than other parts of the world. It is ironic that other parts of the world where they consume far less amounts of dairy and supplements have much lower levels of osteoporsis, and there are many factors that impact this.

A brief discussion is found here on Mark's Daily Apple (http://www.marksdailyapple.com/calcium-for-women/#axzz2MK4IJYay), it was very helpful to me when I was worried about the same thing 7 months ago. I went from drinking 2 gallons of milk + yogurt + cheese every week to NONE at that time, and very recent blood tests show my calcium levels to actually be much better than what they were before... The long/short of it is dairy isn't the only place we get calcium from and once we remove those things that prevent us from absorbing what we do get - and ensure we are also getting those minerals that helps us to absorb it in the first place, it isn't near the problem that some think.