Negoiating Switchbacks

[Catrin]

Had a great mtb ride yesterday (even if I did have a small endo). It has become apparent that I need to address my little problem with switchbacks. I am so conditioned now to stopping for them that my body automatically stops :o I did, however, roll through a couple of them.

I am unsure right now if the problem is "simply" in my head or if I am doing something mechanically wrong like not looking far enough ahead, or going too slow/too fast but generally what happens is I wind up off the trail in sketchy stuff.

I love the trail we rode yesterday, but there are a couple of places where I have to stop. I intend on taking care of that. I seem to be fine with handling roots and rocks (at least on that trail), but the switchback and armored crossing in curves are a problem.

Any advice on how I can deal better with switchbacks? Part of me wonders if it is as simple as not having the right combination of speed and brakes to get around...

[Becky]

How are you handling them now? Lots of brake, no brake, steering through, leaning? Downhills or uphills? (Sorry for all the questions- trying to get a good picture of what's happening! :o )

Your statement that "what happens is I wind up off the trail in sketchy stuff" makes me wonder if you're trying to steer the front wheel through the switchback and understeering.

I'm sitting here trying to picture how I ride through one particular switchback... I *think* that I brake before entering the switchback (it's on a downhill), and then use a combination of steering and leaning to make the turn. That lean at the top of the switchback is tough, because you're actually leaning in the downslope direction, but you end up leaning upslope pretty quickly, almost like you're pivoting the bike around your body.

Now I have to go ride this section to pay attention to how I actually do this!

[Catrin]

How are you handling them now? Lots of brake, no brake, steering through, leaning? Downhills or uphills? (Sorry for all the questions- trying to get a good picture of what's happening! :o )

Your statement that "what happens is I wind up off the trail in sketchy stuff" makes me wonder if you're trying to steer the front wheel through the switchback and understeering.

All good questions. The trail in question is a 2-way out and back so I ride the switchbacks both directions. While there are a couple I walk both ways, there are one or two that I can ride in the down hill direction - and that includes two armored crossings that are quite close to each other on a curve.

I THINK that I am probably trying to steer around the curve - I can't remember what I do with the brakes. My instructor at this year's clinic advised us to point our belly button in the direction we want to go - but it is a bit difficult to do that on a switchback...

Generally I wind up in the brush on the inside of the curve or I try to ride up and over the berm (if there is one)...where there is typically a dropoff :eek: So stopping has become my preferred way of dealing with this - which is fine unless I am riding with others and also means I never improve.

This next week I've 5 days to camp/ride in this same park and I am going to practice a lot on this trail. I also have practice cones to play with in a grassy field...

[Becky]

Huh....I assumed that you were riding off the trail to the outside, not the inside. (That's what I get for assuming!) If you're riding off the inside, that would point towards oversteering....I think.

I definitely agree with the belly button thing. It allow you to use your hips and core to assist in control of the bike. I still wonder if there's a leaning issue here...too much or not enough...

This is one of the situations where actually seeing what's happening is worth a thousand words.... What do your riding buddies say about this situation?

[Irulan]

get out of the saddle; stand up a bit and bring your cg back just a little. LOOK where you want to go - eyes, neck and shoulder follow. You should be looking at the outside of the exit of the corner as that's where you want to aim for. Feather your brakes if necessary.

copied from my mtb skills page:
http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/penny/biking/ridetips.asp

Look-look-look around the turn, and keep moving.
Look beyond the exit of the turn, down the trail
Remember to stay in the neutral position. Extend your legs(but don't lock them) and move your body back as needed.
Go slow if you need to really control the turn, "rachet" if you need to but don't coast
Your bike will turn tighter than you think it will!
Dartman added this tidbit about switchbacks: " As far as switchbacks are concerned I've found it helps to keep the bike as upright as possible. A tight slow speed turn is not one you want to lean into unless you have a berm to rail. To do this keep the outside arm straight at the elbow and bend the inside arm. This'll lean the bike out of the turn with your weight in balance on the inside. This also maximizes tire contact with the ground."
I found that after I had my brake levers adjusted in for a shorter reach, it improved my cornering especially on switchbacks. With a more comfortable reach, I have much more control with feathering and modulating my front brake. This has helped my cornering immensely: I use both front and back to control my turn.
Be sure you are out of the saddle, move your weight back if it's steep.

[SadieKate]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Bikeskills.com-How-to-Handle-Switchback-Turns/

Catrin - Just off the top of my head it seems that you report an awful lot of endos. In my decades of riding and observing both my own and others' crashes, most are to the side. I think I've gone over the bars one time in decades of riding, but countless times every other direction. My husband has gone over twice but one time was his own stupid fault (trying to do a nose wheelie without thinking it through :rolleyes: ).

Are you focusing on getting your butt back? If so, focus on getting it back more.

[Becky]

Irulan and SK, that's good stuff. Thanks for sharing! I'm looking forward to trying the technique that Dartman describes.

[Catrin]

http://www.instructables.com/id/Bikeskills.com-How-to-Handle-Switchback-Turns/

Catrin - Just off the top of my head it seems that you report an awful lot of endos. In my decades of riding and observing both my own and others' crashes, most are to the side. I think I've gone over the bars one time in decades of riding, but countless times every other direction. My husband has gone over twice but one time was his own stupid fault (trying to do a nose wheelie without thinking it through :rolleyes: ).

Are you focusing on getting your butt back? If so, focus on getting it back more.

I've not had a actual endo. Yesterday was the closest - but even that was more in a diagonal sideways direction. It was just silly, we had just entered the trail and had barely gotten started when I got distracted and apparently grabbed that front brake :o I would like to say that it was caused by erosion and the large amount of dust on the trail due to the drought but that had nothing to do with it.

Thanks for the tips and advice, it is getting embarrassing the trouble I have with switchbacks when I have far less difficulty negotiating roots and rocks...as long as they aren't in curves :o

The video is quite helpful and I will watch it a few more times this weekend before I leave Monday. I think that I might be trying to steer to the inside of the curve and using too much brake...perhaps. I've some practice cones and can do some tight turning grills in the grass.

[Irulan]

for me the two things that really made a difference were the front brake moduclation, and getting up and back

[indysteel]

Catrin, did you mention that one of your riding friends was going to ride with you a day or two of your vacation? If so, perhaps it would be helpful to session some of Limekiln's tight turns and switchbacks with her. Watch her navigate them going both north and south and then have her watch you as you work on them. Perhaps she'll be able to offer some feedback.

[Catrin]

Catrin, did you mention that one of your riding friends was going to ride with you a day or two of your vacation? If so, perhaps it would be helpful to session some of Limekiln's tight turns and switchbacks with her. Watch her navigate them going both north and south and then have her watch you as you work on them. Perhaps she'll be able to offer some feedback.

Sadly that fell through, she has to work instead. Darned job, they decided she needed to travel instead. I agree this would be great if any of my other riding friends are available - I am checking to see if someone else can make it.

It isn't all of the tight turns on Limekiln, just the significant switchbacks - and one direction more than another but that makes sense to me. I think it is going to hold me back until I can address this....and I suspect it is more mental at this point than anything. It is in my head now that those turns are a "problem" so therefore they are :o

[Artista]

Catrin, this may sound like a kooky question but are you turning your handle bars enough to get through a switchback? This question comes from my own personal experience. I was initially trying to get through tight turns on my mountain bike by leaning as much I do on my road bike. My handle bars were usually pointed almost straight ahead regardless of how tight the curve was. I started negotiating switchbacks better once I started turning my handle bars more.

Speaking of switchbacks, I had forgotten about focusing on where I wanted to end up rather than looking just ahead of my front wheel on switchbacks. Today I focused on the exit of a couple of tricky switchbacks and rode them faster and much more smoothly than I've ever been able to do in the past.

I'm anxious to use this focus trick on a switchback that stumped me on my last ride. I tried that switchback three times and kept stopping at the same spot. Now I know that I was looking at the apex of the curve where I was mostly likely to ride off the trail. Sure enough, my bike started heading off the trail every time I approached that spot. I'm pretty sure that I can ace that switchback next time by focusing on the exit of the curve rather than the apex.

[Catrin]

Artista - I think you may have hit on the problem! When I was finally able to get a good ride going last week I focused on several of those problem switchbacks - especially the ones that don't have a drop-off at the apex of the curve.

I remembered the advice here about focusing on the outside of the curve rather than the inside - and of course looking through the curve. It went much better, so that does seems to indicate I've either been under steering or trying to take the curve like I do on the road (hadn't thought about that).

I also figured out my problem with several armored crossings. I made myself ride them and found my problem hasn't been with the actual armored crossing, but the switchback right after them. This was good to finally figure out :) The switchbacks are much easier going downhill, so I can obviously ride them - I just need to keep working at it.

[Artista]

What's an armored crossing?

If you find that you've been leaning more than turning your handle bars, be careful about reminding yourself to suddenly turn those handle bars part way through a curve after you've already begun leaning. It's a near fool-proof way to get your bike to skid out sideways underneath you. Ask me how I know;)

[Catrin]

An armored crossing are stream crossings that have been "armored" with rocks to protect the stream bed and to keep out of the mud. I've always been leery of those, and on this trail in particular they are either in a curve or not far from a switchback.

Your description of skidding out on the curve that way makes me remember when I skidded in the dust a few weeks back when I tweaked my bad knee. I bet that is what happened...

[Loraura]

Switchbacks (in the uphill direction) - as taught to me at a BetterRide clinic:

1)Put your seat at climbing height (optimal power)
2)Get low low low (chest/chin to the handle bars) - this keeps your front end from wandering. You think you're low, you're not. LOWER!
3)Scoot up on the saddle (toward the nose) -- this keeps traction on the back wheel while your low upperbody keeps the front wheel tracking where you want it to go. It's not the most comfortable place in the world to be on a saddle, but it doesn't last long and makes a difference.
4)Start wide on the outside, aim to finish wide on the outside. Make the corner as straight as you can.
5)Look ahead. No, further ahead than that! Look at your exit from the switchback as you enter it, as soon as you can see it, and look down the trail beyond the exit as soon as you can see that.

To practice, find a slope with a tree on it. Place some cones or rocks to mark the outside of the trail, with the tree being the inside of the switchback. Start with the cones/rocks allowing for a nice easy wide apex. Keep moving them in and trying again until you have a nice, tight, steep switchback.

[Irulan]

Switchbacks (in the uphill direction) - as taught to me at a BetterRide clinic:

1)Put your seat at climbing height (optimal power)
2)Get low low low (chest/chin to the handle bars) - this keeps your front end from wandering. You think you're low, you're not. LOWER!
3)Scoot up on the saddle (toward the nose) -- this keeps traction on the back wheel while your low upperbody keeps the front wheel tracking where you want it to go. It's not the most comfortable place in the world to be on a saddle, but it doesn't last long and makes a difference.
4)Start wide on the outside, aim to finish wide on the outside. Make the corner as straight as you can.
5)Look ahead. No, further ahead than that! Look at your exit from the switchback as you enter it, as soon as you can see it, and look down the trail beyond the exit as soon as you can see that.

To practice, find a slope with a tree on it. Place some cones or rocks to mark the outside of the trail, with the tree being the inside of the switchback. Start with the cones/rocks allowing for a nice easy wide apex. Keep moving them in and trying again until you have a nice, tight, steep switchback.

I've heard good things about Gene's clinics however I do have to ask...
What if you've lowered your saddle for a descent... THEN what do you do? I think there is more than one way to skin this cat.

[Loraura]

what if you've lowered your saddle for a descent... THEN what do you do?

I have a Rock Shox hydrolic seat post. I hit the button =).

Without a dropper seat post, you'll have to make compromises. I can confirm that it IS easier with the seat at the optimal height for climbing. I also find that I don't really have to drop my seat for decents unless there are ledges of 2 feet or more. I can get my weight far enough back on the bike for smaller ledges and sustained grades without having to drop my seat from climbing height.

When I began riding, many people told me to get all the way behind my seat for every little thing going downhill. Gene taught me otherwise. It's really about weight balance/management. If you watch downhill racers and even XC racers, they only get behind the saddle, with the saddle level with their torso for the steepest of gnarly rocky decents. Being WAY behind the seat puts most people, in a position where their arms have no bend left. Bad idea to be at the "end of your rope" like that.

[Loraura]

Watch these ladies decend. They really only get behind the saddle for the large ledge.

http://youtu.be/lgpNJsA7E2k

Their saddles are at a climbing height.

[Irulan]

The xc racer gals might leave the saddles up, but I won't. I've seen way too many endos ,of people who just won't put the saddle down. I'm sure the racers train to ride like that,who wants the extra ounces of a gravity dropper?

For me, the saddle is just in the way on continuous descents. If I'm in rolling/mixed terrain I will keep it close to climbing height, but for any kind of long descent, down it goes. Our local riding is conducive to this: a big climb followed by a long descent, or long shuttled rides, of XC but down flowing terrain. This is also how I've been coached, and trained to coach. "Canadian style" focuses on a neutral position with the legs some what extended, much more of a standing type position that is taught in the states. You move your weight back and forth through the hips but never get way back. DH racing is a separate discussion. :-)

Gene is very well regarded, but there is no only one correct way to ride.

[Loraura]

I haven't tried it to be sure, but I'm fairly certain that if my hips are behind my saddle, my butt would hit my 29er tire before my torso would touch the saddle. The saddle bucking me forward by hitting my torso, because it was not lowered, would really surprize me if it happened, and I'm kind of a "strudy" type of gal, not a thin thing with long legs.

On a 26er, I would bet that might be different since the distance between the top of the wheel and the top of the saddle is greater on a 26er.

Sounds like a dropper seat post would be a nice treat for your riding style, Irulan.

I can also tell you that the dropper seat post works WONDERS on cornering. Drop the seat coming into the corner, lean the bike as far as needed (becuase the saddle doesn't hit my thigh anymore, in fact, many times my whole body is on the outside of the bike), straighten out and pop it back up to pedal onward.

It just takes a little practice to get the muscle memory down. Where you normally pop out of the saddle to stand, you simply put the saddle down first, THEN pop up. One extra little movement to learn. With repitition, it becomes second nature.

I do sometimes find it hard to drop the seat AND brake hard at the same time. It's a pretty tough reach for my small hands to brake while also getting my thumb over to the dropper button and compressing it.

[Irulan]

Pictures are worth 1000 words.

This is descending as we teach it. Maybe saying "hips back" is a little overkill. It's always about where your center of gravity is. The point is that the rider isn't behind the saddle, but centered, and that the front of the bike is still weighted. The rider is extended, not crouched behind the saddle, which we all agree is bad/ineffective form in most situations.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cJFQeTwxD9U/UAbWhnG6AEI/AAAAAAAAC14/G_ddauc8B1c/s576/IMG_2852.jpg

This is how we teach switchbacks. Legs extended, weight centered and over pedals but hips a little back, looking around the corner, feathering brakes and front end of the bike controlled.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DpBVPNBriig/UAbWhbQwHeI/AAAAAAAAC14/QaQR6Nr0CQE/s576/IMG_2793.jpg

Again, this is Canadian style, which a little different than what is taught most places in the states.

[Loraura]

I see what you mean.

It looks like in the first picture the rider has room to raise the saddle a good bit without it interfering with her body position. Maybe not though. Hard to tell from a picture. Whatever makes the rider feel comfortable and balanced is the right height, for sure!

For some examples for terrain I'm working with here in central Texas, we have a lot of short but steep downs and ups. I ride this without dropping my seat:

http://www.austinbike.com/mtb/walnutcreek/image09.jpg

http://www.austinbike.com/mtb/walnutcreek/image13.jpg

This is one I'll drop the seat for:
http://www.austinbike.com/mtb/bcgb/image29.jpg

[Irulan]

When you are in rolling terrain, it IS important to find a saddle position where you are comfortable for both ups and down, that's for sure.

First photo is my fave coach out of BC, Tracey B. who also coaches for Dirt Series. She's my hero, has coached me since 2001, and who I've apprenticed with. She is a level III NCCP ( Canadian certification) coach. One of the things we do is, with the exception of climbs, make the riders put their saddle down as part of the learning experience. It forces the sofa sitters to start using their bodies and to feel the body-bike movement connections.

BTW, for anyone who wants, Gene Hamilton who Loraula mentioned, has an excellent reputation with www.betterride.com He also has a great newsletter that you can subscribe to that has a lot of really good info on the head game parts of mountain biking, the physical parts, and even bike tech stuff. I would love to take one of his camps sometime, but he never gets up in my neck of the woods so I go to BC instead.