Cat advice needed (long)

[indysteel]

DH and I decided a number of weeks ago to adopt a stray that we'd otherwise been caring for outside. She's a one year old spayed female. We have two other cats, Henry (12) and Izzy (2). We have tried to follow the conventional advice when it comes to introducing a new cat. At first, the new cat, Matilda, was housed in one of our basement rooms. Henry and Izzy new "something" was there and they sniffed us a lot after our visits with Matilda. From there, we allowed the cats to see one another a number of times through a screen door. Those interactions mostly went okay with a minimum of hissing and growling. Frankly, neither Henry nor Matilda were all that interested. Izzy was the only one of the three who seemed obsessed with the Matilda's presence.

From there, we allowed some supervised visits. At first, it didn't go all that badly because Izzy was too nervous to get all that close. Mostly, Matilda just played while Izzy hung out in the corner of the room. But when she finally got some nerve up, it rapidly went downhill. She lunges/chases/attacks at Matilda every chance she gets. We've intervened rather quickly thanks to a water bottle, so nothing has gotten out of hand, but it's still scary.

At that point in the process, Matilda had to undergo dental surgery as she's chipped a tooth on something and it had to be extracted. We kept her in an upstairs bedroom and stopped the daily visits because I didn't want to risk a fight. In the meantime, we got two Feliway diffusers for the main area of the house. One has been going for almost a week, the other for just a couple of days. So far, Izzy seems no different, and she charged at Matilda yesterday again.

I'm not really sure what to do at this point. I've never really had a difficult cat integration before so while I've been a multiple cat owner for a long time, this is the first really difficult introduction I've had to navigate. It's made all the more stressful because we otherwise have no takers for Matilda, and we've grown to really love her since she first showed up in April.

If anybody has any suggestions or words of wisdom, I'd really appreciate them. I know, sadly, that there's a chance that our home is just not the best place for her. I don't know where that leaves us though.

[Veronica]

More time.

How do you know Izzie is not trying to play with Matilda? My cat Cassie has this blood curdling cry when she wants to beat up on Tucker. But she really is just playing.

Veronica

[indysteel]

More time.

How do you know Izzie is not trying to play with Matilda? My cat Cassie has this blood curdling cry when she wants to beat up on Tucker. But she really is just playing.

Veronica

I'm used to Izzy's body language and vocalizations when she "attacks" Henry during play. This is very different and seemingly quite aggressive. Even if it's not intended such, Matilda is reacting to it aggressively herself.

But I agree that more time is needed. I just don't know what baby steps to take during that time. As it stands right now, we take Matilda downstairs and let her sit on the couch with us. If we let her down onto the floor, it takes only a minute or two for an attack to ensue.

[Veronica]

I hope someone chimes in with some good advice for you. I know how much you care about your fur babies. I've been lucky in how all my pets have adapted to each other - even my "rotten" Rottweiler who just seemed to understand that the bedroom was for cats only, unless there was a thunderstorm. :D

Veronica

[indysteel]

I hope someone chimes in with some good advice for you. I know how much you care about your fur babies. I've been lucky in how all my pets have adapted to each other - even my "rotten" Rottweiler who just seemed to understand that the bedroom was for cats only, unless there was a thunderstorm. :D

Veronica

Thanks, V. I sure do care about my fur babies. I never really wanted kids, but my cats provide an outlet for my maternal side. Plus, they're just so darn entertaining. Our house wouldn't be the same without them.

I just wish Izzy could channel the now-departed Sophie. She was so mellow when it came to other animals. She and Henry were best buddies, and I think he and Matilda could be friends if we could just get Izzy to simmer down.

[Veronica]

I am digging being on summer vacation because I can watch my two. Tucker chooses the oddest places to sleep - front paws in one of Thom's slippers? :confused: Cassie likes my pillow. They follow me around when they're not napping. Plus I'm getting some quality time with the "ferals". The Curlies and Gray Kitty do like their petting.

Hopefully, Izzie and Matilda will work it out. Maybe they just need to have a good spat.

Veronica

[smilingcat]

I've had big trouble with Mama cat. She was the rescue about 2 years ago. At first everything was going fine then it went downhill.

the problem was she wanted to be an alpha but we already had a well established hierarchy of 10 cats. If mama tried to start anything including our lowest cat on the totem pole, the alpha cat Brendon 10yo Main coon mix and the #2 cat Morgan 6yo rag doll would attack mama.

At first we figure on letting the cats sort it out themselves but it wasn't working.

One thing we didn't do is to take a towel and rub against all of our cats then onto mama to transfer the pack smell on her and reverse. I know this works for chicken. It's a crazy idea but it might reduce the tension.

Sometimes, you have to let the cats sort out their hierarchy themselves. And this means to let them fight it out. You have to be there to make sure no one gets seriously injured. It's nerve wracking to let them "have at it" but sometimes this is what it takes for them to sort out the order in the pack.

I think Izzy is being threatened by Matilda or Izzy doesn't want to become the Omega in three cat household and neither does Matilda.

Since Matilda is the newest, she should be on the bottom of the totem pole. You might want to feed your other two in plain sight of Matilda then feed Matilda last to let her know that she is on the bottom. This may also help.

[Koronin]

I agree that it sounds like there needs to be more time and that they need to sort out who is where in hierarchy.

Our three have a more or less truce with each other. Basically we have 3 cats that do not care for each very much. Although the youngest (and lowest on the totempole) actually would be lost without the other two. She really relies on them for reassurance. The other two are truly both Alpha cats. Basically they seem to have come to some arrangement that they basically just ignore each other.

On the other hand, it is a mistake to even think about bringing another cat into this household. We tried with a stray that adopted us before we moved. Basically all three hate him and decided to hiss and growl if he even moved. He now lives very happily with my mom and my mom's cat who doesn't mind him being there. He's a big cat (about 18lbs when healthy) and is actually an Omega cat. But our three wanted him gone.

[Marquise]

Was also going to suggest rubbing towel on cats to get their smells on each other. Good luck!

[owlice]

More time may help, but it doesn't always. We have two states here: Uneasy (Snarling) Detente and War. It's been nearly six years; things have not improved, even with common enemies (the outdoor ferals) available.

[Catrin]

Was also going to suggest rubbing towel on cats to get their smells on each other. Good luck!


This is a good one, it helped me once in a similar situation. Sometimes it simply takes longer than others...hopefully they will eventually reach detente and then get beyond that.

[indysteel]

I think we've made a bit of progress this weekend. Most if our upstairs is off limits to the cats. So we took them both into our master bedroom for some supervised visits in what we hoped was neutral territory. Izzy is still fixated on her, but she mostly just watched her from a distance. The few times she started to chase, Matilda stopped her in her tracks with a few hisses. So, while we don't have detente, we don't have war either. This morning, Matilda chased a ball around the room and Izzy more or less left her alone. Our thought is to continue this process upstairs until there's virtually no real aggression before trying downstairs, where Izzy is more territorial, again. I imagine this is going to take a while.

[Koronin]

Very glad to hear you have some minor progress on what, I agree, should be more neutral territory.

[westtexas]

I wish I could offer you help, but I'm a terrible behaviorist. My cats still fuss and fume - all started by my older boy cat who will randomly walk up to poor Fat Luna and bite her. I just shout at them and they stop, haha. Shows you what a great trainer I am.

[smilingcat]

I wish I could offer you help, but I'm a terrible behaviorist. My cats still fuss and fume - all started by my older boy cat who will randomly walk up to poor Fat Luna and bite her. I just shout at them and they stop, haha. Shows you what a great trainer I am.

Does Fat Luna take old boy's food or treat? Biting on ear seems to be part of dominance thing. I've noticed this with my pride of cats. The boy who wants to be king keeps getting in trouble with my #2 Rag doll mix (8 yo). Rag doll mix is pretty laid back but after couple of hard bites on his ear by the boy who wants to be king, rag doll dishes out pretty hard. enough so that we have to intervene otherwise the boy cat (well he is all grown up at 5 years) will end up in ER. Boy cat doesn't even try with grampy, #1 main coon mix (13 or 14 yo). He wont tolerate it one bit.

Is there anything you can tell as to why your boy wants to do the dominant thing with Fat Luna? I think it has to do with food.

[indysteel]

I think we're continuing to make some progress. After limiting Izzy and Matilda's visits to a neutral room, we allowed them access to the upstairs hall and landing. Unfortunately, this is an area that Matilda also has some access to when she's not otherwise sequestered in her room. So, she exhibited a bit too much territorialism. I finally decided to let her loose in the main area of the house, the area that is now saturated with Feliway thanks to two diffusers. So far, the visits have gone well. No fights and a minimum of hissing and growling. Izzy follows her though and doesn't let her get out of her sight. Henry is mostly uninterested. I'll feel a lot better if and when Izzy grows less obsessed. It doesn't help that Matilda demands near constant supervision as is. She gets into everything and is a fearless climber.

I'm still just holding my breath about this. If it's truly not a good situation for them, I'd prefer not to force it, but it's hard to know what's reasonable to expect at this point. Ever the optimist, I ordered some Feliway diffuser refills. I do think it's taking the edge off their aggression. I'll have to order a third for the basement litterbox area if we ever make it that far.

[pumpkinpony]

It does take time... I had two cats who were sisters. One died about 2 years ago. They were both very bossy cats but could hold their own against each other. It made it challenging to have any other besides them. After the one died, I picked up another cat from my mom who seems to collect them. :D I kept them completely separate (they could smell and paw fight under the door) for the first month or two. Gradually I was able to let them interact for short periods of time. It seriously took well over 6 months for me to be able to leave them alone together, and over a year for the fur fights to stop. Now two years later, I have a picture I took that completely shocked me - them both eating from the food bowl at the same time!

I didn't find the feliway to help much. I had slightly better luck with Bach's Rescue Remedy. Either dropped onto their gums or in their water.

[westtexas]

Does Fat Luna take old boy's food or treat? Biting on ear seems to be part of dominance thing. I've noticed this with my pride of cats. The boy who wants to be king keeps getting in trouble with my #2 Rag doll mix (8 yo). Rag doll mix is pretty laid back but after couple of hard bites on his ear by the boy who wants to be king, rag doll dishes out pretty hard. enough so that we have to intervene otherwise the boy cat (well he is all grown up at 5 years) will end up in ER. Boy cat doesn't even try with grampy, #1 main coon mix (13 or 14 yo). He wont tolerate it one bit.

Is there anything you can tell as to why your boy wants to do the dominant thing with Fat Luna? I think it has to do with food.

I don't think it has to do with food. They get separate dishes and no food is left out when I'm gone. He bites her just about anywhere he can grab (usually her butt). Other times they are cuddling and he's grooming her. I think it's how he "plays" but she'd rather he fall of a cliff and die than play with him. When I had a little kitten before Luna, Theo would bite the kitten and the two of them would take off tussling. She's just got no interest.

[indysteel]

At the risk of jinxing it, we may have found a forever home for Matilda a/k/a Itty Bitty Kitty. Months ago--not long after we first took her in--a local not for profit offered me a courtesy listing on their website. Two days ago, I finally heard from a woman who had seen the listing and was interested in adopting her. I did my best to be positive about Matilda's personality but also wanted to make sure the woman understood that she's pretty high energy and food-obsessed. She's not a bad cat at all, but she's fearless and often gets into stuff. Otherwise, she just plays and plays and plays.

Signficantly, this woman has no other cats but has had them in the past. While we've made some progress integrating Matilda into our home, our two-year old remains pretty opposed to her. She can also be somewhat aggressive with our geriatric male, and that's the last thing I want. I think it could work out over time, but I don't know how ideal it is for any of them. Plus, as I mentioned, she is totally food obsessed. Dealing with that and the other two cats will be challenging. Not impossible, but challenging. I'd add that we have been using a couple different flower essences with the cats, and it's resulted in much less aggression. The change is actually pretty dramatic. Izzy used to charge Matilda (or vice versa) fairly regularly, and we haven't had a single spat in the time since I started using it.

Anyway, it's certainly not a done deal, but I do think once she sees Matilda, she'll fall in love with her. She looks wonderful and is so full of personality. I'm going to miss her dearly, but this would be a happy outcome.

So, as much as it pains me, please keep your fingers crossed that this woman is willing to adopt her and that, once adopted, they're happy together.

[Melalvai]

Good luck, I hope it works out.

There's a yellow & white boy roaming the neighborhood. Everyone has "adopted" him. We call him NOC (Not Our Cat). Next door he's Ted. The next door down, the 3 yr old told me, his name is Cat. (Duh.)

I gave him water but not food. Someone is feeding him--he pooped in our garden!

I hope someone adopts him enough to get him neutered & give him his shots. I haven't seen him in a couple days, but that person might end up being me. I won't feed him (he's not starving) but I don't want him giving diseases to our girls. He is a cutie-- I do NOT want a 3rd cat. One of our old girls died recently and she was SO much work to care for the last few months. I'm enjoying the break, 2 healthy cats are pretty easy (and cheap) to care for. They don't like NOC at all, and stay inside when he's around.

[indysteel]

We have another stray (a male) that we've fed for some time, but I really want to get out of the business because it just attracts other cats--either because they themselves find their way to our house or people in the area see us as a place to dump their animals. I love cats and I can't bear to see them suffer, but it's hard on me emotionally to care for them indefinitely. That sounds selfish perhaps, but I have to remember that I can only do so much for them. Unfortunately, our local humane society had not proven itself to be a very helpful partner in the effort. So, once I start caring for them, they're essentially "mine."

[indysteel]

Sigh....I think I did jinx it, as I haven't heard back from the woman who expressed an interest in Matilda. I left a message for her a few days ago hoping that she would at least let me know one way or another so that we could move onto Plan B. The fact that she hasn't called or texted to give me a polite "no" really bothers me. Why can't people just be courteous? Is the fear of an awkward conversation that overwhelming?

As to Plan B, I'm really at a loss. We've made some progress getting the cats to peacefully coexist, but we have a long way to go. Izzy still gets aggressive with Matilda here and there, and Matilda still gets aggressive with Henry, who then hides under something.

And Matilda has a few behavioral issues that we'll need to contend with, namely that she is really food obsessed. Everything edible has to be put away or she will go after it. She's ripped through ziploc bags to get at things. While I could fully transition Izzy to eating at set times, Henry is a bit of a grazer. We struggle as it is to get him to eat wet food "on command." So we also leave out some high-protein dry food from he and Izzy. But we won't be able to do that with Matilda. She'll eat all of it. We might be able to deal with it when we're home and our schedule is pretty typical, but vacations will prove to be a challenge. We have one coming up and, as it is, she'll have to stay in her room upstairs (and likely go completely bonkers).

So, this is a long way of saying that the situation isn't ideal. I love Matilda. She has a really big personality for such a small cat, and she clearly adores us. But I don't know how long we can allow the current situation to persist. :(

[jessmarimba]

I have the food problems at my house, too. My oldest cat is definitely a grazer, and she'll let herself be pushed away from the food bowls. Dummycat eats every time he remembers that there's food - if he hears me put food in the dish, if he hears me walk through the kitchen, if he walks past the bowls and sees them, whenever. He'll start eating out of one bowl if I add fresh food, then move to the second one as I fill it, etc. (he won't eat the full bowl, but has to try the food in the next one just in case it's different) He's getting a little chunkier than I'd prefer.

I sort of wonder if I put the bowls someplace more secluded, so they aren't in plain sight, if that would curb dummy's eating without affecting my grazer. She'd still make the effort to get food when she's hungry and maybe he wouldn't feel compelled to eat just because he sees or smells food. Haven't tried it yet though.

[indysteel]

Sorry you are having a hard time with this, Indy.

Have you contacted Cat's Haven (http://www.catshaven.org/)?

Perhaps they could help you find a home for this girl, but you could keep her until they do.

I didn't even know that existed. I'm glad to know that it does, but my problem is this (and this is where my husband and I might end up differing): Itty Bitty's situation right now in our home (and our situation with her) isn't ideal, but it's arguably loads better than even a no-kill shelter. She's safe, and she gets sufficient time to run around and play most days. She, in turn, provides us with love and affection. She's a sweet cat, if a wee bit energetic. I don't know how I'd feel surrendering her to anything but a permanent and appropriate home. I'd rather leave space in a shelter like that for cats who really have no place else to go.

So, we'll see. I haven't given up hope completely that we'll be able to integrate her into our home eventually. Everyone I've talked to has counseled patience.....

[badger]

I hate it when people ignore your efforts to contact them - will it kill them to just call back and say "no thanks"? I've had so many people blow me off on free stuff from Craigslist. It's FREE for crying out loud, could they not text me back and say they changed their minds instead of making me waste time rearraging my time to accommodate flakes?

anyways, sorry for that impromptu rant. I thoroughly sympathize with what you're going through. I went through that when I introduced a younger male cat to my older female. He was hit by a car and couldn't see or walk. When I first introduced them, the first thing he did was chase her!! He's since made a remarkable recovery and walks well and definitely isn't blind.

I've also had no luck with feliway myself. Morley is also food obsessed (he topped out at 21lbs at his heaviest). He was literally yeowling and the only thing that would quiet him was food. He was so agitated he would pick on the female, or when my rottie was still alive he would even go after him. As a last resort I had to medicate him. I hated it, but it was seriously to preserve all our sanity (and the safety of the little female and the Morley's life if the dog turned, which I would not have blamed him one bit).

Long and short, he's 13 years old now and much more mellow (he's off meds now). Ironically what really mellowed him out is the third cat. This was my parents' cat that I took in after my mother's vagabond lifestyle started and this cat LOVES cats. Licks and cuddles with Morley like nothing else and that really seems to have calmed him. Though I think age has a lot to do with it, too.

Sorry I'm not offering my advice. I just empathize with you greatly as I know how stressful it is. I hope everything works out for you!

[indysteel]

:)

I meant keep her with you for now, and use their contacts to find her a forever home. Not have them take her. In fact, they are out of room.

Ah, gotcha. I'll consider it, although I've grown really wary of reaching out to animal groups. They already have more than enough cats in their care for which they need to tap their resources. Why would they help me?

I'm close to contacting our local humane society again. Earlier this summer, I asked for a courtesy listing on their website, but they never returned my email, even though it (a) would have cost them nothing and (b) they know that my husband and I have gone out of our way to help the strays in our care. They've never done the first thing to help us with these cats.

The humane society is a foster program. They did not run a shelter. Foster parents bring their fostered animals to weekly adoption events where the public is invited to visit with and apply for adoption. This is how we got our two year-old cat. My proposal is to participate in the foster program with the hope of adopting her out.

But given my general lack of reception from the humane society, I've been hesitant to ask. They kind of suck, and it really upsets me that they've done so little to help me with the strays we've cared for. If they disappoint me once again, I might just go off.

[smilingcat]

hi Indysteel,

I've worked with cat rescue groups and my partner with golden retriever rescue groups. Common theme is that they are not very organized when it comes to supporting fosters and the animals in care of the fosters. If you want your foster to be adopted out, its up to you to write up his bio, make it sound cute, and you have to make an effort to bring the cat in for a showing and then spend the day of the adoption at the adoption so your cat gets the attention from perspective new family.

Help you see, is often amongst the core members of the rescue group. So if you are just doing this once or twice a year, you are an outsider with not much help.

My advice is to be aggressive and proactive with your fosters adoption. Call and make sure you have a cage available for your foster for the adoption day. Print up cute or sad bio but be honest. You are marketing your foster. Take good photos if the rescue group has a web site with photos of the animal.

Lastly, keep in mind that it is for the animal. Put aside your hurt feeling and when the foster gets adopted out, you will forget the hurt feeling of being ignored or not being appreciated by the rescue group.

I wish you well.

[indysteel]

Great advice, smilingcat. Thank you. You're absolutely right; I need to put my feelings about these organizations aside and do what's best for Matilda.

I did email our local human society yesterday. I was wary to reach out to them again, because they'd ignored my last request for help and hadn't been particularly helpful before--although they were always complimentary of the care my husband and I were giving to our strays. I got a response last night saying that had been given some incorrect information from a vet tech at the vet practice I use that the cat had already been rehomed. Well, in a manner of speaking, it had been rehomed...with us.

In any event, she asked for my phone number to contact me and offered some assistance--although she was vague as to what type of assistance it will be. So, I at least have the faint outline of a Plan B (or we up to Plan C at the moment?).

If one more person (my coworkers mostly) tells me that this should "teach me not to take in strays," I'm gonna explode. I don't regret for a second becoming a guardian to my strays. It is costly and inconvenient at times? Sure, but the reward of knowing we've helped save an animal a sad or painful fate is worth it. Plus, I've gotten so much love and affection from these critters.

Anyway, thanks for letting me unload emotionally in this thread and for all the thoughtful advice. I hope for a happy ending.

[redrhodie]

I was thinking about this thread 2 nights ago when I found a small kitten. I took it in the house (which I never do because of fear of exposing my indoor cats to something) but it had a collar and tags, so I brought it in, and kept it in the bathroom. I and my neighbors called the phone number a few times, and eventually the owner came and got him. I was very proud of myself for helping, because unlike you, I usually try not to get involved. I am really impressed with your ability to deal with this so often. You have a big heart. I hope things work out.

[indysteel]

I was thinking about this thread 2 nights ago when I found a small kitten. I took it in the house (which I never do because of fear of exposing my indoor cats to something) but it had a collar and tags, so I brought it in, and kept it in the bathroom. I and my neighbors called the phone number a few times, and eventually the owner came and got him. I was very proud of myself for helping, because unlike you, I usually try not to get involved. I am really impressed with your ability to deal with this so often. You have a big heart. I hope things work out.

That's good of you to help the cat, but I don't want to imply that somebody isn't a good person if they decide to stay uninvolved. It's a very personal decision and justifiably influenced one way or another by a number of factors. One of the reasons we have intervened is that we seemingly had little choice. This year's stray would not leave our yard once we returned from vacation (she showed up while we were gone). Yes, we could have taken her to animal control, but I know that guarantees almost certain death. Our only other choice--or at least the best one--was to get her spayed.

Like you, I've had serious concerns about the effect these cats may have on our existing indoor cats. That's why we chose to care for last year's strays as outside cats until we were able to relocate them. We decided to give this year's stray a home because, well, we fell in love with her. But she remained segregated until we had an absolutely clean bill of health and we were able to observe her for signs of illness.

So, yes. Becoming the proverbial crazy cat lady isn't everyone's mission in life. I guess it's become mine. I've never had a strong desire to be a mother and, at age 42 and 11 months, I'm really not hoping to become one now. But I've always been an animal person, even when the animals in question where stuffed. When I was little, I was totally fixated on stuffed tigers and koala bears. I even had an escape plan in place in case the house ever caught on fire; they were THAT important to me. I finally got my wish with two real dogs when I was 11. My homelife was so dysfunctional by that point, but the dogs--a Scottie and a Westie--were my lifeline. I think they saved me from a sad fate in a lot of ways. Pets and animals in general continue to play such a big role in my mental health and wellness. As much stress as they sometimes cause, I just love them to pieces.

[indysteel]

We finally got a courtesy listing with our local humane society for Matilda. The first call was from a woman with a dog. I have no idea how Matilda will react to a dog. I've never had an occasion to introduce her to one. Well, this woman wanted to bring her dog over and throw them together.

Uh, no. I explained that I didn't think that was a good way to do an introduction, at least if you have any hope of harmony. She kept insisting and I finally just said thanks but no thanks. Ugh.

[WindingRoad]

Is there a reason Matilda cannot be an outdoor kitty?

[indysteel]

Theoretically, yes. But one of the outdoor cats I carried for last summer was hit and killed by a car on our street last year. I couldn't bear for Matilda to meet the same fate. So while I'd consider rehoming her to someone intending to keep her outside in the right environment, she'll stay inside as long as she under my car.