Sticky dilemma about a "friend" with a sordid past

[emily_in_nc]

Would love to get feedback from the wise women here as I am in a REAL quandry about a situation that has arisen recently:

When we first moved to Belize, we met a really nice couple riding bikes. We fell in love with the wife (I'll call her Kathy), and the husband (whom I'll call Bill) was nice enough as well. We struck up a casual friendship and met them for lunch several times. We live on a small island, so you see people out and about quite frequently, riding beach bikes, shopping, etc.

Several months later, we returned from a trip to the mainland to find the island abuzz about "Bill". An article was posted on a local website claiming that he was a crook, down here escaping charges in his former home country. There was a link posted to a blog that contained a sordid story about the people he had conned in the past out of lots of big money. Pictures of him too, smiling back at me, saying that he seemed like the most sincere man, and that is how he was able to con people.

That led me to do some further research, turning up another couple of blogs detailing other scams he'd pulled and lied and defrauded people out of lots of money. One site even mentioned that he had a new wife (Kathy) and was probably in Belize "in hiding" now.

I felt SICK. Although we'd heard stories about people hiding out in Belize from the legal system in the US and elsewhere, these were people we liked and thought we could trust. We ran into Bill at a grocery store soon after all this, and he looked BAD. Unshaven, downtrodden, and depressed. He wouldn't even meet our eyes (and I couldn't meet his either). We found out that the condo he had supposedly bought down here, he never closed on. He left the real estate agent holding the bag for a few $K and had to move into a dumpy apartment. I guess he'd managed to lose all the money he'd conned people out of over the years.

Soon after that, we got an email from Kathy. She told us that Bill was a compulsive liar but was trying to straighten himself out. He had started going to AA meetings on the island to beat his demons. She never mentioned that he was a con-man or a thief, just that he had mismanaged his money and never closed on the condo. She said she was moving back to her hometown and was very happy to have met us. She wasn't sure if she'd be back.

So, she left Belize for a few months. We'd occasionally see Bill riding his bike alone, and we said a quick hello a few times. He looked better.

About a month ago, he rode up to us as we were leaving a shop. He told us that he had turned his life around, was going to AA regularly, and that Kathy was coming back to Belize to resume their marriage. He looked much better and was very upbeat. We congratulated him, but I felt SO weird about the whole thing. I just didn't want to see him or talk to him, knowing what he had done in the past. If he's truly a sociopath as so many con men are, I am not sure he can truly change -- maybe for short periods of time, but probably not forever. I just don't trust that he can really turn his life around.

Kathy is back now, and while I was in the US last week, she and Bill rode by our place on their bikes and chatted with my DH on our balcony for awhile. Last night, I got an email from her. She said that Bill is doing great in AA and really working on his "lying problem". She said that they would love to get together for lunch soon. Eeeeek.

I just don't know how I feel about this. I adore Kathy; she's one of the sweetest people we've met since we got here. But I just don't feel comfortable with Bill at all. My DH thinks we should forgive him his past sins, and he doesn't feel uncomfortable hanging out with them. I just can't get past knowing what I know and can hardly imagine sitting at a lunch table, laughing and talking with them as we did before all this came out.

My temptation is to respond to Kathy's email and just be honest about my discomfort -- tell her that we adore her, but I just don't feel comfortable hanging out with them b/c of Bill's past, that I knew a lot more than she had told me from seeing things on the internet, and that I am just too uncomfortable with him knowing what I know.

But then I think maybe I am being too harsh and judgmental and should just give the guy another chance. I am sure they both have been shunned by many people here now that the truth is out and could probably use some friends. And Kathy in particular seems to be perfectly innocent in any of his past dealings and shouldn't have to be punished for what he has done.

What would you do? I am so torn about this! Any/all comments and advice welcomed.

Thanks!

[bmccasland]

Hmmm. Want to think about this....

My knee jerk reaction is to chat with Kathy, in person, and be honest with her. Email can be impersonal, and despite the emoticons :cool: the wrong messages can be sent. :eek::confused: A great deal of communication is from body language, not just the words we say.

Can you chat with Kathy, without Bill?

[tulip]

I doubt that you know the whole story. But it really doesn't matter. They will work things out or not-- it's their life. I wouldn't recommend going into any financial deals with the guy, however. And if he's truly wanted and a fugitive, that brings up legal questions about reporting...no idea if that's the case, though.

You seem to like Kathy a lot, so why not just be her friend and talk to her about the rumors and articles and how they make you uncomfortable? "Perfectly innocent" strikes me as a bit naive, but on the other hand there might be some value in experiencing the friendship on a present basis.

I have a friend with a partner with a sordid past that's been well documented in the press and courts. It's a delicate balance. I enjoy their company, but I don't get too cozy. Good luck!

[Irulan]

First of all AA is for alcoholics, not compulsive liars or con people. Sure those things can all go together, but I call BS on it. If the guy were REALLY working a program the first thing he would do is makes some sort of amends to all the people he's screwed over the years. Someone can go to all the meetings in the world, and give it lots of lip service, but one has ago actually work the program, not just tell the world that you are going to meetings. There's a lot more to it than quitting the booze.

Second I agree with Tulip that "perfectly innocent" is a stretch. Tulip is right in that if you want to remain social, there is a very fine line you need to walk to protect yourself.

[smilingcat]

"Sociopath and psychopathic liars do not change. They can't help it. " is my understanding. I ran into such a person. She adopted two of my foster kittens and had to "search and rescue" after she disposed of the two wonderful kittens. We have both of them now. After 3 years, one still has "PTSD"

When I was dealing with this psychopathic liar, I talked to my LAPD detective about such people. I asked him when can you tell when they are telling the truth and when they are not. Detective laughed and said to the effect, "When you figure that out, tell me the secret because I haven't figure it out" He said they believe in their own lies so much so that reality and their lies blur into their own reality. It's one and the same to them. If LAPD detective who is ready to retire can't get the truth from such a person, I don't think an average person have any chance.

I am sorry for your friend "Kathy".

And definitely do not lend any money to them or engage in them with any financial activity. Do not give them any thing with your signature. Nor make any loans of personal items.

[emily_in_nc]

Thanks for the feedback.

Don't worry, the last thing I would ever do would be to get into ANY financial dealings with these folks! I wouldn't even do that with friends whom I didn't know had a history of scamming/conning others, much less with someone who did. Friends and money can be a very sticket wicket, and I don't mix 'em.

It would be very hard to be friends with Kathy without Bill. I don't even have a phone number for her as we've always corresponded via email when planning lunches and such in the past. They are together all the time. Even though I am 95% sure she was not involved in his scams, she is a nurse by trade and may have a "rescuer" type of personality and feel she can save him. And he may have even convinced her that there was nothing wrong with some of what he was doing. I am not sure. I don't really want to have lunch with her and sit around discussing Bill. I had already written them off as friends when I found out about his past and when she left the island -- I never expected to see her again, to be honest.

Here in Belize, it is my understanding that AA is attended by people with a variety of compulsive disorders. It's not like the states where there are different groups for overeaters, sex addicts, drug addicts, etc. AA is pretty much a catch-all here as it is all that is available, besides church. Kathy did say that they are attending church here as well.

I do see what you mean, irulan, about him not being able to "make amends" from here -- good point. I just don't know the entire situation.

I did have a long discussion with my DH about this, and after talking, he realized he was still uncomfortable with Bill as well -- so for now I'm just going to write a quick reply to her email thanking her for some bookstore info she gave me and telling her how happy we can tell that Bill is to have her back on the island. I am not going to mention lunch. If it comes up again, like if we run into them in town, I may have to talk to her further about our discomfort, but I'm hoping she'll just get the message when I don't respond to that part of her email. She had to assume that that was a possibility when she wrote me, I'd hope.

I realize that email may be kind of impersonal, but as we were new friends, more on a casual basis than a deep friendship, I don't feel bad about handling it this way rather than in person. If we had a long history, it would be different, but this was just a quick friendship we struck up based on all being here on the island together. It's a small island and expats tend to strike up friendships quickly, but they are usually pretty casual as people come and go here frequently.

[Jo-n-NY]

Emily, I am so sorry to hear this about your friends. I guess I might have seen them on your blog but don't remember which friends they are. I also think both me and DH would keep our distance. I feel bad the position it puts on Kathy and I try to believe in 2nd chances but that might take time as he will need to "earn" any respect from friends.

[Crankin]

I wouldn't take this any further. I like your solution.

[emily_in_nc]

Thanks, ladies. I wrote the brief email thanking her for the bookstore info and wishing them well. It probably seemed a bit terse, but it should give her the message. It's too bad, but I realized that if we did go along with lunch or anything else furthering the friendship, it would be because I was too wimpy to stand up for what I believe in. And I have done that far too many times in my life to date. If things were different, I'd love to be her friend, but that's just not going to happen now.