Thoughts on Target Heart Rate?

[Jiffer]

I never used to ride with a heart rate monitor. I had trouble trying to get one to work, so I just went by perceived exertion. I never knew what it meant when someone said, "My heart rate was at XXX!" The numbers were like a foreign language.

When I developed adrenal fatigue and could hardly ride a bike worth beans all of a sudden, I saw a nutritionist, who told me to limit my rides to 30 minutes and keep my heart rate at 135-140. I guess she got the number based on my age, 42 and a certain percentage of maximum heart rate. That heart rate comes out to 76-79% of maximum heart rate, per formulas on the web.

It took some doing to get a heart rate monitor working, but I finally did. Turns out, riding at the suggested heart rate was actually faster than what I had been doing for the previous month or so after the strong fatigue set in. But I was skeptical at whether or not the range she gave me was truly right for me, and after riding at her suggested HR a few times consecutively, it seemed my symptoms worsened. So I'd back off, eventually try again, back off again, sometimes not riding at all. Just going for consecutive easy walks seemed to worsen my symptoms as well. UGH!!! :eek:

Fast forward 10 months, my health hadn't improved, so I switched to a naturopathic doctor who confirmed adrenal fatigue, but said I also had candida (yeast overgrowth), low hormones and subclinical hypothyroidism.

After being on the very strict candida diet for 3 1/2 weeks (no sugar, among many other restrictions), I started to feel a bit more energy and it finally seemed I could actually consistently ride and not feel worse. YAY! It's now been over 8 weeks. I'm still not fully well and have to be careful how much and how hard I ride. I realized I overdid it a couple of weeks ago and backed off, so I'm still finding the right balance. I couldn't get my heart rate monitor working at first . . . again, after not using it for so long (cause I just didn't ride at all for so long or only really super easy). So I went back to perceived exertion for a while, but finally got it working and used it for my last two rides. I now agree that 135-140 is probably about as hard as I should go most of the time. My nutritionist had told me that my speed should improve in time even as I stay within the heart rate and 30 minute time frame. And eventually, as my health improved, I could ride longer and at a higher heart rate.

My husband doesn't believe the formula used to determine heart rate fits everyone. His heart rate gets a lot higher than what the formula says it should be, but he knows what is normal for "him".

I'm just curious what your experiences are with heart rate. Does the formula seem to hold true for you? What percentage of maximum heart rate do you tend to stay at, on say moderate paced rides? I'll take any thoughts on heart rate anyone wants to dish out.

[Eden]

The formula is pretty bogus. To really know you need to do a max test or calculate from a sub-max test.

I haven't done it for some years, but my max used to be over 210. Using the formula it would have supposed been 187.....

[Irulan]

ditto, I've always been told "the formula" is not accurate at all. I too have done sub max tests.... essentially you warm up for 20 minutes, and then ride at the consistent maximum that you can ride in for the next 20 minutes at a fairly high cadence( 90-100), take an average of your highest HR and then calculate:

http://lwcoaching.com/?p=138
http://lwcoaching.com/trainingplans/levelCalcs.htm

[M-Rad]

Jiffer, i am also battling adrenal issue due to overtraining except my cortisol pitches up at any perceived stress. My hormones are normal but are behaving as if I have a deficiency.

I was misdiagnosed put on a bunch of hormones that made my symptoms work.

I am now working with a nutritionist as well. He has me riding 6 days on trainer for one hour and one long ride (60 miles) on Saturdays. I have to stay under 130 max heart rate (zone 1 - ability to carry conversation). He went riding with me once (he is a cyclist too and works with a lot of teams), he set my pace at 12 mph and told me not to exceed it. While the pace is excruciatingly slow, I find I run into problems if I exceed this pace or if my heart rate runs beyond 140 (way worse if my hr goes to 160'and beyond). If I don't follow these guidelines, I have insomnia that night and will wake up several times unable to fall asleep and only averaging 4 hours of sleep meanwhile waking up with rapid breathing and sweating.

Also, I have been banned from putting any pressure on my legs so hills are out of the question for now. He said for now the most important thing is to build base. The only way to do this is to ride long and slow at a low heart rate. He cited a 50 mile ride he did with some cat 1's. No one went beyond 18 mph. He said in other sports you can push and stress your body to advance to the next level but you can't do this in cycling without a solid base. He could not stress the importance of long and slow.

Hope that helps.

[Jiffer]

Jiffer, i am also battling adrenal issue due to overtraining except my cortisol pitches up at any perceived stress. My hormones are normal but are behaving as if I have a deficiency.

I was misdiagnosed put on a bunch of hormones that made my symptoms work.

I am now working with a nutritionist as well. He has me riding 6 days on trainer for one hour and one long ride (60 miles) on Saturdays. I have to stay under 130 max heart rate (zone 1 - ability to carry conversation). He went riding with me once (he is a cyclist too and works with a lot of teams), he set my pace at 12 mph and told me not to exceed it. While the pace is excruciatingly slow, I find I run into problems if I exceed this pace or if my heart rate runs beyond 140 (way worse if my hr goes to 160'and beyond). If I don't follow these guidelines, I have insomnia that night and will wake up several times unable to fall asleep and only averaging 4 hours of sleep meanwhile waking up with rapid breathing and sweating.

Also, I have been banned from putting any pressure on my legs so hills are out of the question for now. He said for now the most important thing is to build base. The only way to do this is to ride long and slow at a low heart rate. He cited a 50 mile ride he did with some cat 1's. No one went beyond 18 mph. He said in other sports you can push and stress your body to advance to the next level but you can't do this in cycling without a solid base. He could not stress the importance of long and slow.

Hope that helps.

That does help. Thanks so much. I've searched high and low for anything I could find to help me know what I should be doing when it comes to riding. The first doctor I went to was a cyclist and recommended by a coach. That's why I went to him, but he was a conventional doctor and after he tested for anemia, which I suspected, and said I didn't have that, I didn't have a lot of faith that he was going to get to the bottom of my issues. Going to both my nutritionist and my naturopathic doctor, while I think I got to the bottom of my problems and am getting the help I need for my health, I feel like they don't "get me" with the cycling and don't truly know how to instruct me when it comes to that.

Like I said, now that my fatigue has lessened some, I do feel like the HR my nutritionist gave me seems reasonable, at least for 30-40 minute rides. However, if I could build my base and ride longer distances at a lower HR, then I would LOVE to do that . . . and have wondered if that would be safe for me to do. It seemed like it would, but I've been afraid to try.

I have done many a 30 minute ride between 10-12 mph hour for the past year, so yeah, I get the frustration of SLOW. But if I could slowly build to a lot longer than 30 minutes at that pace, I would be thrilled. And once my health issues are better resolved I'll have the base to build on and I know I need that.

You said some other things that made me go "hmmm". Some things I'll have to pay attention to. I do have high cortisol levels at night, particularly early in the morning around 4 a.m., which wake me up sometimes and keep me from falling back asleep. It comes and goes. Some nights I get a reasonable night's sleep and others I don't. I also get hot and sweaty more some nights than others (but not rapid breathing). I'll have to start paying attention to any correlation there might be with those symptoms and my previous day's bike ride . . . or other exertion.

One of my symptoms is dizziness. My eyes get that black out sensation when I stand, particularly at night or morning when I get out of bed, but sometimes during the day. It used to be all the time, even just getting out of the car, but now it's mostly at night and sometimes during the day. I do notice that my level of exercise affects that. When that happens it's a drop in blood pressure and it's a symptom of adrenal fatigue. The first time I saw my nutritionist she took my BP sitting and then standing. When I stood it dropped 30 points. (It's supposed to go up 3 to 5 points or so.) Now when I have it tested, it only drops a little, so I'm seeing progress.

I find it interesting that your nutritionist has you on a trainer. I suppose that's to keep you from riding any hills. We just moved to about the worse place I could live and do flat rides from my house. I pretty much go back and forth along a very short stretch of road below our house which is "sort of" flat. Or I put my bike in my car and drive somewhere. No matter where I go, there will always be a minimum of at least a 2 or 3% incline somewhere in my ride. And I hate riding on trainers. But I just go stupid slow on those 2%'s, watching my heart rate, and when I eventually turn around, I get to fly down them. ;) My average pace today was about 11.8 going west and 18 or so going east for a 14.2 average. It's amazing the difference in pace on such a minor incline, just by staying at a certain heart rate.

Anyway, thanks so much for your input. I think I'll try doing one "long" ride a week, keeping my heart rate lower than suggested by my nutritionist. I was starting to do some weekly long rides, if you call 10 miles long, but at the end of my second one I wasn't feeling so good. I think I pushed my pace too much on that and a couple of previous shorter rides. That was before my HR monitor was working and, since I was feeling a little better, I was testing my limits a bit. I hate to go so slow, but slow I will go until my health improves.

Thanks again!

[Jiffer]

ditto, I've always been told "the formula" is not accurate at all. I too have done sub max tests.... essentially you warm up for 20 minutes, and then ride at the consistent maximum that you can ride in for the next 20 minutes at a fairly high cadence( 90-100), take an average of your highest HR and then calculate:

http://lwcoaching.com/?p=138
http://lwcoaching.com/trainingplans/levelCalcs.htm

Yeah, the problem with that is I can't ride for 20 minutes at a high intensity. :confused: I've had this same discussion with my husband.

Thanks for your comments.

[OakLeaf]

I think as long as you seem to have found by trial and error what's a safe HR zone for you, stick with that and don't even worry what your max might be.

It's true that just like any "predicted" formulas, the "predicted" HR tables might be true across large populations, but not much use for individuals. It's also true that whatever your max, it does go down as you age. When you're 100% and you want to start getting really strong really fast, then you can do a test ... for now, it seems like you already know what you need to know.

[goldfinch]

I think as long as you seem to have found by trial and error what's a safe HR zone for you, stick with that and don't even worry what your max might be.

It's true that just like any "predicted" formulas, the "predicted" HR tables might be true across large populations, but not much use for individuals. It's also true that whatever your max, it does go down as you age. When you're 100% and you want to start getting really strong really fast, then you can do a test ... for now, it seems like you already know what you need to know.

From what I have read the predicted HR tables are not even that accurate for large populations. Here is an article that discusses a study of a large number of healthy women and their maximum heart rate: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/05/recalibrated-formula-eases-womens-workouts/

It suggests using the formula 206 minus 88% of your age.

However, the result is as you say only based on averages and the number may be too low or too high, depending on the woman.

Anyway, 220 minus age is too high. On average. At least according to this one study. Though the sample size was really quite large.
In my own case, if I do a hard set of intervals with a personal trainer (which I did last fall, hated, and quit) my heart rate maxed out at 158 and for very short time periods. Oddly, this is exactly the number I get with the 206 minus 88% of my age.

[Crankin]

My HR has always been high compared to what it's "supposed" to be. I quit wearing my monitor long ago, because of this. I know what my pattern is, and it only deviates if I am getting sick or have over trained (which for me, doesn't take much).
When I wake up, my HR is about 55-58. As soon as I get up, my HR at rest is about 68-70. It goes up very quickly, just with walking and normal activities. When I am riding, it's between 120 and 150. At my age, 80% is in the 130s, which seems low; I am not out of shape and while my max has gone down in the last 10 years, it hasn't gone down that much. But, it's very consistent. So... I stopped thinking about it.

[Jiffer]

I think as long as you seem to have found by trial and error what's a safe HR zone for you, stick with that and don't even worry what your max might be.

I agree and that's pretty much what I'm doing. I was mostly curious what other's thoughts were on the subject of HR and I'm finding it interesting that not one person so far thinks the formula is a good way to calculate it.

[Jiffer]

I am now working with a nutritionist as well. He has me riding 6 days on trainer for one hour and one long ride (60 miles) on Saturdays. I have to stay under 130 max heart rate (zone 1 - ability to carry conversation). He went riding with me once (he is a cyclist too and works with a lot of teams), he set my pace at 12 mph and told me not to exceed it.

First of all, I find it very intriguing that you are riding 6 days a week. That sounds like a lot! But when you are riding at such a low intensity, I guess it's fine.

How did he determine your 130 max? Was it when he went riding with you and gauged how you did?

[M-Rad]

Ha!Ha! jiffer, I am in SoCal too! Once we are both past this, we should go do a century ride to celebrate.

One thing i forgot to mention is that as I am doing these slow efforts my cadence needs to be above 95. At first I thought this is stupid, I'll never get any better doing this but I noticed that within a week my conditioning had improved. If my avg hr was 125 riding trainer at 13mph at 95 cadence, then the following week my hr was lower and the same speed felt easier than the week before, so there is a method to his madness. As my nutrionist said, I need to ride zone .5 (even less than a zone 1). 135 hr is the max I can go to, so when I do my trainer rides, I try to stay way under this to prevent stress to my body as I rebuild my base.

On my long rides, I choose flat routes as much as possible. I do come across some hills that are between 2-4% grade. I just make sure to go very slowly and spin. This is tough for me b/c I am a climber but I am sticking to what my nutritionist says. I've tried to ride hard a couple of times and i really screwed myself the next couple of days in terms of stress and insomnia. Since I've been dealing with this since last September, I don't want to go backwards anymore. From now on, it's long and slow for me (at 95 cadence and above).

What supplements are you on? My problem was cortisol. I could not fall asleep or stay asleep. Then one stupid doctor put me on mega doses of progesterone and melatonin to help me sleep. Wrong! Both these convert to cortisol. So at 10pm, I'm wide awake ready to run a marathon. I had to take sleep aids to get to sleep but would still wake up at 2 and 4 am unable to get back to sleep. My nutritionist took me off of those hormones. Now at bedtime I take some cal/mag/zinc along with 5 htp. That helps.

Your blood sugar spikes a lot. How many times a day do you eat. My food plan requires me to eat 7 x a day. I eat every two hours. Aside from my main meals, my snacks consist of a fat and sugar (fruit with tablespoon of almond butter). Before I go to bed, I eat a combo of shredded wheat, applesauce and almond butter to prevent my blood sugar from rising during the night and preventing my cortisol from going up to compensate. I had a friend go through adrenal fatigue where he was tired all the time due to low cortisol and he used a lot of salt on his food plus ate lots of protein.

Also when I do my long rides, I make sure to try to get in 400 calories for each hour of riding to prevent cortisol from rushing in to the job b/c I am running out of energy. So I have been relying on those Justin almond butter packets (the flavored ones like honey almond or chocolate b/c it is all about pairing fat and sugar when you work out.)

The next thing they are going to put me on is testosterone. My hormone range is normal but testosterone was slighly below normal. He feels it is too low for an athlete. The theory now is that I don't have enough T, so adrenaline and cortisol jump up to compensate. Will let you know how it goes. What are your hormone levels like? I am 45 yo. Since this started, I haven't had a period. I hope I didn't put myself into menopause.

Well I'm off to eat some breakfast and then spin for an hour. Woo-hoo!

Let me know if any of this makes sense.

[M-Rad]

I don't know how he came up with hr number. I am older but I think that number was based on the fact that once I start hitting 150 hr, my stress goes up. I literally feel like an anemic person with asthma, I huff and puff with no energy to turn the pedals.

[M-Rad]

Ps - one final thing. On the road, I never ever ride in my big chain ring (only on descents then it's right back down again to spinning).

On trainer, I ride in my easiest gear.

Again, this is not to put pressure on legs or cause hr to go up above my allotted max.

[Jiffer]

Hey M-Rad, I'm gonna message you so the rest of the forum doesn't have to read our conversation. ;)

[Artista]

I've tried to ride hard a couple of times and i really screwed myself the next couple of days in terms of stress and insomnia.
This is very timely. I did a significantly more strenuous ride yesterday than I'm accustomed to. I was very tired by bedtime and should have slept like a baby. Instead, I woke up as soon as my head hit the pillow. I ended up taking a Benadryl to get to sleep but still didn't feel refreshed this morning.

I have sleeping problems off and on. On the troublesome nights, even if I can get to sleep naturally, I wake up every two hours on the dot. I've always attributed the sleeping problems to consuming too many carbs during the day. I never associated MORE exercise with insomnia. I'm going to start monitoring that association a whole lot more closely now.

[Catrin]

Yes, there is an exercise induced insomnia, and I am prone to it. I also can't drink coffee after 12, and really shouldn't have 9:00 am...

[Artista]

I've heard of exercise induced insomnia but always thought that it was caused by working out too late in the day. I finished my ride by 1:00. I never would have considered that the additional exercise that early in the day could affect my sleep.

I swear that I learn something new every day on TE:)

[Catrin]

I've heard of exercise induced insomnia but always thought that it was caused by working out too late in the day. I finished my ride by 1:00. I never would have considered that the additional exercise that early in the day could affect my sleep.

I swear that I learn something new every day on TE:)

Personally, I've found that if my exercise is above a certain intensity level or longer than a certain number of hours I always have at least a touch of insomnia - regardless of how tired/sleepy I might be before bed. I've not heard it described that way, but that is how it appears to affect me. I've always heard it the way you describe.This is one reason I don't like to have my long ride on Sunday as it increases the chance I will go to the office tired the next day. I also can't have even one beer too close to bedtime - or I've the same problem. It may be that I am just prone to that type of insomnia which makes it more likely for non-traditional triggers.

[M-Rad]

Arista,

I used to get exercise induced insomnia when I would do intervals at night. Back then the only problem I had was in falling asleep (would stay up an extra 2 hours past bedtime but that was it).
What I am going through now and you may be experiencing a touch of is adrenal stress. Your body starts spitting out cortisol at all the wrong times. Cortisol is a stress hormone. The drop in cortisol at night is what causes the crash when you fall asleep and low levels of cortisol help you stay asleep during the night.
I had a hard time believing that my ride early in the day triggered my insomnia. But it was true. If I worked out during the morning. I'd feel fine all day but by night time my cortisol would pitch up. I couldn't fall asleep and would wake up every two hours (2AM and 4AM religously). When I was in my worst state, I would wake up in middle of night with my heart racing, rapid breathing and sweating (almost like hot flashes). I woke up as if startled by something and then couldn't get back to sleep. This would go on a few days after the ride. I tested this by staying off the bike, and then my body would normalize a bit but as soon as I went out there and pushed it again, my overworked adrenals would respond with excess cortisol and I'd be right back in that vicious insomnia cycle.
Be careful. Once your cortisol/adrneals go, it is prone to mess up your other hormones as well. Make sure you are properly hydrated and are getting sufficient calories (especially when you are riding). Take your recovery seriously. If you feel tired, don't push it. It will cause your adrenals to work very hard to overcome the fatigue it feels in the face of additional stress from training.
I've gotten used to taking my resting morning HR. If it is 5 points above normal, I either stay off the bike or scale my ride way back. The times I didn't adhere to this rule, I noticed I suffered insomnia that night.
Hope that makes sense.

[Catrin]

Some of this is sounding familiar M-Rad...Once I DO get to sleep on those harder exercise days, if I do, then it is up every 2-3 hours. I now refer to it as my "sleep breaks" :o I have to get up at 4:30 regardless. This doesn't help.

[M-Rad]

Catrin,

Just noticed you are on a SI lady gel flow. How do you like it? I went saddle shopping all weekend - came up empty.

Worst part is I got confusing advice from two different bike shops. Some say your sit bones should be on the widest part of the saddle. Another shop (more racer orientated said you should be sitting in the nose of the saddle right before it widens. Selle SMP and fizik models seem to lean towards this b/c their saddles actually have a bit of a craddle that prevents you from sliding back to the furtherest part of the saddle. Guy from bike shop #1 said, yeah that's great if you are riding TT or triathoons but on long rides it would kill you.

I'm now waiting for LBS#3 to get a SI SLR lady in so I can test it.

Do you like your saddle? How long are your longest rides?

[Catrin]

Catrin,

Just noticed you are on a SI lady gel flow. How do you like it? I went saddle shopping all weekend - came up empty.

Worst part is I got confusing advice from two different bike shops. Some say your sit bones should be on the widest part of the saddle. Another shop (more racer orientated said you should be sitting in the nose of the saddle right before it widens. Selle SMP and fizik models seem to lean towards this b/c their saddles actually have a bit of a craddle that prevents you from sliding back to the furtherest part of the saddle. Guy from bike shop #1 said, yeah that's great if you are riding TT or triathoons but on long rides it would kill you.

I'm now waiting for LBS#3 to get a SI SLR lady in so I can test it.

Do you like your saddle? How long are your longest rides?

I think the SI SLR Lady is different from the SI Lady (LDY), though I could well be mistaken. I get confused by all of the similar names that Selle Italia seems to have. I had quite the saddle journey before finding this one, starting with Brooks. I love my SI Lady, and the furthest I've ridden on it is 75 miles.

One thing to keep in mind is I've a VERY upright riding position due to arthritis in my hands not allowing me to use road bars. I ride 2-inch riser bars with grips, and I can ride for hours without hand pain or saddle issues. I suspect that my contact with the saddle is quite different than yours as you likely have road bars. I also have this same saddle on my mountain bike.

Good luck on your search!

[bathedinshadow]

I didn't read all of these responses, so forgive me if I'm repeating some things. But my friend actually works in the athletic department as a sort of expert on these very things. He does all the testing on the athletes to get there stats Vo2 max, max HR, body fat, etc.

The calculation that is typically used is 220 - your age. That is a VERY generic calculation. The only way to truly determine your Max HR is to go to an expert and literally push yourself to that point. Don't do this on your own, it can be dangerous and it's extremely uncomfortable! According to that calculation, my Max HR is 188. I know for a fact that it's higher as I can hit 188 and feel fine, if tired. I had mine tested by my friend 2 years ago and it was 199. I'd hazard to guess it's about the same now as I still exercise and peak the same way. My ex has a crazy high Max HR. In fact. At my age (32), it was reaching 203 at it's peak regularly. We ended up going to a doctor and having an EKG to make sure nothing was wrong. Everything was fine.

People are just different. My resting HR is usually about 48. When I'm extremely relaxed, it's gone down as low as 42. But when I work out, it's usually higher than everybody else. It's just the way my body works. There is no "calculation" that can accurately assess this.

[nuliajuk]

I used to have a swim coach who also had a masters degree in kinesiology, and he advised his triathlete clients to use nasal breathing as a guideline to staying below lactate threshold. The theory is that, barring any sinus or nose cartilage problems, the point at which you have to start breathing with your mouth is usually the approximate point at which you transition from aerobic to anaerobic effort. It seems to work for most people, but if you're not used to breathing through your nose while exercising, it can seem hard to get enough air at first.

So, give that a try and see if it works. Also, heart rate monitors work better with some sort of liquid between the sensor and your skin. Nasal lubricating gel works great, but even spit will do.

(I guess this explains why I was always overtrained and tired when I was in my 20s - I had excess cartilage in my nose and couldn't breath through my nostrils even at rest.)

[bathedinshadow]

Yes, supposedly breathing through your nose also eliminates exercise induced headaches as well! Not that that's an issue, but just another advantage.