Obesity and addiction

[lph]

Inspired by goldfinch's beautiful post, and some of the comments after:

I've been reading a thread lately on another bike forum, about obesity. It started off as a discussion around the use of surgery to limit the size of the stomach (don't know the medical terms well enough here), but veered into a general discussion of why people become obese, or why they don't. One brave man told about his journey from life-threatening obesity, via cycling to just being slightly overweight, and unfortunately, back. He was now well on his way back to being seriously obese, but not heavy enough to qualify for surgery or any other of the more extreme measures. He said himself that he knew how to fix it but just couldn't do it alone, he needed help. He also told about how his eating disorder probably was linked to a very traumatic childhood with a lot of violent abuse.

And I've had his story on my mind. Granted, his case is extreme, and I think very few people are unlucky enough to experience that level of psychic trauma. At the same time, his description of how incredibly hard it was to rely on pure willpower all the time, every day, to stay "normal" in a world where most people around him just... ate, was quite an eye-opener.

I've never been more than just uncomfortable stocky, but my point is that for me it just doesn't take that kind of willpower. I need good habits, like bike commuting, "clean" food in the house etc to stay at the weight I want, but basically I enjoy exercise, I enjoy being fit, most of my friends enjoy doing active things, and while I love food, I just don't think about it much unless I'm hungry. I think that may be the case for many people, that good habits and a love of physical activity is enough, so that willpower doesn't really play that big a role. But I do understand addiction, and I do understand mental imbalance, so I can easily see how food can mean much more to someone than just food.

Any thoughts? It seems to me that a discussion around obesity as a general problem in society isn't really worth much as long as one assumes that everyone has the same relationship with food. And from reading how easy, and how incredibly hard people find giving up even smoking, it seems obvious to me that addiction and/or habits can be incredibly strong and very individual.

[Crankin]

For many people, it's the same as substance addiction, cutting, or whatever else takes the pain and gives you comfort. Yes, trauma is involved in a lot of these cases.
Some people say they would rather take a pill than eat. For me, this is inconceivable. Food is a huge part of my life. In my case it's cultural, but still, it would be hard to think any other way.

[limewave]

I'll jump in and say that I am convinced that I am addicted to food. And I've struggled with obesity and weight gain my entire life, topping the scales at 320+ pounds. I was so big that I could not even buy clothes at Lane Bryant anymore.

Food is an addiction I still struggle with.

I hide food. I'll hide evidence of food I've eaten. Sometimes I'll eat an entire package of cookies, candy, icecream, bread, peanut butter, chips, (fill in the blank) . . . and then be so embarassed and humiliated that I run out to the store to replace the package before anyone finds out. Sometimes during those episodes I get the sensation of 'blacking-out.'

There are times I will eat and continue eating until it is physically impossible for me to put more food in my body. I eat when I'm tired, when I'm stressed, angry, sad, etc.

It's a comfort thing for me. A distraction. A way of shaming myself. Even a way to sabotage myself (I'm not good enough to succeed).

Finally accepting that this was an addiction and coming to terms that I would struggle with food every single day was a turning point for me.

I do have to write down what I eat and get on the scale every single day. When I don't do that, I relapse. Weighing in is about holding myself accountable, sort of like attending an AA meeting.

I've worked really hard to not let myself get obsessive in the other direction (anorexia, bulemia). I was afraid to have kids because of how being pregnant would affect my body. But, I did not want to be a slave to my food addiction--I didn't want it to get in the way of having a family.

This weekend I am going to Chicago. I have anxiety about eating away from home and not having complete control over my food. This is something I struggle with every time we are invited to a dinner party, take a vacation, have a pot-luck at work . . . I have to remind myself that it is okay. It is a vacation and I am allowed to enjoy myself. I can still make good decisions while I'm gone and even have a treat.

Cycling has been good therapy. I like training and working hard. I've learned how to eat a balanced diet and that food is fuel for our bodies. In other words, eating is not bad or shameful.

Now I have the challenge of teaching my children how to eat. The kids help with the meal planning every week. I talk to them about how food supplies energy to our bodies and keeps us healthy. I emphasize the importance of eating a variety of food.

It's a daily battle. Somedays more-so than others.

[lph]

Thank you, limewave, that was insightful.

I'm curious if cycling also helps by controlling your natural appetite? Or do you have to think equally much about eating the right amount? I ask because I know that in inactive periods (illness, injury, exams) my appetite just doesn't work right and i end up eating just because, without really feeling either hungry or full (and getting pretty pudgy in the process). When I exercise a lot I feel very obviously HUNGRY, and then I feel FULL. And I just read a study recently that showed that exercise does measureably improve appetite.. uh, "precision", for lack of a better word.

Do you find that people don't understand the way you relate to food, or do you feel that many people feel the same way?

Feel free not to answer if I'm being too nosy on a sensitive subject.

[limewave]

I'm curious if cycling also helps by controlling your natural appetite? Or do you have to think equally much about eating the right amount?

Yes and no. If I eat the right combination of nutrition during a ride, I find that I am able to maintain a healthy and appropriate diet. But there are times when I am ravishing, usually later in the day or even the next day. Part of that I think has to do more with wanting to satisfy or assuage the fatigue that I'm feeling more than satisfying hunger.

Exercise and cycling helps with increasing endorphins and reducing stress and anxiety. Being in a better mood, feeling strong and healthy does help control my diet. In that sense, yes it does help.



Do you find that people don't understand the way you relate to food, or do you feel that many people feel the same way?
I don't think most people understand.

I feel constantly judged. We just had Easter which meant lots of candy, big meals with families, lots and lots of food. Last night was a pizza party. I made a healthy dinner that I had before the pizza party and opted to not eat pizza--especially after all the indulgences over the weekend. You would not believe the number of people commenting and judging me because I wouldn't eat the pizza. I tried to be discreet about it, but people pay attention to what other people are eating :( We are very judgmental and concerned about what other people are putting in their bodies--both ways. We judge people for eating the wrong things and then we judge people when opt for a healthier option. It's just one slice of pizza!

[goldfinch]

I think that there are many factors that lead to weight gain but it is undisputed that one of the most predominate factors is your genetic makeup and other aspects of your biology. There are separated twin studies that evidence this factor. A genetic predisposition in a world of plenty can mean fat for a large number of people. I look at the women in my family history. My sisters are round. My niece is round. My grandmothers were round.

Parents of children whose family is fat should work hard to instill habits in the kids that will help them resist overeating and that it might be harder for them then it might be for others to keep weight off.

The drug addiction analogy has truth in it as well. There is evidence that brain receptors (dopamine receptors) which play a key role in drug addiction play a key role in responses to food as obesity approaches.

http://dept.wofford.edu/neuroscience/neuroseminar/pdfspring2006/o3.pdf
http://www.nih.gov/news/health/mar2010/nida-28.htm

Once you are fat and lose the weight it is extremely difficult to keep it off. Not regaining weight may be a fundamentally different problem from why you gained weight in the first place. The fat cells are still there, wanting to be fed. Research on hormone levels after weight loss is still in its infancy but there is evidence that even after a year hormone levels did not go back to the original pre-diet levels. Ghrelin was up (an appetite stimulant) and leptin down (a suppressant). You are driven to eat. There are metabolic differences between me at 103 pounds who used to be 160 and a person whose consistent weight for adulthood was around 103 pounds. If your resiliency is low, maybe your are depressed or injured, it can now become even harder to resist eating and the food itself is rewarding, making you feel a bit better when you are down.

As loathe as people are to admit it, weight gain, loss and maintenance are complicated biological and psychological issues. Where I have beef is when people make it a moral issue, a failing of personal responsibility, a failing of the power of one's will: People who are fat are lazy and lack motivation. This is a moral judgment and not based on any kind of scientific understanding of weight gain and loss. It is circular reasoning as well. I would bet that just about everyone who has lost weight are highly motivated to keep that weight off. Extremely motivated. But unfortunately, desire or "will" alone are not a recipe for success. We need tools.

For me behavioral approaches helped, good old principles of conditioning. For example, if you tend to eat meals when you watch tv you may get hungry just by watching tv. So, break that connection by eating only at the table with the tv off. Or, you may eat mindlessly when food is available. Make it difficult to eat mindlessly by having only food around that requires preparation. Based on data gleaned from the National Weight Loss Registry there are factors which are shared by many who successfully keep the weight off. Number one, they are exercisers. As in an hour a day of exercise. They also keep close track of their weight and what they eat. There are other factors as well. How they lost their weight seems to vary and does not seem to be a significant factor in keeping it off. So, I weigh myself every day an keep a running trend analysis so I can catch small weight gains early. I count and record my calories, even if they are high that day. I exercise religiously. For whatever reason, I don't have a properly functioning weight regulator so I need these tools.

People say it is a lifestyle change. Yes, I suppose it is. It is adopting a lifestyle that a naturally thin person would not have to adopt. It may include having a rigid set of rules about how and when you eat and how much you exercise. It is more than just eating healthy and getting exercise. I have said that you need to be a bit obsessive to go down this path and was criticized for it on Bikeforums. Those who lose weight and keep it off are pushing their bodies to places that is not the norm for them. Given that most people regain their weight a single-minded preoccupation with keeping it off seems necessary.

Whatever the factors that enter into weight gain and loss, I am done blaming myself. All I can do is educate myself on what has worked for other people and try my best.

[goldfinch]

I feel constantly judged. We just had Easter which meant lots of candy, big meals with families, lots and lots of food. Last night was a pizza party. I made a healthy dinner that I had before the pizza party and opted to not eat pizza--especially after all the indulgences over the weekend. You would not believe the number of people commenting and judging me because I wouldn't eat the pizza. I tried to be discreet about it, but people pay attention to what other people are eating :( We are very judgmental and concerned about what other people are putting in their bodies--both ways. We judge people for eating the wrong things and then we judge people when opt for a healthier option. It's just one slice of pizza!

Groups of people are tribal. You are not fitting in. My neighbor ladies at my fall and spring home are constantly pushing treats on me.

[Catrin]

...We judge people for eating the wrong things and then we judge people when opt for a healthier option. It's just one slice of pizza!

Wasn't there a study done recently that focused on this? Food is about more to the human mind than simply fuel, it comes wrapped in all different kinds of packages, some of which comes straight from our family/culture.

As a member of a quite diverse Greek Orthodox parish (many of us are not Greek), I am very careful what I eat before attending dinner at a Greek home (or immigrant household in general). It is very much about hospitality and to not partake of the food offered is an insult, I understand this and I am there for the relationships - not the food. Thankfully, there is a lot of healthy choices in Greek/Arabic and Eastern European traditional dishes - and I start out with quite small portions because I know I won't be allowed to leave the table without seconds...

As far as cycling and nutrition is concerned. My diet was actually pretty healthy for the last 5-6 years when I was still 50-70 pounds heavier than now. It was more about my totally sedentary lifestyle and the wrong percentages of fats/carbs/etc. I pay far more attention to what I eat now because in my weight-loss journey I've learned that if I do not then it becomes easier to justify old comfort foods. As someone else mentioned, once that weight is gone, that diligence has to remain to keep it off. Being older and without a thyroid or reproductive system just makes that even more important. I also am prone to low-blood sugar if I am not careful so, yeah, I will always need to be vigilant in both food choices and exercise.

It helps to not have anything unhealthy around to eat, and I rarely have the budget to eat out - which helps :)

Added: I love what cycling has done to my body (I've lost a LOT of weight since starting 2.5 years ago - most of it in that first year), and my moods. My depression has almost completely disappeared and I am much more positive about me and the world around me. In learning how to fuel for the bike, and reversing diabetes II at the same time, I learned a lot about nutritional choices. Now, if I can just avoid further over-use injuries... :)

[Bethany1]

Food became a problem when I was first married and we didn't make enough money to really eat. It was feed the kids first and then take care of yourself which pretty much meant I wasn't eating much. Then when we did have food it was eat as much as you can because you don't know when your next meal would be. That was about 14 years ago and the mentality is still here. It's a double edged sword on your physical and mental health.

Later when I was diagnosed with epilepsy and bipolar most of the drugs cause weight gain with Depakote being the worst offender. With the highs/lows of bipolar eating has it's own problems. If you are depressed, you either eat to feel better or don't eat at all. If you are on the manic side, you are too busy to eat and only realize it when it's dinnertime.

Cycling has brought it's own food issues and I get torn on continuing to cycle. If you don't have enough food/calories (with the right food) when you start, you bonk. It's a terribly sick feeling and intensely frightening. When I'm done with the ride, there's this overwhelming desire for food as you've just gone through all that energy. When I ride past the BBQ restaurant, I'm dreaming of ribs, mashed potatoes, salad, and corn on the cob and end up going back with DH to inhale food. I've gained weight instead of losing it. Cycling can be physically and emotionally overwhelming. My entire metabolism has changed and no book goes over cycling for heavy people.

On the other hand my blood pressure is down and I'm gaining some better definition on my body. My back and fibromyalgia can handle the ride and there is a sense of accomplishment once you are done. For the first time in years, I'm outside almost every day.

It helps with the depression/mania even though I still get pretty cranky because of my limitations. It's helped with the anxiety of leaving the house and once I realized that my biggest fear of cycling is being stranded, I've been able to work through it. It's made me more independent and more confident.

I just wish I could manage the intense food cravings after the ride. I think because I'm heavier my body's metabolism after a ride is different than someone who doesn't weigh as much. Every book on cycling/nutrition has numbers for skinny people. The caloric intake for someone who is 150 lbs is totally different for someone who is 220. Obviously the food after the ride needs to be as healthy as the food you eat before a ride.

[Trek420]

Cycling has been good therapy. I like training and working hard. I've learned how to eat a balanced diet and that food is fuel for our bodies. In other words, eating is not bad or shameful.

That ^. I think for some there is/may be an addiction to the couch, the screen, the remote, the ever larger big screen TV is like a siren song for some tempting them to the rocks :rolleyes: ...

Some foods are addictive. I've seen friends struggle to give up soda. It's tough, like kicking a heroin addiction not that I'd have any way to know about that.

My thoughts about healthy foods especially here in these United States are complex. Maybe I need to write a cartoon novel or cookbook. I'll try to condense. I'm 56 years young, arguably obese, I used to think "fit but fat" but now really doubling down to lose the weight. I'm a former souse chef, have a love for good, local, sustainable, delicious foods. What I see a lot is this:

Ever been in the supermarket produce aisle or even a farm market and seen folks with that deer in the headlights look? Or had people stop you and ask "What can you do with that?" "Uh, a potato? Ok, here goes, you can ..."

We (and when I say we I mean most Americans) know we should eat food that's made from food but most don't know what to do with it. The food industry (let's call it an industry) has us so removed from food that many don't know what to do with a pear, fennel and a walnut. We don't know how to prep, how to be creative, how you can make quick, fast, easy, affordable meals from real food.

We're losing the kitchen counter lessons of our families. I'm not saying mothers should be home cooking, My dad cooked too. We're losing the lessons of our cultures. Those need to be passed down from family and community, up from the kids, all around.

And let us not forget that many areas of this great country are food wastelands where produce simply is not available. People there are largely poor, busy, working class and there's your friend fast food "gotta buck, you're in luck". Fast food bills itself as the friend of the busy and working poor. Those need to be erased.

The only thing I'd change is the title. It needs to be "Teach everyone about food"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go_QOzc79Uc

[SadieKate]

And I've had his story on my mind. Granted, his case is extreme, and I think very few people are unlucky enough to experience that level of psychic trauma. At the same time, his description of how incredibly hard it was to rely on pure willpower all the time, every day, to stay "normal" in a world where most people around him just... ate, was quite an eye-opener.Like you, I've never been where he is but I do think it might help him to realize that those folks around him who "just... ate" may be also struggling with their willpower and habits. I know many people who've lost a significant amount of weight and you wouldn't know unless they told you.

It's like seeing a person use a handicapped parking spot and thinking "they don't need it!" Just how do you know they don't?

Yes, his case might be extreme but perhaps he should realize that few people "just eat."

[VeganBikeChick]

People say it is a lifestyle change. Yes, I suppose it is. It is adopting a lifestyle that a naturally thin person would not have to adopt. It may include having a rigid set of rules about how and when you eat and how much you exercise. It is more than just eating healthy and getting exercise. I have said that you need to be a bit obsessive to go down this path and was criticized for it on Bikeforums. Those who lose weight and keep it off are pushing their bodies to places that is not the norm for them. Given that most people regain their weight a single-minded preoccupation with keeping it off seems necessary.


What a wonderful post, goldfinch! So insightful! I am in awe in all that you've accomplished, and if I can take just a piece of that knowledge, it would help me so much. Thank you.

[Wahine]

I just wanted to thank lph for starting this thread and for all of your thoughtful contributions.

As someone who deals with overweight people regularly, this thread has given me a lot of insight. It's hard for me sometimes to not get frustrated when I know that a person's back pain/knee pain/hip pain would be so much better, if not disappear if the individual lost some weight. Hearing very candid accounts from your position, will help me help my overweight patients.

Thank you.

[goldfinch]

Like you, I've never been where he is but I do think it might help him to realize that those folks around him who "just... ate" may be also struggling with their willpower and habits. I know many people who've lost a significant amount of weight and you wouldn't know unless they told you.

It's like seeing a person use a handicapped parking spot and thinking "they don't need it!" Just how do you know they don't?

Yes, his case might be extreme but perhaps he should realize that few people "just eat."


Yes, you don't know other people's struggles. And maybe few people just eat. But very few people go from morbid obesity to normal weight and keep it off. Everyone who does that successfully is an extreme case. That struggle is significant and I feel it should not be minimized by saying that everyone has their issues. The physiology of the ex-obese person is different from someone who has always been normal weight and maybe deals a bit with five, or ten extra pounds. I do not even think it is out of line to compare it to drug addiction.

So, my opinion is that it is likely not helpful for him (or for me) to realize few people just eat. I am sorry, but mentally roll my eyes at that kind of statement. Instead, he can acknowledge that his struggle is significant and different and substantially harder than the efforts of those who were never as fat as he was.

This is my opinion, fwiw. I do tend to have rather strong opinions. :)

[limewave]

Yes, you don't know other people's struggles. And maybe few people just eat. But very few people go from morbid obesity to normal weight and keep it off. Everyone who does that successfully is an extreme case. That struggle is significant and I feel it should not be minimized by saying that everyone has their issues. The physiology of the ex-obese person is different from someone who has always been normal weight and maybe deals a bit with five, or ten extra pounds. I do not even think it is out of line to compare it to drug addiction.

That is my big fear! I've managed to keep off 160-170 pounds for 10 years now. But I feel like I'm one misstep from being morbidly obese again. I did go back up to 200 pounds when I was pregnant with my son (that's 200 pounds after I gave birth to him). It was a real struggle to lose weight a second time. My goal now is to get on the scale every day and try to maintain. If I go up 5 pounds, I can correct it before the extra 5 pounds turns into 10, 15 . . . 30.

[goldfinch]

That is my big fear! I've managed to keep off 160-170 pounds for 10 years now. But I feel like I'm one misstep from being morbidly obese again. I did go back up to 200 pounds when I was pregnant with my son (that's 200 pounds after I gave birth to him). It was a real struggle to lose weight a second time. My goal now is to get on the scale every day and try to maintain. If I go up 5 pounds, I can correct it before the extra 5 pounds turns into 10, 15 . . . 30.

The good news is the longer you keep it off the more likely you will continue to keep it off. Data from the National Weight Control Registry indicates that the odds improve after a couple of years of weight maintenance.

What a loss! And ten years of keeping it off! Those who try to get you to eat against the rules you have developed for yourself can stick it! You should join the Weight Control Registry. Your experiences can provide valuable data for researchers. People are eligible after they have maintained at least a 30 pound weight loss over the course of at least one year. http://www.nwcr.ws/

I keep track of my weight daily using the Hackersdiet tools. It keeps a running average for you, which can help you catch slips early. Thirty days of daily data is a pretty robust view of where you are at, whether you are trending up or down or pretty much stable. https://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/HackDiet/

[lph]

I really appreciate the great answers here! I think it is very difficult for someone who has never been more than a little overweight to understand how it feels to live with real obesity. It must be a very real challenge if one has a type of addiction to have to face that addiction several times a day. There's no way of just avoiding food.

We all are hardwired to some extent to eat when there's food available, and to enjoy calorie-rich foods. But most of us who cycle also know the joy of movement, of getting fitter, of feeling your body work well the way it's supposed to. And everybody knows the actual physics of "burn more, eat less". On paper it's so simple. In real life it's obviously hard, otherwise we wouldn't be spending masses of time and money talking about it and inventing strange diets. But I'm also convinced that it's very much harder for some people, whether it's genes, psychology, habits, culture, metabolism or whatever. Willpower can get you only so far for a certain amount of time, after that a lot more things have to be in place to get you through.

[ClockworkOrange]

..........................................Food is an addiction I still struggle with.

I hide food. I'll hide evidence of food I've eaten. Sometimes I'll eat an entire package of cookies, candy, icecream, bread, peanut butter, chips, (fill in the blank) . . . and then be so embarassed and humiliated that I run out to the store to replace the package before anyone finds out. Sometimes during those episodes I get the sensation of 'blacking-out.'

There are times I will eat and continue eating until it is physically impossible for me to put more food in my body. I eat when I'm tired, when I'm stressed, angry, sad, etc.

It's a comfort thing for me. A distraction. A way of shaming myself. Even a way to sabotage myself (I'm not good enough to succeed).

Finally accepting that this was an addiction and coming to terms that I would struggle with food every single day was a turning point for me.

It's a daily battle. Somedays more-so than others.

Utmost respect to you, think many of us can relate to parts of this. :rolleyes:

[sookiesue]

Utmost respect to you, think many of us can relate to parts of this. :rolleyes:

What ClockworkOrange said.

The honesty on this forum is amazing. I love that women feel safe to come here and talk about things so openly.

Thank you, TE women!

[marni]

one of the turning points for me was the acceptance of responsibility for my own life along with a realization that whatever I decided to do was going to be for life, and not just to get to a goal. I had a great deal of support from my family at first, but lately since it is just DH and I, he has gotten very slack about his weight and sometimes brings food into the house that I used to like. Fortunately, over 5 years of slow steady dieting and a very regimented training schedule, I have learned to shed my compulsion to feel like I have any control over his actions, and I have learned to be a bit more flexible with my self so that if I slip, I just get right back on the horse.

It is not easy, but I find it much easier to deal with after five years, and the payback is that I am healthy, my % body fat is within the medically normal range, free from bone, muscle,joint and body pain, and have an incredibly healthy heart and disgustingly normal blood pressure ( for a 50 year old although I am 64) according to my Doctor.

Baby steps, baby steps, and try not to feel too smug when you succeed. Down 125 pounds in five years with another 10 or so to go .

marni

[Susan]

Great thread! Great to read your experiences.
I've lost a signigificant amount of weight and went from obese to the upper end of "normal" BMI over the last few years.

The strange thing about it is that it was and still is so easy on the one hand and so hard on the other:
"All I had to do" is make healthy choices and be active. Eating 3 to 4 meals a day, not eating sweets, picking up cycling, running, HIIT.
And the weight came off.

I still have to think about my food choices every day, every meal. I enjoy being active, and I am very active, but it doesn't regulate my appetite. I am always hungry. I could always eat more. If I have open access to food I shouldn't eat, it will end in a binge. In fact, sometimes I can't avoid binging, so eat unreasonable amounts of vegetables and salad so that the binge won't affect my weight. I have to be alert when I go shopping, because what I have at home, I WILL eat. If I am not at home where I have control over my food choices, I often can't stop eating when I should or eating the wrong things.

The strange thing is that the same people who judged me because of my weight before, mostly family members, keep forcing food at me now, even though they know how I struggled. They often say "now that you have lost all that weight, it won't hurt" or "you can eat what you want because you are so active" - which just isn't true. People often don't want to hear the truth (especially people who struggle with their weight themselves often just want to hear about an easy fix). I have learned to throw out food that I shouldn't eat and to get back on the wagon if I fell off.
But like Limewave, I constantly feel just one step away from regaining my weight.

I think it is clearly an addiction. It was significantly easier to stop smoking than to eat right. It's like being addicted to heroine, just that unlike with heroine, you can't just stop eating. You have to constantly keep the balance between nourishing your body and hurting yourself with food.
Food is so much more complicated than just eating when you are hungry. There are so many occasions where it is a social norm to eat and to eat certain things, to a degree that it can be an insult not to eat.
I think to people who don't have the problem, my struggles to manage foodintake will sound obsessive and unhealthy. And while I am fully aware that my relatioship with food is unhealthy, I have to manage it somehow, and obviously much more restrictive than people with a normal relationship with food.

[lph]

I was thinking that one of the most interesting points in this discussion is how not only obese people have a difficult relationship with food. Normal-weight people can be obsessed with food too, and I don't mean this in a judgemental way, just that for some people more than others it is necessary to pay extreme attention to what they eat and how they eat, to maintain a healthy weight. Obesity just makes it more visible to others.

It's not that I'm incapable of binging, and I do need to keep up certain good habits to eat well over time, but once I have those habits I do "just... eat". If I eat something out of the norm like a very rich restaurant meal it usually affects my appetite, I might feel queasy or not want to eat for a long time, it doesn't trigger a desire for a lot more of the same type of food and I don't need to actively choose to eat less the following day. But this is very closely tied to activity and exercise for me.

I wish there was a lot more research done on appetite. Hunger is a very strong feeling, and almost impossible to ignore. Now that most of us have unlimited access to food we need to know a lot more about how to balance our natural desire to eat while it's there with the more subtle signals of "enough".

[goldfinch]

I wish there was a lot more research done on appetite. Hunger is a very strong feeling, and almost impossible to ignore. Now that most of us have unlimited access to food we need to know a lot more about how to balance our natural desire to eat while it's there with the more subtle signals of "enough".

There is quite a bit of research. As a formerly obese person I especially was interested in how hormones which regulate appetite go way out of whack when you lose weight, with not enough of the hormone which suppresses appetite and too much of the hormone which increases appetite. Then there is the effect of behavior conditioning on appetite. If you eat in certain circumstances when that circumstance occurs you might feel hungry. Food and the triggers that stimulate you to eat both elevate dopamine levels in the reward areas of the brain. If you have reduced dopaminergic activity in the brain you may overeat to compensate. A genetic deficiency in this brain chemical may very well drive you to addictive behavior from overeating to drug addiction and even gambling. Interestingly, this is often reversed in gastric bypass patients. Bypass is a far more effective way to lose weight and keep it off than a diet, as drastic as it is.

Certain types of food can drive the appetite up, specifically, sweets and starches. Insulin is important in regulation of appetite.

We know a lot about appetite, we just don't know enough about how to deal with it. :) Right now, bypass may be the best bet for the obese, risks and all. There are some promising avenues of research that might lead to better solutions. Yes, there even may be a pill someday. :) There are some things one can experiment with to see if it helps, such as:

--knowing the triggers which stimulate you to eat and break that connection.
--find new sources of pleasure and reward. Exercise may fall in this category. Good social networks of like minded people certainly are sources of pleasure and reward.
--eat more protein, less carbs
--High dose fish oil? Maybe increases dopamine and dopamine receptors

My hunch for me is that I am dopamine deficient. I struggle with controlling eating. I also struggle with controlling my shopping. I have to have a rigid set of rules about my shopping. For example, I keep a separate credit card for shopping and pay that card from a separate bank account. I fund that account twice a year in a pre-determined amount. That is all I can spend on pleasure shopping.

[Catrin]

Goldfinch - interesting comment about the dopomine...back when I was still on anti-depressants (stopped in 2000), the only medication that actually worked for me worked focused on dopomine (not the more usual serotonin). I still deal with major spending issues - though I had it under control until I discovered biking :o

At this point controlling eating is much less challenging - as long as I track everything, I am lost if I stop that - I think it helps provide accountability. As a single woman who lives alone that really helps. It also helps knowing how much it cost me to go from size 23 to size 6 in clothing - and I can't afford to go the other direction. I got rid of ALL of my "big" clothing.

At least the spending is now under control - there isn't much left free to spend :o I like your solution and may adopt it.

[SadieKate]

I was thinking that one of the most interesting points in this discussion is how not only obese people have a difficult relationship with food. Normal-weight people can be obsessed with food too, and I don't mean this in a judgemental way, just that for some people more than others it is necessary to pay extreme attention to what they eat and how they eat, to maintain a healthy weight. Obesity just makes it more visible to others.This is exactly what I was talking about. You just can't know what other's internal struggles are. And this goes for any goal each of us might have.

[lph]

There is quite a bit of research. As a formerly obese person I especially was interested in how hormones which regulate appetite go way out of whack when you lose weight, with not enough of the hormone which suppresses appetite and too much of the hormone which increases appetite. Then there is the effect of behavior conditioning on appetite.

I should have written "I wish I knew more about research on appetite". And now I do :p Very interesting stuff, goldfinch. Especially the gastric bypass bit (that was the surgery term I was looking for), and the effect on appetite. A bit scary too. Surgery is a drastic measure and has it's own dangers.

[GLC1968]

So, my opinion is that it is likely not helpful for him (or for me) to realize few people just eat. I am sorry, but mentally roll my eyes at that kind of statement. Instead, he can acknowledge that his struggle is significant and different and substantially harder than the efforts of those who were never as fat as he was.


Perhaps it's not helpful for him (or for you) to know that other people don't 'just eat' but it IS extremely helpful to acknowledge that this is the case for many 'regular' sized people. There are those of us with fairly extreme food issues who never got to the extreme obese situation. I realize it's different, but I don't think that it should be dismissed as eye-roll worthy, if you know what I mean.

I've been overweight (if sometimes only slightly so) my whole life and I have quite extreme food issues. Bingeing, purging, hiding food, replacing food that I've eaten, eating in private, hiding packaging, hoarding, obsessing about what others eat, obsessing about what I eat, eating until I was in physical pain and even blacking out. I also consider myself 'normal', highly well-adjusted and quite confident in most areas. And yet I've always hated my relationship with food. How I never got more than just tipping the scales into obese is beyond me. I think having always been very athletic and living with a thin family has kept my overall weight gain at bay (for the most part) despite severe food issues.

That doesn't mean that just because I don't have to struggle to fit into an airplane seat that my struggles with food are any less severe than my aunt who was morbidly obese. I was just really good at 'hiding' and internalizing it because it wasn't as outwardly obvious.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I was lucky in that I was always athletic and lived an active life, so I managed to keep the worst of the actual weight gain at bay. I have cycled up and down the scale gaining and losing the same 40 or so pounds multiple times over the course of my life. And again, I have always hated my relationship with food. I hated the power it had over me (or so it felt). I hated the shame. I hated the physical pain. I hated constantly thinking about it, constantly desiring it and never ever actually feeling GOOD about it.

Conversations like this one actually really help me these days. It helps me to remember how I used to feel and how important it is for me to stick to my new habits. I've made such a huge change in my life that sometimes I forget what it felt like to be controlled by food (no, I'm not exaggerating) and how freeing it is to be done with that. The bad habits can creep back in when I am not thinking about it, so I do think it's important to remember and to be ever on guard.

[goldfinch]

Perhaps it's not helpful for him (or for you) to know that other people don't 'just eat' but it IS extremely helpful to acknowledge that this is the case for many 'regular' sized people. There are those of us with fairly extreme food issues who never got to the extreme obese situation. I realize it's different, but I don't think that it should be dismissed as eye-roll worthy, if you know what I mean.

I've been overweight (if sometimes only slightly so) my whole life and I have quite extreme food issues. Bingeing, purging, hiding food, replacing food that I've eaten, eating in private, hiding packaging, hoarding, obsessing about what others eat, obsessing about what I eat, eating until I was in physical pain and even blacking out. I also consider myself 'normal', highly well-adjusted and quite confident in most areas. And yet I've always hated my relationship with food. How I never got more than just tipping the scales into obese is beyond me. I think having always been very athletic and living with a thin family has kept my overall weight gain at bay (for the most part) despite severe food issues.

That doesn't mean that just because I don't have to struggle to fit into an airplane seat that my struggles with food are any less severe than my aunt who was morbidly obese. I was just really good at 'hiding' and internalizing it because it wasn't as outwardly obvious.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I was lucky in that I was always athletic and lived an active life, so I managed to keep the worst of the actual weight gain at bay. I have cycled up and down the scale gaining and losing the same 40 or so pounds multiple times over the course of my life. And again, I have always hated my relationship with food. I hated the power it had over me (or so it felt). I hated the shame. I hated the physical pain. I hated constantly thinking about it, constantly desiring it and never ever actually feeling GOOD about it.

Conversations like this one actually really help me these days. It helps me to remember how I used to feel and how important it is for me to stick to my new habits. I've made such a huge change in my life that sometimes I forget what it felt like to be controlled by food (no, I'm not exaggerating) and how freeing it is to be done with that. The bad habits can creep back in when I am not thinking about it, so I do think it's important to remember and to be ever on guard.

Thanks you for your response. My comparison was with those who maybe struggled with a few pounds here and there or would push away a second helping because they shouldn't have it, not with an eating disorder. And I agree, you can't tell by looking at someone what there struggles are. Bulimia and anorexia are extremely difficult and life threatening issues as well. I just do not want to minimize the extreme difficulty it is for people to deal with obesity by saying that everyone has issues.

[GLC1968]

I just do not want to minimize the extreme difficulty it is for people to deal with obesity by saying that everyone has issues.

Oh absolutely not, and I totally agree. I just think perhaps (and this is me putting my experiences into the equation, of course) that it may help some who are obese and struggling to know that they are not alone. That even if someone is not extremely overweight, they may still be able to relate and could very well be 'on your side' in terms of dealing with food issues. I don't think anyone wants to minimize the struggle at all.

I know that it helped me to learn that a thin, athletic coworker of mine was not 'naturally' thin and that even though she looked really lean and healthy, she was only that way because she planned out her meals and carefully tracked her nutrition and activity. It was inspiring in many ways to know that I could be her one day if I was willing to put in the effort that clearly she was making. And honestly, it made me happy to learn that despite what I originally thought, she couldn't eat just anything she wanted either! :o

Oh, and just to clarify, I was never diagnosed with any eating disorders. I would never have admitted any of my issues to a doctor at any point in my life (even now). No way. That's admitting to a weakness and I don't have weaknesses. ;)

[SadieKate]

+1 on ALL of the above. :D

[Wahine]

I continue to be fascinated by this thread. There is so much insight here.

My situation and past experience is very different from what most of you are discussing here. But the more I think about it, the more it makes me wonder about when and how such seriuos food issues start. Mostly because I never want to end up in that boat.

I haven't been that active on the forum for the last few years, but those of you who remember me from before may remember that I was a fairly serious Ironman athlete. One of the interesting things about Ironman is that when you are training that much, you eat a ton. In retrospect I think I was actually eating too much a lot of the time during the week. On long workout weekends, it's pretty hard to overeat. I never lost a lot of weight training for IM. In fact sometimes I would put weight on. But I never worried about it, I just assumed that my body would adjust and I would eat what I needed.

Fast forward to about 1.5 years ago. I put on about 10 lbs after IM, during my recovery season, and it never really came off last summer. I was just riding mostly. This winter comes and I put on another 5 lbs. So come January, I was the heaviest I've ever been and activity modification was not doing the job. You can only increase your activity level so much when you're already really active to begin with. So I decided that I would start tracking my caloric expenditure and intake very closely and try to run an appropriate 20% deficit per day.

What an eye opener. I've lost 10 lbs and I have another 5 to go to get back to my fighting weight so to speak. I am amazed at how skewed my perception of what a healthy portion size was and how little I actually burn on that run or ride. But what's getting me now is that I do not want to be obsessed with what I eat. I don't want to feel like I have to record every little thing. It just doesn't seem psychologically healthy to be preoccupied by it. I want food to be joyful and not conrtolling.

So what I've done is kept track of my eating and exercise during the week, but on the weekends, I let it go. I'm not doing as well with my weight loss as I was, but I think I'm OK with that, because I don't want to be obsessed with it.

I'm not fearful that I will go down the obesity road, or that I will end up with an eating disorder. But I wonder if that's how it starts for some people.

[GLC1968]

But the more I think about it, the more it makes me wonder about when and how such seriuos food issues start. Mostly because I never want to end up in that boat.


From my experience, I think that food issues (the severe ones) start well outside of the kitchen.

I know that for me, my issues started with social and familial pressures. I wasn't who I felt I should be (or who I felt others wanted me to be) so I blamed my weight and therefore what I ate. From there I 'learned' to be ashamed of eating and of my body. Food was at fault, but it was also a way of punishing myself for not being in control. Add in a personality that was fairly obsessive about stuff and my issues grew. THEN, you throw in the entire 'low fat' concept that was touted in the 80's, fake non-food additives and then the convenience of highly processed fast food (either at restaurants or in 'snack' form) and a busy life and it was a vicious, vicious circle.

Anyway, I think it is a combination of factors. When I was younger, I had a good friend who was a severe anorexic in remission. We used to have lots of long talks about this stuff and I remember being totally stunned that we had so much in common but that we'd had so totally different outcomes. I remember thinking the exact same thing when I had a heart to heart with my obese aunt. We obviously share some of the same DNA (she was my dad's sister) but I remember being shocked that we had similar food, personality and body image issues. She had the added factors of being inactive and having a food pushing mother so her outcome was different from mine.

I would think that it may be possible that starting down the obsessive road of tracking every little thing and calorie might be a trigger for bigger problems IF there are already underlying or unresolved issues. I don't think that just getting crazy about calories (or points or whatever) is necessarily going to do it on it's own.

[channlluv]

There's a lot I'd like to share here, but can't right now. You all are mostly familiar with my weight struggles, though, and yes, I agree it's an addiction, or something close.

I just wanted to add, though, that for someone like me, being included in a group of women who define themselves as athletes is very empowering.

Roxy

[Crankin]

GLC, I am that thin, athletic woman you never thought had to struggle with eating. If I wasn't as rigid as Goldfinch, I'd weigh at least 25 pounds more, even with a good level of activity. Like Wahine, I get sick of being obsessive about this, and every Tuesday and Thursday, when I leave for the gym at 5:15 AM, I tell my DH "I get sick of being healthy sometimes." I do loosen up on the weekends, too, but so far I've been able to stay within the 2 lb. range I set for myself. So, while I go out and enjoy my food, I don't throw all caution to the wind.
I am going to have my first long riding weekend this weekend, 3 days, as it's a holiday here on Monday. I know I will be ravenous.

[goldfinch]

GLC, I am that thin, athletic woman you never thought had to struggle with eating. If I wasn't as rigid as Goldfinch, I'd weigh at least 25 pounds more, even with a good level of activity. Like Wahine, I get sick of being obsessive about this, and every Tuesday and Thursday, when I leave for the gym at 5:15 AM, I tell my DH "I get sick of being healthy sometimes." I do loosen up on the weekends, too, but so far I've been able to stay within the 2 lb. range I set for myself. So, while I go out and enjoy my food, I don't throw all caution to the wind.
I am going to have my first long riding weekend this weekend, 3 days, as it's a holiday here on Monday. I know I will be ravenous.

Unfortunately, I think we have to be obsessive.

[azfiddle]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, experiences and knowledge here.

I think the hormone and fat cell research is fascinating and really quite discouraging in some ways. I lost about 38 pounds starting 3 1/2 years ago, but have 5 lbs back on and am really struggling to get back to my goal again. Knowing I have to eat less or work harder than someone else who is my weight, simply because I used to be more overweight seems incredibly unfair! (I just want to kill those extra fat cells!)

I have had the yo-yo dieting experience quite a few times- but have kept much more off this time and for longer. Comments and attitudes of other people can be quite challenging. For example- after losing a significant amount but not being at goal, people often said "You don't need to lose any more weight". Or when my "best friend" got irritated about me and my food choices and finally admitted that she was jealous. At one point, only about half way to my goal she actually tried to tell me that I should stop trying to lose any more weight because I would probably gain it back anyway.

Anyway- this is a great discussion, and Goldfinch, thank you for sharing your knowledge so articulately.

[goldfinch]

Unfortunately, moderate still feels extreme to me and constant means having to be singleminded if not obsessive. So, normal, as in occurring naturally, isn't a term that fits for me.

I agree that building muscle will help the metabolism. And, exercise, whether it is building muscle or doing cardio, is psychologically rewarding because it is active and can give you a dose of endorphins. Exercise and endorphins are linked to feelings of well being.

Better living through chemistry. :)

[never2late]

There's a lot I'd like to share here, but can't right now. You all are mostly familiar with my weight struggles, though, and yes, I agree it's an addiction, or something close.

I just wanted to add, though, that for someone like me, being included in a group of women who define themselves as athletes is very empowering.

Roxy


It definitely is empowering to be a part of this thread, in reading the struggles and challenges so many have overcome and/or still battling. I, too, could share much about overcoming DECADES long eating addictions...I've finally come through to the other side, but not without living the shame.

I think it is absolutely wonderful that this forum exists to nurture others.

[emily_in_nc]

Unfortunately, I think we have to be obsessive.

I really think you've hit on it. And I think that's why I've gained weight since moving to Belize and can't seem to get on top of it and just lose the few friggin' lbs. I'd like to lose: I've stopped being obsessive about food. There is so much new to enjoy here, food-wise, restaurant-wise, social-wise, and drink-wise (not just adult beverages but even lovely fresh fruit juices/smoothies), that even with all the exercise I do, I no longer deny myself nearly as many of those pleasures as I used to.

Is it worth 5 lbs? I'm still not sure. I loved being at the low end of my weight range, feeling good in a bikini, and having my clothes fit me loosely, rather than I how I feel right now (chubby). On the other hand, I am enjoying being a bit less of a control freak around food than I've been since I decided not to be "fat and forty", headed back to the gym, and changed my way of eating so that I could lose the 15 lbs. I'd gradually put on in my 30s. I lived in a rather obsessive way around food for 10 years. I will probably have to get back to that if I am ever going to get back to the weight I'm happiest at.

Sigh...

[goldfinch]

You've had a major lifestyle shift in the last couple of years. It will take time for the mind to shift along with it. Just think moderate and calm. Eventually, it is possible to change perception. It is also important for the body to become adjusted to its current weight. It fights us after weight-loss. This, unfortunately, is normal for most people.



Whether the body ever really does adjust, and it is not clear that it does, I am content with my discontent. The older I get, the better I deal well with ambiguity.

[Catrin]

You've had a major lifestyle shift in the last couple of years. It will take time for the mind to shift along with it. Just think moderate and calm. Eventually, it is possible to change perception...

THIS! Even though I've lost a total of 80 pounds since my heaviest (and 50 of that in 2010-2011), in my head I still "see" myself as fat. I know what size I wear, I get people's reactions who haven't seen me in a couple of years - but that internal image is still there. I think it is finally starting to moderate, but still... It takes time & I begin to wonder if I will ever really be there and all I can see in the mirror is that excess body fat that I still have - but that is normal I think (hope). So Goldfinch, I hear exactly what you are saying.

Ambiguity isn't a bad thing - thankfully for me :)

It DOES help to be able to physically do things I once thought impossible for ME to do ;)

[Owlie]

THIS! Even though I've lost a total of 80 pounds since my heaviest (and 50 of that in 2010-2011), in my head I still "see" myself as fat. I know what size I wear, I get people's reactions who haven't seen me in a couple of years - but that internal image is still there. I think it is finally starting to moderate, but still... It takes time & I begin to wonder if I will ever really be there and all I can see in the mirror is that excess body fat that I still have - but that is normal I think (hope). So Goldfinch, I hear exactly what you are saying.

Ambiguity isn't a bad thing - thankfully for me :)

It DOES help to be able to physically do things I once thought impossible for ME to do ;)

That. I've never been significantly overweight, and while I'm only a little lighter than I had been in high school (where I was rather squishy), that still follows me around. I wore baggy t-shirts to hide the muffin top....and most of the rest of my clothing was a size larger than necessary. It has taken me a while to be able to buy clothing that actually fits following a weight "redistribution".

I'm trying to remove a few pounds at the moment. I want to stay away from the calorie counting and weighing and tracking every.little.thing. I tend to be obsessive and a perfectionist in other aspects of my life (except housekeeping!), and I know myself well enough to know that that would be a bad road to go down.

[lph]

Whether the body ever really does adjust, and it is not clear that it does, I am content with my discontent. The older I get, the better I deal well with ambiguity.

This was a nice point.

I've been thinking about how to handle the gap between focusing to get what you want, and not letting that want take over your life. I realize that for someone struggling to control their weight, tracking intake is essential, maybe for life. But I also realize that if I had set myself a specific weight goal and started tracking my progress I would go from relaxed about food to pretty obsessive in no time at all. BTDT, with other goals. And I would probably not be content until I'd reached that goal, while if I hadn't had a specific goal I would be content within some kind of fluctuation, where I "felt" fitter or leaner or my clothes fit better. And time spent being not content has its price too. Am I making sense here?

Actually this goes for all goals. The more specific, the more black and white it becomes - either you make it and are satisfied, or you don't - boo. But when it comes to health, it's not like one certain spot is the only healthy place to be, it's a sliding scale, where one end is worse and the other end is better.

Any thoughts?

[Wahine]

Actually this goes for all goals. The more specific, the more black and white it becomes - either you make it and are satisfied, or you don't - boo. But when it comes to health, it's not like one certain spot is the only healthy place to be, it's a sliding scale, where one end is worse and the other end is better.

Any thoughts?

So this is a little off topic but this is a problem in my field. We are constantly being told to make clear and measureable goals with patients to trake progress. I'm all for tracking progress, but I think it's really disheartening when I make a goal with a patient like "knee will bend 120 degrees in 3 weeks time" and we don't get there for some very valid reason. Or maybe for no tangible reason at all, maybe it's just the way a person is built or wired. Then the patient gets upset because we didn't meet the goal, it often affects motivation negatively...

So I really like the idea of not putting such strict parameters on goals. For some people. I guess it might be very important for others.

[shootingstar]

So I really like the idea of not putting such strict parameters on goals. For some people. I guess it might be very important for others.


+1 If I put super strict parameters on goals for myself, I would be completely demotivated for the times I couldn't reach the goal (temporarily).

Sometimes it's better I practice better "living" health-wise regularily and temporarily "forget" about tracking myself towards a certain "goal".

[GLC1968]

I have found that multi layered goals are effective. Have a goal I know I can reach, have one that is a bit of a reach and then have one that is a stretch but that really motivates me and even scares me a little. Then, for each level, create two goals. One that is clear and measurable and one that is slightly more subjective.

While I think that having a defined time frame is important ( i.e. a point at which to do an eval of your progress), having specific parameters to meet is less critical. I mean, the point of goals is to make improvements, so if the goals you are making don't work for you, then there is no reason for making them. Everyone is motivated differently, so not all goals can be structured the same way.

[GLC1968]

Oh and goals should be both performance and outcome based. For example, one should be something you have control over (attending spin class twice a week for all of May), and one should be more outcome related (lose 4 lbs of body fat or bench press 100 lbs). By including both, even if your outcome falls short, you can still feel accomplished about making the performance goal.

[Wahine]

Oh and goals should be both performance and outcome based. For example, one should be something you have control over (attending spin class twice a week for all of May), and one should be more outcome related (lose 4 lbs of body fat or bench press 100 lbs). By including both, even if your outcome falls short, you can still feel accomplished about making the performance goal.

I really like this. I never thought of categorizing the goals this way and I think it would work really well for a lot of my clients.

[limewave]

This weekend I traveled alone and met up with some friends. I sat by a stranger on the train. At one point I pulled out a snack and was munching away. She made the comment how she can't eat between meals or she gains too much weight, "I'm not naturally thin like you are."

If she only knew . . .

I ate way too much over the weekend! We went to the Chocolate Bar at The Peninsula (I highly recommend this!!!) and had a bucket of Beignets at The Grand Luxe. It was nice to have some special treats that I would never allow myself to have at home :) I plan on doing a 2-day cleanse--nothing but whole foods and green smoothies. After I eat like I did over the weekend, my old habits and addictions are strong. Putting myself on a cleanse helps my body flush the toxins and then I will start naturally craving healthier foods again.

[beccaB]

I either read or heard about a theory that people have some "cave-man" type habits that have not evolved out of us yet. Back in the day when food was sometimes hard to come by, people would eat a lot to get their fill because it might not be there tomorrow. I can equate that with having teenagers in the house. If I don't eat that ice cream now, it won't be there tomorrow. Did I need that ice cream, or was I even really hungry? Likely not. But at least I got some and there will be less for those pesky teenagers! I think this would explain a lot of overeating habits, although obesity is far more complicated than just that.

[OakLeaf]

That's one thing that my mom's nutritionist recommended to her, and she feels that it's worked. It was issues from her childhood much more than evolutionary stuff - but she had it in her subconscious that she might never get chocolate again. Now, she allows herself one piece every day. Her psyche is assured of a continuous supply. And she doesn't binge on it like she used to.

[GLC1968]

I had similar competition for food when I was growing up, too. Between my bottomless pit of a brother and a father who could eat his own bodyweight in food multiple times a day (ok, not quite, but I think he certainly enjoyed trying!), I also felt like I had to 'compete' for food. I never really thought of that but I would bet that's how my habit of hiding food started. I know I definitely used to hide my Halloween candy from my little brother!

Interesting.

[beccaB]

I have to hide certain food products. It's like living in a dorm here!

[Wahine]

I either read or heard about a theory that people have some "cave-man" type habits that have not evolved out of us yet. Back in the day when food was sometimes hard to come by, people would eat a lot to get their fill because it might not be there tomorrow. I can equate that with having teenagers in the house. If I don't eat that ice cream now, it won't be there tomorrow. Did I need that ice cream, or was I even really hungry? Likely not. But at least I got some and there will be less for those pesky teenagers! I think this would explain a lot of overeating habits, although obesity is far more complicated than just that.

It's also been theorized that this is why we tend to gravitate toward food laden with fat and sugar, it was where you got your most calories and quickly stored energy in a system where there may not be food tomorrow.

I definitely have some "resource guarding" issues. That's what they call it when dogs are overly protective of food/toys. It comes from being in a family of 5 kids where if you didn't eat fast enough, you didn't get seconds. Fortunately, there just wasn't any junk food to speak of in the house like that, so I've never been protective of "treats". But you should see how quickly I can eat a meal. We had rules about special foods being shared so I don't think the same reactions kick in around those foods.

[OakLeaf]

I justify hiding food because DH is inactive and prediabetic. :rolleyes: In my head when I want sweets I don't want to encourage him. :o

[Crankin]

Wow, I can't imagine having to hoard my food because siblings would take it! I guess there's some advantage to having a sibling almost 11 years younger...
I did on occasion have to label my lunches made for work, or other things I bought just for me, from my kids. Usually, there was a label on the bag that said something like, "Eat this, or die, Love, Mom."

[Owlie]

It's also been theorized that this is why we tend to gravitate toward food laden with fat and sugar, it was where you got your most calories and quickly stored energy in a system where there may not be food tomorrow.


Yep. The idea is that sweet things aren't likely to be poisonous, fat has a high calorie to mass ratio, and salt, while essential, is not all that easy to find out there, hence the attraction of salt licks and potato chips.

I store sweets--it takes me for freaking ever to finish them, sometimes to the point where I forget I have them. Some of it I think is rooted in the fact that we very rarely had sweets in the house when I was growing up. Neither of my parents are dessert people, and we only had chocolates/candy in the house a few times a year: Halloween, Easter, and whenever either of my grandmothers sent a box of stuff. My sister did the opposite--she used to wolf down chocolate bars (the 3oz Cadbury ones) in one sitting. And then she'd steal mine, so I hid them...and forgot about them.
Of course, I'm the one with the "weight problem.":rolleyes:

[Skip]

Hi,

I usually just lurk around these boards but I really liked the discussion going on in this thread and wanted to jump in : )

Someone mentioned the origin of food issues a while back and I was thinking how the everyone-sit-down family dinner is supposedly disappearing and how that "interrupts" healthy meals. The busy-busy-busy culture of today creates a lack of appreciation for the food we eat, so we keep eating because our brains don't get a chance to catch up with our stomachs.

From what a lot of others have posted, families can be as much of a problem as a strength. Eating too much because of being pushed more or eating too fast b/c you might not get some (I know this one: if you don't get something before my brother, you don't get any. Boys. ::rolls eyes:: ) To those who have had such long-time and complex struggles with food and weight, do you find that family meals (whether during childhood/adolescence or adulthood/parenthood) help you or do they challenge you?

I realize this is a very personal question, so feel free not to answer if it's uncomfortable : ) I only recently started tracking what I eat as an experiment and I'm amazed at what we regularly have around.

[jezbael]

Great discussion. Thoughtful points. Courageous confessions. :)

I've struggled with food/eating/weight my whole life. I took a turn for the "healthy" about 10 years ago and very slowly, started replacing bad habits for healthier ones.

At one point I got crazy frustrated, because I had changed so much, lost a bunch of weight, but was still hungry and craving almost all the time. I felt like I was fighting a losing battle.

The most compassionate words came from my naturopath who said, "Let's see if we can get your body working better so that your efforts have a fighting chance". We targeted my thyroid functioning, which my GP repeatedly dismissed as a problem. That's helped. But I still fight.

I also remember reading a study where cocaine-addicted rats were given sugar water. After a very short time (days? weeks?) the rats chose the sugar water over cocaine. Sugar lights up the pleasure centre in our brains stronger than cocaine.

So many factors to consider, way beyond mere willpower.

[lph]

Welcome to the discussion, and welcome to TE, Skip! :)

I think establishing good eating habits early can be a lot more important than we generally think, not just a good idea but crucial to determining how we think of food as adults for years to come. In that sense how families eat together does play a big role.

My grandfather had painful stomach ulcers for most of his life. He suffered from stress and wolfed down his food, mainly because he grew up in a super-authoritarian household where his father ate very fast, and no-one could continue eating after he was finished. :eek:

[OakLeaf]

Really good article (https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/25/dining/a-child-offers-plan-on-portion-control-for-dieters.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&src=dayp&pagewanted=all) about learning healthy eating and identifying food issues on the family level. If they enlisted any professional help, they don't mention it in the story.

With the caveat that I haven't read the book in decades, the old classic Fat is a Feminist Issue (http://www.amazon.com/Fat-Feminist-Issue-Susie-Orbach/dp/0883659875) was a huge revelation to me when I first read it. It's body image positive but also identifies some of the many issues that keep people fat when they don't want to be.

[limewave]

Skip, good question.

Growing up overweight and eventually becoming morbidly obese, I am very sensitive about the family meal.

My husband works late every night. I had tried making a traditional meal (meat, potato, pastas, bread, casseroles, etc) for the kids, but they are picky and won't eat it. I was afraid to eat most of what I made myself because if I started eating pasta I knew I wouldn't be able to stop. It was a mess. The "family dinner" caused a lot of anxiety and I would end up binging. DH would come home from work at 10 PM and "not feel like a big meal" and eat 3 bowls of cereal instead. :(

I've come up with a solution that works for us. We don't sit down for a family dinner. However, the kids are involved with meal planning. Each week the kids plan a dinner: they choose 2 vegetables (1 green and 1 colorful), a main dish, and a dessert (fruit parfaits, apple slices and cinnamon). It's not unusual for the kids dinner to be what we call "the mix:" assortment of fresh cut veggies, fresh cut fruit, a TB of a natural PB for dipping, and a few small slices of cheese. Sometimes they even pick a "Big Salad" for dinner :)

This works well for me too as I tend to eat a big breakfast but like a light dinner--a salad, bowl of soup, etc. I make certain things for DH and package them in single servings stored in the freezer. Sometimes I'll grill for him at night, but we keep it simple. There's always a salad and fresh cut veggies in the fridge--everyone is eating better.

Dinner isn't the main event in our family. We "refuel and nourish" our bodies so we can go play! Every night after dinner we do a family activity: biking, soccer, walks, playground, games, etc. That's how we get in our quality time.

Extended family meals are an entirely different story . . . I hate them. If I bring my own healthy alternatives I get judgmental looks and comments. I can't stand being around a spread of food all day, its too tempting. I just have to get through the day . . .

[Crankin]

The family dinner worked well for my family, both when I was a kid and when my own kids were growing up. My dad and my DH both travelled during the week, when I was young and when my kids were in younger. So, the situation was similar in that the "whole" family was not often there for dinner during the week. I did exactly what my mom did: we had sit down dinners every night, no different than if my DH had been there. We ate in a healthy way, even then, compared to other families, though not quite as much as now. We never had fried food in the house, ate a lot of chicken and fish, and the kids always ate breakfast. We did have desserts, but I just stayed away from that, most of the time. If I felt like going out to eat, I took the kids, especially as they got older. We did go to fast food places at times, but it was always a treat, not a replacement for dinner on most nights. I always felt that they needed to be exposed to all kinds of food and restaurants. Both of them are serious foodies as adults and both enjoy cooking.
One of the reasons I hated the few years my kids were doing youth baseball is that it interfered with our family dinner time. I did not like having to eat at 8 PM when they were younger, nor did I want to feed my kids hot dogs in the car, as my friends did. Well, this issue resolved itself when DS #2 decided he hated baseball. Once he got into cycling, the emphasis was on healthy eating, all around.
Food has always been important in my life, in my family, etc, but not in an unhealthy way. My mom was very health conscious for someone of her generation and was a fabulous cook. My brother is also a great cook and he just bought his first home and is heavily into growing his own veggies in his garden.

[goldfinch]

Family meals growing up were around the table and was a wonderful family time. We would talk and talk. We would make up stories, often going around the table, each person adding to the story. Fun times!

The food was typical 1950-60s fare. Meat, potatoes and overcooked vegetables. :) Food wasn't the important part and I don't recall anyone wolfing down their food.

I became obese, as did my sisters. My brother is skinny. He has the worst eating habits as far as quality of food choices (He is autistic and would eat the same thing day in an day out if given the chance. He won't eat vegetables or fruit.)

[Skip]

Thanks, lph! ::waves::

Thank you for the article link, Oakleaf, I enjoyed reading it. The book looks pretty interesting too, I will have to look for it next time I'm at the library!

I really like the idea of re-starting one's relationship with food in general, instead of just following the "is it healthy" route. One of the concerns I had when I started tracking what I ate was that I would eventually get caught up in number-crunching the calories of each meal instead of focusing on what the types of food I eat does for my body. I'm sure many people don't always realize what their bodies are capable of, especially when they are properly fuelled. And cycling is certainly one of the best ways to reverse that!

Thank you for the answers, limewave, Crankin, and goldfinch. I think it's great to see the differences in how meals and family-time are viewed because I don't think it's something a lot of people consciously think of. Like in the article Oakleaf linked to, I like how your families are involved in the process of the meal, not just eating it. I think it says a lot to see how you all try and establish a good mentality towards food for your family.

Jezbael, when I was cleaning houses I dropped about 15 pounds (from an already healthy weight) in a very short amount of time and I was starving all the time. I wasn't comfortable at all unless I was being active or eating. After quitting that job, I knew I was going to gain some weight back, but it still felt very uncomfortable when that happened and it's very hard to try an unsee what I was like even though I'm at the same weight from when I started cleaning houses.

[Serendipity]

Occasional poster here! This is an amazing thread with so many thought-provoking comments.

As a person that, at 54, has been challenged for many years to maintain a healthy weight/lifestyle with varying degrees of success, I continue to be baffled by a couple of things:
- food seems to be the only addiction that others (friends, relatives, even strangers) feel free to judge and comment on. Rarely do I hear comments about smokers, people’s consumption of alcohol or drugs, but it seems okay to comment/judge perceived overeating or unhealthy eating – much like limewave’s earlier comments.
- It’s the only addiction that one has to learn to live with in the sense that you have to continue eating. For example, I quit smoking many years ago. While it was difficult, the situation was straightforward – I quit or I didn’t – I didn’t have to figure out how to have one or two cigarettes and not go off the deep end. While I’m not suggesting that living with any addiction is easy, with food obviously you have to continue to eat to survive. It is a never-ending challenge to satisfy that need without succumbing to cravings, temptation, etc. etc.

Food for thought (pun intended).

[Pax]

Wonderful thread!!

A few thoughts to share: I grew up in a household with parents who had lived through the depression, and a military father who had served in many Asian countries where he "saw children eating out of trash cans and starving in gutters". This translated to the "clean plate club" mentality at our dinner table where you were required to finish the food on your plate regardless of appetite. This was never an issue when we were kids as we were intensely active.

It wasn't until I was injured as a firefighter that I started to put on weight, I kept "cleaning my plate" but wasn't active enough to burn off all the excess calories. Going from extreme activity to sedentary overnight wreaked havoc on my metabolism, and additionally to help alleviate the disappointment of losing my career, I ate. This started a pattern for my 30's and 40's, gaining and losing the same few pounds, considering myself fat but fit (excellent BP, heart rate, cholesterol, etc.), but never comfortable in my own skin.

Now, at age 51, I seem to have hit upon a workable way to drop weight. Looking forward to getting to a point where I'm finally comfortable in my (now somewhat saggy) skin.

[katluvr]

So I admit I read MOST but not all of the posts or even did that "scanning" of some posts, but this thread interested me like others...

So almost 8 years ago I was 140 pounds...but I stand only 4'10". My partner was over 200. We started cycling and did weight watchers. We both lost "most" of the weight we wanted to. I struggled with the last 5-10 pound and then over time have gained a bit more. So I still struggle with 10 or more pounds to lose. My partner has gained back almost all.

So I still run (as you know from the running thread), I still cycle...but I know I can do the "distance" so my training is ALWAYS sporadic. Almost 2 years ago I became a vegetarian. Partly for health, mostly for the animals. (I always wanted to be a vegetarian but I really was a steak eater!).

My struggles:
I like (LOVE) food.
I like (LOVE) the social aspect of food...eating out with friends
I still struggle with creating a healthy diet without meat/poultry/fish and not "carb out"
I am too tired at the end of the day to fix food
I get bored with the same thing
It's easier to pick up something
I LOVE beer and wine
I HATE doing weight training
I am too tired after work to exercise (and would rather have a glass of wine)

I know these sound like excuses and there are answers/solutions to all the above.
I also know I have done more than many women my age: cycling trips, century rides, 1/2 marathons, a full marathon...but I still struggle with nutrition and weight AND consistent training. And anyone that knows me would not consider me inactive or lazy....but I always thought is I wrote a book the title would be "Inside this athlete is a couch potato trying to take over". That is how I feel.
I DON'T want to work this hard to get fit, stay fit and lose weight. Thus I am still struggling. I think there is part of me that just doesn't want to work that hard at it, thus the list of reasons (or obstacles or excuses) listed above.

(BTW, I am built JUST like my grandmother, very short, stocky/chunky and the tiniest shoe size!)

K

[thekarens]

I am 42, 5'3 and currently weigh 153. 6 months ago I weighed 200 lbs. My two biggest problems is that food has always been a "reward" for me. If we're celebrating it involved food. If I needed comfort it involved food.......etc etc. You ge the picture. The other big issue for me is I am naturally a couch potato. I hate mornings, love late nights and all of my passions involve sedentary activities, books, tech...........

Now my partner is someone who is very active, but since we've been together 12 years she had put on quite a few pounds herself. In the last 6 months she's dropped down to 130lb (she's 5'4) and I'm still plugging away. I was very dilligent for 6 months on going to the gym, but I've gotten bored stiff, which is what lead me into researching bikes. I do love the outdoors and nature. We're big time into birding, so I thought a bike might kick start my interest with the combo of nature and exercise.

I do still struggle with wanting to use food as a reward/comfort. I imagine I always will. For me it's a daily decision on what I want more, health or fitness.

[goldfinch]

So I admit I read MOST but not all of the posts or even did that "scanning" of some posts, but this thread interested me like others...

So almost 8 years ago I was 140 pounds...but I stand only 4'10". My partner was over 200. We started cycling and did weight watchers. We both lost "most" of the weight we wanted to. I struggled with the last 5-10 pound and then over time have gained a bit more. So I still struggle with 10 or more pounds to lose. My partner has gained back almost all.

So I still run (as you know from the running thread), I still cycle...but I know I can do the "distance" so my training is ALWAYS sporadic. Almost 2 years ago I became a vegetarian. Partly for health, mostly for the animals. (I always wanted to be a vegetarian but I really was a steak eater!).

My struggles:
I like (LOVE) food.
I like (LOVE) the social aspect of food...eating out with friends
I still struggle with creating a healthy diet without meat/poultry/fish and not "carb out"
I am too tired at the end of the day to fix food
I get bored with the same thing
It's easier to pick up something
I LOVE beer and wine
I HATE doing weight training
I am too tired after work to exercise (and would rather have a glass of wine)

I know these sound like excuses and there are answers/solutions to all the above.
I also know I have done more than many women my age: cycling trips, century rides, 1/2 marathons, a full marathon...but I still struggle with nutrition and weight AND consistent training. And anyone that knows me would not consider me inactive or lazy....but I always thought is I wrote a book the title would be "Inside this athlete is a couch potato trying to take over". That is how I feel.
I DON'T want to work this hard to get fit, stay fit and lose weight. Thus I am still struggling. I think there is part of me that just doesn't want to work that hard at it, thus the list of reasons (or obstacles or excuses) listed above.

(BTW, I am built JUST like my grandmother, very short, stocky/chunky and the tiniest shoe size!)



K

You are my size!

So, is the 10 pounds that significant? Are you healthy? Could it be that you are beating yourself up too much?

[shootingstar]

Have to congratulate those who lost a significant amount of weight...and most of us who still have our little alert inner button on monitoring our daily food intake.

I haven't yet tracked on a daily basis what I eat..but I do think about vaguely each day what I do eat. It doesn't mean it's right though. I wish I didn't have to think about it even in a lazy way, but the reality is that even healthy to semi-healthy daily eating does mean thinking a bit about how a meal tastes, how it looks (portion wise, what it is), and when to eat.

The best ways for me not to go crazy is:
*Never stock sugar, white rice, candies, cookies, chips at home in the pantry.
*Eat before 7:00 pm ( I used to eat past 8:00 pm just bad. I ate less but I GAINED weight.)
*Stock fridge with a wide variety of fresh fruits (at least 2-3 different types) and veggies. Always. This is a challenge during very cold winter weeks.
*Don't buy any processed, tv dinners. (Not hard for me, since I grew up in a family where we couldn't afford to buy them.)

I went to my lst bbq when I saw my family....who haven't seen me for 12 months. Ate hamburgers only 3 times in the past 3 months. And all of this at social functions outside of home. I probably won't eat a hamburger until 8 months later. We've never been interested in preparing hamburgers at home.

But yes, I love perogies, sausage....(gourmet stuff or bratwurst) at times.

[katluvr]

You are my size!

So, is the 10 pounds that significant? Are you healthy? Could it be that you are beating yourself up too much?

No, my BMI is on the "high end" and went clothes shopping yesterday, mirrors don't lie. I am UP a few pounds and clothes are tight. I can/will make some changes.

I guess my point is MOSTLY I know what I need to do. I also DO more than some (exercise and try to eat healthy). Just acknowledging it is HARD and that am am the way am I partly due to genetics/body type but also because of my choices. Like most/some people I would love for it to be "easy" or find the one "pill" or one "thing" that fixes (simplifies) it all.

So what I think I really need is a in home personal chef and trainer! :D
(and personal shopper and house cleaner, etc)

[Dogmama]

The best ways for me not to go crazy is:
*Never stock sugar, white rice, candies, cookies, chips at home in the pantry.
*Eat before 7:00 pm ( I used to eat past 8:00 pm just bad. I ate less but I GAINED weight.)
*Stock fridge with a wide variety of fresh fruits (at least 2-3 different types) and veggies. Always. This is a challenge during very cold winter weeks.
*Don't buy any processed, tv dinners. (Not hard for me, since I grew up in a family where we couldn't afford to buy them.)



I think those are great suggestions. If it isn't in the house, it won't end up in your mouth!

Processed foods, even Luna bars, etc., are weight gainers for me. Even if the calorie count for the day is the same (I'm guessing because I don't count) - those seem to add weight. I do NOT believe that a calorie is a calorie.

[indigoiis]

I think - and this is just a theory - that esp. those who get into cycling as adults (or running, or some other sport that shows such extreme & immediate improvement in health within a couple of years) that we are the TYPES who tend to be all-or-nothings, in-or-outs (as in, "I'm IN"), and like to set big goals and accomplish big things. I notice on this board that we are all pretty much achievement oriented.

Which is why I think it is easy to focus only on big gains or losses and forget about the little victories, the little good things that happen, that happen only in balance when we are doing something we love.

The body is not an exact science. I am one of those women who, as I age, pack on the saddlebags, eat like a horse, and then obsess about it. But I really think we need to think about food differently. We need to be mindful, but we also need to remember the joy in a great meal or a loaf of baked bread or that beer after a ride (I'm not a drinker, but I know what that is - that relief of cool goodness...) I think if we think creatively rather than critically about our bodies we might find we're pretty okay. It gets us where we want to go. We can move these bikes and stand up occasionally and attack a hill. I mean, come on. That's pretty awesome. It sucks that culturally we are so brainwashed about food and weight (I admit I am very bad about snap judgements when it comes to obesity) and if only we could brainwash ourselves into thinking about our bodies as really amazing, maybe some of our food issues would disappear. Maybe.

Our body is always sending messages because it's smart. I know I misinterpret those messages all the time (hunger vs. thirst, vs. loneliness/frustration/boredom/OCD... whatever.)

[lph]

(...) I notice on this board that we are all pretty much achievement oriented.
(...)

We need to be mindful, but we also need to remember the joy in a great meal or a loaf of baked bread or that beer after a ride

I like your theory, and I loved this!

[Crankin]

Which is why I cannot totally eliminate any one food group. I may come close, and others may think my eating is very strict, but let's put it this way. I just came back from vacation, where I ate pretty much what I wanted, with a little bit of trying to avoid some very bad for you stuff. I did eat onion rings, white bread, had appetizers almost every night, and desserts a couple of times. But, I had lots of fish and veggies. I rode almost 100 miles and went on a challenging hike.
Sometimes life is just too short to obsess about food. Of course, this comes from someone who is at her desired weight, but i gain pretty easily. Some days, I just want a glass of wine and some cheese.