Possible?: More millenials want liveable neighbourhoods, more transit, etc.

[shootingstar]

So says these articles:

http://pricetags.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/millennials-terrifying-home-builders/

http://pricetags.wordpress.com/2012/03/29/young-workers-terrifying-highway-planners/


I've read in several sources in past 6 months, there's just less young people jumping on the bandwagon to buy a car, etc.

Maybe it's more in the big cities.

[Crankin]

I think this is true for a subsection of this age bracket.
DS and DIL just bought a house. It's in an "inner" suburb, more citified than where I live, but still, they can't walk out the door to shops. But, there is a bus stop on the corner so DS can get into Boston for work. It's a 15 minute drive for DIL to get to work in another city-suburb. They have one car. So far, it's worked because DS either takes public trans or rides to work. If he needs the car, he has to stay up late to pick her up; she's a restaurant manager with odd hours. Eventually, probably when a kid appears, or someone gets a new job, they will need 2 cars. But, it will be interesting to see what happens when they move into the house. They have been living a very urban lifestyle and this is going to be a change.

[shootingstar]

It may well be happening in certain parts of North America. Here where I live, there's probably enough buying homes out in the suburbs but there is ongoing vocal demand for extended transit. I'm out in the prairies in a a major city of over 1 million. A major light rail line is being extended right now. City has grown fast in past decade.

http://grist.org/transportation/2011-12-27-driving-has-lost-its-cool-for-young-americans/?fb_ref=gl1

My niece and nephew who were raised in the suburbs in Toronto, both live near subway and bus.

Niece (26 yrs.) and her boyfriend have a car (his) but they try to avoid using the car if they can in Toronto. She commutes out to the suburbs to work daily by transit.

Her brother (24 yrs) lives...in Cambridge MA to attend university. Neither he nor his girlfriend have a car. She's probably using her parent's car since she is a medical intern.

My gut feel knows that these 2 children will not buy /live long term out anywhere isolated/in suburbs. (These are the children that lost their mom.)

My partner's children haven't gotten a car yet. Daughter is 32 yrs. and probably wouldn't feel comfortable using her license since she hasn't driven for a while (several years). She is used to transit in Vancouver. She lives downtown.

HIs son (30) and wife are expecting a baby so we'lll see if anything changes. So far no car and they live close to Toronto subway.

[jyyanks]

I work in NYC where public transportation/walking/biking is the preferred mode of transportation. The issue is that there is no space. So if a family wants the urban lifestyle and space, they will have to either shell out multiple millions of dollars for a bigger apartment or move to the suburbs where cars(suvs) are the preferred mode of transportation. Very few families can afford to live in Manhattan because of the cost of real estate and the cost of schools. My boss spends $40,000 dollars a year for PRESCHOOL!!!!! Unless your salary is outrageously high, living in the city once you have a family is not financially feasible unless you are willing to give up things like space and are willing to go to the public school closest to your residence. Some schools are better than others so the ones who are in the not so great schools have to pay for private education or move to the burbs. I'd be curious to see what its like elsewhere!

[Irulan]

Transitions to more liveable/walkable/smaller, less suburban communities has been underway in some locales for some years now.

[Crankin]

Shooting Star, your niece doesn't need a car to live in Cambridge. The city where my son lives now, in his apt. is right next to Cambridge. However, as a medical intern, her boyfriend probably needs a car for the late night shifts at the major teaching hospitals in Boston. Our public transportation stops running at midnight.
My DIL grew up in Boston. However, her parents gave no thought to the quality of the schools. She missed getting into the prestigious "exam" school by one point on the exam, for secondary school, had a horrible year as a 7th grader, where she was beaten up and called all kinds of racist names. On her own, she got herself into a Friend's School for gr. 8, with a scholarship, and then to an arts oriented private school for high school, where she had to travel 2 hours to get there. My son is well aware that the city where they bought their home is not where he would want his kids to go to school. They probably would move again before any child reached school age. It will be a huge adjustment for DIL, although by then, they should have enough money to move to a close in suburb, with public trans, better schools, and a decent "downtown" area. I know she feels like where we live is sort of like a vacation.

[shootingstar]

My boss spends $40,000 dollars a year for PRESCHOOL!!!!!

Wow, especially if that's for just 1 child.

Well, Crankin it's actually my nephew in Cambridge. He used to the shlepping along using transit and subway. Lots of medical interns would need a car at times, to deal with their crazy long shiftwork.

However I believe Grog's hubby when he was a medical intern, he cycled to work at times from downtown Vancouver area ...to a hospital in the 'burbs for him to build in fitness in a busy schedule.

[Crankin]

Same thing happens here, with the crazy tuitions for preschool. There's a private school at the foot of my street that charges 30K for preschool.
However, there are plenty of good quality preschools that are normally priced.
Just not in the city.

[westtexas]

So I guess I'm considered a "millenial" (what a dumb name) and I would have to agree. I'm moving back east and rather than live out in the suburbs where I will have to commute in to work, I'm willing to sacrifice space for the convenience of being close to everything. I'm looking at high rise apartments right now that sit within a few blocks of the rail line (it only goes up and down one street haha) so I can ride it to work instead of driving. I will keep my car though so I can trek out to the 'burbs where my folks live (25 miles away but still in the same city...).

But, I am single and have no children. And although I like driving for long trips, I despise having to get in the stupid car to go 5 miles to run errands or whatever. Where i live now walking/biking around town is impossible. Looking forward to a more close-in lifestyle when I move this summer.

It's what I want. But possible or not? Everything costs money and that's always the bottom line when it comes to these things.

[Kiwi Stoker]

When we moved last year we rented a car and drove 10km radius out from DH's work and then figured out what area looked OK to live in. We could of chosen areas near the beach etc but we decided having DH only 10 minutes drive from home was a prioirty. I really don't undertstand people who commute for an hour or more to get to work.

Criteria-

Had to be near a supermarket or other store so can walk to get milk etc.
Walking distance for a library or near a bus route to a library.

This way we are able to live with one car.

However after 2 years in Singapore and apartment living I am NEVER going to advocate living in apartments for families- especially children. You don't see kids playing or enjoying themselves in Singapore. They are stuck inside or at tution classes.

In Melbourne I have never seen so many parents and kids out and about- picnicking, riding bikes, walking, playing games. I'm sorry but we all need a patch of dirt or courtyard to just walk outside in.

Forget intesnive living, I think medium density of townshouses with a large courtyard should be the minimum for families with easy access to parks. High rise living is just awful.

[shootingstar]

Would agree that having a community centre and park within 5-10 min. walking distance is helpful for any type of housing.

In downtown Vancouver among highrise condos by the waterfront...they are BUILDING 2 new elementary schools (kindergarten to grade 6) because there are alot of families living in this area. When you think about that, it's incredible. 1 of the schools is in the Olympic Village area. So families with some money, are choosing to live closer to or in the core of Vancouver. Some of this housing is a blend of high-rise, low-rise and townhouses.

And these are more expensive places. There's lots of green lovely space, bike-pedestrian paths, market is close and Stanley Park is a few km. away.

It wouldn't be surprising that the culture of Singapore is such that children do play, but more of a tendency to get kids to study, study...which isn't totally healthy either.

I'm only saying this because in Vancouver there are many ESL schools for adults, older teens, many recently or directly from Asia, who are there because some have parents who are pushing them there to ramp on their grades ...to enter into university. (Also dearie's daughter has worked for several of these schools in Vancouver. I hear about the situation from her....)

It depends what one is used to. It doesn't interest me to be in a 2-3 bedroom single family dwelling out in the 'burbs. I don't have children. Makes no sense to isolate myself. Dearie had his taste of surburbs before he married and had children. He and his ex chose to live in a home in downtown Toronto not far from transit. There are some decent neighbourhoods in Toronto close to the subway. I know, I used to live there and still have family scattered across the city....all close to transit for their homes.

[Koronin]

When we lived in the Charlotte, NC area. We lived in Mooresville. Without traffic it's about a half hour drive to downtown Charlotte. During rush hour, that have hour becomes a minimum of 2 hours. Here's the thing about Charlotte. If you want to live in a decent to good area of town, you going to have to pay at least $500,000 for a house or condo. If you can't afford that (like most people) you either live in a very bad area, or you move to a different city and commute. As for public transportation, well if you work a regular hour job that's great you can use it, but if you work odd hours which my husband always did (or I did when I worked in Charlotte) public transportation is totally useless as the buses either aren't running when you get to work or when you get off work, or in the case of one of the night shifts I worked either one. Another thing to consider is taxes. Charlotte/Mecklanburg taxes are much higher than they are in any of the surrounding counties. In looking it's actually cheaper to commute to work and waste a couple hours a day sitting in traffic than to pay the much higher taxes in Mecklanberg county (which would include 3 other cities besides Charlotte). Also the cost of appartments and homes is a good bit less in the cities outside of Mecklanberg county as long as you aren't looking to buy a home on the lake, then those are also a minimum of $350,000 last I knew. I don't mind living in town. Where we currently live is actually about 1 mile outside of the city limits, but we love the neighborhood. (We also have virtually no public transportation anyway, what we do have is useless as it picks up in a couple neighborhoods and it's only stop is the mall). I grew up in a home in the city limits. The city I grew up in did not (and still does not) have any form of public transportation. Public transportation is just something that if you don't live in a huge metro area you really just don't have available. The one thing I did like about where I grew up was there were a few stores that were within walking distance. Where I'm at now, if the main road had a side walk or a mut you could walk to a couple of places. I have no interest in walking on the main road, but may eventually be willing to ride my bike on it. (But probably never during rush hour).

[westtexas]

In looking it's actually cheaper to commute to work and waste a couple hours a day sitting in traffic than to pay the much higher taxes...

To me, this is not cheaper. Although the actual dollars might be less, the toll on my life and my happiness is not worth it (same reason I don't shop at WalMart - I lose valuable years off my life going in that crazy place!). I could not imagine sitting in traffic in my car for a couple of hours each day. All that sitting and doing nothing... yuck. People who can do this impress me, as it is something I could never do.

[shootingstar]

Also the cost of appartments and homes is a good bit less in the cities outside of Mecklanberg county as long as you aren't looking to buy a home on the lake, then those are also a minimum of $350,000 last I knew.

In Vancouver, BC you would get a 1 bedroom and small one --if you're lucky. It has the highest real estate in Canada. (Actually at that price, it's probably more Toronto, which means Toronto is a bit cheaper than Vancouver.)

It terms of increased value for one's home over time, it's probably better to get a place within walking distance of transit or bike/ped path to destinations anyway --even if you drive alot.

Alot of real estate agents would tell you that....if they aren't, then they haven't progressed in their way of thinking. (Sorry to be brutal, but that's my opinion of what I expect out of real estate agents...intelligent, market forecasting of community future needs. Not just out to make a quick sale.)

Certainly in Vancouver and Toronto, it's been proven if you have a home within a very short bike ride to a bike -ped. path in a greenway area, it will make your neighbourhood more valued --for many different reasons.

At work, a colleague mentioned that she personally knew someone whose children (late teens to early '20s) had never used our local transit system which does have a wide network. She and I both thought it was wierd....and ridiculous. (which means the children had been chauffered around in cars or not allowed to use transit. ) The person who told me this is herself is a single mother with 2 children in now their early 20's. Colleague's children do a blend of driving as well as taking transit at times.

Koronin, I grew up a twinned city in southern Ontario in the 1960's-1970's. Population at that time was under 80,000 for 2 cities combined. There was/still is a transit system. This city also has 2 universities and 1 college. We lived only a 10 min. walk away from local bus system. I learned to use it when I was.....14 yrs. old by myself. Yes, those were the days. But later I went university and used it for lousy weather days. I just walked 5 km. each way between home and campus when the weather was good.

So as a child, I already knew how transit fitted into my life. If children are not exposed to using any transit several times per year (even with an adult), it would be tougher (in my opinion) to get them used it and how to weave it into their schedule.

Maybe some millenials got tired of being held to someone else's driving schedule, cost of car/insurance/gas to have a car, whatever else or maybe there's less stuff to do in the suburbs as teens grow independent and get itchy feet....? Or maybe preference to spend their money on technology vs. car or ...?

[Crankin]

My oldest son could not wait until he could drive himself to the train station. I started letting him go into Cambridge by himself when he was in 9th grade (I dropped him at the train) and many parents thought I was terrible. He spent his entire high school years "walking" around Boston and Cambridge, going to stores and coffee shops with his friends. We lived in a rural town of 5,000. There was nothing to do at all. My younger son never had the desire to do this. He was too busy training for racing on our rural and suburban roads. However, now he lives close to the downtown of his city, and one block from the beach, too. You can walk to plenty of places and catch also a train, which for southern California is good.
I remember so clearly, the first time I took my kids into Boston, after we moved here from AZ. They were 5 and 7. We went to do a walking tour, which involved taking the commuter rail and the subway to the start, as we lived up near the NH border at the time. My kids were "amazed" that I knew where to go, what trains to catch and the fact that I had started doing this at age 11 (and, that my mother let me).

[Koronin]

In Vancouver, BC you would get a 1 bedroom and small one --if you're lucky. It has the highest real estate in Canada. (Actually at that price, it's probably more Toronto, which means Toronto is a bit cheaper than Vancouver.)

It terms of increased value for one's home over time, it's probably better to get a place within walking distance of transit or bike/ped path to destinations anyway --even if you drive alot.

Alot of real estate agents would tell you that....if they aren't, then they haven't progressed in their way of thinking. (Sorry to be brutal, but that's my opinion of what I expect out of real estate agents...intelligent, market forecasting of community future needs. Not just out to make a quick sale.)

Certainly in Vancouver and Toronto, it's been proven if you have a home within a very short bike ride to a bike -ped. path in a greenway area, it will make your neighbourhood more valued --for many different reasons.

At work, a colleague mentioned that she personally knew someone whose children (late teens to early '20s) had never used our local transit system which does have a wide network. She and I both thought it was wierd....and ridiculous. (which means the children had been chauffered around in cars or not allowed to use transit. ) The person who told me this is herself is a single mother with 2 children in now their early 20's. Colleague's children do a blend of driving as well as taking transit at times.

Koronin, I grew up a twinned city in southern Ontario in the 1960's-1970's. Population at that time was under 80,000 for 2 cities combined. There was/still is a transit system. This city also has 2 universities and 1 college. We lived only a 10 min. walk away from local bus system. I learned to use it when I was.....14 yrs. old by myself. Yes, those were the days. But later I went university and used it for lousy weather days. I just walked 5 km. each way between home and campus when the weather was good.

So as a child, I already knew how transit fitted into my life. If children are not exposed to using any transit several times per year (even with an adult), it would be tougher (in my opinion) to get them used it and how to weave it into their schedule.

Maybe some millenials got tired of being held to someone else's driving schedule, cost of car/insurance/gas to have a car, whatever else or maybe there's less stuff to do in the suburbs as teens grow independent and get itchy feet....? Or maybe preference to spend their money on technology vs. car or ...?


You do realize that the $350,000 is for a lake front home (that would be homes less than 500 sq ft and no where near a main channel and way back off back roads to get to it). There is NO public transportation anywhere near the lake homes. You're paying to live on the lake. If you want to be close to public transportation the stop in Huntersville has apts near by, but no single family homes (must drive to the parking lot for the bus). In Charlotte the bus stops are all near not very desirable places to live. If you want to live in a decent area of Charlotte (no apts) you'd be paying a minimum of $500,000 for a condo PLUS HOA fees. Or minimum $1,000,000 for a house and you will be no where near a bus stop or the new light rail. All those stops are in areas that are crime ridden. Hey if you want to live in neighborhoods with robberies, murders, attacks, ect on a weekly basis go ahead, but I'd rather live in a safe affordable area, which for most people who aren't doctors or lawyers or CEOs is not downtown Charlotte.

The city I grew up in had a around 50,000 people and is a bit less than that now. The city I went to college in was and still is at 100,000 and another 100,000 in the suburbs and there is no public transportation for either city. Another city I grew up about 45 minutes away from has a population of close to 300,000 and it's sister city has about 250,000 and neither one has any public transportation.
The city I now live in is 80,000 people, and as I stated has two bus routes. One goes from base housing to the mall, the other goes from a bad area of town to the mall. That is it. No other routes. The larger city an hour away does not have public transportation.

Then to be able to use public transportation you have to work while it is actually operating. Let's first pick up for Charlotte's buses is around 8am and the last drop off is around 9pm (they have to back at their hub no later than 10pm). The only place I worked in downtown Charlotte. Day shift was 7am to 3pm. Afternoon shift 3pm -11pm and night shift was 11pm til 7am. Couldn't use public transportation even if there was a stop within 5 miles, which there wasn't. The closest bus stop I saw was about 8 miles away. The other place my husband worked downtown shifts were 4am - 3pm and 3:30pm until 2:30am. Also not condusive to public transportation. For public transportation to work, IMO, you actually need a regular office job which is not something a lot of people actually have. Now for my current job even if it was available and useful it wouldn't work, but I'm also lugging around a truck full of stuff for different projects. Hence the reason for buying a small hatchback that is easier to get things in and out of it.

[Koronin]

To me, this is not cheaper. Although the actual dollars might be less, the toll on my life and my happiness is not worth it (same reason I don't shop at WalMart - I lose valuable years off my life going in that crazy place!). I could not imagine sitting in traffic in my car for a couple of hours each day. All that sitting and doing nothing... yuck. People who can do this impress me, as it is something I could never do.

When I worked in downtown Charlotte I typically didn't work hours in which I had to deal with rush hour traffic. I was typically working afternoon or night shift so traffic wasn't bad. Actually same goes for my husband. Now when we were in DC for a trip I specifically picked a hotel that was right near the train line and we used that the entire time we were there. I did however, discover two things, first being I have to take motion sickness pills to be able to ride light rail and the other is to me I felt very confined. (I agree with you about WalMart. I prefer to avoid that place as well).

[shootingstar]

As mentioned earlier, car can be necessary for night shift work. (I mentioned it when referring to medical interns. They work long shifts 10-12 hrs. 80 hrs. per wk. sometimes. Yea, medical interns in Canada work hard to earn their....doctor's license after testing, etc.)

Would I choose to live in more rural area long term? No. I can't kid myself for the services I need long-term to enjoy life.

Crankin, one of my sisters tried to have her teenage son take the bus to school. But I think they gave up temporarily because they were not comfortable or whatever. Maybe when he gets older. He's 14 yrs.

With my partner's children, they each had a large group of friends that they hung around alot in coffee shops, etc. in Toronto. In Toronto, one sees this, teens of 2-10 hanging out together. A good thing in terms of safety and bonding.

None of his children got into drugs. Toronto is a city of over 2 million people.

[Koronin]

Those are long hours for interns. That is crazy. I've been to Toronto, it's a really cool city and has a great transportation system. (Yes have used it on vacation.) Actually theirs was the first one I'd ever used. Oh and I didn't need motion sickness pills on that one. When I was in high school a few of my friends would go to Toronto on weekends that we had extra time off. I've always thought of it as a very safe city for being as large as it is. (Esp when comparing it to many US cities).

[Blueberry]

I definitely think we're running into some cultural difference in this thread.

There are moderately sized cities in the US where living near the city center in a safe location (even if one is willing to make the sacrifices that shootingstar points out) is not feasible. There are just not dwellings available for purchase. As US cities sprawled they did not develop residential areas near the working areas, and we're just now starting to re-develop in lots of our downtown areas for some residential use. There are also many, many places where public transit is either completely unworkable for the average person, or totally non-existent. US cities have not invested in infrastructure as other places have (other than to build roads), so for kids to learn public transit isn't an option.

We've been privileged to be able to make choices that reduce our dependance on a car, and are making yet more changes. Others aren't lucky enough to live in an area where that is feasible.

[Crankin]

I agree, Blueberry. I've lived in the northeast, west, and south, and in the latter 2, there was no public transportation at all. Yea, there was a bus in Dade County when I lived there, but it was not convenient. Yet, the city I grew up in (a suburb next to Boston) had 5-6 trolley car stops and a bus system in the 50s and 60s. I know Miami and Phoenix have light rail now, but how long did that take?
I disagree with the idea that I'd rather sit in my car and pay for gas instead of taxes. Sometimes we forget what taxes pay for. Don't like your schools? Your roads? Not enough police or fire protection, or public transportation? In the US, we just don't get it. Taxes pay for the services that make for a better quality of life. And, this system only works if everyone participates. So, when people make choices that avoid paying taxes, it affects all of us.
Sorry to go on a rant; I'd much rather have the "quality of life," than other stuff. I know that I am lucky and can pretty much afford to live wherever, but I have always felt like this. When I was a young teacher, I lived in a studio apartment where I could walk to downtown Tempe, ride my bike to grad classes, and to my parents' house. All of my friends lived in much more modern 2 bedrooms apartments way out in the middle of nowhere.
Sometimes we really have to change how we think.

[shootingstar]

It's better for Koronin to join up with local citizens to express their needs for transit long term.

I sympathize with her because my parents did buy a home in the suburbs and lived their for 15 years in this same city (where I grew up) after all 5 (except for 6th one) left home to live in other cities. It was a nice area but a pain in the butt for getting around anywhere to services/shopping easily.

But still they did have a home out in the burbs within a 15 min. of bus stop..because several of us didn't have cars when we went to visit them. Then later moved into mid-town Toronto. I'm so glad: my father has prostate cancer....most definitely not good to have them out in the suburbs and isolated...away from children..grandchildren.


We have to change how to live at different stages in life. It is for our survival in quality life if we choose to be independent but safe to ourselves and others around us. (Driving by the elderly with increased frailities is not a good idea.)

[Koronin]

Crankin, I'm sure by your comment you have no idea that roads in NC are only paid for by the gas tax. Fire dept is only funded by personal property taxes and the schools, and police are also partially funded by personal property taxes. The property taxes basically fund the county and city on their operating expenses. For the most part state income and sales taxes fund the school systems NOT property taxes. Some of the larger counties are "donor" counties which means they send more money to the state in sales and income taxes than what they get back. The money they do not get back is sent to poorer areas of the state for those areas to fund their schools and other things they need. So truthfully it does NOT matter where you live because if you live in a large county like Mecklanberg you're funding schools for other parts of the state. If you live in a smaller county you may be getting help from the larger counties or you may be in a break even county. I actually lived in a "break even" county. Oh and for paying for public transportation the ONLY thing that funds it is the fees you pay for actually using it. Taxes do not pay for it at all. Due to costs going up, they are currently raising fees AND cutting routes. That is mostly due to the rise in gas prices.


shootstar, about 4-5 years ago Charlotte built their first light rail line. It only services the southern part of the city, but everything I've read and heard is that it has been very sucessful. They are in the process of just now starting the 2nd line which will run about 5 miles from Charlotte to the university area. I'm very happy to see that. They had originally wanted it to run another 3 miles, but they don't have the financing to do that right now, so are going to build what they can. The 3rd line they want to build (which would go to near where I used to live) may never get built. 3 of the 4 cities along that line don't want it unless they are guaranteed all kinds of business and revenue coming in along the line and for some unknown reason they want to use existing rail that is owned and operated by freight trains and NOT respect their schedules. So the freight trains have said either you run your routes around us or build your own. So I doubt that line will ever get built at this point. I was very supportive of it when I first heard about it as I still lived there at the time. Now where I currently live they are actually working on more bike routes and bike lanes vs doing anything at all with public transportation. Which actually I get here. The main employer is the Marine Base. Base housing will allow public transportation, but the base it's self will not due to security reasons. Truthfully without public transportation running routes that would go on base and go to several different areas of the base it just really isn't feasible here as there are no other large employers. Basically the city is around 80,000 (maybe closer to 100,000) now with the extra troops that have brought in. However, of that at least have are military or military families and another quarter to a third are civil service that work on base.

[Crankin]

I know that different states fund things differently and what you describe is different from anywhere else I have lived. But, I guess my comment reflects a general philosophy rather than your specific case. I just don't like it when I hear anti-tax stuff, as many people I have met don't make the connection between services and taxes. When your state (city, town) loses revenue, they don't collect taxes, hence you lose services.
Public transportation is a state of mind that many parts of the US just doesn't want to accept. Not sure how to change this, except that people need to get together on this one. Everyone benefits.

[Koronin]

I agree that NC is odd (even to me) in the way some things are done, although from what I'm gathering many southern states are done this way vs most of the rest of the country. From what I remember, Ohio is done more how you are thinking. (I grew up in Ohio). Actually the town I picked to live in in the Charlotte area has, from my understanding, the best school system in that area and one of the best in the state. Even though I don't have kids that was important to me more for resale value of the home. The only thing Mecklanberg county has done with taxes to help with the public transportation system is that added a temporary small amount to the county's sales tax to help in getting the money to build the first light rail line. If remember right that tax was for maybe 3 years and not renewable. I do remember that it passed. They have not asked for a sales tax increase to help build the 2nd line that I am aware of. Actually found some of the road stuff due to the stimilus package and NC getting some of the money for a couple of specific projects. There were some major issues because Raleigh was not going to send it where it was supposed to go, they were going to use it for who knows what and the federal govt had to step in and by pass Raleigh and send the money to the locales where that money was supposed to go for specific projects. One of which is in Huntersville (just outside of Charlotte). They had put together a request for some of the money to redo a really bad intersection. It was approved as one of the projects to get the money and Raleigh didn't want to send it to them. They did get it and from what I read a few days ago that project is now just about finished and the intersection looks like it should now work much better. There were a couple other projects in Charlotte that the fed govt had to make sure they got the money instead of Raleigh sending it to other areas. Actually I think one of those projects that the fed govt had to make sure got it's money is actually the 2nd line of the light rail that looks like it's close to getting started with construction. One thing that I know property taxes are used for is parks and recreation areas. Over the past 10 years, Mooresville (where I lived) has upgraded and added new parks, including a skate board park, which looks really cool. When we moved one thing the town was seriously looking at for their next major project was adding bike lanes or paths to certain roads. They were supposed to be doing a feasibility study on it.
Just out of curiosity I found a property tax calculator and put in what my home is worth and checked different areas of NC (which are pretty similar for the most part, where I used to live is less than anywhere else and those are all virtually the same). I think used it for several areas of Ohio with the same price. The city my parents live in is less (it's also one of the most depressed areas in the state, think not recovered after the steel mills shut down) and every other city I put into it came up several hundred dollars more in property taxes per year no matter what part of the state I picked. Also Ohio uses city income taxes and not personal property taxes, where as NC uses personal property taxes instead of city income taxes. Actually due to the closeness to the ocean I'm actually surprised out property taxes aren't higher than they are.

I do think in larger cities public transportation is becoming more acceptable in more areas of the country. Not sure how to make more acceptable in small cities where there aren't the businesses and the vast number of jobs in fairly small areas to make it really even viable. Or in a case like where we are when the military and fed govt (civil service jobs and also contractor jobs all on base) accounts for at least three fourths of the jobs for the city how it would even really be viable when the base will not allow it on base due to security issues.

[Slowspoke]

I live in a suburb of the "motor city". Public transportation is a joke. When I was a teen and through my undergrad years, I lived near a Main line for busing. I was able to take the bus downtown to college classes and rode my bike to work. That was ideal. Now I live on the other side of town where there are no bus lines to get me to work. Bike lanes? Forget about it! There are a few suburbs with bike lanes, but they are more for a casual ride than to get anywhere significant. Just in the past two years, more buses have been showing up with bike racks. That is great, but I have also noticed that some bus lines have been shut down. Very frustrating.

My husband grew up very near where we live now. He has never been on a bus and the thought of riding a bike anywhere is akin to flying to the moon!!! He also thinks that reclycing is stupid and doesn't believe that that many people are into it! LOL I think it's his age (40) and where he grew up. Slowly, slowly I am trying to teach!

[Koronin]

I love that we have curbside recycling where we now live. I don't know if they have it in the city we live near, but in the county all three choices of garbage pick up companies have garbage pick up one day and recycling pick up another day.

[lovelygamer]

My oldest son could not wait until he could drive himself to the train station. I started letting him go into Cambridge by himself when he was in 9th grade (I dropped him at the train) and many parents thought I was terrible. He spent his entire high school years "walking" around Boston and Cambridge, going to stores and coffee shops with his friends. We lived in a rural town of 5,000. There was nothing to do at all. My younger son never had the desire to do this. He was too busy training for racing on our rural and suburban roads. However, now he lives close to the downtown of his city, and one block from the beach, too. You can walk to plenty of places and catch also a train, which for southern California is good.
I remember so clearly, the first time I took my kids into Boston, after we moved here from AZ. They were 5 and 7. We went to do a walking tour, which involved taking the commuter rail and the subway to the start, as we lived up near the NH border at the time. My kids were "amazed" that I knew where to go, what trains to catch and the fact that I had started doing this at age 11 (and, that my mother let me).

Crankin, by this thread I realize you live where I am going on vacation next month. I'm hoping to go to the Walden pond one day and were staying in Cambridge across the Charles River. Our hotel rents bikes for free and I plan to use them but my other half will not. He doesn't believe in commuting by bike and/or using them for practical nature. He likes to MTB, but I'm still working on the rest. Me, though I'll ride almost anywhere and love to do so. We are not renting a car and plan to use the transit system everywhere. I think the stop closest to our hotel is Lechemere. I also read that we get to Concord taking the Fitchburg line from the North Station. I am so excited!

[malkin]

...I really don't undertstand people who commute for an hour or more to get to work...

Try this for a simple situation:

My husband's job is in Provo.
My job is in Salt Lake City.

Living in either of those places means an hour long commute for one of us.

(I can't even write anything about living in Provo--I just end up shaking my head and laughing.)

[Veronica]

I really don't undertstand people who commute for an hour or more to get to work.



My husband commutes 90 minutes each way to work in SF. 45 minutes on his motorcycle, 45 minutes on BART.

When we decided we were staying in CA we bought a house where we could afford it. The city we worked in was far too expensive for us to buy in. We initially commuted together, two hours each way. We had to buy that far out to be able to get a house with a VA Loan. We've both changed jobs a few times since. I can see the school I teach at now. It's about 1/2 mile away as the crow flies.

We don't want to live in the city. Our house will be paid off in two years, why even move closer to his job and reset the mortgage clock? Plus I love our house. And my commute is great. :D

Veronica

[colorisnt]

I'm a millenial, I guess, and I can't forsee myself living long-term in an area sans-public-transit. I really hate driving and don't if I don't have to. I've just returned from being abroad first in Rwanda and then for three weeks in the UK. I used to live in the UK and very much missed the bus system. I was in Manchester, a relatively large city, and never had an issues getting around. There's a big bike culture there and if I lived there, I would bike everywhere. It's a very accessible city.

I currently live in an area where public transit is basically a big joke - buses don't run at night when I come home from work/school. Buses don't run mid-day at regular intervals. In fact, the buses don't even get within a mile of where I need to go and are not very reliable. I gave up trying to take the bus after the 3rd time I took it and they randomly changed the bus route for two weeks without alerting customers. I ended up walking a mile and a half to get where I needed to go in the heat. No thanks. I would have rather ridden there - it's only a 2 mile ride from where I lived! I hate the driving.

That said, the city tries to be bike friendly. They put bike lanes up everywhere, of course, but you can park in them, so I end up finding the ones close to where I lived were dangerous to go in and out of in times of heavy traffic. Other lanes are so narrow and go between two separate lines of traffic, so I try to avoid them and would rather take the lane for my own personal safety. The best thing we have is the MKT/Katy trail. I am moving right up behind it this year and will commuting to and from town as often as I can. I'm still not sure how much more friendly the city is than my hometown, though. And at least at home, I can take the South Shore/Metra to get into Chicago proper. I can't get to a major city safely at all sans-car where I live. STL and KC are both 2/2 and a half hours away by car. There is a bus to STL, but it drops you in a super sketchy part of town which I am not comfortable navagating on my own. I miss living in a metro area.

I really am a city girl. I honestly would have a better quality of life in a huge city than out in the boonies just because driving stresses me out that much. I have OCD and the lack of control of other drivers causes me to stress out. If I get an offer abroad, I'm likely to take it because I don't really have much to keep me here and most of Western Europe is far better with public transit than is most of the States.

[shootingstar]

Hope at least your commuting by bike works out well for now.

There might 4-5 big cities that would fit cycling/transit needs very well with their infrastructure, culture, support in the U.S. Be at least open to that.

[colorisnt]

Oh I would be, but health care is another huge concern for me as well as politics. I just don't feel like I fit in in the states much anymore. It'd have to be a big northern city. The heat in MO kills me. I have determined I could never live any place that hot again haha. Minneapolis would be an awesome place to be. I hear nothing but good things about their transit/bike infrastructure.

I'm happy not to have to worry about being hit by a car while climbing a very steep hill on the way home. I had a close call last year that made me scared to do it anymore.

[Eden]

You would probably like Seattle. Very little hot weather, OK bike infrastructure (but you have to resign yourself to hill climbing), decent public transportation that is growing, and relatively liberal politics.

[shootingstar]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Stoker
I really don't undertstand people who commute for an hour or more to get to work.






Try this for a simple situation:

My husband's job is in Provo.
My job is in Salt Lake City.

Living in either of those places means an hour long commute for one of us.

(I can't even write anything about living in Provo--I just end up shaking my head and laughing.)

I did have up to 1 hr. long commute one way either by subway (maybe faster by only 10 min. or the same) or by cycling when I lived in Toronto for 14 years. I worked for several different employers in different parts of the city. (Yea, I switched employers..)

It's simple kiwistoker:
a person doesn't always have ideal work locations for the job that they really want that fits their career /salary needs. I accept that. At least I didn't have the stress of driving for that period of time. I could zone out on the subway ride or relax (abit more) on a bike route that was 80% bike path /bike lane for a 30 km. daily round trip between home and work.

Color: If I didn't say it earlier in this post: I am also a city gal. I'm not going to kid myself....after staying with friends living in small Canadian towns, population under 10,000 or even less for a few days over the past few decades while on vacation, I know cannot live in these areas beyond several months to 1 year. Unless it did have public transit/under 1 hr. commute to a city.

I just found out that a sister is now at least having her 14 yr. old son take the transit bus himself from swimming lessons. They live in mid-town Toronto, in a semi-surban area but a 10 min. walk to closest transit bus stop.

I noticed her daughter a 10 yr. old and now into competitive gymnastics who also plays non-competitive ice hockey, complained whenever we walked beyond 15 min. when I vacationed with them this summer. How ironic, her enthusiasm for her chosen, planned sports but she is chauffered to her activities (because there's no choice for parents) yet she hates walking. To me, that is not a good state of affairs. (Her parents are aware of this since both parents are physically active themselves.)

My niece is a trim, muscular slim girl --for now.

[indysteel]

Try this for a simple situation:

My husband's job is in Provo.
My job is in Salt Lake City.

Living in either of those places means an hour long commute for one of us.

(I can't even write anything about living in Provo--I just end up shaking my head and laughing.)

This is similar to our issue. We work in opposite directions so we moved to a point halfway between. We each drive 50 miles a day. There are no public transport options for either of us. Welcome to Middle America. When I lived in downtown Indy, I often walked to work and was able to ride nearly everywhere, although I was not car free. I miss that very much, but some things just can't be helped. One of would have to change jobs fir this situation to change.

[malkin]

When I was 20, I knew perfectly well what I wanted.
Looking back, I guess I didn't exert enough control over some of the variables.

[colorisnt]

Eden,

Yeah, that or Portland. My Aunt lives there and it is apparently a huge bike city :) Living in a town of less than a million is really just not in the cards for me. I a biding my time until I can get the heck out of where I live now (2.5 years). Even just being within an hour of a larger city would be a good compromise, but again, there would have to be public transit.