Painting an old home

[ny biker]

I'm getting ready to have my condo painted. It's a 1BR condo, built in the 1940s, renovated in the 1970s, previous owners did very little to upgrade it. I'm on a limited budget since there is so much other work to do (e.g., new floors, gut and renovate bathroom). I want to have the living room/dining room, hallway (including two louvered closet doors) and bedroom painted this year.

I plan to hire painters because lots of prep work is needed, like fixing cracked plaster and giant nail holes, and I know it would not be happy with the quality if I attempted to do it myself. (I just did not inherit the DIY gene from my father.)

However I'm thinking of stripping the paint off all the trim -- mouldings, windowsills, trim around the doors -- before bringing the painters in to do their work. Is this crazy??

Here's my reasoning: There are way way way too many layers of paint on all the trim, so much that the edges of the detail are hardly visible. Also the paint is peeling a lot on the windowsills. And since the first coat was applied in the 1970s, I know some layers are lead-based. I think it will cost a lot to have the painters sand or strip all the trim before painting it. Actually, one of my neighbors has a baby so I really don't want anyone sanding away the lead paint.

There's a "green" hardware store in this area that sells Soy-Gel paint remover:

http://www.franmar.com/paint-removal/component/content/article/32-franmar-paint-removal-soy-gel-paint-and-urethane.html

A few years back I spoke to the manager at the store about it; he had used it in his own home and was happy with it. Also, it gets very good reviews on Amazon. Supposedly it works well, has no obxnoxious odors and the gel contains the old paint as you remove it, so it's a good way to remove lead paint.

I know it would be messy and time-consuming, but I think it could save me some money by reducing the amount of work the painters have to do. And it could reduce the number of days that they will be in my home.

Does this sound like a crazy idea? Does it make more sense to just have the old trim replaced?

BTW, the LR/DR will be green, specifically "Salty Brine" from C2, and the bedroom will be "Bluetonium" blue. The trim and doors will all be Behr Ultra Pure White. It will take time and money before it's done, but I'm really looking forward to that day.

[jessmarimba]

I wouldn't.

The painters won't be allowed to just sand it, either, especially if you know the date of construction and pass that on. If they're licensed contractors, they'll have to have taken EPAlead safety classes and will know how to safely handle stripping the paints.

[jyyanks]

When you say trim, do you mean the moldings? I think its a lot easier to just replace the moldings. You can use MDF which is cheaper that wood and paint them white. Its a lot easier and safer than messing with lead. Good Luck!

[withm]

I would not mess with this myself. Lead paint was not prohibited until 1978, and there is a very good chance you have it in your house. At the very least, you can get a lead paint test kit at Home Depot and test some of the peeled areas yourself. If you do indeed have lead, then a licensed (i.e. reputable) painter will be required to test all the potential work areas according to EPA guidelines prior to working in your home.

If you have lead paint, they will have to strip or sand, and most importantly, CONTAIN all the lead dust created during this process. The workers will have to seal off all work areas while this work is being done and you will be prohibited from entry to those areas while this is happening. The workers will all be required to wear Tyvek suits, and have their gloves and booties taped to prevent any lead dust from getting on their clothing and being subsequently transferred to their vehicles, furniture, kids tec.

Once all the lead dust is contained and removed, and the actual painting starts you could theoretically regain entry to the work areas. But I would not recommend it. It would be good to stay somewhere else for the couple of days while this is going on.

Here is a link to the booklet that the EPA requires us to provide to all of our clients prior to any disturbance of lead paint.

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovaterightbrochure.pdf

Having said all this, there is NO requirement for an individual homeowner to comply with these rules when working on his/her OWN dwelling. However, once you understand the risks of lead dust inhalation, why would you want to?

The penalty for a contractor not employing lproper ead paint containment practices is $32,500 per incident/per day. While enforcement has been minimal, the contractors they do cite are being held to the fullest extent of the law.

It is important to note that these rules apply to lead dust containment and not to lead abatement procedures which is an entirely different scenario. The goal for the average homeowner is to mitigate and contain the dust, though lead paint is permitted to remain on the walls underneath the new paint. These rules only come into play when "lead paint is disturbed" - that is sanded, scraped, or otherwise turned into fine particles that could be handled or inhaled.

So if you end up with "Joe Handyman" to scrape and paint your house, and he does not follow these practices, a) he is liable for the $32,500/day fine, and runs the risk of bringing home clothing full of lead dust, that gets distributed all over his own house when he comes home and sits down for a beer. At that point it's all over his car, and even if he takes a shower and changes clothes he's already scattered the dust around his house for his own kids and pets to inhale or even ingest.

Yes it's extra work to do it right, and extra money, but it's the right thing to do for you, your family, and even your neighbors.

[withm]

When you say trim, do you mean the moldings? I think its a lot easier to just replace the moldings. You can use MDF which is cheaper that wood and paint them white. Its a lot easier and safer than messing with lead. Good Luck!

Even if you replace the trim, you are still disturbing the lead paint and creating lead dust.

[jessmarimba]

No offense meant at all, withm, but I wouldn't really rely on the Home Depot test kits. They're really not accurate enough to be worth it (I was a lead inspector for HUD properties for a few years).

[Kiwi Stoker]

As a child I had to be tested for lead poisoning as Dad stripped and repainted the house (this was the 80s). Please for your health, your plants and soils health and your community's health get your paint tested properly first.

[ny biker]

I don't need to have it tested. The odds that they used lead paint back in the '70s are quite high. Last year I spoke to a contractor who does a lot of work in my neighborhood and he said they don't test, they just assume there's lead paint involved.

The only way I would do this myself would be to use the Soy-Gel.

http://www.franmar.com/paint-removal...-urethane.html

"Soy Gel encapsulates the surface of your furniture or floors in its thick gel, preventing lead or other hazardous particles from escaping into the air."

[withm]

No offense meant at all, withm, but I wouldn't really rely on the Home Depot test kits. They're really not accurate enough to be worth it (I was a lead inspector for HUD properties for a few years).

Well I DID say "at the very least" ...

I agree they are not 100% accurate, on the other hand, they are readily available and may provide a starting point when considering to do this work yourself or to hire a professional.

I work for a general contractor, who is EPA certified to perform lead safe work practices and all of our field employees have had formal training in the EPA mandated lead safe work practices.

[laura*]

I don't need to have it tested. The odds that they used lead paint back in the '70s are quite high. Last year I spoke to a contractor who does a lot of work in my neighborhood and he said they don't test, they just assume there's lead paint involved.

I wouldn't be that pessimistic about the odds!

The house I did most of my growing up in was built in 1973. (It has long since been sold on to other owners.) I'd say that the odds of that house having any lead paint are exceedingly low: All interior trim, doors, windows, and etc. were stained. Even the outside siding was stained. The only painted surfaces were the interior walls (in standard flat white) and garage doors.

If your condo was fully renovated, perhaps they followed similar design rules where no interior trim was painted. Remember, the '70's were still in the "back to earthy natural things" era where visible wood grain was desirable.

On the other hand, you imply the trim is from the '70's. It is probably not worth saving. I'm with jyyanks in suggesting that you replace it instead of trying to strip it. But as withm said, even removal/replacement will still disturb lead paint if any is present.

[jessmarimba]

Well I DID say "at the very least" ...

I agree they are not 100% accurate, on the other hand, they are readily available and may provide a starting point when considering to do this work yourself or to hire a professional.

I work for a general contractor, who is EPA certified to perform lead safe work practices and all of our field employees have had formal training in the EPA mandated lead safe work practices.

Per the CPSC: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08038.html

[withm]

Per the CPSC: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08038.html

Since this website is not responding perhaps you'll provide the gist of this?

[bmccasland]

Maybe I've watched too much Holmes on Homes - but what about asbestos? I didn't know it was used in plaster, but that's one of the places he's found it (drywall taping compound too).

[Blueberry]

Since this website is not responding perhaps you'll provide the gist of this?

Link works for me. Headline is something along the lines of home test kits unreliable.

[ny biker]

So, I put the same question out on our neighborhood yahoo group (the whole neighborhood consists of garden-style condos and townhouses that were built in the '40s and renovated in the '70s when it all went condo) to find out about others' experience. So far I'm being told it's easier and less expensive to replace the trim. One person wound up removing something like 7 layers of paint, and she said it didn't really look good when she was done.

It's easy enough to replace the mouldings around the base of the walls, but looking at the trim around the doors, it all appears to be part of of the door frame, rather than just being attached to the wall around the doors. I fear this could get complicated.

I already have bought new hinges for all the doors, to replace the nasty rusted crooked painted hinges that are already there. So now I guess I need to figure out if I'm replacing all the frames or just the trim around them.

[bmccasland]

Seems to me, it's easier to just replace the trim around the doors. If you replace the frames, won't you have to re-hang the doors, which could be a PITA (unless they're crooked and you want them straight).

Trim comes pre-primed which will help with the painting. ;)

[ny biker]

Seems to me, it's easier to just replace the trim around the doors. If you replace the frames, won't you have to re-hang the doors, which could be a PITA (unless they're crooked and you want them straight).

Trim comes pre-primed which will help with the painting. ;)

But when I look at it, it appears the trim is part of the frame, so I don't know if it can be replaced without replacing the whole frame.

Either way, the doors are coming off so the hinges can be replaced. Some of the doors are crooked, and I don't know how much work it will be to fix that. I haven't called the handyman in to look at it yet.

[withm]

Per the CPSC: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml08/08038.html

OK I've been able to look at this link now from my home computer. For some reason I could not access the CPSC site from work.

It is worth noting that the CPSC press release is dated 2007. Certainly there have been a lot of technological advances across the board since then. Making only generalized statements, the CPSC does not identify the "unreliable" kits, nor does it discuss the difference between detecting lead in paint vs any lead at all.

The current EPA regulations went into effect in 2008. The EPA has gone so far as to specify (Aug. 2011) 3 home lead test kits that are in fact 95% reliable, and have charged all EPA certified contractors with the task of using these very same kits to test for the presence of lead paint prior to starting any renovations that would disturb said lead paint.

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/lead/pubs/testkit.htm
http://www.epa.gov/oppt/lead/pubs/testkitfactsheet.pdf

One of the 3 kits is only available to contractors licensed in the state of Mass. The other two are readily available, and not too expesive. The 3M kit runs around $25, for 8 tests at Home Depot.

If you live in an older house, built before 1978, and you are contemplating stripping paint by any means I would urge you to use one of these test kits to ascertain if you do in fact have lead paint present. If you determine no lead is present, by all means go ahead and proceed with your plans.

But if the test does indicate lead, please, please do not mess with this stuff. Hire a qualified contractor who can do the job safely without risk to himself, to you, your family, and even to your neighbors.

Again, I refer you to the Renovate Right publication issued by the EPA which goes into more detail about which homes are likely to contain lead paint (basically the older the home, the greater the liklihood).

Consider that 87% of homes built before 1940 are likely to have lead paint present.
For homes built between 1940-1960 that risk drops to 69%
And it falls to 24% for homes built between 1960 and 1978.

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovaterightbrochure.pdf

In 1978 it became illegal to sell lead based paint. It was not illegal to use the lead paint that a painter or other contractor might already have stockpiled in his warehouse.

It goes without saying that ultimately you could be held responsible and liable for the safety of all of the other players should a lead exposure be traced back to your project. Granted, it's a long shot, but still you want to do the right thing.

OK, I'm off the soap box now. Please be careful out there.