Is there a realtor in the house? (semantics: finished vs. unfinished space)

[zoom-zoom]

I will preface this with NEVER again will I ever willingly own a house that is older than I am. Not unless there are some very exceptional circumstances (like someone else has done all the work updating it and bringing insulation and windows and electrical and plumbing and foundation and everything else up to snuff. And removed all carpeting).

We have owned a circa 1920s house for nearly 12 years. We purchased it with the intent of fixing it up and building on land we previously owned. We never intended to live here long. Hubby made lots of promises re: projects he wanted to do himself and he got a good start on many of them, but for the last 6 years or so we have lived in a kitchen that is only about 2/3 complete and have several rooms with no trim. He refuses to buy any of this stuff stock, instead fancies himself to be a carpenter. Ugh. I would have been perfectly happy with Ikea cabinets. He wouldn't have it.

He's finally sick of the 60 minute round-trip commute, especially as our kid attends school down near his work and it's really difficult for us to be very active in his school or get our son together with his friends when some of them live an hour away (charter Montessori school that draws kids from several counties). Our favorite LBS and their daily shop rides are also an hour away from our current residence, but if we moved 45 minutes South of here we'd be 15 minutes from DS's school, DH's work, and our favorite bike shop (as well as more job opportunities for me without an hour commute each way). So we've got a fire under us to get this place sellable in the next year or two. We have a LOT of work to do before that is doable.

Biggest issue our house has is NO storage. I mean, the entire freaking 1550 sq. ft. house has ONE tiny closet. That's it. The basement is only partial (the part accessible from inside the house used to be coal storage and is now home to litter boxes for 4 cats and the other part is entered from outside. Neither are habitable for anything but spiders). Our upstairs is essentially converted attic space (the ceilings are literally 6.5' tall--I can stand flat-footed and touch them without any issue...and I am <5'4" and have short arms). DS's room is up there and is the largest room in the house. The other 2 rooms are TINY and have severely sloped ceilings that reach to or almost to the floor. One room has space for a twin bed and that is it--no room for so much as a single dresser or wardrobe.

Our plan is to convert the larger of the small rooms into a bedroom for DS, then we will convert his room into a room for us. Our bedroom is currently a room off of the living room on the main floor (the only room with a closet). There is a shallow, but semi-wide nook outside of DS's current bedroom that we can convert to a closet, fortunately. Our current bedroom will become our living room, then our living room will become our dining area. Our current dining area is basically a glorified hallway and having even our small table in there is a major PITA, since the room has 5 entrances (living room, sunroom/office, kitchen, stairs, bathroom). To get anywhere in the house one has to walk around the damned table. So that room we'll convert into a library of sorts. The entire house was apparently laid out by someone with half a brain (on a good day).

Long story short, we're wondering how to handle the tiny room that we plan to dedicate to storage. I'm of the mind that we should gut it and return it as much as possible to a rough attic, that way prospective buyers will see that the house is really a 2 bedroom house with attic space, rather than a 3 bedroom house with no storage space. When we bought the house it was actually marketed as a 4 bedroom house, which is really friggin' dumb, since it only has one cramped bathroom. No one really looking for a house with 4 formal bedrooms would have had any interest in a small house without more than 1 toilet.

The hallway separating the rooms is already pretty gutted, since we had to tear up the carpeting from the previous owner's cat using it as a litter box. We'll be tearing out all of the carpeting upstairs, as we have already done downstairs. Downstairs we have pine plank flooring, upstairs we plan to keep it simple and use porch paint on plywood. That way the next owners will have an easy time laying their own choice of flooring and we will have something that will work for us in the short term (apparently some people actually do painted plywood as their permanent flooring and I have seen some neat things done with different color patterns).

Hubby thinks we should leave the storage room alone, including carpeting. I'd just as soon have that allergen breeding ground gone.

Anyone been through a similar renovation process prior to selling or have any insight to how a scenario like this one would play out in terms of what a realtor would recommend?

Here are some shots I took of the rooms the other day. Mind you, the smaller room is mostly full of empty electronics boxes. 2/3 of what is in the larger of the 2 rooms belongs to my pack-rat spouse. I've finally talked him into throwing out the majority of his 20+ year old shoes, including the pair that are duct-taped all around the toe-box. :rolleyes:

Larger room -- future kid's room (we're hoping the wallpaper only goes 2 layers deep...eek!). There is a window immediately to the left in the first photo. 2nd photo is looking into the hall and the tiny room:
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-8D9NNW4/0/O/i-8D9NNW4.jpg

Itty Bitty Room...I'd like to see the carpet out of this one, as it will be dedicated "attic" space:
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-jvRPqQx/0/O/i-jvRPqQx.jpg

[laura*]

Hmmm, which common house plan could this be...

(I grew up in SW Michigan.)

I assume your upstairs is a T shape, with gable ends at each tip of the T, and a (nearly) flat roofed bump out along the top of the T. The big room is at the base of the T, the itty bitty room is the left half of the top of the T, and DS's future room is the right half. Further, the base of the T has the tallest gable and points to the street, and the bump out overlooks the back yard. Yes, no?

I suspect the bump out might have been just a gable end originally. Also, you might be able to have a normal ceiling height in the hall.

How about moving the door to DS's bedroom into the hall, thus combining the two rooms. I think the door could swing into the bedroom against a former hall wall and not block anything. Then configure the itty bitty room as a closet and computer nook for DS.

I see no point in definishing the itty bitty room. Livable space would be better than totally unfinished attic.

You probably want some sort of proper flooring upstairs. Carpet is probably the cheapest option. It'll also feel warm on cold Michigan mornings. A hard surface upstairs might be very noisy downstairs.

[Blueberry]

I will preface this with NEVER again will I ever willingly own a house that is older than I am. Not unless there are some very exceptional circumstances (like someone else has done all the work updating it and bringing insulation and windows and electrical and plumbing and foundation and everything else up to snuff. And removed all carpeting).

I could have written this - we are getting ready to put our 1912 house on the market:eek::eek: As in by the 2nd week in March. As far as the closet space, we're a little better off - 3 tiny actual closets and 2 that were built in later - plus a pantry. However, we're doing what everyone in our neighborhood does - which is putting all of our cr@p in storage prior to putting the house on the market. That way, the lack of closet space doesn't manifest itself in stuff all over the place that makes it look cluttered. People also make generous use of wardrobes here - and that's never been an issue.

I'm not a realtor, but I've been spending a lot of time talking to them. I actually started talking to some of them *last* year. Most of them are very willing to talk through things with you - and that way you know what the real estate agent market looks like once you start trying to actually get the house on the market. You might want to talk to them about putting the house on the market as is too - if you could afford to sell it for less. Sometimes (at least here), bargain hunters will snap them up.

ETA: I would definitely talk to someone before you spend $$ converting upstairs to anything. *In my locality*, 6'5" ceilings aren't up to code and therefore can't be counted in square footage. So, they don't count for appraisals, financing, etc. You might not get much value if that is the case for you too.

Good luck!

[zoom-zoom]

Hmmm, which common house plan could this be...

(I grew up in SW Michigan.)

I assume your upstairs is a T shape, with gable ends at each tip of the T, and a (nearly) flat roofed bump out along the top of the T. The big room is at the base of the T, the itty bitty room is the left half of the top of the T, and DS's future room is the right half. Further, the base of the T has the tallest gable and points to the street, and the bump out overlooks the back yard. Yes, no?

I suspect the bump out might have been just a gable end originally. Also, you might be able to have a normal ceiling height in the hall.

How about moving the door to DS's bedroom into the hall, thus combining the two rooms. I think the door could swing into the bedroom against a former hall wall and not block anything. Then configure the itty bitty room as a closet and computer nook for DS.

I see no point in definishing the itty bitty room. Livable space would be better than totally unfinished attic.

You probably want some sort of proper flooring upstairs. Carpet is probably the cheapest option. It'll also feel warm on cold Michigan mornings. A hard surface upstairs might be very noisy downstairs.

Ha, you pretty closely described our upstairs floorplan. I never realized it was that common! :eek:

We'd actually considered seeing if we could knock out the wall between the larger room and the hallway and making it a really nicely-sized room with a walk-in closet (the smaller room), but we're at the point where we aren't going to do ANYTHING that involves knocking out walls or building new ones. I doubt we would do carpeting, either, though. The previous owners of this place put in the lowest-rent carpeting before selling it to us and we had it out within 2 years. It was just awful. If the next owners want to put in carpet, they can, but I'm not going to make that decision for them.

I think we'll probably not do anything to unfinish that smaller room. I've asked a few other people and generally people are suggesting that it's not necessary to list a room as storage, rather than bedroom.

[Sky King]

Ask yourself these things

1. what attracted you to the house when you bought it, chances are those things will also attract someone else

2. How much are you comfortable spending and if you do spend, does it equate to a higher sales price - this can be very tricky in today's housing market

3. What are you willing to do to make the home sales ready - ie) Be prepared to put a huge amount of your belongings in storage - off site. Buyers rarely have the ability to see beyond the clutter

4. Be realistic and do visit with some realtors, again, what is the market, what is the average sales price for a home like yours.

5. Many times, it doesn't pencil to spend several thousands of dollars to make your home purchase ready. Money is better spent cleaning, storing and staging the home for sale.

Good luck!

[zoom-zoom]

I could have written this - we are getting ready to put our 1912 house on the market:eek::eek: As in by the 2nd week in March. As far as the closet space, we're a little better off - 3 tiny actual closets and 2 that were built in later - plus a pantry. However, we're doing what everyone in our neighborhood does - which is putting all of our cr@p in storage prior to putting the house on the market. That way, the lack of closet space doesn't manifest itself in stuff all over the place that makes it look cluttered. People also make generous use of wardrobes here - and that's never been an issue.

I'm not a realtor, but I've been spending a lot of time talking to them. I actually started talking to some of them *last* year. Most of them are very willing to talk through things with you - and that way you know what the real estate agent market looks like once you start trying to actually get the house on the market. You might want to talk to them about putting the house on the market as is too - if you could afford to sell it for less. Sometimes (at least here), bargain hunters will snap them up.

ETA: I would definitely talk to someone before you spend $$ converting upstairs to anything. *In my locality*, 6'5" ceilings aren't up to code and therefore can't be counted in square footage. So, they don't count for appraisals, financing, etc. You might not get much value if that is the case for you too.

Good luck!

Yup, we're actually planning a trip to Ikea for wardrobes and dressers in a month or two. We've talked about the storage unit thing, too--because of the "nowhere to put crap" issue.

I wonder about the ceiling height issue. When we bought the upstairs was included in the square footage. I hope that's not changed. Wow, I think our downstairs is maybe 900 sq. ft...geez....

[zoom-zoom]

Ask yourself these things

1. what attracted you to the house when you bought it, chances are those things will also attract someone else

2. How much are you comfortable spending and if you do spend, does it equate to a higher sales price - this can be very tricky in today's housing market

3. What are you willing to do to make the home sales ready - ie) Be prepared to put a huge amount of your belongings in storage - off site. Buyers rarely have the ability to see beyond the clutter

4. Be realistic and do visit with some realtors, again, what is the market, what is the average sales price for a home like yours.

5. Many times, it doesn't pencil to spend several thousands of dollars to make your home purchase ready. Money is better spent cleaning, storing and staging the home for sale.

Good luck!

1. I was ovulating the egg that would become our son...I am so not kidding on this one. We blame him for the purchase of this place. :p We do love the yard. It's the biggest lot in the neighborhood and when we saw it it was lush and green. It's very shaded, though, so we really want to work on curb appeal to plant as many things as we can that will grow AND not be deer food (we've given up on hostas...aka "deer salad). We've spent so much over the years on stuff that gets eaten or can't thrive in the shade. After lots of trial and error we need to simply plant lots of the few things that do thrive (ferns, lamium, myrtle, bleeding hearts).

2. I'm not convinced doing major $$ renovations would be of much use. I think just updating the rooms simply will go further.

3. Yeah, we've talked about the storage unit thing and probably would go that route, at least with anything that we'd need to put in that storage room.

4. Definitely. We want to set our place apart from the similar listings out there.

5. I think this is the key. This is why we don't want to spend $$ on new flooring upstairs or trying to build-in wardrobes. Anything we buy from Ikea we can take with us, but they will look nice and keep clutter down while the house is on the market. I'm loving Overstock.com for things like window coverings and art, too.

[Sky King]

We sold our 1939 cottage last July. We opted not to put any more money into it. We just made sure the yard was always neat, the flowers watered and we focused on simple, sparse and clean (rented a storage unit) Wish we had an Ikea close but then again they are so dangerous :) Now I have no yard, no pets and live above our shop - when the kids were home for Christmas our son had to sleep behind a makeshift wall(bike boxes) in the shop but I love the lock and go freedom

[Trek420]

If I was trying to sell I'd get rid of the wall paper. Even if you find a buyer who likes tiny floral patterns (and in most cases you need an entire family who agrees they like the pattern :o) it's dark, busy and makes the space look smaller.

Speaking of paint: light colors "bounce light" and make spaces look bigger. The door at the bottom left, paint that too.

The swatch of dark vertical paneling in the bottom left photo? Gotta go. All these lines, like the bottom left room is fairly neutral but has the trim that's a different color? Gotta go.

So pick one nice, neutral, bright white or off white and paint paint paint paint.

Window treatments: Those dark curtains have got to go. The ones on the bottom left side which appear to be hung off a rack style of thingybopper. You see how the edges of the structure touch the walls? It just emphasises the small space. If only in that room you've got to find a different way to hang curtains or it's curtains for your sale :p

Hint: shiny things bounce light and make rooms seem bigger. I'd look for new curtain rods like brushed chrome. Makes buyers say "ooooh, shiny shiny." ;)

Look for window treatments that are light, bright, simple, clean lines. Consider replacing the lace ones too.

To paint you're going to need to clear the space. I'd declutter ruthlessly. If you don't actually touch it every single day, gotta go.

Imagine the space spare, bare, practically Spartan, with clean lines, lots of light and light colors it will look much bigger. Often that's all it takes to make buyers say "yes".

So my plan would be to de'clutter, clean and prep and paint (Hold off on the carpet decision till that's done. At minimum it's a tarp ;)), then accessorize with spare, simple lines.

Trek ~ CCA class of '83 ~ 420

[Blueberry]

I wonder about the ceiling height issue. When we bought the upstairs was included in the square footage. I hope that's not changed. Wow, I think our downstairs is maybe 900 sq. ft...geez....

I have a friend who has a house in a similar situation. When she and her DH split, she was able to afford the house because the entire upstairs wasn't up to code and therefore countable (6.5' ceilings). Now, she is getting ready to put her house on the market and is running into the same issue. I think her downstairs is 850-ish, and her upstairs add about 400?

[zoom-zoom]

If I was trying to sell I'd get rid of the wall paper. Even if you find a buyer who likes tiny floral patterns (and in most cases you need an entire family who agrees they like the pattern :o) it's dark, busy and makes the space look smaller.

Speaking of paint: light colors "bounce light" and make spaces look bigger. The door at the bottom left, paint that too.

The swatch of dark vertical paneling in the bottom left photo? Gotta go. All these lines, like the bottom left room is fairly neutral but has the trim that's a different color? Gotta go.

So pick one nice, neutral, bright white or off white and paint paint paint paint.

Window treatments: Those dark curtains have got to go. The ones on the bottom left side which appear to be hung off a rack style of thingybopper. You see how the edges of the structure touch the walls? It just emphasises the small space. If only in that room you've got to find a different way to hang curtains or it's curtains for your sale :p

Hint: shiny things bounce light and make rooms seem bigger. I'd look for new curtain rods like brushed chrome. Makes buyers say "ooooh, shiny shiny." ;)

Look for window treatments that are light, bright, simple, clean lines. Consider replacing the lace ones too.

To paint you're going to need to clear the space. I'd declutter ruthlessly. If you don't actually touch it every single day, gotta go.

Imagine the space spare, bare, practically Spartan, with clean lines, lots of light and light colors it will look much bigger. Often that's all it takes to make buyers say "yes".

So my plan would be to de'clutter, clean and prep and paint (Hold off on the carpet decision till that's done. At minimum it's a tarp ;)), then accessorize with spare, simple lines.

Trek ~ CCA class of '83 ~ 420

The tiny room is actually not wallpapered, that's paneling. We'll probably just paint it white. We have a LOT of painted paneling in this house...I actually like the look of it. What appears to be brown paneling is a box or something. and the curtain is hanging off a rod...that's a free-standing clothes hanger thingy that we need to toss.

The room with the hideous layers of pink floral wallpaper will be totally gutted, as that will be DS's room until we sell. Hopefully the paper only runs 2 layers deep. We plan to paint that room a very light green. The white curtains would not work for sleeping, anyhow. And the dark ones in the other room will be tossed. I'm thinking we'll put bamboo shades in there...something to let in light, but still be a window covering.

Definitely going to look at storage units at some point.

[ny biker]

Set your DVR to HGTV on Tuesday and Wednesday mornings for 3 episodes of The Unsellables and Get it Sold. They're on from 10:00 - 11:30 am eastern time, so I guess an hour earlier for you.

You won't need to watch many episodes to see what you need to do.

For starters, you need to get rid of a lot of stuff.

[Trek420]

We plan to paint that room a very light green. ... I'm thinking we'll put bamboo shades in there ...

A very light green could work and with the bamboo shades and could be a sweet retreat for DS. I'd still use neutral bright whites on the rest and maybe use matching subtle hints of the light green in accessories when you stage the place to show and sell.

That way buyers come into the home, see a vase, a matching picture frame ... walk into the room and "ah, makes sense".

[zoom-zoom]

Set your DVR to HGTV on Tuesday and Wednesday mornings for 3 episodes of The Unsellables and Get it Sold. They're on from 10:00 - 11:30 am eastern time, so I guess an hour earlier for you.

You won't need to watch many episodes to see what you need to do.

For starters, you need to get rid of a lot of stuff.

Yep, a lot of the "stuff" in the photos is already gone. So many college textbooks and notebooks (DH's), random junk, Natl. Geos (why did we keep these?!), stupid wedding gifts like silver picture frames and cut glass bowls...fugly, toys, baby stuff, etc.

Setting my DVR...you say that like I actually own a DVR. ;) I may have to try to watch those when they air (MI is eastern, so the times would be right). Or see if they're available on iTunes...

[Trek420]

For starters, you need to get rid of a lot of stuff.

Between making room for my remodel and now getting ready to move I've donated lots of stuff. I really could not be bothered to list on Craigs, do the yard sale thing ... Just kept the receipts of the donation and keep track in:

http://www.itsdeductible.com/

Really helped my refund this and last year. :)

[zoom-zoom]

Between making room for my remodel and now getting ready to move I've donated lots of stuff. I really could not be bothered to list on Craigs, do the yard sale thing ... Just kept the receipts of the donation and keep track in:

http://www.itsdeductible.com/

Really helped my refund this and last year. :)

Ha, yeah...years ago we did a yard sale and I said NEVER again! Ugh, what a lot of work that was. I'd much rather itemize a list of things donated and then take the receipt. Or, heck, just even give it away to be done with it. We are finally getting around to selling our Denby stoneware, though. It got to where each broken piece was too $$ to replace and I like the much cheaper Fiestaware stuff better, anyhow.

[Koronin]

When I sold my house close to 2 years ago I had to put a ton of stuff into storage, and that house actually had decent storage. (It was built in 2001.)

[GLC1968]

If you don't want similiar issues, you need a house MUCH younger than you are!

Ours is only a year older than me (1967), but we too are fixing it up to list and wow, the things you find... We do have a ton of storage thanks to a basement and some renovations done by the previous owners, but there are a lot of hidden problems due to those renovations where they cut every single corner they could find. Luckily, the original house is solid and well-constructed...otherwise, we'd probably be living in rubble right now! We are currently without a fully working bathroom (we have two and both are partially down for the count...again) and we will be paying to replace the roof before we list. Ouch.

I don't have a ton of advice except that watching those HGTV shows are a big help. So is even watching 'House Hunters' and listening to the things the buyers are saying about the houses they view. You can learn a lot about how things are perceived!

[laura*]

The entire house was apparently laid out by someone with half a brain (on a good day).

It was designed for different needs and customs.


Wow, I think our downstairs is maybe 900 sq. ft...geez....

Aah-yup! It was built as a two bedroom house. The attic upstairs was the storage area - probably meant to be filled with steamer trunks and such. Hence, there's no storage on the main level.


Our current dining area is basically a glorified hallway and having even our small table in there is a major PITA, since the room has 5 entrances (living room, sunroom/office, kitchen, stairs, bathroom). To get anywhere in the house one has to walk around the damned table.

The dining area would have contained a stove of some sort. It provided heat and cooking. The area now take up by your kitchen, bathroom, and sunroom/office would have been the second bedroom and a pantry. The "bathroom" was out in the back yard.


we aren't going to do ANYTHING that involves knocking out walls or building new ones.

If that's the case, then why do the bedroom shuffle? If you need to vacate rooms to renovate them, then the shuffle makes sense, but otherwise not. Right now you could claim three bedrooms - one downstairs, two upstairs, an office, and an itty bitty storage room.

[zoom-zoom]

It was designed for different needs and customs.



Aah-yup! It was built as a two bedroom house. The attic upstairs was the storage area - probably meant to be filled with steamer trunks and such. Hence, there's no storage on the main level.



The dining area would have contained a stove of some sort. It provided heat and cooking. The area now take up by your kitchen, bathroom, and sunroom/office would have been the second bedroom and a pantry. The "bathroom" was out in the back yard.



If that's the case, then why do the bedroom shuffle? If you need to vacate rooms to renovate them, then the shuffle makes sense, but otherwise not. Right now you could claim three bedrooms - one downstairs, two upstairs, an office, and an itty bitty storage room.

The house was definitely designed by short people. The tallest room in the house only has 7' ceilings. Hubby used to hit his head coming down the stairs when we first bought the house. At 6'2" he's not excessively tall, either.

Yep, bathroom and rear mudroom entryway were definitely not original parts of the house. We're pretty certain that the sunroom was not original, either.

We do have to vacate rooms to repaint and do trim and finish some flooring, so rearranging rooms won't be a big deal. Our living room is currently too small for us to ride our bikes on the indoor trainers without taking one part of our (stupid) sectional sofa and putting it in an odd part of the room. Because our current bedroom only has one entrance we can put the sofa in that room in such a way that we have more room to use our bikes indoors or do other indoor workouts with weights and yoga ball. I'll also be able to store my workout gear in that closet, instead of shoved in a corner and looking unsightly.