Two question: Look pedal float and pedaling out of the saddle

[pll]

I have two somewhat related questions. Over the last couple of months, my ITBs have been unhappy, mostly, I believe, the result of long time neglect. I never knew how to stretch them. This week, after a run on Tuesday, my left ITB flared up... so, my questions are:

1. Would a cleat with more float on my Look Keo pedals be better for my ITBs? I can replace the cleats, but I'm not inclined to spend on a new pedal (I like the Keos a lot). Currently I have the gray cleats, with 4.5 degrees of float, and could go for the red ones, with 9 degrees of float. In another thread (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=46326), I saw Wahine mentioned the float in the Look style pedals, so I am curious now.

2. In several threads, I have read people suggesting that pedaling out of the saddle on the trainer is not good for the knees. Perhaps it is just "jumping" up and down? I tend to spend a little time out of the saddle when working on on the trainer, just for a different position. What is the consensus?

[ridebikeme]

I'm not using Look pedals(use Campy) but have had MANY knee problems since college. At any rate, I like many. tend to do out of the saddle work, and have been since the 80's. I truly think that the solution is to stretch the ITB, as it is a common problem for cyclists and triathletes. I'm also from the old school, where I think we all need to have a solid foundation of riding BEFORE we start to put huge amounts of effort on the bike, whether outside or on the trainer.

I'm not sure whether this helps you or not, but I think I'd concentrate on stretching before changing pedals. If there's an issue already, I'm not convinced that a new pedal will alleviate the problem.

If you're unable to find some stretches, please let me know and I'll email some to you.( as best as I can via the internet) Good luck and definitely keep us informed.


http://chasecyclery.blogspot.com

[pll]

Thank you! I am getting physical therapy, stretching the ITB and working on strengthening other muscles. The flare ups are during running, but the latest one has me worried.

[ridebikeme]

Good luck with your physical therapy! I would also tend to think that a pedal with more float will only make the problem worse, at least until the stretching and increasing muscle strength starts to help the problem. But, you could ask your PT about the situation as well.

Take care!:rolleyes:



http://chasecyclery.blogspot.com

[Seajay]

It's worth asking if you are in the center of the float for the grey cleats.

Imagine your regular foot position...you want to have freedom to move BOTH directions with your heel from there. If your cleat is twisted too much to one side, perhaps you are "bumping up against" one side and could use more movement to that side.

There is also the school of thought that says you may not have enough forefoot support. Thus your knee would be following the "collapse" of your forefoot each pedal stroke. This perhaps causes the IT band to "strum" over the lateral femoral condyle causing inflammation.
Google "Cleat Wedges"

Either way you will have to heal up from the current inflammation before you will be able to tell if any of the above are helping. I'm a fan of a little ibupr and a lot of ice. But your PT would be the best source of information here.


Hope this helps a bit.

[kizmet]

Thank you! I am getting physical therapy, stretching the ITB and working on strengthening other muscles. The flare ups are during running, but the latest one has me worried.

My boyfriend had this problem last year. Started with the running, then got bad enough that it was bothering him on the bike. Plagued him for about 8 months after a TON of physio, massage, stretching, strengthening, etc.

What he eventually discovered the problem to be was his running form. He was a loper, over-strider, heel-striker and his cadence was too low. This was putting a huge strain on his legs, from feet through hips. One visit to a running coach confirmed his suspicions and he was advised to take more, shorter strides and aim for a running cadence of 85-90 steps (per leg) per minute, and do a few running drills. With the aid of a footpod for his garmin he set an alarm to warn him when he was out of that range. Since then his ITB issue has cleared up.

I have no idea what your form is like, but it might be worth taking a look at since it can be a major factor (especially when you've tried everything else!)

I've been there too and it's not fun... I wish you the BEST of luck figuring this out!

[OakLeaf]

True.

I prefer the black zero float cleats - take the time to find my correct alignment and stay in it - but with the grey ones, you do get some torque even when you're in the float zone.



Also be sure you're doing plenty of glute strength work - stretching the ITB area isn't going to be enough if you keep stressing it by making the thigh muscles do the butt's work.

[Wahine]

In general, IT band sysndrome is one of those conditions that tells you pretty quickly when you've done something to irritate it. If you're noticing IT band pain after running, your energy would be best spent trying to figure out what it is you are doing while you are running that is making it worse. If you're not having pain riding, I doubt that changing your float will change your symptoms much. But I do agree with what others have said here about checking that you are in the center of the float and also that you are not collapsing inward through the forefoot.

Stretching the muslces that attach to the IT band and using a foam roller are the best ways to address tightness issues related to this problem.

The most common form related problems that irritate the IT band a lot are:

1) over striding out in front which usually comes with heel striking.
2) crossing over in front at initial contact with the ground (this is really bad if you are also doing #1)
3) collapsing inward through the hip/knee/foot when you are fully weight bearing on the leg (can also occur in combination with 1 and 2)

I'm going to head over to the running forum and start a new thread with some information about running form and the drills to correct them.

[Seajay]

Also be sure you're doing plenty of glute strength work - stretching the ITB area isn't going to be enough if you keep stressing it by making the thigh muscles do the butt's work.

I've read that a tight Psoas can lead to weak glutes. Thus Thigh doing the glutes work. They called it "dead butt syndrome"
Also, I've had really good luck stretching "figure 4" to get those really tight upper leg, low glutes areas.
Oakleaf or Wahine can you verify the Psoas thing and recommend any other specific stretches for Piriformis or ITB?

[Wahine]

Weak glutes are definitely a contributer to the whole muscle imbalance patterns, and a tight psoas often comes together with weak glutes. Tight tensor fascia lata (TFL) is part of that pattern too.

My favorite hip flexor (TFL and psoas stretch) is here (http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_hip_flexorstretch.htm).

Turn out stretches are also really helpful such as the figure 4 stretch or this (http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/2477) and also this (http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/863) pose in yoga.

[pll]

Thank you gals!

Wahine: I believe your #3 (collapsing inward) is the main culprit, given the exercises I have been given by the PT. I don't believe #1 is not significant, except that I feel it happens to me more on a treadmill and my last run was on the treadmill. At physical therapy, they are also working my glutes and, during the last session on Friday, I got an exercise for my core.

ETA: Of the stretches, I do the figure 4 regularly, as well as the hip flexor stretch. The 'fire log' pose is easy, while the pigeon one is challenging (and I am not sure where I should feel a stretch).

[Wahine]

I just came across this (http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/workout/thighs/exercises/stretching-hip-flexors/) stretch which shows the modification I like to add to the kneeling hip flexor stretch I posted above. It gets your torso involved which helps to address the psoas since it attaches to the vertebae of the lumbar spine.

[pll]

I just came across this (http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/workout/thighs/exercises/stretching-hip-flexors/) stretch which shows the modification I like to add to the kneeling hip flexor stretch I posted above. It gets your torso involved which helps to address the psoas since it attaches to the vertebae of the lumbar spine.

That variation really helped the stretch. Thanks!

[OakLeaf]

I just came across this (http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/workout/thighs/exercises/stretching-hip-flexors/) stretch which shows the modification I like to add to the kneeling hip flexor stretch I posted above. It gets your torso involved which helps to address the psoas since it attaches to the vertebae of the lumbar spine.

That's pretty much the same as the one my PT has me doing, except I do it standing with a foot on a step stool or bench.

I've read and heard so much about knee injuries in Pigeon pose - although [touch wood] it doesn't seem to stress my knees, what are your thoughts on that?

[ridebikeme]

You definitely have been given some great advice/suggestions here. Another source of ITB on the bike is that quite often the hip opposite the issue drops forward on the bike.

At any rate, I'm glad that others were able to give you some suggestions....and especially the stretching from Wahine!!


Good luck with everything!;)