another bike date... he neglected to mention...

[bikerchick68]

So the whole online thing has suddenly taken off for me... I had SIX dates last week :eek: Two were repeats (2nd dates! Yeah... I'm no longer the "one date wonder"!!!!)

So one guy I met on Thursday... we had already agreed to ride Sat but wanted to meet BEFORE the ride for coffee... so we meet and spend several hours talking... everything's going well... we talk bikes, components, gear etc... then he casually throws out there that he did Ironman a few years ago :eek: :eek: :eek: OMG! Now I'm scared... really, really scared... he's gonna KILL me on the bike! :( I make him promise not to drop me, and he agrees... (the last guy who promised dropped me anyway! :mad: the one before that I rode 9mph with so I DIDN'T drop him!)

So we meet Sat and had decided to do about 30 miles... ahem... yeah, well that turned into 47... :D This guy was SO cool... he did NOT drop me, and yes, he could have... but we stayed together, chatted, he told me I'm a sandbagger cause I rode faster than I claimed (a little self preservation on my part telling him I was slow... ya know... just in case!) and generally had a good ride...

so we SAG at 30 miles in and then start the last 20... into a STRONG headwind... gasp... NOW I'm truly slow! The wind was stinkin' HOWLING! LOL...

just before we rode back to where we'd parked we caught a red light... I told him he could "put another notch in his seatpost, cause he wore my butt out!" :eek: :D First time I heard him truly belly laugh!

No idea if he's interested in anything more than friendship and a ride buddy, but dang it was fun!

Tonight is date #3 with another guy too... :)

So how's everyone else doing???

[Lise]

Ah, bikerchick, you're giving me hope! He sounds like a cool guy, and you're cool for going at it with all you've got.

I've signed back up with match.com, and now can't access their website for love or money. I've spent untold hours talking with people in India, trying to resolve the computer problem. Don't know what the solution will be, but trying not to take it as a message from above that I'm not meant to date! :rolleyes: So how are you meeting these guys? Somewhere in a post on here, the point was made about competitiveness on biking dates. I went on one biking date yeeeeears ago. I remember just riding as hard as I could, dropping my date. This was a bad move, date wise! :p It did make it clear to me that I didn't really like this guy, other than the "looking at you from across the room" kind of liking!

Good luck to you--keep us posted on your adventures!

Lise

[Trek420]

bikerchick68 "So how's everyone else doing???"

still single. so ask iron-man guy if he has a sister ;) :cool: :rolleyes:

[KSH]

Hey... I bet he was really hyped to find a lady who cycles!

It's hard for a man to find a women who is into cycling... and being athletic!

AND... Most men's ego's don't like it when women can kick their butts... he was probably very happy to "lag" behind some for you!

Keep giving us the date reports... very cool to hear about it!

[Yasmin]

Sounds really good. Looking forward to hearing your update.

[Trek420]

KSH sez "It's hard for a man to find a women who is into cycling... and being athletic!"

I dunno if it's the national tendency to have so much "screen time" tv, computer, or because I'm hecka old and many of my peers are more or less sedentary, but it's simply hard to find active people dare I say "our" age.

It's not that "the gal o' my dreams" would have to ride but what I've found is that more or less sedentary folk can go quickly from "I would always encourage you to ride" to "what? you wanna ride again? you did that last month".

So in a perfect world the next DP of Trek would know this "comes with the territory", not to be crass but "ya want the legs? I gotta get outside. hopefully, with you".

Wondering if the other single TE gals find that to be true? I think whichever team you bat for it's an issue ;-)

One things certain I'm truly thankful to have a great supportive family. I have a wonderful diverse group of friends who share my values, politics, love of food, art, my quirky sense of humor. They don't ride, heck I can barely get them to walk but they'll gladly join in the recovery meal after. And I have a fabulous community of friends IRL and online who ride and they've got the quirky sense of humor and those other things down pat.

And of course my dog loves me, and that trumps all. So things could be far worse ;-)

"Keep giving us the date reports... very cool to hear about it!"

Thought we were going to get reviews? " I give so-and-so on match.com 5 chain rings". Or is that just tooo tacky? :D

[mtbdarby]

Way to go bikerchick! And if he has a brother send him my way....

I am not doing so well on match (or cycling singles for that matter). Let's see, the one guy I started to click with gave me a feeling he was still married. Yep - do I have a magnet that attracts unavailable guys?? The next guy I talked to on the phone then he changes his profile to a bitter harsh thang and hides it the next day. WTH? My old boyfriend wants to get back together again and I'm thinking maybe that's the way to go. I do have feelings for him and he's a great friend. I've just been so darn hesitant to give my heart to someone else since the love of my life walked out last march. I never would have thought it would take this long to get over him. Just when I think I'm doing fine, he pops back into my head/heart. I'm thinking maybe I just shouldn't be dating at all still. It's really not a priority for me anyway although I do get lonely sometimes. Maybe if I keep rambling I'll figure this out, huh? Anyway, thanks for listening - I've been meaning to get that off my chest for a bit, lol.

[AllezGirl]

Wow...this thread is appropriate! I just had my first real "date" in 8 years with a guy that I met through cyclingsingles.com! We met at a local microbrew and it was one of those evenings where you look at your watch and think WOW...where did the last 4 hours go! He even sent me an email the next day to thank me for the great conversation and said I must look "stunning in lycra" (That comment earned him BIG brownie points!)...so yes I think there will be a second date there! In the meantime, a single guy friend and I have decided to go at this dating thing with a vengance! We are going to help each other set up profiles on Match.com and even try speed dating! I'll keep you posted................... :D

2nd date is official...he called today, we're going to dinner on Friday!

[bikerchick68]

Lise- I'm using Match.com as well... I tried cyclingsingles.com but was only get winks from guys in Timbuktu... how can you "date" someone who lives 300 miles away???

KSH- you're probably right... I have no hope of kicking this guys butt tho :D He said this was only his second ride since June... he's been off the bike. When he said that I was pedaling my azz off and wondering how he rides when he's in shape then! :eek: :p

Trek- man, you're right on... doesn't matter which team... someone is either active and happy with ya or not and annoyed with you for being active! Long rides are time consuming... and an inactive partner may be annoyed that you're "prioritizing" biking and rides over them. It's tough to find that perfect harmony of physical fitness, mental and physical attraction and activity level... if it wasn't, heck, I wouldn't be posting about all my nutty dates... I'd be posting about my SO!

mtbdarby... first of all, as to men who are online when married... JERKS! UGH! I have a real issue with that... I've had lots of guys contact me who are "currently separated"... I have made it a point to acknowledge every person who contacts me and thank them for the interest... the separated guys get the "thank you and when you are DIVORCED let me know..." Yeah, I'm SO not into dating a "tweener"... As to dating your ex... why do you want to? Is it because you really want to be in a relationship with him again, or because you're lonely? Have the reasons for the initial break up been resolved and changed for the better? No need to answer here, just ask yourself that stuff OK? Who knows... maybe things will work out... just be sure why you want back in... I'm with ya... dating is TOUGH!

Allez girl... OMG... HUGE brownie points!!! Stunning in lycra... wow... now for me... I'm always more worried that the guys will be STUNNED by how I look in lycra... :eek: No way to hide any flaws with bike shorts on now is there? LOL... I figure if they like me in bike gear they're gonna LOVE how I look in a dress! :D Have fun at dinner... hope it's GREAT!

[Trek420]

bikerchick68 says "Trek- man, you're right on... doesn't matter which team... someone is either active and happy with ya or not and annoyed with you for being active!"

I dunno about that. I think there are a lot of established happy couples who have divergent interests. I think if the relationship's established, long term and happy and you like different things; you discover cycling and he'd rather knit, it can be fine.

I don't think you have to be attached at the hip, far from it. It's most important that both people have common values.

"Long rides are time consuming... and an inactive partner may be annoyed that you're "prioritizing" biking and rides over them."

You got that right, we're all so busy these days that time can be a biggie. and to a non-rider "you ride how far? :eek: " can be a deal-breaker :cool:

[mtbdarby]

Bikerchick, I have asked myself those questions. In the three months since I broke up with him I simply miss him - miss talking to him, miss biking with him. He has come to understand that it's best if we don't spend all our time together too so I think we stand a better chance this go round. Of course, I could be moving in the next month for my job so it's all up in the air right now. I'm not that lonely that I want to go out with someone just to go out with someone. I enjoy my company too much :D The introvert side of me likes my space and I'm thinking he finally gets that.

Now, if I could get over the cat smell in his house....

[VenusdeVelo]

..from my vantage point...I'll admit it, I am married...so these are great to read. Bikerchick, I think he may be a keeper. No dropping? That's (biker) love :D Well, at least infatuation.

And Trek...I have a sister-in-law who's athletic...does that count?? Living IN Wi...

[Trek420]

LOL that VenusdeVelo writes "And Trek...I have a sister-in-law who's athletic...does that count?? Living IN Wi..."

Thanks, Venus, that's real flattering that you'd even consider introducing me to your family but I'm trying to keep things local ;)

No long distance relationships for me. Bikeless in WI is my sister, she's Norwegian (and married) and now is in WI for a year, I'm in California. Confused yet?

I knew it'd happen, this board is soooo helpfull and supportive, we share tips and and tricks, the odd spare pair of bike shorts or shoes that don't fit so it was only a matter of time till members start reccomending their relatives to the single gals ;-)

and mtbdarby, Fabreeze works wonders on pet smell

[mtbdarby]

Trek, I am a die hard Fabreeze user already! Good schtuf!

[Trek420]

yeah, but what do you do about all the pet hair? Mae's a short haired dog, and gets brushed often, still I could make another dog with all the hair :eek:

Spazzdog taught me a trick that helps some, still a constant battle

[mtbdarby]

Ah, dog hair. My evil nemisis! The first key is almost daily brushing and vacuuming. And two lint brushes :D

My elkhound has an undercoat so she's hanging on to her fur right now. The worst time of year is the summer when she blows her coat. This year we had a week of hot weather, then a cold snap, etc so she didn't blow it, just lost it over a couple of months. What a mess! I'd take any tips I can. My border collie doesn't have an undercoat and looses it pretty consistant all year long.

Long haired dogs are purdy but they're messy. I can't cook a thing without finding dog hair in the food. That's my precursor when serving guests a meal - the dog hair is free!

[Trek420]

squeegies (sp?).

I keep a squeegie on a long handle. I have wall to wall carpeting. Till I get it torn out and go hardwood or pergo or sumthin, that'll make it easier but till then....squeegie the doggie fur into sorta like coke lines of doggie fur (not that I know what those are like) and lift it right up.

Faster and more fur than the vac.

Trek-with-bike-covered-in-yellow-dog-fur-420

[snapdragen]

mtbdarby: Gotta love those double coated dogs! Chloe gets combed with a shed comb regularly. I can get enough fur off her to knit another corgi! My other corgi, Rikki, used to let me vacuum her - made it so much easier. Chloe hates the vacuum monster.

[bikerchick68]

coke lines of dog hair! bwahahahhahaha! OMG too funny...

well... I've heard from the cyclist but ONLY about ride related stuff... no romantic interest that I can tell whatsoever... BUT the other second date guy I've already had a 3rd date with and have another planned next week... it's a Festivus Miracle! :D

[Lise]

OK, now ***I*** have a date! From match.com. A guy who is seriously into fitness, works for a fitness/wellness company, but had back surgery 10 weeks ago and is working on rebuilding muscle...so we're going out for pizza. It's been bitterly cold here anyway. A walk might be OK, but no riding for me, nor, it sounds like, for him right now. Who knows. We had a nice talk for the first time last night...I worry that he'll think I'm not athletic enough, not fit enough, not skinny enough...and if he does, why would I want to date him anyways? Mooooore will be revealed, as a friend says. :rolleyes: L.

[Trek420]

bikerchick68 and "second date guy I've already had a 3rd date with..."

3rd date? too cool. If you two were lesbians there'd be a u-haul by now (I can say that folks) or would that be a bob trailer? :cool: or maybe this trailer.....

[mtbdarby]

Trek, you crack me up. I can't even sit on the carpet without running my hand over the carpet and making the "coke line" of dog hair as you put it.

As for the vacuum, Xena (named after the warrior princess but a chicken at heart) is terrified of the vacuum cleaner. My ex used to chase her around the house tormenting her as a pup. Zeus just thinks I'm playing and starts barking and pawing at me. Goobers. I use the shedding comb on her in the summer and I can stuff pillows with the hair that girl loses.

But alas, we were talking dates....

Bikerchick, way to go on date #3! I have a coffee date tomorrow so wish me well. This guy is in limbo. Just moved back to WI from CA cuz his mom has cancer and he's the only single kid. So he's living at home helping her out and looking for a job. He's athletic but not necessarily a "biker". But I will keep trying.

Lise, score on the first date! Let us know how it goes. I hear you on the bitter cold up here - it's crazy (although it gives us good reason to cuddle up you know!).

Trek - uhaul - I'm still laughing....

[Lise]

Lise, score on the first date! Let us know how it goes. I hear you on the bitter cold up here - it's crazy (although it gives us good reason to cuddle up you know!).
Dar, I'm going to take that as "Lise, good going on getting a date" rather than the way I first read it, which was, "Lise, get some action on the first date"! :eek: Although...it is really cold out... :o

Trek, I hear ya. I played for the girls' team for years, now giving the guys a shot. I didn't actually move in with a girlfriend on the 2nd date, but mentally, well, "you had me from hello" says it all! :p

[Trek420]

Lise writes "Trek, I hear ya. I played for the girls' team for years, now giving the guys a shot. I didn't actually move in with a girlfriend on the 2nd date, but mentally, well...."

Lise, you go girl. I like men, some of my best friends are men, men are cool, men're wonderful. I'm as capable as any gal of appreciating them aestheticly as in "Gorgeous George is hot :D " or "look at the legs on that guy" and their personality as in our Team Testosterone guys here. As for dateing 'em, nah, not gonna happen.

Although it would give me more options on a Saturday night ;-)

Although I'm not a "gold star lesbian" (translation for those who bat for the major leagues-"never slept with a man") it was so long ago it doesn't count. But I'm kinda hard wired this way I feel, or for the more spiritual amoung us g** made me this way.

Try off road? sure
Give a fixed gear a try? deffinately
Gu instead of Hammergel? sure, why not
Give guys a shot? nope
And where is the jersey that says "sorry guys, I'm gay"?

But I agree whichever team you bat for you gotta get to know the person really really well first.

[mtbdarby]

Lise, sorry about that wording which left room for interpretation. I meant way to go on getting that first date! Now, if you choose a little action, I will not judge :p Heck, I don't even kiss anyone on the first date :eek:

[bcipam]

Let me run this by you all... I've tried a few online dating sites, and lately Match.com. "Met" a few men but once I got to know them better, I started to shy away. Most I find aren't all that truthful or honest in their profiles. About 2 months I started corresponding with this one gentleman via email. In my emails I made it very clear a partner should be athletic/outdoorsy etc. He said he was, that he loved cycling, hiking etc. Note his profile also said he was 6'1" etc.

Well we talked by phone and finally agreed to meet. I went to his house. When I got to the door, a man opened it and I almost said "where's Scott? Is he here?" Turned out Scott was not all that honest with me. The least of which he was only 5'5" tall (I'm 5'9"), very overweight, in poor health etc. He was very sweet but clearly very lonely, desperate and needy. I politely let him know I didn't think he was a match for me but if he needed someone to talk with, he could call. Long story short, his health has gotten worse. Recently, due to serious diabetes, he had his leg amputated. He calls, wants to talk and wants me to visit. I feel so guilty but I hardly know him and frankly can't take this on in my life right now. I am at a loss what to do. Part of me says it's not my problem but the other part says I should be a good samaritan and go visit Scott.

Anyway, I am so off these dating websites. Just too superficial. I find people tend not to be truthful (come on - don't they realize I can see the photo is 20 years old?!?!?). I would like to meet someone special but I'm thinking it will happen will it happens, naturally, through cycling or some of my other outdoor activities.

[bikerchick68]

OK... Lise... SCORE on that date! Woot! :eek: :D hehehehe... hey a chick can dream or being more like "Samantha" from Sex and the City!

mtbdarby... cool! I wanna hear all about your date too! I can't be the only one hearing bizarre stuff out there... comeon gang, fess up...

bcipam- OMG! This is the horror story people talk about with online dating... I've been very, very lucky and every single person so far has been who they said they were... (some forgot to mention Ironman... but yeah, he rides!)

I would NOT get involved with this person. You're right, you don't know him, and he has issues that are way beyond you, unless you are a professional counselor...

I would let him know that you are empathic but that he should seek some help professionally. I would feel horrible for him too, but there are so many red flags there that I'd be running the other way. Sorry to hear you had a crappy experience... :(

[bcipam]

Well that was the worse experience (poor Scott) but not the only one. I think it may be my demographic - I'm older (54) - I think guys my age have alot of baggage (otherwise they would be connected) and I have some too.

I am fortunate to have lots of guy friends who fill the void at least for now. I think I'll just stick with the friend thing, get off online dating. Good luck to you. Hope it works out. Always look at it this way - might not be a romantic match but ou get to find another cycling buddy!

[Yasmin]

There's a whole lotta dating going on out there. That's really good to hear & I wish you all the best. If ever my situation changes, you're giving me hope. Only thing is...you're all in the States & I'm in Australia. Well, the world is a golfball, isn't it?.
As long as there is love, respect etc in your life I don't think the "team" matters. Not everyone has the ability to love, so finding it is all that matters.
Goodluck to each & every one of you.

Bcipam : How disillusioning for you. I guess he's trying to attach, but is he being fair? Sounds like you'd be better off politely withdrawing from that situation. He's looking for someone to look after him, not an equal relationship. He wasn't honest to begin with, but you can be straight (no pun intended) & honest with him by saying "sorry, but no". You'll hopefully only need to say it once, even though it won't be easy. Goodluck & let us know how it goes.

[Trek420]

bikerchick68 writes "OK... Lise... SCORE on that date! Woot! :eek: :D "

go Lise go, we're living through you hehehehe...play safe of course ;-)

"I can't be the only one hearing bizarre stuff out there... comeon gang, fess up..."

C, a gal I dated (we're friends now) before we met she showed up for a date with a gal ..... who turned out to be a guy in drag. :eek:

The opposite is not likely to happen to any of you gals.

bcipam, I feel sorry for the guy, but with that ammount of deviation from the truth I'd hesitate to get involved at all. Maybe he can get help from a local Diabetes Association.

And as for your feeling like withdrawing from the whole online thing and hanging out with your frends, sometimes that's best. I always find that when I stop looking, when I'm not looking, that's when things happen anyway. And meanwhile, you have fun with your friends.

many online are honest, but it's amazing what you can get away with online. Like I'm really a 68 year old male Arkansas pig farmer and Nascar fan ;) :rolleyes: just kidding, really :)

[carback]

If I can chime in here with my thoughts as to online dating...

bcipam - no disrespect meant here at all but under NO circumstances should you be going to his place to meet him/pick him up for the first time. Nor should he come to your place to pick you up the first time. No matter how many emails / phone calls you've shared back & forth. No matter how great he sounds on paper. Seriously. And it's also best as women, not to give them our phone number. If you move from the emailing online stuff onto having an actual phone call, then most men will give you their number for you to call them (yes, they can get your phone number from call display or *69 (in Canada)).

Rule #1 of online dating - make sure you meet in a public place the first time. Without wanting to scare you off, sadly there are a lot of whackos out there, especially through the semi-anonymous online scene. Be safe. Tell a friend where you and the person are meeting so that they know where to turn to if they need to.

I don't mean to sound paranoid and really, I'm not. Just be safe. Online can be a fun experience. Best of luck out there (i'm out there too)

[Trek420]

thanks carback for the safety tip. I agree...." If you move from the emailing online stuff onto having an actual phone call, then most men will give you their number for you to call them (yes, they can get your phone number from call display or *69 (in Canada))."

Use your cell phone number because of reverse directory one can key in the number, get your address. Can't do that with the cell phone number.

If you call from your land line your number may appear in caller id even if you block it (*67 if you have selective blocking, or just dial normaly if you have complete blocking) it's not gauranteed that they don't get your number.

*69, call return lets you call back the last person who called you, but the number does not even appear on their bill, in CA anyway. So they don't get your number.

Every day I get calls from folks who have to change their number because of romance gone awry. Don't be one of them :cool:

And fess up gals, do you Google your dates? Seems to be the growing preliminary before the coffee date step in the 20-30 sumthin' group.

[Lise]

OMG. Poor bcipam! :eek: No! That's what I say to Scott on your behalf. I am baffled as to why anyone would deliberately misrepresent themself online. I'm going to be so charmed by your personality that I'll overlook the fact that you're a liar? My pictures were all taken within the past year. I am 45, no joke. I did some online dating last year, ended up seeing one guy for 7 months. There are some odd folks out there, and some very interesting ones. People I'd never meet otherwise. Even if I don't want to date most of them! I tried meeting women on line, too...giving both teams an equal shot...nothing. Well, not exactly nothing, but nothing I was interested in. Aaaaand the beat goes on.

Believe me, if there's any kissing on the first date, it'll be on the back of my hand. That would be charming. I don't have the physical or spiritual space to date a whole lot, and I get sooooo very attached once it becomes physical. So I'm going to take it slowly with whomever...and if he's not up for that, then he's not the right guy, anyways.

Great safety tips. After leaving an abusive and probably crazy ex (a woman), I am very, very careful. I don't even like to say my last name for awhile. We meet in a public place, during the day, for the first time. I use my cell phone. I trust my instincts, which are highly tuned, given my experiences. If there's any creepy factor, it's over. Politely. But over.

Thanks for the sisterly cyberhugs and pats on the back! And yes! I will let you know how it goes!

BTW, at least 8" of snow in Chgo today. I'm digging out the x-c skis tomorrow! (If I'll ever just get offline and go to bed... :p ) L.

[Yasmin]

I haven't done on-line dating, but I am aware that crazy's come in both genders...so do nice folk. All the advice given about being safe I 100% reinforce. We do have to be careful, but overall most people are OK. :) Trust your instincts. Thank god for our womenly intuition. I know it's saved me more than once in my life.

[SnappyPix]

From another perspective:

I met my sweetie 8 years ago as a result of me placing a personals ad (just prior to the whole internet, online dating thing). We hit it off and have been in a pink fluffy world ever since.
We've even evolved on two wheels together and now train seriously every spare moment we can.
I guess we fall into Trek's U-Haul, second date category (but are resisting the Merging Thing at every opportunity!), but we gals just can't help ourselves, once we subconsciously detect similar groupset lust!

Just wanted to post from the other point of view and say for every loon out there, there's a real gem waiting to be snapped up!

[bikerz]

Encouragement to the match.commers out there:
my neighbors (both avid cyclists and mtb-ers) met and married thru match .com 4 years ago - they were in their early 30s, and a very good friend in her late 50s just married her sweetie met thru match.com - so it can happen!

[makbike]

Nearly two years ago I posted an ad on Yahoo personals and meet several guys, none I was interested in nor wished to even attempt a second date with. I had decided to pull my ad at the end of the month and well my luck changed. One quiet evening someone read my ad and we chatted via IM for several hours. This continued through the week on a nightly basis and we finally agreed to meet face to face, on Feburary 14. We shared dinner, conversation and then I took a risk I know I shouldn't have, I went for a walk in the park with him - don't panic he did not murder, rape or touch me but in hindsight it probably was not the the safest thing to do on a first date. One date led to second one and a third one (yet another hike in a park with my large dog by my side - he passed the canine test!) and our relationship continues to evolve to this day. I could not be happier. There is someone out there for everyone. One may simply have to turn over a lot of stones and look in some unfamiliar places to find them but you have to look and take the chance that something good will come your way.

[bcipam]

I hear good stories about online dating all the time. I just haven't had those experiences. Not certain why, but there is this very strange group of men that are attracted to me. I get alot of responses but from men I am not interested in. Would like to know why they keep contacting me. Maybe they believe me to be "desperate" thus "easy." Couldn't be farther from the truth. I have learned and enjoy the fact I don't need a man in my life - well, a romantic relationship with a man. I love men and seek their company and enjoy being around them and are mostly what I have for friends. But I am at that age do I really want to live someone else's life (ie the man's) and not my own? My own is not all that bad. I see too many women once they get connected with a guy, give up their own life (and their kids, pets and family) to be with the guy and live his life (ie do what he wants). My current roommate (a guy) is seriously dating a woman who not only has given up all her prior social contacts but her son as well (OK he's 17 but still needs a mom). I think her to be of weak constitution and lacking good moral fiber. My roommate could care cause he has a steady lay.

As for the physical connection - I cautious everyone, especially the younger women, to not have sex all that soon once entering a relationship. Why? once the physical connection is made, the mental connections seem to jump out the window. Sex is a powerful drug and will cloud many a mind - both male and female. I think that's one reason so many marriages end in failure now a days. Folks have sex too soon. They get married for all the wrong reasons and when the sex frenzy fades (and it will), it's too late to discover there is nothing else.

If the relationship was meant to be - he and/she will wait for sex. Can't beat developing a solid friendship beforehand, making sure this potential life partner matches up morally, spiriturally and then physically.

And I know when it is time, sometime will occur and if it does not occur it was not meant to be. It maybe my fate in life to remain stubbornly independant! ;)

[Irulan]

when the sex frenzy fades (and it will),

hasn't happened here yet... 25 years and it just keeps getting better.

~I.

[Lise]

As for the physical connection - I cautious everyone, especially the younger women, to not have sex all that soon once entering a relationship. Why? once the physical connection is made, the mental connections seem to jump out the window. Sex is a powerful drug and will cloud many a mind - both male and female. I think that's one reason so many marriages end in failure now a days. Folks have sex too soon. They get married for all the wrong reasons and when the sex frenzy fades (and it will), it's too late to discover there is nothing else.

If the relationship was meant to be - he and/she will wait for sex. Can't beat developing a solid friendship beforehand, making sure this potential life partner matches up morally, spiriturally and then physically.

No kidding! I have a friend who contends that there's a hormone released the first (and only the first) time a couple has sex. The effects last about three months. Thus so many break-ups at 3-4 months. It's certainly been true for me in the past, although I'm so stubborn that I dragged the relationships on for years! :o I've done my "crazy in love" time, and it never ended well. The high was seldom worth the lows. That said, I have a 27 year old who keeps writing me...? Dude? You got it that I'm 45? I'm enjoying the cyber attention, anyway. :D

L.

[Trekhawk]

No kidding! I have a friend who contends that there's a hormone released the first (and only the first) time a couple has sex. The effects last about three months. Thus so many break-ups at 3-4 months. It's certainly been true for me in the past, although I'm so stubborn that I dragged the relationships on for years! :o I've done my "crazy in love" time, and it never ended well. The high was seldom worth the lows. That said, I have a 27 year old who keeps writing me...? Dude? You got it that I'm 45? I'm enjoying the cyber attention, anyway. :D

L.

Oooh Lise a toy boy. That could be fun - maybe not serious - but fun. :D

[latelatebloomer]

thought the first) We have newlywed friends - hip NY thirtysomethings, an artist and a chef, who are now opening a restaurant together - who met on an online dating site, don't know which one. As packed and social as NY is, a lot of grad students we knew were trying to link online. These two seem very good for each other - just to share another online success story. :)

thought the second) I had a horrid love life, specializing in a combination of pretty/empty/criminal. The initial sexual connection completely blinded me to the actual mess that was in front of me. First of all Providence sent me some great men friends who patiently taught me to be my real self in male company. Then just before I met the DH, I heard someone on the radio - methinks it was Joseph Campbell - say that in the first few hours and days of a relationship, one is forging a contract of how the relationship will work, and that it is almost impossible to go back and re-write terms, though we are tempted in the first glow to let many things "slide." I really thought about that in the beginning of the next relationship and we've been together for about 20 years - not always easy, but always real and still very passionate. :p

[Lise]

I had a horrid love life, specializing in a combination of pretty/empty/criminal. The initial sexual connection completely blinded me to the actual mess that was in front of me. First of all Providence sent me some great men friends who patiently taught me to be my real self in male company. Then just before I met the DH, I heard someone on the radio - methinks it was Joseph Campbell - say that in the first few hours and days of a relationship, one is forging a contract of how the relationship will work, and that it is almost impossible to go back and re-write terms, though we are tempted in the first glow to let many things "slide." I really thought about that in the beginning of the next relationship and we've been together for about 20 years - not always easy, but always real and still very passionate. :p
Ha! I am laughing at the "pretty/empty/criminal", because it so well identifies some of the past amours of mine! Argh, the stories we could tell. I, too, have been blessed in the past 5 years with some really good men friends. Loving them is what made me even consider dating men. As I think back on the things I let slide early on with the last guy I was with, I realize that contract was firmly in place from the second date. It was a useful experience, and something to learn from.

And back to the athletic dept--I went x-c skiing today in the gorgeous 8" of fluffy snow. Some better person than I had gone first, and laid down tracks I could ski in all around the lovely golf course right on the shore of Lake Michigan. So happy was I.

Driving home, I heard funny noises on the R rear side of the car. Stopped to get gas. Had a flat tire. Filling the tire from the hose at the station, I thought I would freeze. I really was scared. The temps were dropping, sun was setting, the station's on a windy corner, and my clothes were still wet in spots from falling over in the snow (I'm not much of a skier!). I was dressed appropriately for outdoor exercise, but not for crouching down next to the car, trying to fill the tire. My hands were in pain, and took a long time to warm up. Still tingling. I'm buying those down mittens now. I was wearing my warmest winter gloves, and it felt like I had nothing on my hands.

I hope the tire stays full with the air I put in...the Fix-a-Flat was frozen solid in my trunk. I'm warming it up now, and will go back out to check the tire. I'm now wearing several layers of warm, dry clothes. I saw several cyclists trying to navigate the frozen slush and sliding cars. Looks very dangerous. I wish they'd stay off the city streets when it's like this. If any of you are out in conditions like this, please be very, very careful. Lise

[laughlaugh18]

And it's also best as women, not to give them our phone number.


And sometimes even that's not enough. Back before cell phones I didn't want to give out my home number to an online guy until I'd met him. One guy was so affronted that I didn't trust him with my phone number that he used my email address and some software from a private investigator friend of his to track down my full name and address . . . just to prove that he could. :mad: Funnily enough, and much to his surprise, that did not endear him to me.

Although I never really felt threatened by this guy, I'm totally with carback about being careful. Besides the phone numbers and the meeting in public places, also think about using a secondary easy-to-trash email address for your online dating activites.

A friend's trying to get me back into the online dating world again. (I try every 5 years or so; my online experiences - not so good). This time I'm even thinking of getting a pay-as-you-go cell phone so that I don't have to give anyone my real cell phone number to start with. My real cell phone number is dearer to me than even my home number these days!

Yes, I have many friends with good online dating experiences, so I know it's possible. I just want to minimize my risks because my loony quotient unfortunately seems to be higher than most. :eek:

Cathy

[Trek420]

"loony quotient", I love it. Disposable cell phones, e-mail addresses, ah technology. the things we do for love. Gotta say I haven't had any problems with "loony". Dumb luck? Maybe I'm not looking hard enough.

Ok, fess up TE gals, do you Google your dates?

I'm told it's very much the thing in the 20-30 something set.

[Lise]

Ooooh, I didn't think of Googling my date! (no doubt because I'm 45) Update: The date for tomorrow is off, his car broke down. But he sounded genuinely regretful, and wants to reschedule. The 27 year hasn't written back. My computer crashes 9 out of 10 times I try to log onto match.com. Message from God? I hope not! :eek:

:p L.

[KSH]

This time I'm even thinking of getting a pay-as-you-go cell phone so that I don't have to give anyone my real cell phone number to start with. My real cell phone number is dearer to me than even my home number these days!

I really don't see the issue with giving out your cell phone number. If you don't want to answer it... you don't. And... people can find out where you live if they really try... they don't always need a cell phone number to do it.

I understand being safe... but heck... you can see who is calling and ignore them.

[tomgrrrl]

I actually had a date google me before we met....we sat down to have drinks and when I started to talk about stuff she tried hard to pretend she didn't already know some info about me....then she finally 'fessed up....btw, we didn't have second date....despite a number of "dates" 2+ years, I'm still looking. :)

[Yasmin]

Ok, fess up TE gals, do you Google your dates?

I'm told it's very much the thing in the 20-30 something set.


What is "Googling" your date? I know what the Google search engine is, but how does one do that with potential dates? I'm learning a lot here.

[laughlaugh18]

Yasmin - Googling your date is pretty much what it sounds. You search for your date's name using the Google search engine. Remember to put quotes around the name, for example "John Doe".

And fess up folks, when was the last time you Googled yourself!?

KSH - with the cell phone it's not a physical threat thing. If I can recognize someone's number, I can choose not to answer. However, lots of folks, including my family, have their numbers blocked, which means I have to pick up calls on my cell phone that are unidentified. So, I'd rather have a separate phone that I know is only dating-related; gives me the option of not answering if I don't want to.

[BikeMomma]

I see too many women once they get connected with a guy, give up their own life (and their kids, pets and family) to be with the guy and live his life (ie do what he wants).
bcipam - This one sentence struck a chord with me. When I met my husband, I was into cycling, was deadly serious about racing, and totally loved my life. He admired that in me, as he was into athletics, also (basketball). But as we dated and time went on, I did was I thought I was supposed to do as a woman who loves a man, and I slowly gave up cycling to mold myself into his lifestyle (not mine). About a year and a half ago, after being married nearly ten years (eleven now) and three gorgeous kids, it suddenly struck me what I had done -- I gave up the biggest part of myself. Nothing particularly "wrong" with that, but on a women's lib standpoint, I shouldn't have had to do that, and it almost made me angry that it was so taken for granted I would change MY life, and that he didn't change his. So I grabbed the bull by the horns and started riding again, and now I'm seriously considering racing again. Sadly, although I know he is proud of me for sticking to it and for getting my body back, he still doesn't completely understand the sacrifice I made for him and now I feel that he looks at me differently....almost like he doesn't know how to "take" me these days, being this "liberated" woman and all.

[Irulan]

bcipam - This one sentence struck a chord with me. When I met my husband, I was into cycling, was deadly serious about racing, and totally loved my life. He admired that in me, as he was into athletics, also (basketball). But as we dated and time went on, I did was I thought I was supposed to do as a woman who loves a man, and I slowly gave up cycling to mold myself into his lifestyle (not mine). About a year and a half ago, after being married nearly ten years (eleven now) and three gorgeous kids, it suddenly struck me what I had done -- I gave up the biggest part of myself. Nothing particularly "wrong" with that, but on a women's lib standpoint, I shouldn't have had to do that, and it almost made me angry that it was so taken for granted I would change MY life, and that he didn't change his. So I grabbed the bull by the horns and started riding again, and now I'm seriously considering racing again. Sadly, although I know he is proud of me for sticking to it and for getting my body back, he still doesn't completely understand the sacrifice I made for him and now I feel that he looks at me differently....almost like he doesn't know how to "take" me these days, being this "liberated" woman and all.


I don't think it has anything to do with "womens' lib" or being "liberated" ... I think it's human nature to get so involved with pleasing a mate and putting one's passions aside that ANYONE, male or female, parent or not, can lose part of themselves in a relationship. Certainly, there is some societal conditioning involved, no denying that. There are plenty of men out there who get involved with being a provider, or trying to please thier partners that they too lose parts of themselves and the thing that give them joy. And yep - when one partner starts to recover that sense, it can be quite a shock to the other half! Especially if things have gotten complacent and routine. The trick is to find a place where you can honor yourself and your passions, and not become a selfish person within the relationship.

Call me a reformed feminist but I equate women's lib and feminism with a lot of negativity . I prefer to look at the needs of men AND women - while inherently different creatures, both have feelings, needs, desires and passion that need to be respected. Both suffer from imbalances in the male/female scheme of things in modern society.

just my two cents, as usual, take it or leave it.


Irulan

[Trek420]

Yasmin asks "And fess up folks, when was the last time you Googled yourself!?"

OMG, I'm surprised you don't all show up at my door sometime. Let me know first if you do, I'll try to clean up the hovel a bit.

and tomgrrl, she must have found out that bit about that you sleep with cornish game hens and can't eat anything that begins with the letter "g" unless it's at the far right hand side of the plate? Just kidding you, really I am.

And anyway we know about the cornish game hens and won't serve you gefilte fish at any TE events. We like you a lot but don't run for Senate because the Google images with you, Liberache and Fidel Castro? I think it's done in Photoshop, really I do but it'll just ruin the Senate bid.

and tomgrrl, was the no 2nd date because she googled you? or because she googled you and then was rude and non-reactive and not listening to what you said (how rude. that's like you get to interview William Shakespear and "oh whatever, I've read all about you"), or because she was picking her teeth with the parasol from the drink? ;-)

And googleing myself? There's some major porn star with the same unusual first name as mine. She's not me, really!

I keep pinned up on my pod at work a snippet of a TTY tape of a conversation that ends:

"and can I get your name?"

"TREK420? (insert real first name here)"

"OMG have I reached a wrong number heee heee, have a real sexy day"

"Uh, yeah, and thank you for calling da' phone co, bye bye SKSK GA."

And regarding the balance thing, I'm tending towards what Irulan sed. And I'm a totally unreformed feminist. I think the goal is balance and that's difficult to acheive in any relationship and especially for families with kids, working...there are only so many hours in the day.

And let's face it gals we all love a sport that takes a lot of time. I may or may not ride today, but I will clean and lube and check my bikes. If there was anyone here other than my dog would she resent that? Even my dog would rather I was walking her.

Bikemoma, I can identify with the team sports thing, with my ex for the last 3 years or so of our relationship I was a "football widow", yep, she played on a womens team. It's called pro but so far nobody gets paid or paid much or paid enough in my book to take hits like that but anywho. I went to the games, practices etc, good lil' football "wife".

I've heard football refered to as 'the crack cocaine of team sports". I don't play team sports at all, if there's a ball involved in the sport I can and will s*&^ at it. Yeah, I throw and catch like a girl, go figure. But aparently for sporty folk the intensity of the camraderie of football is addictive.

By then I'd rediscovered my love of cycling and the funny thing is she rekindled that. Also was well on my way to my goal of black belt in Aikido...but I went to the games. Did I resent it on a sunny day I could be rideing? Or that I was missing my own Aikido training? Heck yeah. Did I do anything about it like take time for myself? Nope.

My bad.

I don't think we'd be together even had I carved out time for myself but it's about trying to find a balance and communication I think.

[Yasmin]

It's OK Trek, it was LL18 that mentioned googling yourself...good idea though!
As far as a woman shaping her life around a man, TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! I've done it 3 times. When will I learn. Partly I think it's in-built. How many men do you know who reshape themselves around a woman? I told my husband ages ago that if we end I'm not playing that tune anymore. I'm curious to know what happens in same-sex relationships. I know one couple (men) who were together for 25years until one died of a ruptured aorta, very sad. But in that instance it was still one person adjusting to another. Is it more a matter of "givers & takers"?
Trek...you've partly answered this question for me anyway. When I look back I get pretty peed at myself for being so "giving" ie changing more for them than they do for me. It's my own fault really.

[Trek420]

Yasmin wrote "As far as a woman shaping her life around a man, TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! I've done it 3 times. When will I learn. Partly I think it's in-built."

We're wired that way. Possibly if we wern't nurturing humans would not have survived. If men weren't out there hunting mastadons we would not have survived either. So it was all essential at some time. Not that women can't hunt mastadons and men can't pick berries but we get the message that society dissaproves.

And we get it so young.

Off season I'm in the dojo. Today was open training, just show up and work on...whatever. Depends on who's there.

So I'm working with our visiting student and on the other side there's a little girl, maybe 9 and her parents. She plans to go to school tomorrow with one of our black belts and do a demo for her class. Cute huh?

Her parents are very encourageing but she's so nervous, hardly moves, and won't kiai (yell) or make a sound at all.

Thinking she could use some encouragement from a gal I go over and tell her "see this?" (Trek points at belt) "Sensei (teacher) gave it to me because I'm loud. When I don't know what to do or whether it's my right foot or left I make a lot of noise"

We talked about that it's ok for women and girls to be loud, and to be strong and throw big guys around like rag dolls, it's ok to make mistakes and not to worry about it.

By the end I think I saw a smile and she was throwing the black belt she's borowing hard. But still would not make a sound. These messages are so deep.

"How many men do you know who reshape themselves around a woman?"

I think it's different for men. And I hate to generalize but I think some men reshape themselves but in other ways.

Some of the techs I work with complain loudly of the hours, overtime and time away from their families. But ask them "you could decline OT, are you willing to give up the 'vette, the vacation home, or live with less?" "no".

"I told my husband ages ago that if we end I'm not playing that tune anymore."

I'm curious if you feel that reshapeing yourself is endangering the relationship, why not find a way to let the real Yasmin out BEFORE it ends? Could be even better than before? I'm just asking. Don't know what's right.

"I'm curious to know what happens in same-sex relationships."

So am I ;-) Women, who can figure them out?

"I know one couple (men) who were together for 25years until one died of a ruptured aorta, very sad. But in that instance it was still one person adjusting to another. Is it more a matter of "givers & takers"?"

Sorry to hear about your friends.

Speaking as I do for all gay people .... not ..... I think that our relationships may be more fluid because we don't have ridid generalization about gender roles. You're free to sorta work that out yourself or should be.

On the other hand individuals can be of themselves just as rigid: take my ex, please...she didn't want me to do laundry, ever. She kinda resented that she had to do it but would not let me. Alrighty then.

Well, 3 years later here I sit fully clothed, laundry going in the background.

The goal is some fluidity, back to cycling analogies. I've never ridden a tandem but what I've read is this, that both pedal together but on a tandem when the captain tires the stoker pitches in, when the stoker is tired the captain works a little harder, when both are tired, stop for lunch? Feel free to correct me V?

Hopefully with communication it's not always one person who gives or takes, can be fluid. At least that's what I'd like.

"Trek...you've partly answered this question for me anyway. When I look back I get pretty peed at myself for being so "giving" ie changing more for them than they do for me. It's my own fault really."

Well we're all learning all the time, we make mistakes, we get better but mostly hopefully we don't keep doing the same ^&%$ thing. If you're lucky you'll have troubles all your life, if you're unlucky they will be the same &^%$'ing ones. We're not taught how to do this, no one comes with directions, and most ARE taught a lotta stuff that is dreck.

My parents had an incredible marriage, this February would have been 65 years and they were very happy. So I had the example in front of me and still don't know what I'm doing.

I sometimes think that relationships are the single hardest thing we do and maybe the most important.

[Yasmin]

I sometimes think that relationships are the single hardest thing we do and maybe the most important.

You're not wrong there. I don't get why we as a species find it sooo hard to really get on together. If we find it so difficult at a personal level, what hope is there at a global level? Maybe humans have an in-built self-destruct mechanism to stop us from totally messing up the planet & other life forms. I really wonder about this sometimes.

[pkq]

You're not wrong there. I don't get why we as a species find it sooo hard to really get on together. If we find it so difficult at a personal level, what hope is there at a global level? Maybe humans have an in-built self-destruct mechanism to stop us from totally messing up the planet & other life forms. I really wonder about this sometimes.

We can't get along because we are a flawed, imperfect, and arrogant species. Adam and Eve, of the Bible, had Paradise yet sinned due to arrogance, just like Satan. And what did Adam say, when confronted by the Lord about why he was hiding? "It was her fault!." He couldn't even stand like a man and assume the responsibility for his own decision to follow Eve. Ha! Eve blamed the serpent! And they were created perfect.

Satan knows God exists but rebels anyway. His arrogance leads him to think he will be victorious over God. Arrogance, the original sin, leads me to worry about my own actions way more than anothers actions. I can't think outside my box too much until I get mine in order. Can't even wrap my mind around global.

[bcipam]

Just an FYI - this weekend was great. Friday night I had dinner with my friend Mark. We've known each other for 20 years. Just friends, but very close. Saturday a new friend, Curtis came over for lunch and stayed for dinner. I had a great time. Yesterday was out all day with my 3 best buddies riding around. Had a fun lunch after, just sitting, joking and enjoying the beautiful weather. If connected, I would not have been able to see any one of those boys.

Again, I am soooo torn about finding a romantic partner and just enjoying my life the way it is. I far from being a "liberated" woman and definitely not a feminist, but I like my independence and would prefer the company and friendship of good men v. a romantic relationhip with a man maybe not so good. It's good to have a forum to discuss these issues. My married friends just don't understand.

[Trek420]

bcipam writes "I .... would prefer the company and friendship of good men v. a romantic relationhip with a man maybe not so good."

wait a minute, wait a minute. wait a minute. Why's it gotta be one or the other? And this from the gal whos friends said "we're sorry about your break up but guess what? Now we'll see you often" So I get that. ::: skips off makes note to myself "make time for long time friends even when/if I meet gal o' my dreams" :::::

And why is the alternative to "a few good men" gotta be romance with someone not so good? Don't settle! You better not. You're looking for a guy who has all those traits you like in your friends and maybe more. Right?

[bcipam]

Well of course, but if history is an indicator, I do tend to be "blind" when it comes to a romantic relationship. Plus there is a real big difference between friendship and romance. Each of my buds are real good guys, and treat me well and show me respect, but I can't say it would be that way if we are in a romantic relationship. Men and women tend to change when romance is involved. Don't know why and if it's that way for everyone, it's my experience.

[latelatebloomer]

Warning: I am an unrepentant feminist. I all too well remember the classified ads listing "employment for men" "employment for women," just for starters, or the days when a boy would hit a girl and her teacher/mother would say, "that means he likes you."

On the topic of women shaping their lives around their partners, I gotta say that recently, when my husband went back to grad school at age 38, lived in another city for 3 years, and turned our finances and our relationship on their heads, I routinely recieved lectures from supposedly enlighted NY liberal types on "supporting" my husband's career. As in, I was not doing enough. It really made me distraught, also frightened that he was being advised to leave me behind. Probably he was. One day, I realized that at no time had anyone, anywhere, anyhow, lectured my husband on supporting me in MY career, even though I am just as talented and was having real breakthroughs with my own work, such as a book contract with a major publisher. That's how intense the pressure is on women. I like the idea that the pressure is on both partners in a relationship, but I don't see it.

[bcipam]

Maybe its my age, but I am a true believer of old fashion notions of a marriage. I expect a husband to honor, cherish and protect and I expect the wife to respect, support and obey (I don't mean as a servant, but don't be inpertient, disrepectful).

A marriage must be a true partnership to work but sometimes that means one must give up their own goals and aspirations to support those of the spouse. If both are trying to suceed on their own, there is little room to support the other. Of course, every marriage is different and what works for one doesn't work for another. I don't understand where the notion came from that a woman cannot be respected if she chooses to be a mother and keep a good house as oppose to have a career and leave the children with a nanny or at day care. Can't think of a more important job that either spouse can take. God bless the stay at home moms (and dads) out there!!!

Now at my age I don't plan on having a family so I can pursue my career but I would and have put my husband ( or boyfriend) first. But that's just me.

[Yasmin]

One day, I realized that at no time had anyone, anywhere, anyhow, lectured my husband on supporting me in MY career, even though I am just as talented and was having real breakthroughs with my own work, such as a book contract with a major publisher. That's how intense the pressure is on women. I like the idea that the pressure is on both partners in a relationship, but I don't see it.

See, See, See...that's my point!!!. It's expected of us. We're not really that far removed from the child-like 1950's housewife who was perpetually nice & self-sacrificing for her hard-working husband (no one thought child rearing consisted of hard work in those days). My husbands parents "celebrated" 50yrs of marriage about 3 years ago. Her comment: "I should be awarded a gold medal for putting up with him". What bitterness & resentment this oozes. No one can give up their goals, their life & not have resentment.

Bcipam wrote:"A marriage must be a true partnership to work but sometimes that means one must give up their own goals and aspirations to support those of the spouse"....
Excuse me for saying this but, are you serious? Would your husband do likewise? I know of one husband who gave up his career for that of his wife's (she's a surgeon) & that marriage is on the rocks. I know many women with high school/ university aged children who are now resentful of what they've given up.

[latelatebloomer]

Bcipam, I feel that putting down the role of "only" mother & homemaker is an area where many modern feminists went wrong. I knew I was completely unsuited for both, and I married at 31 to someone who also had no desire for the father/provider role.

I also think that if a woman chooses the mother/homemaker role, she should be respected and valued by her society, have an equal say in the money & property & decision making, and have access to healthcare, retirement, and political voice apart from the whims of her husband. And the same for when it's the man who is the homemaker/nurturer. I have a problem with corporate, academic, and political positions that require the partner to act as an invisible employee - socializing, entertaining, lobbying, etc - with no protectable gain of their own.

When I was a manager at various small businesses, it drove me crazy when an applicant told me she had "only" been a mother. Those "moms" were consistently the hardest working, most unflappable employees on my crew.

I don't see how a grown adult in his or her full faculties can be asked to "obey" the other without slow death of the psyche and the relationship. I grew up with that concept, and I never liked the results that I saw.

I'm glad we've been able to keep this thread going with mutual respect. These are tough topics. I hope all of us can find our way to rich relationships that satisfy our hearts.

[laughlaugh18]

From latelate, "I feel that putting down the role of "only" mother & homemaker is an area where many modern feminists went wrong."

It's my belief that the early modern feminists got pushed into the corner and had to do that to "prove" that women were serious about work. My mom tried to go back to work in the late 60s/early 70s when my brother and I were teens. She was uniformly told (by uniformly male potential employers) that she didn't have the experience, the ability or the interest ("obvious" since she'd been out of the workforce for so long) in the work she was applying for. It was shameful, and it was what the feminists at the time were up against. It was the guys who started the stupid "only a homemaker" line, and unfortunately some feminists got sucked into it.

Sounds like we're of the same mind on this. The point of feminism to me is to ensure women have the freedom to pursue the work/home balance that's right for them . . . and are given equal respect no matter what direction they choose.

Cathy

[slinkedog]

Okay... here's my 2 cents worth. I'm a stay at home mom. I worked from the time my oldest was 2 mos. old until she was 8, when I had remarried and had her brother. Having had it both ways, I am SO grateful that my husband works so hard so that I can stay home with our kids. I hated working while my daughter was being cared for by someone else.

My job is here at home. My husband's is at his office (and our home office, many nights and weekends, much as he hates that.) We have no problems with our roles because we try really hard to always put each others' needs ahead of our own. When you're both making that happen, it works great. Of course we have times where we don't do a good job of living up to the ideal; we deal with those issues as they arise, but I have to say that we don't have them very often. My husband is great and I am so thankful for him!! :) I think the biblical notion of the wife obeying her husband is very misunderstood and taken out of context. I believe that men through the centuries have abused that idea horribly without themselves obeying the command they were given- to love their wives enough to die for them and to treat them accordingly.

I think when you have a partnership of mutual giving, it works. When you have a relationship where each person is most interested in having things on their own terms, there is tension, resentment and loss of respect. At least that's what I experienced in my first marriage.

Not meaning to preach... just sharing my opinion. :)

[Trek420]

latelatebloomer writes "Warning: I am an unrepentant feminist."

women come with warning labels now? who knew. what would mine say? "contents under pressure, needs fresh air"

I agree with the slogan "every mother is a working mother", that and teaching, probably the hardest jobs in the world.

"I'm glad we've been able to keep this thread going with mutual respect. These are tough topics. I hope all of us can find our way to rich relationships that satisfy our hearts."

yep, another "only on TE" moment. Here's to all of us *toasts you all with Cytomax*

[DirtDiva]

On the other hand individuals can be of themselves just as rigid: take my ex, please...she didn't want me to do laundry, ever. She kinda resented that she had to do it but would not let me. Alrighty then.
Sheesh. That would drive me absolutely berserk! I mean really truly nuts. I wouldn't cope with it at all. :eek:

[Trekhawk]

Im am very proud to be a stay at home mum. I had my first child a month before I turned 33 and at that time was a serving member of the defence force. Leaving my job after the birth of my first child was not something I even had to think hard about, I couldnt imagine leaving him with anyone else all day. I have learned so much being a mum and Im sure its fine honed my organization skills. Hey all mums can multi task without even giving it a thought. I know some people feel its a less than admirable career choice but after the birth of two more beautiful boys I wouldnt change a thing. I guess one main thing I have learned from not having a "career" anymore is that you find your self worth from other areas of life. I no longer need a job to define who I am and for this Im truly grateful.

[Irulan]

Bcipam, I feel that putting down the role of "only" mother & homemaker is an area where many modern feminists went wrong. I knew I was completely unsuited for both, and I married at 31 to someone who also had no desire for the father/provider role.

I also think that if a woman chooses the mother/homemaker role, she should be respected and valued by her society, have an equal say in the money & property & decision making, and have access to healthcare, retirement, and political voice apart from the whims of her husband. And the same for when it's the man who is the homemaker/nurturer. I have a problem with corporate, academic, and political positions that require the partner to act as an invisible employee - socializing, entertaining, lobbying, etc - with no protectable gain of their own.

When I was a manager at various small businesses, it drove me crazy when an applicant told me she had "only" been a mother. Those "moms" were consistently the hardest working, most unflappable employees on my crew.

I don't see how a grown adult in his or her full faculties can be asked to "obey" the other without slow death of the psyche and the relationship. I grew up with that concept, and I never liked the results that I saw.

I'm glad we've been able to keep this thread going with mutual respect. These are tough topics. I hope all of us can find our way to rich relationships that satisfy our hearts.



Read "A lesser Life, The Myth of Women's Liberation in America" by Sylvia Ann Hewlett. This book was published in 1985, by a woman who was a first wave feminist, a professor of econonmics at an Ivy League univesity, and a mother of twins, who found out the hard way that there's no way to have it all. I was fairly disillusioned with the women's movement at that point in time anyway, and this book cememted my dissillusionment.

I first got glimpses at what was wrong with first wave feminism when my husband was on call 7 days a week in the oil field, sometimes working 40+ hour shifts with no sleep, and all my so-called friends would ask me is why didn't I make him split the housework with me 50/50 when he was home. I was a college student at the time. I had my kids soon after that, fairly young, and the way that being a stay at home mom was then devalued ( mid/late 80's) was to me, pathetic. That part at least seems to have gotten better, people are coming to their senses about the value of nurturing the ones who come up behind us.

[Yasmin]

Read " being a stay at home mom was then devalued ( mid/late 80's) was to me, pathetic. That part at least seems to have gotten better, people are coming to their senses about the value of nurturing the ones who come up behind us.

We are yet to see the consequences of having our kids in childcare centers while both parents work full-time. Give it another 10yrs or so, maybe then we will finally understand the importance (or not) of rearing the children that we choose to bring into this world instead of employing someone else to do so.

[jeannierides]

I am not surprised that we can discuss so candidly a topic so very personal to each of us, and still respect each others' opinion. That is what I have come to expect on this board.

When I married my first ex, it was pretty much a given that we would pretty much build our life together around his dream. When his dream changed - two years into our marriage - I was expected to accept and adapt - and most of all, not complain. Our daughter came along, and I *had* to work to help support us. We moved every couple of years, due to his job, and I was never able to get a foothold in any *job* worth making a career. I spent several years working outside the home, until one day I'd had enough. Decided I needed to spend more time with our daughter, and we'd just have to adapt...and we did.
This story, however, did not have a very happy ending. After 23 years, I decided I could not take the loss of my self any longer, and left the marriage. I had nothing. My so called *skills* as an admin/clerical worker had not kept up with the electronic age, and I came pretty close to being homeless for the first 3 or 4 years after we split up. No one appreciated my homemaking skills either. Out of the workforce too long. And to add to that, my attorney just *got me out* of the marriage, and said that he didn't realize I wanted him to fight for me to get my *share* ... I was so naive that I took the path of least resistance.

Am I bitter? Yeah, a little. But it was the *times* and I have learned the hard way to fight for my life. I watched my parents in their roles, and in the 40 years they were married there was little bitterness...but they seemed to be the exceptions... I no longer believe in *forever* - but I believe in mutual respect - haven't seen much of it, but still believe in it.

I married again 5 years after my divorce, and that marriage lasted about a minute and a half! We discovered we could not live together, but we have re-discovered each other in our mutual love for biking. We each have our own homes and separate lives, and that works for us - for now.

I don't envy those of you in the dating arena. It's hard. And it's even harder, once you find someone, not to totally give up ourselves - I think most of us are hard-wired that way, and it's a painful to re-work that wiring no matter when you do it. But don't give up. Learn from those of us who have made choices that have proven both good and bad...

~~~peace~~~

[Irulan]

We are yet to see the consequences of having our kids in childcare centers while both parents work full-time. Give it another 10yrs or so, maybe then we will finally understand the importance (or not) of rearing the children that we choose to bring into this world instead of employing someone else to do so.


heh, day care that is a whole 'nother can of worms. better save that one for a different day.

[laughlaugh18]

He checked me out head to toe, walked around me checking me out head to toe, and pulled out a camera and asked if I minded if he took a picture. . . . He has ADD (my take) SADD (his admission) and limited social skills . . . !

Wow. . . the camera thing's a new one, but it sure sounds like one of my west coast loonies migrated in your direction!:D

[Trek420]

mtbdarby "He checked me out head to toe, walked around me checking me out head to toe, and pulled out a camera and asked if I minded if he took a picture."

surprised he didn't check your teeth and the hooves.

"He gets no second date and zero chain rings."

ya think?

"Trek, I don't google, but I've gotten good at finding out their last names and plugged them into a wonderful WI court system website. Anyone with domestic violence (or any violence), current financial woes, or drinking related issues are a no go for me. That's what happens when you're raised by a cop, lol!"

Good luck on the old boyfriend thing, sounds promissing.

Ok ok, we rarely post jokes to this group but just got this one and it seems approprate to this thread:

A man was sick and tired of going to work every day while his wife
stayed home. He wanted her to see what he went through so he prayed:
"Dear Lord: I go to work every day and put in 8 hours while my wife
merely stays at home.

I want her to know what I go through, so please
allow her body to switch with mine for a day. Amen.

God, in his infinite wisdom, granted the man's wish. The next morning,
sure enough, the man awoke as a woman.
He arose, cooked breakfast for his mate, awakened the kids,
Set out their school clothes, fed them breakfast, packed their lunches,

Drove them to school, came home and picked up
the dry cleaning, took it to the cleaners
And stopped at the bank to make a deposit, went grocery shopping,
Then drove home to put away the groceries,
Paid the bills and balanced the checkbook.

He cleaned the cat's litter box and bathed the dog.

Then it was already 1 P.M. and he hurried to make the beds, do the
laundry, vacuum, dust, and sweep and mop the kitchen floor.

Ran to the school to pick up the kids and got into an argument with them
on the way home.

Set out milk and cookies and got the kids organized to do their
homework,
Then set up the ironing board and watched TV while he did the ironing.

At 4:30 he began peeling potatoes and washing vegetables for salad,
breaded the pork chops and snapped fresh beans for supper.

After supper, he cleaned the kitchen, ran the dishwasher, folded
laundry, bathed the kids, and put them to bed. At 9 P.M. he was
exhausted and, though his daily chores weren't finished, he went to bed
where he was expected to make love, which he managed to get through
without complaint.

The next morning, he awoke and immediately knelt by the bed and said,
Lord, I don't know what I was thinking. I was so wrong to envy my wife's
being able to stay home all day. Please, oh please, let us trade back."

The Lord, in his infinite wisdom, replied, "My son, I feel you have
learned your lesson and I will be happy to change things back to the way
they were. You'll just have to wait nine months, though. You got
pregnant last night."

[Irulan]

Good luck on the old boyfriend thing, sounds promissing.

speaking of old boyfriend things.... last year I got an email out of the blue from a guy I dated, um, 30 years ago when I was 15 and he was 23. It wasn't the "hey how are ya whacha been up to" kind of thing that surfaces thanks to the internet. It was more " you were my most strongest love and I threw it all away blah blah blah". In fact, he dumped me for my best friend at the time. I guess he forgot that part!! I couldn't' beleive it, I felt so invaded! It was NOT a chatty hello. I got really pissed off and told the guy in no uncertain terms not to contact me again, and that our relationship at the time was really inappropriate. In reply, I got something so rude I deleted it after reading the first sentence.

Now, he just sent me a recipe. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Can you say BLOCK SENDER????

What's really funny is I am back in touch after all these years with said girlfriend , he's doing it to her too, I guess he's married and all. Jeez. Some people.

[Trekhawk]

speaking of old boyfriend things.... last year I got an email out of the blue from a guy I dated, um, 30 years ago when I was 15 and he was 23. It wasn't the "hey how are ya whacha been up to" kind of thing that surfaces thanks to the internet. It was more " you were my most strongest love and I threw it all away blah blah blah". In fact, he dumped me for my best friend at the time. I guess he forgot that part!! I couldn't' beleive it, I felt so invaded! It was NOT a chatty hello. I got really pissed off and told the guy in no uncertain terms not to contact me again, and that our relationship at the time was really inappropriate. In reply, I got something so rude I deleted it after reading the first sentence.


Ok thats sounds pretty creepy.

[VenusdeVelo]

Maybe its my age, but I am a true believer of old fashion notions of a marriage. I expect a husband to honor, cherish and protect and I expect the wife to respect, support and obey (I don't mean as a servant, but don't be inpertient, disrepectful).

A marriage must be a true partnership to work but sometimes that means one must give up their own goals and aspirations to support those of the spouse. If both are trying to suceed on their own, there is little room to support the other. Of course, every marriage is different and what works for one doesn't work for another. I don't understand where the notion came from that a woman cannot be respected if she chooses to be a mother and keep a good house as oppose to have a career and leave the children with a nanny or at day care. Can't think of a more important job that either spouse can take. God bless the stay at home moms (and dads) out there!!!

Now at my age I don't plan on having a family so I can pursue my career but I would and have put my husband ( or boyfriend) first. But that's just me.


I don't really understand why we have different traits. I think men and women, men and men and women and women in any relationship both have to love, honor, cherish, protect, respect, support (sorry, don't like "obey", it was taken out of my marriage vows). I don't see why there are different traits, I believe we bring these mutually human gifts to relationships, independent of gender. I do believe men and women are different, but I can't generalize. I have also met (many) very emotional men, so I believe it's a matter of finding the person who complements you, and vice-versa. So whether that other person you are looking for is a man or woman, you seek the person who fulfills and lives up to those values and traits that are most important to you. I don't believe you give up your goals and aspirations, I believe you compromise to support each other in meeting those goals and aspirations. It may mean I put things on hold while HB goes to school, or he brings home the paycheck while I take a 3 month sabbatical. It's all unique, but it is definitely a compromise.

I am not a strong believer in the traditional definitions...I believe in the interpretation you as a person bring to a relationship, without having to fulfill a "time-honored" ideal. If you want to be a traditional wife, great. If you want to stay home with kids, great. If my HB stays home with the kids instead and I work, also great. That's the thing about a more modern age - it's getting more accepted. And dare I say it -- about the US, after living in EU, there is more snubbing of non-traditional relationships in some places here. It's just kept quiet. They may tolerate but they don't like it, and often don't talk about it. Not that the ole USA is perfect .... ;)

Enough rambling ... my 2 cents worth for the day...

[bcipam]

The old fashion tradional notion of a relationship and marriage has long since gone out the window what with the 60's and feminism, changing morals, divorce, all the things that affect a relationship. Bottom line, men and women are different. It's in the genes and meant to be. Yes there are women who tend to be more like men (that's me - I tend to see things as a man does and am not as nuturing and supportive as most women would be) and there are men who are effeminate, sensitive, willing to take on non-traditional roles of caretaker, house dad etc.

What a couple does in a relationship is between them but once kids come into the equation compromise is necessary. I don't care which parent agrees to do this, but one should stay home and raise the children. Both men and women are equally good at this although I feel most women are better with babies and dads are better after the child reaches school age. Alot of women that I know have this notion that they have to be successful in business and make lots of money but on the other hand, they also want the traditional trappings of having and raising a family. Not to say it can't be done, but it does take a super person to do it all and I have yet to see it done successfully.

I just wonder when it became a bad thing to want to raise kids and when it became a good thing that women need to work to have a personality or identity. Yes there are women who stay home, raise kids and are isolated from the world but most stay at home moms that I know (my two sisters included) are really on the ball. My sisters manage the home finances, the children's schooling, get involved in outside volunteer activities (mostly though school and church) and know how to put gas in their car. Women who don't choose not to know.

For instance, my roommate's (a man) girlfriend was "bragging" (in my opinion) about not being able to cook or clean. I looked at her and in front of the roommate (yes I was being alittle mean) said, "no one with any intelligence can say they can't cook... they choose not to cook and like someone else do it for them." She had to admit that was true. Hey if you aren't interested you aren't interested!

Anyway, I guess I am rambling. Bottom line, I know how to have a good relationship, but I just not seem to be attracted to the right men. Now obviously I choose to be attractive to the wrong guy... what's up with that?

[Geonz]

My mother was a pretty radical feminist in her era... and shocked and horrified her peers when she said that she believed that women should do what they wanted with their careers, and she wanted to raise a lot of children and do it well. (She had a psych degree.)
She did just that - and raised us all with pretty all-inclusive-ist values. It wasn't hypocrisy. I'm sure no marriage is perfect, either, but there really *was* mutual respect and sacrifice. The obvious question is whether the respect would have been maintained had she wanted to be a physicist instead of my father. Dunno.
Three of my siblings have lasting marriages, too; three of us are stalwartly single. (I maintain that there isn't anybody out there smart enough to keep up with me and dumb enough to put up wtih me... and more importantly I keep forgetting to be unhappy... though it has been a little odd watching how many other single chickies join the bike club and get hitched up pretty quickly.)

[bcipam]

I see folks get hitched up right away as well... at first jealous then I see the relationships for what they are... just not for me. I know that special guy is out there for me and I'm willing to wait (or not be in a relationship at all). Like you I'm happy with my life and don't need a man to make it complete... happy... fulfilled... etc.

Just be happy, don't be desperate, take the time to savor, enjoy and live your own life.

[Crankin]

Interesting opinions. I guess I am always shocked when younger people have ideas that seem more conservative than mine. I think I must be a rare person. I have been happily married for 26 years in a very equal relationship. There's been a lot of give and take on both sides, but what it comes down to is that despite the fact it's 2005, we all have to work very hard to not slip back into traditional roles. That, and the fact that it seems that there are very few people out there who seem emotionally stable and well, "normal." By normal, i don't mean like a nuclear family with 2.5 kids, but mentally healthy. How did we all get so screwed up? I am a litle bit younger than the first wave feminists (52), but I never questioned the fact that i would have a career and raise kids. I was married to a real loser for a short time and decided that I would never put myself in that position again when I remarried. I have always worked, took very short maternity leaves (6 wks. to 4 months) and my kids who are now grown are the most wonderful respectful and non judgemental men you could find. We worked hard for this to happen. I could have never stayed home and I knew it, but my kids were planned and wanted. Daycare didn't harm them a bit. I respect those who stay home a lot, I just knew it wasn't for me. Plus, I wanted my kids to be raised the way I was raised and when I was first married, that took both of our salaries. I know that some feel this is selfish and we should have sacrificed, but we all did well. So you single girls, keep looking. There are men who respect women and want to be equal partners.

[Yasmin]

My mum never worked. Even though dad left (never to be seen again) when I was 2 &1/2yrs mum was always around. No daycare, no outside help. Sounds idyllic? One problem: mum was mentally ill (paranoid schizophrenia). Life was not good. Funny thing is I'm one of the most normal, adjusted people I know. Took quite a few years but I got there.
Guess what I'm saying is that there is no one formula for all family units. Also, individual, internal personalities synthesize their environment in different ways. Think of multiple children in one family. All brought up the same way...all have different experiences of their family unit.
Basic fundamentals such as mutual respect, being genuine etc speak volumes no matter what situation you may find yourself in.

[VenusdeVelo]

Amazing to me how intelligent female cyclists are ;-)

I think the tolerance to accept more than one notion of the family is important as we will never get back to 1 ideal, whether conservative or liberal. The world is just to diverse to go back. All we can do is continue to improve the situation on the basis of doing what is right. To think that we adhere to old literal notions is ridiculous to me, I believe we should always in the context of the world re-interpret what the words and ideas mean in today's world. The bible, old testament, whatever works for you, taken at literal word would be absurd to most people. Interpreting what the meaning really is and what it means to daily life is the only way it can live on and be relevant. Change is necessary.

I too know that I probably would not have wanted to stay home with kids but luckily I did choose a husband who would be perfectly suited to do so. Wasn't part of the master plan, it just worked out that way. And I think this maybe has to do with attracting the right men -- the least bit of warning sign that we don't share the right values, they're outta here. You hardly can change someone's beliefs and values, so what you see is what you'll get. So in the right state of mind, I think we do look and should seek out partners who complement rather than duplicate. Sometimes if they duplicate you, you end up with an overage on one side and underage on the other. It's not easy but possible. I was married 1x before, went back into the dating game and married again in my late 30's. So with the benefit of these experiences, I can say you are so much smarter later on...if you get married young, then the best thing is if you change together. Everyone changes, you're not the same person at 40 as you were at 20. Intelligence is a measure of how well we are able to adapt, and I think change is good. Synching it with your significant other is an added challenge, but possible.

*Sigh*, whether we realize it or not, life is always a challenge every day...getting on that bike and going up that hill can be a challenge some days ...

[bcipam]

Really well said.

[bikerchick68]

Holy cow! I have not been able to respond as some glitch disabled me for this site... THANK YOU to Jeff at TE Support for fixing it! :)

anyway, have been following along and chuckling, empathizing, shaking my head in disbelief (mtbdarby!!! good dog, that guy was nutso!!! good to hear that the renewed relationship is going well again tho!)

soooooooo glad to be back! :D

[Yasmin]

Nice to have you back, Bickerchick!:cool: