Well I might be joining the peri club!

[Brandi]

Yes the perimenopause club. I have been having symptoms the last 5 months which I believe I have mentioned. Some said thyroid some suggested peri. Finally could not take it anymore and went to the Dr's today. I have been so fatigued, heart palps (which I have had for years but have been worse since Aug of this year) sometimes totally pissed off moods, mini hot flash moments, sad, lack of sex drive and my favorite..... adrenalin rushes waking me up in the morning and exhausting me. Oh plus a couple major crying break downs that freaked me out. My poor husband. He has been supportive but finally said enough is enough I need to go see the doc. Now having my blood done tomorrow morning. We are doing a reg panel plus thyroid and hormones.
My blood pressure is good my heart does have PVC though which could be worse due to the stress I have put myself through thinking about this. I don't care what it is at this point but feel better that I am doing something finally. I am high anxiety type person so I am scared to go to the Dr's sometimes. They did give me xanax to help me not feel so out of control right now. Not a long term fix by any means. I know it is very addictive just something to help with the adrenalin and heart palps for now. Till we have answer's.
Any advice?
My friend said if it is peri to say thank you accept it and move on to a new life. Haha. She is my wiser older friend.
It could also be thyroid it does run in my family. But they also said my anxiety could just really be bad at this time and my body is feeding off the adrenalin and that is why I am having such a hard time kicking it this time around. Then they were talking prozac or something like that to help me get past this. Just a like 6 month term. :( don't like that.
I am 43 and can't gauge when peri would hit me because my mom was an alcoholic/drug user/not take good care of herself person plus a 2 pack a day smoker and I am complete opposite of her.
Am I babbling sorry! :o

[Irulan]

You might consider being more open minded to the proper medication. It's not always bad once you get over the feeling of "I shouldn't need this". Prozac is a libido killer, you might inquire about something without that side effect.

Xanax is not addictive if you are careful in it's use.

I've been perimenopasual for year, but my symptoms are all in the form of really obnoxious periods.

[OakLeaf]

Buspirone is a non-addictive anxiety drug that you can take regularly and has few side effects. Might be something to think about if you and your doctors decide you want to medicate your anxiety long term.

Prozac is an antidepressant and like most antidepressants, tends to make people more anxious, actually. Generally I'm not a big fan of PCPs prescribing psychiatric drugs anyhow, there are too many subtleties.

I want to say perimenopause lasted over ten years for me. Definitely over seven. It wasn't until three years ago my periods finally stopped.

[Crankin]

Oh yeah, I had my first peri symptoms in my late thirties, started skipping periods occasionally at 43 and then had 5 years of hell, two years, going 11 months with no period and then one! They finally stopped at 48.
Are you having heavy periods, or any irregularities there?
Sometimes doctors are quick to say an issue is menopause related, so make sure everything else is ruled out.
As far as anxiety goes, all of your symptoms *could* be from anxiety, or it could be a bit of both. Oak, I've worked with 5 psychopharms (MDs and psych. nurse practitioners) and none of them would prescribe Buspirone. In fact, most are reluctant to prescribe any anti-anxiety drug. But, I do agree, if you are careful and follow instructions, and wean yourself off correctly, things like Xanax and Attivan can be useful in a crisis. And yes, some SSRIs and SSNRIs do make people more anxious. It's a guessing game. But right now, a lot of docs are prescribing them for anxiety because they work on the chemicals in our brain that can cause anxiety, as well as depression.
Brandi, I wouldn't rule out a short course of any meds. Attivan helped me over a 3-4 month period and I was scrupulous about using it correctly. I agree with Oak in that I would see psychiatrist to prescribe any of these types of meds, if it is decided that's what is causing the symptoms. Psychiatrists are generally just prescribers of meds now and do little or no counseling. But, they will refer you to someone for that. Usually, though it's the other way around.
I don't mean to pry, but growing up with an alcoholic parent can "help" all kinds of things to surface later in life. So, make sure you attend to both your physical and mental health and don't let anyone push you into believing it's one or the other, when it could be a whole bunch of things.

[goldfinch]

Prozac is an antidepressant and like most antidepressants, tends to make people more anxious, actually. Generally I'm not a big fan of PCPs prescribing psychiatric drugs anyhow, there are too many subtleties.



IIRC, the selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) like Prozac can worsen anxiety early on in treatment but it most often goes away and actually reduces anxiety symptoms. SSRIs are commonly used to treat anxiety.

I took an SSRI for about three years to deal with anxiety. It worked fairly well but I was glad to wean myself off of it. Some of the SSRIs are harder to stop using than others and you have to slowly taper off the dose. It took me 6 months to stop entirely.

[tealtreak]

Yes the perimenopause club. I have been having symptoms the last 5 months which I believe I have mentioned. Some said thyroid some suggested peri. Finally could not take it anymore and went to the Dr's today. I have been so fatigued, heart palps (which I have had for years but have been worse since Aug of this year) sometimes totally pissed off moods, mini hot flash moments, sad, lack of sex drive and my favorite..... adrenalin rushes waking me up in the morning and exhausting me. Oh plus a couple major crying break downs that freaked me out. My poor husband. He has been supportive but finally said enough is enough I need to go see the doc. Now having my blood done tomorrow morning. We are doing a reg panel plus thyroid and hormones.
My blood pressure is good my heart does have PVC though which could be worse due to the stress I have put myself through thinking about this. I don't care what it is at this point but feel better that I am doing something finally. I am high anxiety type person so I am scared to go to the Dr's sometimes. They did give me xanax to help me not feel so out of control right now. Not a long term fix by any means. I know it is very addictive just something to help with the adrenalin and heart palps for now. Till we have answer's.
Any advice?
My friend said if it is peri to say thank you accept it and move on to a new life. Haha. She is my wiser older friend.
It could also be thyroid it does run in my family. But they also said my anxiety could just really be bad at this time and my body is feeding off the adrenalin and that is why I am having such a hard time kicking it this time around. Then they were talking prozac or something like that to help me get past this. Just a like 6 month term. :( don't like that.
I am 43 and can't gauge when peri would hit me because my mom was an alcoholic/drug user/not take good care of herself person plus a 2 pack a day smoker and I am complete opposite of her.
Am I babbling sorry! :o
never apologize for "babbling" forums are for venting and advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

menopause (peri or otherwise) is crazy!!!!!!!!!! If you can accept it as such, and go with the insanity, I would encourage avoiding psychotropic meds......Work out like crazy, chug warm milk before bed, eat mega nutrition.......but true messing with your serotonin/neurotransmitter levels is really not a good idea unless you are losing it.........In which case go for it........

[yellow]

Hang in there, girl. A bunch of us are with you. I was in the tampon-an-hour club before I finally had it and sought a remedy for that. It was absolutely, completely ridiculous. Talk to you doc about ways to deal with that.

I recently went back to my doc whining about a lot of the same things--ridiculously exhausted even though I have cut back on exercise in an attempt to "rest up" (completely ridiculous, as in I had to lie on the floor under my desk at work often because I just could not stand up any more), crazy mood swings, inability to sleep normally, and depression unlike any I've ever experienced. She did some blood work and most everything was normal, but my ferratin was low. I'm not anemic (all the other indicators were completely normal), but just low iron. Also, she found an interesting thing in the blood work: extremely high Vitamin D, as in on the way to toxicity. We figured out that it's probably my calcium supplement (most calcium supplements also have D in them) coupled with the fact that I am outdoors a LOT, so she instructed me to find a calcium supplement without D (I do not eat/drink any dairy, so a supplement is important for me). So who knows...could be some weird stuff like that going on.

Hopefully your blood work will give you some good information!

[Brandi]

Wow lot's of stuff to read here and remember what ? were asked here. First and foremost I do not get my periods because I have an iud that stopped them. So that might be a plus since my whole life my periods were way not normal. Can't tell you how many pregger's tests I bought because of it. Even on birth control they were not normal.
i promise I will not go lightly into medication without much research and a hopeful natural alternative first. But it could not be it at all I might just REALLY need a vacation. lol.But I believe something is off though.
I wish I could do yoga all day long that and riding my bike really help level me out.
I just want my energy back more then anything. I am off coffee and tea. That always gave me energy but I know it does not help.
Thank you all for your advice. I was hoping for more positive feedback but it sounds like it's not good. Sigh........of coarse my mom said it was no big deal for her. But she probably drank her way through it.

[Irulan]

never apologize for "babbling" forums are for venting and advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

menopause (peri or otherwise) is crazy!!!!!!!!!! If you can accept it as such, and go with the insanity, I would encourage avoiding psychotropic meds......Work out like crazy, chug warm milk before bed, eat mega nutrition.......but true messing with your serotonin/neurotransmitter levels is really not a good idea unless you are losing it.........In which case go for it........

Define "losing it".
Some of us have found out the really hard way that we do need medication to function at our fullest. There are situations, sometimes biochemical, sometimes dysfunctional emotional ones, where working out, warm milk, eating right, meditation, mindfulness and all that fun stuff just doesn't work. .

I believe that it's not right to dissuade people from exploring all the options open to them, even if they might involve (omg) medication. Drugs work. They work well, when used appropriately. For many people, it can be a short term situation where the quality of life is vastly improved. For others, biochemical imbalances can be a situation that requires more ongoing treatment.

Among my experiences have been fighting the idea of having to take drugs.... and then the profound relief and amazement of feeling better, lots better, better than I had for YEARS, in the matter of a few weeks.

Anxiety in particular is an energy sucker. It's wonderful how much life improves when all that negative wasted energy can be collected, calmed and channeled into more productive living.

Brandi, you might also look into AL Anon. It's a program for people who have alcoholics in their families, or grew up in alcoholic homes. The program offers a lot of great tools for dealing with anxiety and other issues that can be the collateral damage of living with alcoholics.

[Brandi]

I have done Al anon years ago. Not really for me though. I have gotten all that stuff out and found after a while that the program just constantly reminded me of how bad things were when things were actually waaaaay better. My parents not being in my life (my choice) or let's say held at arms length changed everything. Anyway I am very open to all idea's on how to handle whatever they come up with. I will do my homework for sure! And I know what works for me and have an amazing husband who will support whatever I have or have to do. I am looking for tid bits of wisdom from these great women here. Seems we have all been through a lot together.

[PamNY]

Thank you all for your advice. I was hoping for more positive feedback but it sounds like it's not good.

Brandi, nothing bad whatsoever happened to me. Really, I never even thought about "perimenopause" or had any symptoms of any kind.

I'd be really careful about attributing mental or emotional challenges to hormones.

[Irulan]

Brandi, nothing bad whatsoever happened to me. Really, I never even thought about "perimenopause" or had any symptoms of any kind.

I'd be really careful about attributing mental or emotional challenges to hormones.

It certainly depends and if you haven't been there, you wouldn't know or understand it. Part of my mood diagnoses are directly related to my cycles. This determination is made by my MD Psych, and the management plan is to not attempt to function without some medication assistance until my periods have completely stopped. This may not be the case for everyone, but it certainly is real and a problem for some people.

[indysteel]

Honestly, there are a lot of things at play here: brain chemistry, various types of hormones, perimenopause, upbringing, family history, personality, etc. Any number of things could cause the cluster of symptoms that the OP is experiencing, and our own experiences with this or that are only so instructive. I think the best thing at this point is for Brandi to go her doctor or doctors with an open mind. Listen carefully, take notes, ask questions, do some independent research depending on what any tests or assessments reveal, ask some more questions. Hopefully, there will be some clear answer as to what's wrong and an effective treatment.

[Brandi]

Honestly, there are a lot of things at play here: brain chemistry, various types of hormones, perimenopause, upbringing, family history, personality, etc. Any number of things could cause the cluster of symptoms that the OP is experiencing, and our own experiences with this or that are only so instructive. I think the best thing at this point is for Brandi to go her doctor or doctors with an open mind. Listen carefully, take notes, ask questions, do some independent research depending on what any tests or assessments reveal, ask some more questions. Hopefully, there will be some clear answer as to what's wrong and an effective treatment.
Yes I agree. Blood tests were done this morning after fasting should have hopefully some answer tomorrow. Feeling better just being proactive about it. Was not before...i was fighting it and going to the Doc. I don't know why I do that except out of fear I guess. Unreasonable fear too and I know it. It always seems once I go and see the Dr I feel better. Go figure. I need to be kinder to myself.

[Brandi]

Brandi, nothing bad whatsoever happened to me. Really, I never even thought about "perimenopause" or had any symptoms of any kind.

I'd be really careful about attributing mental or emotional challenges to hormones.
That is really good to know. You always hear the bad side of things like this and I know there are people who have had good experiences too. Or I should say it didn't bother them.

[shootingstar]

I didn't pay attention to this thread until now and realized what the topic was about.

So far, past 3 yrs. I haven't had bad experiences being in peri. For past few months, I just wake up with a flushed face in morning, 1-2 times per wk. and then in 5 min. the warmth is over. It's not even a hot flash for me. Just a warm cosy feeling.

:) Yes, am fading away period-wise.

Any emotional stuff is not attributed to that, I've had some major personal changes going on in life for past year.

[Brandi]

Sooooo not part of the club just yet. But the mental ward if I don't relax. I feel lame that I can't control this anxiety sometimes. Sigh.....They want me to take zoloft or something like it. I am going to look into natural remedies first as well as talk to my acupuncturist. He does chinese herbs for this and that. Also I am going to just relax from here on out.I know I can get over this myself.
I needed to know my body was not suffering from anything but my brain. If that makes since. PVC can be scary. But maybe now that once again I know I am physically ok I will start feeling better. Hormones are great, good LDL, all just where it should be and better so that is good. Now relax silly! And start counting those blessing's!
Thanks again for listening to me ladies. Merry Christmas!! XOXO

[owlice]

So you'll take "natural remedies" and "chinese herbs" that are not tested for safety and efficacy, but you won't take medication that is?? That seems ... ah.... backwards to me.

Sometimes I see people waving around the phrase "it's natural" as though that translates to "safe." Poisonous mushrooms and hemlock are natural, though definitely not a good idea.

I get PVCs, too, and when I feel them, I take a really deep breath and then exhale; if that doesn't stop them, I cough. Doing one or both of these things nearly always makes them stop.

I hope you feel better soon!

[Crankin]

You should keep an open mind, Brandi. Anxiety is a disabling thing and sometimes you need more than one thing to help make it go away. And, many of the natural remedies and herbs are unproven and could be dangerous. Some of the natural things that do work for many people are controlled breathing, meditation, yoga, progressive muscle relaxation, as well as learning what your triggers are for anxiety, keeping a thought journal, and yoga.
What you mentioned before, about your mother is really important. Even though you made the choice to separate yourself from her and lead a healthy lifestyle, with a supportive spouse, the fact is that anyone who experiences living with an alcoholic parent, abandonment, or any neglect at a young age has experienced trauma. It stays deep inside of our brains and can affect us in the most mysterious ways, anxiety being one. I have seen this over and over again in my work. While Al-Anon is a great support group, it really doesn't address these issues.
I suggest you work with a therapist who is knowledgeable in holistic strategies, but also has connections with a prescriber who is a psychiatrist, not your GP or gynecologist. PM me if you want more information.

[Brandi]

My mind is very open. i don't believe FDA approved drugs are actually any better then natural remedies to be honest and just because they are approved really means nothing. I can give many cases of approved drugs that have caused major harm. I will go with what I believe is right for me for sure. :)

[indysteel]

While I have nothing against drug therapies and understand that many people find them to be helpful and/or necessary, have you considered some form of talk therapy to help you deal with your anxiety and stress levels?

[goldfinch]

No matter what, evidence is good. You do not want to be an experiment of one, not knowing what experience others have had.

Here are a few reviews of what there is of evidence on some herbal remedies and dietary supplements for anxiety:
http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/13/4/312.full
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/568309
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18281839

The NIH has a site where you can look up search herbal remedies and supplements for what evidence is known about their effects: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/herb_All.html

Arm yourself with knowledge.

[Crankin]

All medicines have side effects, including herbal ones. Just because something is "natural" does not mean it's safe.
Those links are quit good, Goldfinch. Frankly, I would not mess around with any herbal preparation, unless it was vetted in a large research based clinical trial and recommended by a physician. There are quite a few medical doctors who practice holistically and might prescribe herbal remedies, if they were found to be safe (i.e. no things like hepatic damage!).
Yes, there are side effects to psychotropic drugs, and most people have to try adjusting dosage, time of administration, or switching to a different medication before they find something that works and doesn't cause annoying or even dangerous side effects. I tell my clients that I am neither pro nor anti medication; it is up to each person to decide for themselves. But, just taking medication without on-going therapy, at least for awhile, is not solving the problem.
I have a friend who is prescribed Lexapro by her Ob-Gyn :eek:. She's taken it for years, and it is doing nothing for her escalating mood lability. She thinks it's working, but she doesn't take it as prescribed, i.e. she thinks she only needs to take it when she feels "bad." This person desperately needs therapy and medication prescribed by a mental health provider. My feeling is that a lot of people are getting psychotropic meds this way (from a PCP) and then when they don't work, they just quit and never try anything else, under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing.

[OakLeaf]

Well the last two links are to the same article (one is an abstract only), and none of them reviews any TCM methodologies. And, in other contexts, I know the scientists here have decried meta-analyses over and over again.

A reputable acupuncture physician prescribes traditional Chinese herbs that have been tested over thousands of years. If they don't buy their herbs directly from the grower (or grow them themselves!), they know which brands are produced according to GMP. Acupuncture physicians trained at quality US schools are also educated in north/western medical principles so that they can coordinate their efforts with practitioners of north/western medicine. I'm pretty sure, but not 100%, that the same is true with Chinese-educated doctors.

Historically, for reasons that have much to do with misogyny, European and North American industrialized medicine suppressed traditional medicine to the lasting detriment of both. The same is not true of Chinese medicine where techniques and understandings are viewed as complementary and not distinct, and a unified system of medicine has been allowed to evolve.


Leaf through a PDR some time and observe what percentage of FDA-approved drugs carry the notation "mechanism of action is unknown," including most popular psychotropics. Then come back and talk about how herbs don't work because north/western doctors don't understand how.

My acupuncture doctor retired from a long career as an environmental engineer and spent two years in medical school before transferring to acupuncture college because he didn't want to be a pill-pusher (his words). It's not like he's lacking in "scientific" background.


I think there can be a lot of potential problems when Chinese herbs are used by people with a north/western understanding of medication - i.e., throw things at the illness until something sticks. TCM has much more to do with treating the person, not the condition, and so even more than with psychopharmaceuticals, it's important that Chinese herbs be prescribed by a trained provider.

[bmccasland]

(((((Brandi))))

Go with what works for you. I've been prescribed various psych meds to control migraines and help deal with work stress. It is important to take your meds as directed. But I also learned, twice, that I couldn't tolerate the side effects when my dosage was increased - one dropped my blood pressure too much, and the other left me in a zombie state.

When the night sweats and then waking up cold wouldn't let me get a good night's sleep, waking something like 8 times a night - my OB/GYN put me on hormone replacement - which was a godsend. Eventually I was tapered down to the lowest dose possible, then a few months ago I weaned myself off them without too much trouble. I had tried to wean myself off a few years ago, but the nightly hot&sweaty/freezing cycles were too much.

Better living through chemistry. :rolleyes:

[Crankin]

Oh, I'm not saying herbs don't work. I just don't feel comfortable in using them for myself. What I am really trying to say is that *everything* can have scary side effects, and just because something is herbal, doesn't mean it won't have side effects. And I also understand that Chinese medicine has been used for years and western medicine has shunned it. There needs to be a happy medium. I just get worried when people say they will only consider "natural" treatments and don't see herbals as medicines that can have side effects.
I think you are right, Oak, about acupuncture physicians from US trained schools. I went to one who helped me tremendously. Like yours, he was headed to med school, when a friend he had dissuaded him. Instead, he went to acupuncture school. Now, he trains doctors at Harvard Med School, in addition to his practice. He was even a former cyclist, who happened to race on the same team that my son was on.
Most people don't really evaluate whatever medicines they are taking. I tend toward the opposite, to the point of making myself not read too much now, or I would not ever take anything. I am just too psychosomatic. However, I did take Attivan without "thinking" and it really helped me. I was quite motivated not to misuse it, and the prescribing psych. was pretty adamant in telling me that she didn't see me as someone who had an addictive personality. However, she did try me on Celexa and Prozac, both of which made me feel worse. That's when I started the acupuncture. I am not sure if it was strictly the acupuncture that "cured" my anxiety, as I was also doing the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction class, yoga, and therapy. Professionally, I really think it is often a mixture of things that help people and what is good for one person may do nothing for another.

[goldfinch]

Well the last two links are to the same article (one is an abstract only), and none of them reviews any TCM methodologies. And, in other contexts, I know the scientists here have decried meta-analyses over and over again.

Sorry about the duplicate link. There is plenty of criticism out there on TCM methodologies. Most of the studies require subscriptions to the sites and I wanted to give non-subscription links.


A reputable acupuncture physician prescribes traditional Chinese herbs that have been tested over thousands of years. If they don't buy their herbs directly from the grower (or grow them themselves!), they know which brands are produced according to GMP. Acupuncture physicians trained at quality US schools are also educated in north/western medical principles so that they can coordinate their efforts with practitioners of north/western medicine. I'm pretty sure, but not 100%, that the same is true with Chinese-educated doctors.

Historically, for reasons that have much to do with misogyny, European and North American industrialized medicine suppressed traditional medicine to the lasting detriment of both. The same is not true of Chinese medicine where techniques and understandings are viewed as complementary and not distinct, and a unified system of medicine has been allowed to evolve.


Leaf through a PDR some time and observe what percentage of FDA-approved drugs carry the notation "mechanism of action is unknown," including most popular psychotropics. Then come back and talk about how herbs don't work because north/western doctors don't understand how.

My acupuncture doctor retired from a long career as an environmental engineer and spent two years in medical school before transferring to acupuncture college because he didn't want to be a pill-pusher (his words). It's not like he's lacking in "scientific" background.


I think there can be a lot of potential problems when Chinese herbs are used by people with a north/western understanding of medication - i.e., throw things at the illness until something sticks. TCM has much more to do with treating the person, not the condition, and so even more than with psychopharmaceuticals, it's important that Chinese herbs be prescribed by a trained provider.


Chinese herbs have not been scientifically tested over and over again for 1000s of years. Scientific methods are much newer than that. Instead, much is tradition. And much of the tradition is more myth than fact. For example, acupuncture has a questionable history, with some kind of needling going in and out of popularity in various countries, has varied in how it was practiced over the years, and became popular in China when Mao pushed it as cheap medical care. Mao was the one who called it traditional. Acupuncture has now been studied using scientific methods and has come out wanting, no better and sometimes worse than sham acupuncture (placebo). The quality of research coming from China on acupuncture is extremely poor and uncontrolled. My opinion has nothing to do with some kind of eastern/western dichotomy or prejudice. It only has to do with evidence. That is all I care about.

Harriet Hall says it better than me:

Guess what? It doesn’t matter where you put the needle. It doesn’t matter whether you use a needle at all. In the best controlled studies, only one thing mattered: whether the patients believed they were getting acupuncture. If they believed they got the real thing, they got better pain relief – whether they actually got acupuncture or not! If they got acupuncture but believed they didn’t, it was less likely to work. If they didn’t get it but believed they did, it was more likely to work.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/puncturing-the-acupuncture-myth/

No matter how sincere the practitioner is, the underlying theory of acupuncture has no good science behind it. Accreditation of practitioners is not based on validity of what is being taught, unlike evidence based medicine.

Phrases like "treating the whole person, "complementary medicine," and "traditional medicine" are warm and fuzzy but essentially meaningless. Ask you doctor, does she not treat all of you? There is only one medicine, the medicine that has demonstrable knowledge of the risks and benefits of its tools so decisions can be made on how to treat an individual. I don't care what part of the world it comes from.

I know that periodically I come down hard on altmed. I know that I risk offending some of you when I criticize what you believe to be true. I acknowledge that there are good reasons why people lost trust in Big Pharma. But I trust Big Altmed even less. It pretends to be the underdog when it often is big business with a strong lobby resisting regulation. People who criticize altmed are sometimes slapped with lawsuits to shut them up, with no regard to free exchange of ideas. When I worked on lobbying on health care issues I was threatened with a suit for criticizing a particular alternative medicine practice. Everything I said could be backed up by the facts but facts were not relevant to those making the threat.

Altmed marketing is misleading. Altmed treats supplements as food and not drugs but then want people to take them like they are drugs. The get away with the quack version of a "miranda" warning:
These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.


They couch their claims in vague language like "boosts the immune system," "detoxifies the liver," "cleanses the whatever" or "good for heart health."

Pseudo-science passes for science. And people like Oprah get enamoured of the latest fad.

It wore me out. But I can't keep my mouth shut.

[Dogmama]

Growing up with alcoholic parents is anxiety provoking. Their primary relationship is with their bottle, not you. My parents were alcoholic & drug addicted. When I hit perimenopause, it was like the flood gates opened. After trial & error, I found a good therapist whom I continue to work with.

I also have a board certified psychiatrist who prescribes my med. Mental health is just as important (if not more so) than physical health. I would not ask my PCP to do heart surgery.

"Natural" vs FDA - I used to work with Andy Weil. He would tell you that FDA medicines have their place. We don't know enough about brain chemistry, so it's all trial & error. I tried herbs & they didn't work for me, but they must work for some people. I felt like I "caved" when I started FDA drugs, but when I began to feel better, it didn't matter anymore.

Back to my original reason for posting, though, don't discount living with alcoholic parents. It affects us profoundly and on many levels. Al Anon is good if you can find a good group. Unfortunately, many of them want to be victims & they don't move out of their pain. My mantra is: "My parents may have made me crazy - but now it is MY insanity. What am I going to do with it?"

[Crankin]

Thank you.
This advice is so much more meaningful coming from another person in the same situation, rather than from a professional.

[Irulan]

Ditto on dogmama's succint post.

[owlice]

What goldfinch said. Seriously, look at evidence, not claims, facts, not fiction. And Brandi, from what you've posted, it seems to me your mind is definitely not open... to evidence, anyway.

Also sick of pseudoscience,
Owl

[pll]

I will echo what owl said -- be open minded.

I will also second the idea of talk therapy. It is a hard thing to do, but you reap the rewards in the long run. Some years ago, I needed to get through a rough spot. A friend (a pediatric psychiatrist) recommended a psychiatrist that was very good: she did talk therapy and was into all kinds of alternative therapies. I am the nightmare customer for doctors because I am not a believer in pills (or herbs), so we tried a number of alternatives between pills and types of therapy. For me, cognitive behavioral / talk therapy worked best. <life would be easier if I could enjoy some placebo effect.>

My point is that you can find a well qualified therapist. In my case, I found the perfect "bundle" of therapy and competence writing prescriptions. Having the same person do both was great as we started every meeting with an assessment of how the medications were working. I also worked with her in discontinuing them gradually,

Indeed, we know very little about brain chemistry and there is a lot of trial and error, but at least one part of medicine has a measure of scientific testing.

[OakLeaf]

Well it *has* been a long holiday, hasn't it.

I too am sick. I am sick of doctors taking advantage of a gullible old woman and a delirious old man to torture my father to death. He deserves very little, but he deserves a better death than he is getting from them. Any human being does.

I am sick of the practice of medicine bearing more resemblance to "The Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" than to anything any rational person would voluntarily choose.

And I am sick of "religions" of all kinds (doctrines that theirs is the One True Belief System) that would rather destroy a thing than learn about it.

[goldfinch]

Well it *has* been a long holiday, hasn't it.

I too am sick. I am sick of doctors taking advantage of a gullible old woman and a delirious old man to torture my father to death. He deserves very little, but he deserves a better death than he is getting from them. Any human being does.

I am sick of the practice of medicine bearing more resemblance to "The Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" than to anything any rational person would voluntarily choose.

And I am sick of "religions" of all kinds (doctrines that theirs is the One True Belief System) that would rather destroy a thing than learn about it.

I am very sorry about your father.

Believe me, I have educated myself on acupuncture and several other altmed practices. I never, but never, simply want to destroy something rather than learn about it. Never. I just a lot of questions and follow the evidence.

[shootingstar]

Hmmmm.

Goldfinch, I appreciate how important the scientific evidence is for validated medical treatments. But if someone does get better permanently or gets relief for several months because of a placebo effect AND the treatment is not rip-off expensive/won't bankrupt the patient or is subsidized, then ok.

I am certain now when my father gives the ok for chemotherapy for his prostate cancer, he will deteriorate and never return to his health now. I think what is keeping him afloat now and probably for next few months, alot of it is psychological now. The physicians (including my sister who is one) have left this decision entirely up to him and no pressure for chemo.

It truly is amazing how one's attitude and psychological equilibrium can have such a powerful effect..in staying alive.

As for Brandi, I second counselling. With the right therapist, you won't regret it.

[OakLeaf]

Sorry.

Let me put it more politely: "Evidence" that holds the experience of the patient as irrelevant is not an adequate foundation for practice. It may contain important building blocks, but when information derived from patient experience is expressly rejected, then it has no business creating patient experiences. This isn't number theory or theoretical physics. This is human beings' lives.

Every acupuncture doctor I know has a far higher opinion of north/western medicine than I do, and there's a reason for that: they work with medical doctors, while I worked with patients. Medical records and client interviews tell a very different story than cells under a microscope do.

[pll]

OakLeaf: A good doctor will take the patient experience into account. However, large medical trials show whether something can work or not, and they keep track of adverse effects. If you will, a large trial should will provide systematic evidence about the average effect (wash away placebo effects that may enhance the effect of a drug, or idiosyncratic reactions). That is the kind of evidence and information I want from doctors before tinkering with my system in any way. Something may not work for me, but at least it should have a reasonable chance of working and not just rely on anecdotal or incomplete evidence.

[goldfinch]

Oakleaf, absolutely the individual's own experience must be considered. Sometime I would like to hear more about issues you have heard from patients that have caused them or you to distrust their medical providers.

I actually have some mixed feelings about use of placebos. I can imagine circumstances where a placebo treatment is innocuous and even a bit helpful. After all, putting a band-aid on a child's skinned knee makes the child feel better. You paid attention to the child. You did something. A good placebo.

However, I do not have mixed feelings about the extensive resources that are poured into types of treatments that do not work, which involve clearly deceptive claims, which are scientifically unsound but are presented as if they were sound, and which have harmed people, such as through misdiagnosis and failure to get treatments that work. I do not want to search for truth in a hall of mirrors, where subjectivity is confused with objectivity.

In the face of lack of evidence for things like acupuncture some practitioners have argued that it is the power of the placebo we need to harness. But the problem is that for objective physiological outcomes there usually is no placebo effect. The effect appears limited to subjective, nonspecific effects. For example, there was a study comparing objective and subjective responses to placebo treatment for asthma, as compared to using an asthma drug. Only the drug improved lung function. But those who had the placebo reported subjective improvements significantly greater than the no treatment group. They felt better but they were not better. The study is discussed here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/spin-city-placebos-and-asthma/

So, another risk. You get a treatment you believe in strongly and you feel better. But you are not better.

Well, I'll sign off now as I am starting to ramble and I am tired.

[missjean]

Brandi, you say "heart palps (which I have had for years but have been worse since Aug of this year)" Having had your blood tests, you might already know the answer, but just in case - I was having *lots* of heart beat irregularities that my regular Dr didn't seen very worried about. It was getting worse & worse and I was getting very worried.

I went for an annual check up with my GYN and told him about very heavy periods, (but not about the heart issues, I figured it was the wrong end of the body for him to have an opinion about.) He took blood and I found out I was very anemic. I started on iron pills and to my surprise, the heart issues have almost completely gone away.

I did some on-line research and found out that along with the usual symptoms of anemia, such as fatigue; heart irregularities, and thinning hair (which was also happening, and has stopped) can happen.



.

[Brandi]

What goldfinch said. Seriously, look at evidence, not claims, facts, not fiction. And Brandi, from what you've posted, it seems to me your mind is definitely not open... to evidence, anyway.

Also sick of pseudoscience,
Owl
Huh? What did I say or do to make you think this?

[Brandi]

Brandi, you say "heart palps (which I have had for years but have been worse since Aug of this year)" Having had your blood tests, you might already know the answer, but just in case - I was having *lots* of heart beat irregularities that my regular Dr didn't seen very worried about. It was getting worse & worse and I was getting very worried.

I went for an annual check up with my GYN and told him about very heavy periods, (but not about the heart issues, I figured it was the wrong end of the body for him to have an opinion about.) He took blood and I found out I was very anemic. I started on iron pills and to my surprise, the heart issues have almost completely gone away.

I did some on-line research and found out that along with the usual symptoms of anemia, such as fatigue; heart irregularities, and thinning hair (which was also happening, and has stopped) can happen.



.
My blood test w as both my regular gp and my gyno. They both put what tests they wanted. I am already feeling calmer. I have been feeling good. But looking into talking with someone and still going to my acupuncturist, Going to see how that goes. But seriously feel better. Still tired though.

[owlice]

Huh? What did I say or do to make you think this?
This:
i don't believe FDA approved drugs are actually any better then natural remedies to be honest and just because they are approved really means nothing. I can give many cases of approved drugs that have caused major harm. I will go with what I believe is right for me for sure. :)
Compare studies -- competent scientific studies -- for the "natural remedies" just as you would for "approved drugs." From what you posted, you are already discounting the efficacy of FDA approved drugs. That is NOT an open mind.

[Dogmama]

Methinks that a large part of why alternative (complimentary) medicine works is that we get a professional who listens to us. Our HMO driven doctors have 15 minutes. The placebo effect, power of suggestion, whatever you want to call it, is very strong. If my PCP is distracted, orders a bunch of tests & then reads them according to a chart, rather than according to my personal biochemistry, I am not getting optimal care. If an acupuncturist takes time to check my tongue, pulses & listens to my concerns, I feel like I've been heard and the treatment is working.

When I worked with Dr. Weil, an initial visit in his clinic (at a hospital) was 1.5 hours to 2.0 hours and conducted by an M.D. His/her case was discussed at their meetings and a careful treatment plan that included supplements, meditation, etc., was outlined. A friend of mine came back from the gulf war with a bad neurological condition that the V.A. could not cure. Dr. Weil's group has helped him stop trembling and greatly improved his quality of life.

Did supplements, meditation, etc., cure him? Or did the care of a professional have a huge impact? He will tell you that he doesn't care. As long as he can live his life using only a cane he's a happy camper.

So, rather than arguing alternative vs allopathic vs FDA vs supplements, we should be seeing how we can best blend our knowledge. Dr. Weil has said repeatedly that if he breaks his leg, don't give him lavender to calm him down - get him to a hospital!

[Crankin]

This.
No matter how much it is researched, it cannot be empirically proved that one type of psychotherapy works better than another. What does repeatedly show up is that "the relationship heals"
It may not be exactly the same, but you get my point.

[Brandi]

This:
Compare studies -- competent scientific studies -- for the "natural remedies" just as you would for "approved drugs." From what you posted, you are already discounting the efficacy of FDA approved drugs. That is NOT an open mind.
I think what I meant was weather herb or prescribed both can have there draw backs and some (not all) can cause bad side effects. I myself will look into both and choose (hopefully) something that works well for me. I was on a birth control that after being on the market for years was found to cause serious problems but lucky for me it didn't. So you can see where I might be a bit shy to taking anything.

[Brandi]

I am feeling better just being proactive and trying to find out what is wrong. Funny since I have stopped completly focusing on it I feel better. But I need to address the issue. Talking about it has helped a lot. My husband is encouraging me to talk to him about it. Having someone listen to you really helps. And Dr's can rush you through at times and make you feel not cared for. Lucky for me I have not felt like this this time around.

[beccaB]

Well it *has* been a long holiday, hasn't it.

I too am sick. I am sick of doctors taking advantage of a gullible old woman and a delirious old man to torture my father to death. He deserves very little, but he deserves a better death than he is getting from them. Any human being does.

I am sick of the practice of medicine bearing more resemblance to "The Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" than to anything any rational person would voluntarily choose.

And I am sick of "religions" of all kinds (doctrines that theirs is the One True Belief System) that would rather destroy a thing than learn about it.

I'm with you on that one. My relationship with my savior is personal to me and I chose to worship in the way I see fit. After all, my savior was able to reach me in the way that was right for me. I am from a diverse mix of religions. Some Jewish and even possible some Mennonite way back. Of all people I completely respect diversity and personal choice.

[beccaB]

Oh, and I haven't had a period in 5 months. After a lifetime of every 28 days almost to the HOUR, amazingly, the last 2 years were very weird and irregular with cramps coming back into the picture. I hope the period is gone for good. I'm 50, and I'm not sorry to not be having them anymore. (hopefully!) I have had a few mild hot flashes, and have dealt with anxiety in the past and have the tools to deal with it now. I went through a pretty bad experience this past spring that lasted until the fall, and I came out on top of that one. I think I'm liking this 50 thing, except for the arthritis part, which may be related more to structure than age.

[PamNY]

I am feeling better just being proactive and trying to find out what is wrong. Funny since I have stopped completly focusing on it I feel better. But I need to address the issue. Talking about it has helped a lot. My husband is encouraging me to talk to him about it. Having someone listen to you really helps. And Dr's can rush you through at times and make you feel not cared for. Lucky for me I have not felt like this this time around.

I'm really glad to hear that you are feeling better. I think being proactive and sharing your concerns are very positive steps. Good luck!

[Brandi]

I'm really glad to hear that you are feeling better. I think being proactive and sharing your concerns are very positive steps. Good luck!
I think too not giving the palps as much attention as I was has helped too! Also I am finding that I think I have been bottling things up and trying to be more vocal about what I don't like and how I feel has helped some too.
Trying to find a therapist to talk to as well. My insurance is not great (even though I pay out the nose for it) so trying to find someone who will work with me.

[Brandi]

Well it *has* been a long holiday, hasn't it.

I too am sick. I am sick of doctors taking advantage of a gullible old woman and a delirious old man to torture my father to death. He deserves very little, but he deserves a better death than he is getting from them. Any human being does.

I am sick of the practice of medicine bearing more resemblance to "The Old Woman Who Swallowed A Fly" than to anything any rational person would voluntarily choose.

And I am sick of "religions" of all kinds (doctrines that theirs is the One True Belief System) that would rather destroy a thing than learn about it.
I here you! And I am sorry i didn't respond earlier. They are torturing my mother in law as well. She is on I think 9 different drugs at 3 times a day! And she has no idea what any of them do! She says to keep her alive but at the same time they seem to be making her forget who she is. @ 83 and still living on her own I worry that all these meditcations are stealing what is left of her. That may seem harsh to some but seriously all these meds and she hasn't a clue what they are for? Granted my sister in law is watching out for her but after loosing her daughter a few years ago to Huntington's at age 21 she is kinda done and is just maintaining my mother in law. Even she doesn't know what they are all for. Sad.

[Crankin]

That is not right, Brandi. I know you are not there to help in this situation, but if a doctor doesn't clearly explain what each medications for, then the patient, or someone needs to advocate for her. It is not safe for someone not to know what medications are for; your s-i-l or another responsible adult needs to go to a doctor's appt. with your m-i-l and write down the information. If this isn't possible, they can go to Elder Services in their town, county, or state and have a case worker help with this.

[Brandi]

That is not right, Brandi. I know you are not there to help in this situation, but if a doctor doesn't clearly explain what each medications for, then the patient, or someone needs to advocate for her. It is not safe for someone not to know what medications are for; your s-i-l or another responsible adult needs to go to a doctor's appt. with your m-i-l and write down the information. If this isn't possible, they can go to Elder Services in their town, county, or state and have a case worker help with this.
I know and we have tried to be active in this but my husband had a strange falling out with his sister when his mom first started having issues last year. He offered to take over for his sister (who has power of attorney) and she flipped out on him. And then hung up when he said she was being irrational (big mistake). She claims all is under control when I talk to her.
I don't know. We have gone and stayed with her and she has such an awful time remembering things. I think the drugs don't help. She refuses to go live in a home. Has always said she does not want that. Her sister lived in one for years and her mind went so I think she is really scared of that.
It is tough when you have brother's or sister's have different idea's of how to do things.
And I am just the wife you know I can only say so much.

[PamNY]

That sounds tough, Brandi. Good luck.

Could your husband talk to the pharmacist, at least? Sometimes they are very helpful.

[Brandi]

We are pretty far from her. About a 5 hour drive. And his sister is so not wanting us to butt in. I hate that this has happend. I thought we were a better family then this. Sigh.:(

[WindingRoad]

I am curious what is the earliest some of you have hit perimenopause? I researched it a bit on my own and found most institutions would say it can start as early as 35 but I wonder if that is applicable in the real world?

[OakLeaf]

I was in my late 30s when I started having irregular periods. So I don't think 35 is out of the question at all.

[Crankin]

Yup, I was about 38 when I started having vague symptoms. By 42 I was going 2-4 months without a period, and they got really heavy. I had all the terrible pms symptoms you could imagine and they got worse. I went for eleven months without having a period, two times, at age 45 and 47, and finally, when I was 48 they stopped for good. Ten years. I only had hot flashes for about 2 years after it totally stopped.