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shootingstar
12-13-2011, 03:23 AM
About digital media/books, technological distractions for the youngsters and losing patience to read:


In the meantime, she worries, huge monuments of human culture threaten to disappear from consciousness. The “demise” of 19th- and early 20th-century literature is continuing, according to Wolf, who says she has been overwhelmed by mail from educators confirming her fears. “They’re all talking about how their students don’t have the patience any more,” she says.

So goodbye George Eliot, Henry James, et al.

“Syntax is a reflection of the convolution of thought,” says Wolf, who studied literature before turning to linguistics and studying under Noam Chomsky. “As we become too impatient to read complicated syntax, I wonder out loud about the capacity for handling the complexity of issues that are out there in life, with all their semicolons.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/books/books-vs-screens-which-should-your-kids-be-reading/article2268465/page1/

Would you agree that more kids have less patience to read a thick book from cover to cover these days?

I think it depends if they are allowed to choose whatever and given time (is that possible) that is distraction free...

I confess that I haven't read a novel ...in over 18 months or more. I read non-fiction from cover to cover. And one of my degrees is English Lit. :o

And I am by formal training, career-wise have been a librarian. Not public librarian but in engineering and law. I haven't used my own library in the latest city where I live to get a book. I used to be an avid reader right into my early 30's.

I am far from being a great example at this point in life. But still would be getting nieces and nephews interested in books.

Pax
12-13-2011, 05:25 AM
I think the Harry Potter phenomenon demonstrates that younger people will still read, as long as it's something that sparks their imagination.

I'm still a voracious reader, as is my mom, SIL, and 28 year old niece. If reading becomes habit when you're young I think it will have a better chance at surviving the onslaught on the digital age.

Owlie
12-13-2011, 05:43 AM
I read, just not in the same way I used to. I used to be able to read a book cover-to-cover in one sitting if I had the time. Now I'm reading 30-50 pages at a time. Maybe it's just that I have other responsibilities?

Becky
12-13-2011, 05:56 AM
I'm not sure that we give our young people enough time to become engaged in longer, more complicated books. I'm blown away by the stresses and responsibilities placed on friends' and coworkers' kids, not just by their parents but by society. The pressure to do well on standardized tests and earn 4.0 GPAs while being captain of the swim team, volunteering, and playing in the marching band....is it any wonder that teens are exhausted and burnt out?

OakLeaf
12-13-2011, 05:59 AM
I don't know about Canada, but I think in the USA, the vaunted universal literacy is largely a myth. As the most recent assessment of adult literacy (https://nces.ed.gov/naal/) demonstrates, a majority of adults can't comprehend non-fiction prose pieces that likely seem simple to most of us here.

I think what we're actually seeing is the opposite phenomenon. With the advent of the digital age, people are communicating more and more by the written word. Marginal literacy has been the norm for decades (prior to that, illiteracy was the norm), but now it's in plain view of those of us with advanced reading and writing skills, and in direct contravention of our cultural myth of literacy. It's not as though a person can either read Plato in Greek, or nothing more than her name, and there are no gradations of literacy in between.

Parallel to that is the current economic situation, creating deep pressures on people's time and psyches. People are so consumed by basic survival that they can't even pay attention to the road while they're driving ... or remember that they left their babies in the hot car after they park. Few people have the time or psychic energy to read.

lph
12-13-2011, 06:12 AM
My son of 14 is WAY better than I am at reading thick books from cover to cover. And while it's not Plato, it's not all Harry Potter either, he reads adult fiction too.

I love to read, but my concentration is a lot worse now than it was when I was a teen plowing through books late at night.

zoom-zoom
12-13-2011, 06:56 AM
We have the opposite problem with our nearly 11 year old. We've had to tell him that he can't just sit and read at recess...he HAS to be social, too. His social skills are somewhat lacking and it's in part because he'd rather hole up in a corner with his nose in a book than cultivate friendships. And often it's not that he's reading something new and gripping...he's rereading the same novels over and over. We wish he'd embrace a happy medium.

zoom-zoom
12-13-2011, 07:00 AM
Future writer.

I wish...he LOATHES writing...at least writing by hand. He suffers from worse penmanship than I do. I look forward to the day when he can type more. I think that will help him to get words on paper as fast as his brain works.

His dad does the repeat readings of books, too. I've never been able to do that. There are a lot of movies I can't re-watch, either. I need the mystery of what's next.

Owlie
12-13-2011, 07:13 AM
We have the opposite problem with our nearly 11 year old. We've had to tell him that he can't just sit and read at recess...he HAS to be social, too. His social skills are somewhat lacking and it's in part because he'd rather hole up in a corner with his nose in a book than cultivate friendships. And often it's not that he's reading something new and gripping...he's rereading the same novels over and over. We wish he'd embrace a happy medium.

I was "that kid" in elementary school...actually, up through junior high. (And yes, I'd re-read books.)

VeganBikeChick
12-13-2011, 07:16 AM
I find that I get completely distracted these days when I'm reading, and I think a lot of the new technology has to do with it. I'll read for a bit, then feel the need to go online, or check my phone. It's actually unnerving to me that I can't sit still and focus.

Anelia
12-13-2011, 07:16 AM
I think it depends if they are allowed to choose whatever and given time (is that possible) that is distraction free...

I confess that I haven't read a novel ...in over 18 months or more. I read non-fiction from cover to cover. And one of my degrees is English Lit. :o

And I am by formal training, career-wise have been a librarian. Not public librarian but in engineering and law. I haven't used my own library in the latest city where I live to get a book. I used to be an avid reader right into my early 30's.
It's as if I'm reading about myself. I used to read a lot until the Internet appeared. No we're reading forums :)


Maybe it's just that I have other responsibilities?
Yes, I notice that I read when I am on a vacation (without the bike) but that happens once in a blue moon :o

I'm not sure that we give our young people enough time to become engaged in longer, more complicated books. I'm blown away by the stresses and responsibilities placed on friends' and coworkers' kids, not just by their parents but by society. The pressure to do well on standardized tests and earn 4.0 GPAs while being captain of the swim team, volunteering, and playing in the marching band....is it any wonder that teens are exhausted and burnt out?
I can't agree more with you. I feel guilty if I have to make my son read a book after he had done all his homework and he longs for the time when he can watch TV or play computer games.

I don't know about Canada...
OakLeaf, I think you have wonderful style of writing. Are you a journalist ot some kind of writer?

We have the opposite problem with our nearly 11 year old. We've had to tell him that he can't just sit and read at recess...he HAS to be social, too. His social skills are somewhat lacking and it's in part because he'd rather hole up in a corner with his nose in a book than cultivate friendships. And often it's not that he's reading something new and gripping...he's rereading the same novels over and over. We wish he'd embrace a happy medium.
I think you shouldn't worry. People and children change a lot during their lifetime. He'll get out some day and he'll socialize.

Pax
12-13-2011, 07:18 AM
I wish...he LOATHES writing...at least writing by hand. He suffers from worse penmanship than I do. I look forward to the day when he can type more. I think that will help him to get words on paper as fast as his brain works.

His dad does the repeat readings of books, too. I've never been able to do that. There are a lot of movies I can't re-watch, either. I need the mystery of what's next.
I re-read and re-watch things constantly. The first read/watch I'm all about the story, subsequent reads/watches reveal more and more detail, very exciting.

Crankin
12-13-2011, 07:56 AM
The only reason DS #1 got in trouble at at school was for skipping gym and going to the library to read

OakLeaf
12-13-2011, 07:58 AM
PS - I've never had the patience for Victorian or Edwardian novels. Not even 30+ years ago when I was studying Anglo-Saxon homilists. :rolleyes:

shootingstar
12-13-2011, 08:24 AM
In the area of literature, from academic study and personal taste, I always preferred contemporary. Medieval, Rennaissance (which most people know as Shakespearean), Augustan (18th century), Victorian and Romantics (Yeats, Blake), only helped me gain cultural appreciation of English lit. Otherwise I found it abit of slog to read the stuff.

All of the above literary knowledge actually enhances my understanding when I look at visual art from those areas as well. Otherwise I wouldn't have been so drawn artistically to visit those museums, galleries...it is one big complete pkg. of Western civilization appreciation for me.

Zoom Zoom- Another cyclist (male) father of 2 teen boys, also voiced the same annoyance/concern of lack of social skills.

I was sort of like that child, except I was raised in a big family so one is forced to acquire social skills anyway .. :o If the child already has 1-2 good buddy friends, that's at least a good sign.

Children with intellectual interior life (in their brain) who appear lonely, in my opinion, do have great potential...well to become well-rounded. It's easier in my opinion to take a slightly introspective child and help them become more "socialable" because they may already be aware of certain gifts/skills that they can share/use more broadly.

So I was the child /teen bookworm, art dabbler and seamstress at that time. I had lots of time to think about what I was/wasn't capable of and explore it.

Of course cycling is a bit solitary too. :rolleyes:

shootingstar
12-13-2011, 08:27 AM
The only reason DS #1 got in trouble at at school was for skipping gym and going to the library to read

Rather amusing, if you think about it.

Veronica
12-13-2011, 08:40 AM
I think children will rise to the expectations you have for them. I'm constantly being told by my peers that I get "all the good kids." No, I just expect them to be the "good kids." Current project in my class is a Newberry book report.


Veronica

Owlie
12-13-2011, 08:52 AM
PS - I've never had the patience for Victorian or Edwardian novels. Not even 30+ years ago when I was studying Anglo-Saxon homilists. :rolleyes:

I don't either. Dickens? Blech.

Pax
12-13-2011, 08:53 AM
PS - I've never had the patience for Victorian or Edwardian novels. Not even 30+ years ago when I was studying Anglo-Saxon homilists. :rolleyes:

After immersing myself in reading lots of current novels/websites and blogs/and magazines, I use pre-1900 literature as a jump start for a sluggish brain.

Pax
12-13-2011, 08:54 AM
I don't either. Dickens? Blech.

I have a second edition of Great Expectations, my honey will read it aloud on long car trips. I love the way Dickens turned a phrase.

Biciclista
12-13-2011, 08:56 AM
Pax, me too. And I love Dickens. The color!!!

zoom-zoom
12-13-2011, 09:13 AM
Zoom Zoom- Another cyclist (male) father of 2 teen boys, also voiced the same annoyance/concern of lack of social skills.

I was sort of like that child, except I was raised in a big family so one is forced to acquire social skills anyway .. :o If the child already has 1-2 good buddy friends, that's at least a good sign.

Children with intellectual interior life (in their brain) who appear lonely, in my opinion, do have great potential...well to become well-rounded. It's easier in my opinion to take a slightly introspective child and help them become more "socialable" because they may already be aware of certain gifts/skills that they can share/use more broadly.

So I was the child /teen bookworm, art dabbler and seamstress at that time. I had lots of time to think about what I was/wasn't capable of and explore it.

Of course cycling is a bit solitary too. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I think part of DS's "problem" is that he's an only child. My DH was/is very much like our son in many ways (and also an only child), though he has a VERY tightknit network of friends, now. Mostly from work and cycling. My brother (middle of 3 kids...and my son takes after him in MANY other ways) also didn't really develop a lot of close friendships until college. So part of me doesn't worry so much about the social stuff, because I think part of it's genetic/inborn personality type as much as it is the bookworm thing.

Pax
12-13-2011, 09:22 AM
Pax, me too. And I love Dickens. The color!!!

Yes! I love the way he painted a picture for his readers; before color photographs/TV/movies it took an excellent writer to put you in the story.

Penny4
12-13-2011, 09:31 AM
I'm not sure it is any worse today than when I was in school 25 years ago. I would say the majority of my classmates (myself included) had to use Cliff Notes to get through the Scarlet Letter. WHile i found the plot interesting, I just couldn't wrap my head around the language. And the teacher never helped us with that part of it. Same with Chaucer, SHakespeare, etc...

limewave
12-13-2011, 10:43 AM
I'm not sure it is any worse today than when I was in school 25 years ago. I would say the majority of my classmates (myself included) had to use Cliff Notes to get through the Scarlet Letter. WHile i found the plot interesting, I just couldn't wrap my head around the language. And the teacher never helped us with that part of it. Same with Chaucer, SHakespeare, etc...

My parents had subscribed/bought some series of children's abridged version of the classics. We had almost every children's versions of the novels on my AP reading list. It was AWESOME. The abridged version had all the important details without the old-english I couldn't understand. That with the Cliff Notes, I aced AP english. My reading comprehension is pretty low, I've always struggled with it. I have tried--forced myself--to be a better reader. I just don't have the aptitude for it. However, I love reading for pure entertainment.

Crankin
12-13-2011, 12:37 PM
OK, I have more time to respond now.
I have always been a voracious reader, since age 5 when I learned, both fiction and non fiction. Both of my parents are (were) very intellectual, even though my mom only went to college for 2 years and my dad skipped that to do WW2. They were always, always gong to the library, or renting books from the local bookstore. And, Book of the month Club, along with getting 10 magazines, and doing Theatre Guild every month. No wonder I became an English teacher.
However, despite loving American Lit (Fitzgerald, Hemingway), I hated the obtuse language of Victorian, Renaissance writers, whether it was Old English, or something translated from the French or German. I used the Cliff notes in HS, but I do remember having 2 really good English Lit teachers in college. Then, after I got my master's in Special ed, and I was working on my English certification, I took a more advanced English lit. class. The whole thing was related to literature that was based on Christian allegories/New Testament, which,ah, was not in my brain. I got a B+, but I struggled.
DS #1 is just like me, but even smarter. I mean, frighteningly intellectual. He is the one who reads all of that "hard stuff" in the original, speaks a foreign language, and is a published writer. He collects old books now, as well as reading on a Kindle and print. He was very social as a kid and did all of the kid stuff, but he always was a reader and writer. So were all of his close friends. I even enjoy reading his reviews on Yelp.
My other son didn't read as much as a younger kid. He mostly read non-fiction, until HS and then, all of a sudden, became just like his brother. Despite no college degree, he is extremely well read, and he can do that hard stuff, too. He read 40 books on his first deployment! Now he just downloads the stuff to his Kindle.
DH, well, not a reader. He reads non fiction, about all of his technical and hobby interests (cycling, etc), magazines, work stuff. Every year, he reads one or two big long non- fiction books, usually biographies of presidents or other political figures. He said his goal this year is to read more, but he always said he didn't know what the heck the 3 of us were talking about, when we asked each other what genres we were reading.

shootingstar
12-13-2011, 03:45 PM
The whole thing was related to literature that was based on Christian allegories/New Testament, which,ah, was not in my brain. I got a B+, but I struggled.


Much of the older literature 17th century and back, was like that --full of religious allegories and metaphors, etc. That was part of my problem as well: except for me that was my primary undergraduate degree focus.

Literature is both universal in subject, but cultural in context. And religious in my mind, is twinned/embedded in culture.

Probably part of my problem not wanting to read novels, is the quality novels are more serious and require some careful thought at times. I guess either I don't want to make the effort or...I'm avoiding something. After all, good literature prompts the reader to reflect on what they know/experience.

I just want an easy read but still learn something so I turn to full length non-fiction books.

I never used Cliff (in Canada it's Coles) notes.

I do think there is interest in reading still but do seriously wonder if more and more people want sound byte like info. or a novel length cut in half.

I used to read 1 book in 1 day years ago. Now it's spread out over weeks. If it's good, I like to savour it. :)

Crankin
12-13-2011, 03:54 PM
I haven't read a book (other than professional) since October. So unlike me. I read (fiction) all through my recent grad program, probably as an escape. I like historical or realistic fiction; nothing too difficult. I've been on a kick reading about Spain or Portugal and the Inquisition, mostly about the Marranos, or "secret" Jews of that time.

Koronin
12-13-2011, 04:25 PM
I've never been one to read much. If I'm not interested in the book to begin with (doesn't matter what it is) I can't read it. Heck, I got through HS without reading much of anything for English Lit. College I carefully picked the Lit classes to where I knew it wouldn't take much to get a good grade in them. Actually one had something or other to do with movies and the other one had to do with plays. Then again you can say the same things for anything I had to take in school as well, if I didn't like or care for the class I didn't really bother with it and typically still got A's or B's. (The exceptions being Foreign Language and Chemistry). The only other class I had a C in was Physics and I actually liked that class, but they changed teachers part way through the year and I could figure out the new teacher.

shootingstar
12-14-2011, 03:31 AM
Whenever I walk by a bookstore, I remind myself:

I still have 100 more books in another province that I haven't shipped over yet.

bmccasland
12-14-2011, 06:42 AM
I managed to escape my local small book shop without buying anything for me - was there to buy a book for my 10-yr old nephew. Bought "Dangerous book for boys". My DS is going to hurt me :o:D The book has a variety of topics (reading) with an activity, disclaimer in front to follow all instructions carefully with an adult. :rolleyes:

indysteel
12-14-2011, 07:29 AM
I managed to escape my local small book shop without buying anything for me

That takes some serious self-control!

Pax
12-14-2011, 07:36 AM
That takes some serious self-control!
I feed my addiction at the four local used book sales we have here each year. At one the books are .75 for a paperback and $1.00 for hardcover; since this is a fairly literate university town, the choices are great!

indysteel
12-14-2011, 07:39 AM
I feed my addiction at the four local used book sales we have here each year. At one the books are .75 for a paperback and $1.00 for hardcover; since this is a fairly literate university town, the choices are great!

Can I move in with you and your honey? Central Indiana isn't the most literary of cities. Sadly, we don't even have a bookstore, chain or otherwise, in downtown Indy anymore. Oh, what I wouldn't do for a Powell's or the like.

WindingRoad
12-14-2011, 07:59 AM
I find that I get completely distracted these days when I'm reading, and I think a lot of the new technology has to do with it. I'll read for a bit, then feel the need to go online, or check my phone. It's actually unnerving to me that I can't sit still and focus.

Amen Sister, lol! I'm there! My version did come with a diagnosis however :)

Pax
12-14-2011, 08:12 AM
Can I move in with you and your honey? Central Indiana isn't the most literary of cities. Sadly, we don't even have a bookstore, chain or otherwise, in downtown Indy anymore. Oh, what I wouldn't do for a Powell's or the like.

Come on over! :p

I definitely realize how lucky we are in this town. We have a vibrate arts community, a wonderful live music scene, and access to lectures and symposiums from some of the brightest minds in the world. Other than the weather, it's almost perfect.

Crankin
12-14-2011, 08:24 AM
Indy, make friends with your local librarian. Really. When I first moved back here, I lived in a small rural town that had little money and was full of people who didn't value anything literate. But I found support at the local library.
And, I got all of the town gossip there, too.

indysteel
12-14-2011, 09:21 AM
Indy, make friends with your local librarian. Really. When I first moved back here, I lived in a small rural town that had little money and was full of people who didn't value anything literate. But I found support at the local library.
And, I got all of the town gossip there, too.

That's a very good suggestion, especially since (a) I haven't been able to make any friends in my town and (b) the library is just a few blocks away.

ridenread
12-15-2011, 03:06 AM
My husband and I are both readers and have devoured books since early childhood. My nine year old has finally discovered the pleasure of reading as well. In the past year he has progressed from begrudgingly reading Captain Underpants and other picture books to mastering Moby ****. He and my DH were having this in depth conversation about Moby ****. I have tried several times but have never been able to get through it.

shootingstar
12-15-2011, 03:13 AM
Ah, your pseudonymn.. :) Moby **** wasn't my thing at all.

But I loved reading for a long time. As a kid/teen I devoured the average of 1 bk. daily which is why now I'm surprised at myself not wanting to read a novel.

I even had a good buddy friend where she and I compared occasionally how much we were reading. She tended to be abit more social: even at 14 yrs. she started to express clear feminist opinions in class. This was in the mid 1970's.

I respected her for that plus her fun cartooning.
Zoom-zoom: May your son find a pal like that...equally introverted but lots of fun.

jessmarimba
12-15-2011, 06:18 AM
The only reason DS #1 got in trouble at at school was for skipping gym and going to the library to read

I used to get in trouble in English class (or whatever it was called in elementary/junior high). We would read out loud and take turns going around the room, and the other kids read so slow - I would have a normal sized novel tucked inside my school literature book and try to hold it so the teacher couldn't see and I could read what I wanted at my own pace. But 8-year-olds aren't as sneaky as they think. I'm pretty sure now that the teacher always knew and only rarely scolded me.

I think as Oak was saying, the digitial use of the written word exposes gradients of literacy. Even for those who are very well-spoken, I notice lots of written errors that bookworms are less likely to make, such as the your/you're, they're/their/there, and (sorry to rehash) apostrophes to pluralize or even change verb tense ("she run's to the store"). Kids who read voraciously at younger ages seem to internalize those rules.

Sorry if this was brought up, didn't quite make it through all of the comments...and now I'm going to go back into my hole until the weekend. Already worked 40+ hours the last 3 days and now I'm getting sick (again).

Owlie
12-15-2011, 08:30 AM
I used to get in trouble in English class (or whatever it was called in elementary/junior high). We would read out loud and take turns going around the room, and the other kids read so slow - I would have a normal sized novel tucked inside my school literature book and try to hold it so the teacher couldn't see and I could read what I wanted at my own pace. But 8-year-olds aren't as sneaky as they think. I'm pretty sure now that the teacher always knew and only rarely scolded me.

I think as Oak was saying, the digitial use of the written word exposes gradients of literacy. Even for those who are very well-spoken, I notice lots of written errors that bookworms are less likely to make, such as the your/you're, they're/their/there, and (sorry to rehash) apostrophes to pluralize or even change verb tense ("she run's to the store"). Kids who read voraciously at younger ages seem to internalize those rules.


Even in an advanced English class in sixth grade, we had to read books out loud, and everyone was so slow. I'd read ahead, then get in trouble because I wasn't on the same page as everyone else. I think the teacher just assumed that I wasn't paying attention, and I wasn't self-confident enough to say "Actually, I finished the book" or something.
I definitely agree with internalizing rules of grammar (and spelling). I had those down in elementary school. Of course, now that I'm not reading so much, I've gotten much worse. How much of that is the lack of reading and how much is the lack of formal writing, I don't know.

Feel better!

NbyNW
12-15-2011, 09:35 AM
I definitely agree with internalizing rules of grammar (and spelling). I had those down in elementary school. Of course, now that I'm not reading so much, I've gotten much worse. How much of that is the lack of reading and how much is the lack of formal writing, I don't know.


This is fascinating. I've been thinking there must be some kind of practice/repetition aspect to rules of grammar/good spelling -- like you, I was a voracious reader as a kid and internalized a lot prior to formally studying grammar, and spelling always came easy.

However, I've noticed a couple of time that following a stint abroad where I am immersed in a foreign language, that I will make mistakes, while writing or keyboarding -- things like the wrong version of a homonym or an apostrophe in the wrong place -- they just flow out, but I always catch them quickly.

As for reading, I've rediscovered my love of leisure reading during my time of unemployment. I would go nuts right now if all my reading were work-related.

shootingstar
12-15-2011, 10:54 AM
This is fascinating. I've been thinking there must be some kind of practice/repetition aspect to rules of grammar/good spelling -- like you, I was a voracious reader as a kid and internalized a lot prior to formally studying grammar, and spelling always came easy.


I was always a good speller until the past few years. I've just become more careless in proofreading. Not good.

I believed for a long time that my good spelling tendencies was because of reading alot. This is an excellent reason why we should continue to pay attention to our word spelling and correct grammar: it does model other people's abilities to spell accurately long term.

I also feel that taking Latin in high school for few years, enhanced my spelling abilities since it demonstrates the origins of some English words.

Reading on my own heavily during primary school years, was to help ramp up my English language skills which I learned only after kindergarten even though I was born in Canada.

I was reading adult books from age 9 onward. Of course that was interspersed with books meant for teens.

NbyNW
12-15-2011, 12:09 PM
I make it a rule to never proofread my own stuff ... a fresh set of eyes is always best, if you can build a good rapport with another co-worker who also has good grammar and spelling skills.

indysteel
12-15-2011, 12:22 PM
I make it a rule to never proofread my own stuff ... a fresh set of eyes is always best, if you can build a good rapport with another co-worker who also has good grammar and spelling skills.

I am a bad proofreader of my own work. By the time I hand it over to my boss, I have most of my text memorized, so when I read it, my eyes gloss over much too much. Try as I might to catch my own typos, I always miss something. Thankfully, my boss is pretty kind about my mistakes, but every once in a while, he'll say something a little snarky. Given how good my work is substantively (in my humble opinion), it kind of hurts my feelings, but I don't otherwise have anybody else to proof my work for me.

lph
12-15-2011, 01:19 PM
I am a bad proofreader of my own work.

Yup, me too. I rarely misspell anything, but I can get caught up in my own convoluted syntax which makes perfect sense from inside my own head and no sense to anyone else... :D I don't mind people pointing it out, I can usually see it myself when they do.

But I do have issues with this one boss at work, who will not agree on certain writing principles that to me are just elementary. He insists on documents with standard "recapping titles" that turn out 5 lines long, and where 90% of the words are regurgitated information and the final word or two is essential. Aaaargh.

An example would be if I titled this post: "TeamEstrogen Forums, Open Topic (non-cycling): Re: shootingstar "Losing patience to read deeply" - Re: indysteel, reply: LPH"

NbyNW: I'm bilingual English/Norwegian, but write and read a lot more English that I speak. When I spent two months in France struggling to speak my high-school French daily, I suddenly had trouble writing letters home in English. Seemed there was only room in my head for two languages at a time... A bit unnerving actually.

indysteel
12-15-2011, 02:00 PM
See, that's what frustrates me, lph. I will write an involved and complicated legal analysis that is pretty darn tight. It'll have great syntax and structure. Substantively, it's fantastic. But I'll leave out a word or forget an "s" or misspell a party's name. Stupid stuff that I should catch. My boss will come into my office and say "sounds great minus your typos." Argh!!!

I actually think being a voracious and fast reader works to my detriment in reading my own work. I have to really try to slow down.

Blueberry
12-15-2011, 02:01 PM
Indy - I could have written your post. It's not just you:o:o

shootingstar
12-15-2011, 02:07 PM
It is not realistic for me to give most of my docs. for someone else to proof-read. Most of the stuff is internal but reports to go Senior Management and pile of other people.

People are caught up in their own work. Administrative Assistant does a narrow defined type of work because same person covers work for other divisions. After all, for some professional positions, one gets hired, partially for their advanced communication skills.

Crankin
12-15-2011, 02:28 PM
The way for anyone to proof their own work for spelling errors is to read it backwards. Yes, from the end to the beginning. That way, you are not focused on meaning, but you actually see the word structure. This worked 99% of the time when I was teaching.
Editing grammar/syntax, etc can be done by the writer, but you have to read your work out loud to yourself. It's not a quick process, but again, it works almost all of the time.

indysteel
12-15-2011, 02:38 PM
Indy - I could have written your post. It's not just you:o:o

You know what the say about great minds!

My other problem is that by the time I am done with a draft opinion, I am SO sick of it. While this isn't true of all my work, I sometimes spends weeks on a single opinion. A few have taken even longer than that. It's hard fir me to read and reread it for typos; I just want it off my desk. All this said, I am proud of my work. Being an avid reader as a child made me into a lover of language and words. I may not be creative in the traditional sense, I do think of myself as a writer.

jessmarimba
12-15-2011, 07:01 PM
You know what the say about great minds!

My other problem is that by the time I am done with a draft opinion, I am SO sick of it. While this isn't true of all my work, I sometimes spends weeks on a single opinion. A few have taken even longer than that. It's hard fir me to read and reread it for typos; I just want it off my desk. All this said, I am proud of my work. Being an avid reader as a child made me into a lover of language and words. I may not be creative in the traditional sense, I do think of myself as a writer.

Haha! My work is the total opposite speed but no easier to deal with. I generally have about 2 days to fully research and crank out a report. By the time I'm done with one, I'm so completely fried and frazzled with keeping things organized (and remembering to re-discuss the right problems in the right sections) that re-reading it, none of it makes sense. Usually I catch small problems when I copy-paste to other sections of the report, but occasionally I'll forget the big stuff. Like remembering to copy-paste it to begin with.

I spent 14 hours straight yesterday writing up one project. Passed out at 11 last night, woke up to an email with more research that needed to be included. Added that in - got an email an hour later that it had been reviewed, could I do corrections? Yes, I have time, but I need a nice long walk, a cup of tea, and some crossword puzzles first!

laura*
12-15-2011, 09:16 PM
We have the opposite problem with our nearly 11 year old. We've had to tell him that he can't just sit and read at recess...he HAS to be social, too. His social skills are somewhat lacking and it's in part because he'd rather hole up in a corner with his nose in a book than cultivate friendships.

You've mentioned your son being ADHD. Perhaps the reading is his own way of generating enough stimulation to keep his mind occupied. In other words, socializing during recess might be insufficiently stimulating to keep his attention.

Crankin
12-16-2011, 03:00 AM
Or it might be just one of the things that he likes so much that he can deeply focus. This is quite common.
DS#2 had about 13 "obsessions" before leaving home, from Ghostbusters, to juggling, to cycling. We once "had" to take him to see the MIT juggling club perform in a snowstorm. Reading was one of them, too, particularly, long, difficult books about history, politics and war, which probably led him where he is today: USMC.

goride
12-16-2011, 04:44 PM
Even in an advanced English class in sixth grade, we had to read books out loud, and everyone was so slow. I'd read ahead, then get in trouble because I wasn't on the same page as everyone else. I think the teacher just assumed that I wasn't paying attention, and I wasn't self-confident enough to say "Actually, I finished the book" or something.


This - exactly! Additionally, I am a very visual learner, so I didn't retain anything I didn't read on my own.