Apostrophes or is it apostrophe's? [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

Veronica

11-18-2011, 06:46 AM

Our PTA printed out posters and hung them all around the school to advertise a fundraiser. There were so many errors in it, I wanted to use it for daily editing practice with my students. The biggest was the misuse of apostrophes. Every time a word ended in s, there was an apostrophe - sometimes before the s and sometimes after. There shouldn't have been any apostrophes at all.

I KNOW I'm a grumpy grammar grinch, but apostrophe misuse is beginning to get to me. :p So I present a min lesson - it's the 5th grade teacher in me.

You don't need an apostrophe if all you are doing is making something plural - more than one.

You do need an apostrophe to show possession - ownership. If it's only one owner the apostrophe goes before the s. If it's a plural owner, the apostrophe goes after the s. The only exception to this I can think of, is the word its. This "its" is the possessive one.

You do need an apostrophe in contractions to replace the missing letters.

Why does this matter? It matters because writing is communication. Rules of grammar, spelling and punctuation were developed to make communication easier. Communication does not occur in the mind of the writer; it occurs in the mind of your reader.

Yes, that is exactly what I tell my students every day! :D

Veronica

PS This post isn't intended to be hurtful or unkind, merely instructional. :) I still recall how I relieved I felt when I FINALLY figured the difference between then and than. Many thanks to Mrs. Woodbrey, my awesome Latin teacher, who actually took the time to explain it to me.

OakLeaf

11-18-2011, 07:01 AM

Communication does not occur in the mind of the writer; it occurs in the mind of your reader.

I love this' line! :D

maillotpois

11-18-2011, 07:09 AM

Can't believe the PTO didn't grammar check - what a terrible example!! :rolleyes:

Em's only remaining apostrophe error is occasional omission when she intends a possessive. I corrected a few of those last night in her honors world history work. It'll sink in. Eventually. :rolleyes:

Eden

11-18-2011, 07:32 AM

My question is why does my spell checker dislike "women's"..... I get it that womens is not right as women is already plural, but something can belong to a group of women..... I always see the little red dots when I want to write about "women's racing" or "women's fields"... to call them woman's seems more incorrect to me... (and so that it is not sexist it also dislikes men's)....

(I think I just answered my own question... it should be women' to follow the pattern of not putting an 's on something that already is plural, but IMHO that's kind of stupid, because you cannot speak an '.... so in speaking to someone you would have to say the s to sound right and be clear.... apparently British English allows 's on men's and women's - I agree with the Brits)

Irulan

11-18-2011, 07:39 AM

Examples illustrated here.

http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/apostro.asp

I still have to mentally do "is it a contraction?" for "its" vs "it's".

Eden

11-18-2011, 07:44 AM

ohhhhh she disagrees with my spell checker and allows women's.... I think I'll keep using it despite being harassed by the little red dots.

Irulan

11-18-2011, 07:47 AM

Here's a local one that drives me nuts.

Shamuss's Sandwiches

Is that correct or not?

Eden

11-18-2011, 07:52 AM

Here's a local one that drives me nuts.

Shamuss's Sandwiches

Is that correct or not?

That is along the lines of what I was looking at, plural possessives and pluralizing things that end in s. I think that should be Shamusses' Sandwiches..... but if you really ask me, it is somewhat arbitrary to do it that way.... It doesn't change the meaning to write Shamuss's v/s Shamusses'.

OakLeaf

11-18-2011, 08:18 AM

You'll see authorities on either side of that one. IIRC (and it's been a long time and I have no idea where my copy is now :D), Strunk & White are [were? okay, that one I'm not looking up] in favor of it. I prefer it with the 's, myself. But I don't think there's any support for adding an "e" - I've never seen it that way.

ETA - haha, that was hard - my brittle-paged second printing Elements of Style was right next to my neglected print Petit Larousse, and the very first rule in it is:
Form the possessive singular of nouns by adding 's. Follow this rule whatever the final consonant. Thus write,

Charles's friend
Burns's poems
the witch's malice

Exceptions are the possessives of ancient proper names in -es and -is, the possessive Jesus', and such forms as for conscience' sake, for righteousness' sake....

Biciclista

11-18-2011, 08:20 AM

Veronica, I applaud your attempts at teaching literacy in this crazy world.

Veronica

11-18-2011, 08:25 AM

My kids this year are just eating it up. They know the difference between independent and dependent clauses and can correctly punctuate sentences with both types of clauses. They know what an appositive is and can punctuate that. I wish I could get them to use more of these things in their own writing, but I believe that will come with time.

I just hope it sticks. :p

Veronica

7rider

11-18-2011, 08:27 AM

ohhhhh she disagrees with my spell checker and allows women's.... I think I'll keep using it despite being harassed by the little red dots.

I find my spell checker is frequently incorrect.
I click "ignore" a lot. :cool:

Crankin

11-18-2011, 09:18 AM

Thank you.
I absolutely detest the increasing number of writers who think you need to use an apostrophe any time there is a "s" at the end of a word. It doesn't surprise me that there were such mistakes on a PTA poster. As a former writing teacher, I loved teaching my kids how using appositives, dependent, and independent clauses made them better writers. When done with the intent of teaching them to be able to express themselves better, they ate up the grammar teaching, just as Veronica describes.
It hurts my eyes to read some of the posts on TE. I know that using apostrophes incorrectly is not a sign of a personality deficiency, but... I guess I am old fashioned; I still proof my posts, even though this is not what I call "formal" writing.

Irulan

11-18-2011, 09:20 AM

I find my spell checker is frequently incorrect.
I click "ignore" a lot. :cool:

Can't you add it to the spell checker?

KnottedYet

11-18-2011, 09:21 AM

Misplaced apostrophes and misspellings can make my eye stumble as I'm reading, but I know what the writer is trying to say. Doesn't upset me.

I grew up in a family rolling in librarians and authors with an easy-going attitude toward that kind of stuff. If a friend or forum-buddy makes a grammar mistake but you know what they are trying to say, it doesn't matter.

But if a publisher or professional messes up... watch out! :eek:

7rider

11-18-2011, 10:04 AM

Can't you add it to the spell checker?

Sometimes I do. Sometimes I don't.

carlotta

11-18-2011, 02:52 PM

My English teacher as a sophomore in HS was quite into grammar.... we spent eons learning 6 or 8 rules for comma usage (and semicolons, etc.) and it was absolutely miserable. There were also large chunks of class devoted to writing intro/concluding paragraphs of essays (also miserable).

I wish I knew where to find her now (she retired a year or two after I graduated) so I could THANK HER, thousands and thousands of times.

I've never had to think about comma usage, and I am a much better writer for the year I spent in her class. I also wish I could find those rules so I could share them with a number of grad students and PhD's that I work with....

indysteel

11-18-2011, 03:03 PM

Make that PhDs.

Not to make an example out of you, but it's another way I see apostrophes being misused. Acronyms are no different than any other word on how to make them plural.

Irulan

11-18-2011, 03:15 PM

I struggle with comma use, especially in technical writing. DH has me read his reports before he sends them out. I have found a few good websites and bookmarked them for reference.

Its and it's is another confusing one.

I, for one, appreciate this discussion.:D

carlotta

11-18-2011, 03:29 PM

I knew I'd make a mistake in that post... but I think most traditionalists would argue that it's really Ph.D.s

Or is it Ph.Ds.?

:D

indysteel

11-18-2011, 03:43 PM

I knew I'd make a mistake in that post... but I think most traditionalists would argue that it's really Ph.D.s

Or is it Ph.Ds.?

:D

Beats me. In all fairness, there is some dispute as to whether certain acronyms, e.g., those with periods, and usages like "the 1980s" should take an apostrophe. I, personally, prefer them without because it seems more consistent with the other rules on apostrophe use. Whichever rule you follow, just be consistent in any given communication.

bluebug32

11-18-2011, 04:51 PM

Beats me. In all fairness, there is some dispute as to whether certain acronyms, e.g., those with periods, and usages like "the 1980s" should take an apostrophe. I, personally, prefer them without because it seems more consistent with the other rules on apostrophe use. Whichever rule you follow, just be consistent in any given communication.

Most of these types of questions depend on the style book you're referring to.

yellow

11-18-2011, 04:57 PM

Grammar Girl (http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/)!

She has great articles about apostrophes, then/than, effect/affect, and the like.

I often feel I need therapy to deal with my reaction to apostrophe abuse and what seems to be an up-and-coming victim: the ellipsis. I have a co-worker who is unable to use a single period in her writing. She separates all sentences with an ellipsis (and generally adds one to the end of a sentence). I think she's trying to say that all of her thoughts--all of them--are unfinished and she is unsure. All I know is that I cannot take her seriously. In the last several years I have noticed a lot more ellipsis abuse, especially associated with casual writing in email and in forums. OK, fine. But DO NOT USE ELLIPSES IN PLACE OF REAL PUNCTUATION IN EMAILS THAT GO TO CLIENTS! Not that I feel strongly about it or anything. :rolleyes:

indysteel

11-18-2011, 05:17 PM

Most of these types of questions depend on the style book you're referring to.

Yes, I know. It's too bad that the correct standard isn't more settled. It seems needlessly confusing.

goldfinch

11-18-2011, 05:22 PM

I think some of the rules are unnecessarily complex. For example, the whole lie, lay, laid, and lain thing should be tossed out and redone.

I am not fond of "that" and "which" either.

So there! :)

But at least our words don't have genders. Seems like a silly concept when you aren't born to it.

jessmarimba

11-18-2011, 05:31 PM

I wish whoever authors our templates at work could learn punctuation in relation to quotation marks. It looks so funny to me to see commas following an end-quote. I correct them for my personal reports but most people don't mess with template language (since it's supposed to be standard).

I think the templates are probably maintained by the same manager who ALWAYS uses an apostrophe to pluralize things. I've suggested we ought to contract to a real live editor (or similar) to give our report language a once-over, as I find it hard to take someone's work seriously when it isn't presented professionally, but it doesn't seem to bother anyone else on staff.

Veronica

11-18-2011, 05:42 PM

I think some of the rules are unnecessarily complex. For example, the whole lie, lay, laid, and lain thing should be tossed out and redone.

This gives my fifth graders fits! I try to approach it with which one needs a direct object. You lay "something" down. Or you, yourself, lie down and take a nap. :D

Of course once you move into the past tense, all bets are off. :rolleyes:

Veronica

goldfinch

11-18-2011, 06:40 PM

This gives my fifth graders fits! I try to approach it with which one needs a direct object. You lay "something" down. Or you, yourself, lie down and take a nap. :D

Of course once you move into the past tense, all bets are off. :rolleyes:

Veronica

Yup. My feeling is to drop lay as the past tense of lie.

bluebug32

11-18-2011, 06:41 PM

Yes, I know. It's too bad that the correct standard isn't more settled. It seems needlessly confusing.

It is. At least most of my jobs have followed the Chicago Manual of style.

OakLeaf

11-18-2011, 07:30 PM

the ellipsis

:o:o

Am I still allowed to use it in forum posts?

I consider this sort of medium as pretty much the ultimate in informality ... emoticons and all ...

KnottedYet

11-18-2011, 08:28 PM

I admire someone much more for what they have to say than how they say it.

(and some people I find disgust me for the exact same reason)

I like her idea's and I think shes a valuable member of this forum and her post's add a lot more than some folks's.
I'm tired of the perennial grammar lesson's whenever she return's to TE.

zoom-zoom

11-18-2011, 08:46 PM

A local politician just used who's instead of whose on his FB page - more than once in a post. It makes me cringe. I like the guy, but it's hard to take seriously an educated person with such a weak handle on basic grammar.

jobob

11-18-2011, 09:31 PM

So I'm going to have a cow if this topic comes up for a FOURTH TIME when she begin's posting after a long absen'se. Three is my limit. I've reached my limit.

Seems like you had that cow already if the last four (or was it five?) previous versions of this post were any indication.

Correction, six.

KnottedYet

11-18-2011, 09:40 PM

Oh, cool, I'm someone's hobby!

What a warm feeling that gives me! My very own stalker!

Yes, more than that. Maybe 10 or 12 versions by now. How do I say what I want with just that right touch of righteous indignation, the right level of gutter repulsion, the right firmness defending someone I really like who keeps getting slammed for the same damn (meaningless) thing over and over again?

I'm glad you enjoy the show. Maybe I'll change it a few more times.

Stay tuned! :D

ClockworkOrange

11-19-2011, 01:36 AM

I have met many people over the years who are dyslexic, also people on other forums and although I totally agree with the OP, we still have to remember this is only a forum and it would be a shame to put anybody off from posting, for fear of being ridiculed. :rolleyes:

PS Only just noticed this, love it.

Oh, cool, I'm someone's hobby!

OakLeaf

11-19-2011, 03:39 AM

Crankin

11-19-2011, 04:10 AM

I would never give anyone direct grammar advice on this forum.
Most people don't care about grammar, in any situation, so this is *my* issue. In a lot of cases, poor grammar is some form of learning disability; in others, poor teaching.
Just saying it bothers me to see it, as it seems to be a growing problem, everywhere, even in professional contexts, as so many of you have mentioned.

I am glad Veronica is inspiring young writers to learn the correct usage of grammar, in a way that makes it useful. When I first started teaching English, I was very much against direct teaching of grammar rules, because as a Special Ed teacher, it just never worked. But, I developed some strategies that worked in the context of some pretty detailed and creative writing pieces. Not everyone learned everything they needed to, but it didn't feel painful, in the way it had in the past.

yellow

11-19-2011, 04:28 AM

in any situation, so this is *my* issue.

+1

Hence my feeling that I need therapy to deal with it. Much like I need therapy to deal with riding in a car for a long time.

Things become standard and accepted after a while. It's happened throughout the history of language. I do think that while this is happening, those of us who might write for a living should try to produce professional, readable documents with correct punctuation and correct spelling. Outside of the professional realm? Doesn't matter so much. That's when it really becomes my problem. Language is changing. It happens.

So, Oak, you can use as many ellipses as you want! :p (And for the record, I didn't really have much of a reaction to ellipses until this co-worker came along. She completely destroyed them for me, which is too bad, because they are a genuinely cool form of punctuation.)

indysteel

11-19-2011, 04:47 AM

Well, y'know, right at this very moment we have the other thread going on about people who give well-meaning but unsolicited advice about diet.

The consensus in that thread is that although it's really tempting to give that sort of advice, it's also extremely inappropriate, and very hurtful to the person on the receiving end.

The difference would be ....... ?

I see some difference. What is and is not an "appropriate" diet is both highly subjective and highly personal. Grammatically correct communication is arguably neither of these things, minus the areas that are the subject of debate or style. I do think you have to tread lightly when correcting someone's grammar, but it can be done constructively and with good intentions. Perhaps I just have thicker skin about it. My boss edits my writing every day. I'm the queen of unintended typos, so red ink is my friend. I know grammar far better than he does, so I will edit his writing if necessary, too. The point is that we strive for effective communication.

Now, I must have missed the part where Veronica directed this at a particular member. I was also unaware that this has come up before with this member. Perhaps it is time to let the subject go then if past attempts have failed. If this thread was intended for her or she takes it that way, then I hope that she views it as constructive criticism. No one wants to ridicule her; at least I don't.

Irulan

11-19-2011, 07:03 AM

snapdragen

11-19-2011, 08:14 AM

You didn't miss it as it didn't happen. I for one was enjoying this thread as an educational discussion that we all could either contribute to or take something from. Or as they say elsewhere, "take what you like and leave the rest". Or, is that, ."?

Thank you, I thought I was losing (loosing!!!! :D) my mind trying to find the singled out individual.

As a grammatically challenged individual, I appreciate this thread. :o

snap "who has been known to run posts through the Word grammar checker" dragen

Eden

11-19-2011, 09:01 AM

I think I know of whom Knot refers, but my world is a bit happier I guess, as the thought never passed my mind that the OP was directing this at anyone in particular.

I'm not a huge grammar stickler -especially in formats like a forum, where I actually appreciate (and use) lots of non-standard punctuation to simulate more of a conversational rhythm in a written form. I think if I didn't, I might sometimes come across as a bit deadpan or be misunderstood, because no one else can hear the voice in my head that carries all of the emotion and intonations...

I've also been studying a foreign language recently, and it's an Asian one, so I have little expectation of ever being able to read more than a few words here and there.... The fact that I'm really concentrating on spoken language and trying to understand normal every day conversation has made me very aware of how incredibly different written language and spoken language really are. People simply speaking to one another rarely speak in complete formal sentences - to do so makes you sound very stilted and strange. When we write it's totally different - and I think it is because there isn't immediate context, so writing in sentence fragments becomes very difficult to understand.

snapdragen

11-19-2011, 09:35 AM

Now...(love my elipses too.) Let's get this back on track and teach me some more 'o this grammer stuff. I'm not going to delete any of the off track posts, I'll leave that up to the posters themselves . (Oh god, do I need any more apostrophes?)

........... whee!!!

OakLeaf

11-19-2011, 10:15 AM

I finally got around to reading Eats, Shoots & Leaves last year. I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as I did, but it's a very enlightening read.

Just remember ... in a world without punctuation, stuff like this (https://secure.flickr.com/photos/crashcu/169305589/) happens all the time.

But folks like Shakespeare communicated their ideas fine without strictly standardized punctuation (or spelling).

snapdragen

11-19-2011, 10:19 AM

I finally got around to reading Eats, Shoots & Leaves last year. I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as I did, but it's a very enlightening read.

Just remember ... in a world without punctuation, stuff like this (https://secure.flickr.com/photos/crashcu/169305589/) happens all the time. But folks like Shakespeare communicated their ideas fine without strictly standardized punctuation (or spelling).

That would be an interesting job interview..:eek:

SheFly

11-22-2011, 03:19 PM

Most of these types of questions depend on the style book you're referring to.

You mean: Most of these types of questions depend on the style book to which you are referring. Right? :D

SheFly (That is a situation up with which I cannot put. Mark Twain)

eta - I just read to the end of the messages. This post is NOT a target at Bluebug, nor anyone else on the forum. MY personal grammar pet peeve happens to be dangling participles. That and using phrases like "In order to" instead of just saying "to". My issue only. Oh wait - I think I just wrote an incomplete sentence!

OakLeaf

11-22-2011, 03:26 PM

You mean: Most questions of this type depend on the style book to which you are referring.

Fixed that for ya. :p

SadieKate

11-22-2011, 03:45 PM

Anyone remember the Barbara Cartland novels which were quite racy back in the day? At camp we used to read them aloud . . . including the dot-dot-dots.

Back then (yes, the Dark Ages) it all would have been typeset. Oy.

Oh. Sorry. Oy . . .

jessmarimba

11-22-2011, 05:29 PM

You guys might find this funny.

At Target, at the pharmacists' counter, they have a little pamphlet:

Where's it at? Here's a map!

"Where's it at?" Really, Target? Your editing staff didn't catch that? It MIGHT be acceptable if "at" rhymed with "map." But it doesn't. It makes me cringe so badly that I may email corporate to ask what on earth they were thinking.

BikeDutchess

11-22-2011, 06:04 PM

I should have taken a picture of the sign at the grocery store last night. A professionally printed sign, I might add.

Turkey's $0.99/lbs

lph

11-23-2011, 02:50 AM

Late in. I have my pet peeves, but then I have my blind spots too. I can blame them on being bilingual but truth is there's a limit to how much I want to check on my posts.

A few thoughts: good spelling, grammar and syntax are assets when trying to communicate well. But so is a clear idea of what you're trying to say, to whom. You have terrible spelling and still get your idea or message through loud and clear, and you can write technically flawlessly, and have people going "huh?" It's the idea that gets communicated in the end that matters most to me, not the technique along the way. And on this board I enjoy a lot of the random rambling too.

Back to apostrophes: in Norwegian we use a single apostrophe to indicate possession if the name ends in a s, like Jesus' someone mentioned above. Is this not used otherwise in English at all? I think it looks rather elegant :p

skhill

11-23-2011, 05:24 AM

Veronica, thanks for teaching your students these sorts of things. I used to work in our public community college, and I was appalled at the inability of most of the students to write a complete sentence. These days, one of my friends teaches English at a for-profit technical school; we can all tell when she's been grading papers from her foul mood. She says most of her students are functionally illiterate, despite having a GED or high school diploma.

Irulan

11-23-2011, 07:59 AM

Veronica

11-23-2011, 08:04 AM

The apostrophe is fine. I thought the problem was the preposition at the end of the sentence.

Veronica

jessmarimba

11-23-2011, 05:28 PM

The apostrophe is fine. I thought the problem was the preposition at the end of the sentence.

Veronica

Yep. "Where is it?" would be acceptable. "Where is it at?" just drives me up the wall. Totally unnecessary.

OakLeaf

12-16-2011, 06:28 AM

Reviving this thread, not without trepidation, to share this (http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/11961/the_english_language_aint_that_bad/) thought-provoking piece.

Ja Da Dee

12-16-2011, 12:24 PM

It looks like they need a "Bob the Angry Flower" poster

http://www.angryflower.com/aposter.html

smilingcat

12-16-2011, 12:51 PM

Reviving this thread, not without trepidation, to share this (http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/11961/the_english_language_aint_that_bad/) thought-provoking piece.

reminds me of William Safire and his painful nit picking of bad grammar.

I make no bones about it. I gave up on it long time ago. Like LPH, I really do not have a first language. My other language is Japanese and let me telll youuuu that the grammar is worldly different that it might as well be (been) an alien language. Even Chinese have some similarities to English but not Japanese. Tis why the Chinese are able to speak more correct American or British English whereas Japanese, well :o, not so much.

Spoken language is alive, vibrant and full of life. It should change with generations. How else can it express each generations unique view of the world? We had the rat pack, '50s generation had theirs, hippies, yippies, yuppies, X-gen, valley talk oh my gawd!!, grunge talk. Makes it more interesting. And now with texting, even spelling is going through some major transformation. It's amusing not bemused. ;)

OakLeaf

12-16-2011, 01:04 PM

... and just saw this one (best image I could find and I'm not going to type it over, sorry): :D

bmccasland

12-16-2011, 01:58 PM

... and just saw this one (best image I could find and I'm not going to type it over, sorry): :D

Those are great!
I should have posted a reply in the theme, but my brain isn't working so well, as it were. :rolleyes:

Crankin

12-16-2011, 02:45 PM

The misplaced apostrophes really bother me.
Enough said. It hurts my eyes.

Bike Chick

12-17-2011, 03:48 AM

I missed this thread earlier and want to thank you for starting it, Veronica. I have two "friends" on Facebook who are teachers and both of them are constantly butchering the English language with grammatical and spelling errors. They are teaching our children for goodness sake! I find it surprising.

malkin

12-17-2011, 05:06 AM

Five pages on an apostrophe thread and no one has mentioned Bob the Angry Flower?

You can google it. Some people think it is offensive.

ivorygorgon

12-17-2011, 05:14 AM

The misuse of "loose" and "lose," bugs the crap out of me. I can't help it, it just does.

Irulan

12-17-2011, 07:35 AM

Five pages on an apostrophe thread and no one has mentioned Bob the Angry Flower?

You can google it. Some people think it is offensive.

Wasn't that just posted? What could possibly be offensive about it? Did someone with a Grammar Impairment Syndrome get their feelings hurt?

snapdragen

12-17-2011, 07:38 AM

Wasn't that just posted? What could possibly be offensive about it? Did someone with a Grammar Impairment Syndrome get their feelings hurt?

Yup -- right up there ^

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showpost.php?p=616913&postcount=57

:D

Crankin

12-17-2011, 07:52 AM

That poster is hysterical. Really, I doubt anyone with G.I.S. would get their feelings hurt, because they can't recognize they are using the punctuation incorrectly.
Generally, people who do the apostrophe thing wrong also can't get homophones (their, there, they're), things like lose and loose, or spell words like definitely that it seems like no one can spell. For some it's laziness, but for a lot of the people I know who do this, it's a form of a learning disability. I bet if you asked, a lot of these people would say they are not good readers or writers.

Irulan

12-17-2011, 08:12 AM

LOL "definitely" is one I really have struggled with, and I am a decent speller. I forget the little rule I had to memorize.

Anyway, I posted this on my business page yesterday. Is it correct? I know it's partial sentence fragments. I was wondering about the use of the apostrophe.

Best way to end the week: the finicky machine doing it's jobs smoothly!!