Spinoff of cat thread: canned vs. dry food...?

[zoom-zoom]

I saw this touched-upon, a bit in the "to cat, or not to cat" thread. Give me your opinion/experiences re: dry vs canned food. We've always done dry, since it's cheaper and the conventional wisdom used to be that it's better for teeth, but recently have started feeding our nearly 18 year old female canned food to help with what appears to be urinary tract issues (crystals--she avoids peeing in the box, but still poops without incident. She was treated for a mild bladder infection, but the vet didn't think that was the cause of her inappropriate peeing. I think the vet was right, as it's been almost a week since she finished the antibiotics).

The boys want and LOVE the canned food when we let them finish whatever she doesn't eat and when they eat it seem to be far less prone to wandering off and puking on the bed, sofa, places where we step in the middle of the night with bare feet, etc.

So I'm thinking that maybe we should switch them all to mostly canned diet, since they shouldn't have to eat as much if they aren't barfing half of their food up (seriously, at least 2 of our 4 binge/purge with most meals. They're not good about chewing the dry food, so it's likely causing some digestion issues) and many experts say that a wet diet helps ward off urinary stone issues. We've already made a point to look for the dry foods with the highest protein content, avoiding stuff with corn in the first few ingredients (I don't like corn, why would my carnivorous cats?).

Thoughts...?

[Koronin]

We have dry food available at all times (free feed) and give wet food a few times per month. Ariel did get a urinary stone and is now on a prescription dry food (Royal Canin SO), which for the stones she's been great on. Unfortunately it has corn in it and she's allergic to corn, so we have to treat that occasionally (no water cat bath actually works for help her allergies). (She's also allergic to dust). The dry food we feed is Nature's Variety Instinct. It's a high quality food that you have to go to pet specialty type stores to get. PetsMart, Petco, grocery stores, ect will not sell it. We dry two hours every so often to buy/stock up on it and then keep it in air tight containers. Here's a link to their website if it's something you might be interested in:
http://www.naturesvariety.com/
We also get their wet food as all three of my cats actually like it. (I have one that won't eat most wet foods, but loves theirs.)

[Eden]

I've been totally sold on the ideas that cats are not meant to eat either carbs or veggies - that they are true carnivores, they don't need food that isn't meat and that dry kibble foods are not particularly good for them. Eating dry tends to leave them dehydrated and contrary to popular opinion for many of the last years it's actually worse for their teeth, rather than cleaning them...

My two eat only canned Ziwi Peak (no carbs or veggies of any sort) and I give them chicken jerky treats (dog sized "Breathies" - broken up a bit) once a day to really exercise their teeth. I'd do raw if I could get my male to tolerate it, but he's just puked every raw diet I've tried on him...

[zoom-zoom]

I should look at those meaty treats. I recall years ago finding some shredded sort of jerky treats for cats. I should see if I can find those, again.

Yeah, carbs + cats...it's not too surprising that there are so many overweight, diabetic cats. We're omnivores and don't do well on a corn-heavy, carb-heavy diet, either.

For those who have done raw diets, are you truly feeding your cats raw meat or are you cooking it in some capacity? Are there other foods you feed the cats or things you give them to ensure that they're getting all the necessary nutrients?

[Biciclista]

my cats eat raw meat. No, it's not cooked (except for the occasional time that i forget to defrost it and then i microwave it and oh yuck, it got too hot and cooked a little)
I wish you could come pet my cats and see how nice their fur is. i give them each the equivalent of a tablespoon of dry cat food a day. it's a treat, they still love it.

[Eden]

For those who have done raw diets, are you truly feeding your cats raw meat or are you cooking it in some capacity? Are there other foods you feed the cats or things you give them to ensure that they're getting all the necessary nutrients?

When trying to switch my kitty I read up a lot - it does sound a little challenging to do a "do it yourself" raw diet and be sure to get in all the nutrients - but there are supplements to add. The main thing to remember does seem to be that in the wild they'd be eating the whole critter - so it's actually very important to get the right mix of bones and organs into the food. I only tried pre-made raw foods.....

And they were totally raw. Apparently kitties are not as susceptible to the buggies that humans are, because they have a different environment in their guts and a much faster transit time.... Us humans need to take care when handling their food, but they are good with it. I've also read (don't know if it is true or not) that cooking destroys some of the enzymes/nutrients in the food, so if it is cooked it is necessary to add things back in the form of supplements.

[Biciclista]

yes, Eden, that's right, cooking (and freezing for that matter) destroys some of the good stuff, but that's why you add to the mix, yes.

PS Since I use human grade meat for the cats, I handle it like I handle food I am going to eat. My husband says "I always know when you made cat food because the kitchen is always much cleaner when you are done."

When I first started feeding the cats raw food, they left the bits of bone in their dishes. I was very disturbed by this (because they need bones, too!) eventually they got used to it and now they eat it all.

[zoom-zoom]

Very interesting--that makes sense that they'd need the bone, too. I take it you have to make sure that the bone is ground or something to avoid them eating splinters...?

[Biciclista]

I grind the chicken in a Maverick grinder -- coarse grind (bones and all) I also leave chunks of breast meat, gizzards and whole hearts for them to chew on.

[zoom-zoom]

Our Kitchenaid mixer has the meat grinding attachment, but I suspect it couldn't handle bones.

[Biciclista]

Uh, Kitchenaid mixers can't handle bones. Ask me how I know? Their customer service was great, they replaced one mixer. When my husband tried to make sausage and the gears started groaning (no bones) he actually got rid of the thing. Too bad, it had been a life time dream for him to own one.

[zoom-zoom]

Uh, Kitchenaid mixers can't handle bones. Ask me how I know? Their customer service was great, they replaced one mixer. When my husband tried to make sausage and the gears started groaning (no bones) he actually got rid of the thing. Too bad, it had been a life time dream for him to own one.

That's kind of what I suspected. Ours (an 11+ year old Heavy Duty mixer, which isn't very heavy duty compared to their more recent models) sometimes labors with cookie dough.

[Titania]

Both of my cats are FIV positive, so we do everything we can to keep their teeth in good shape to reduce the risk of systemic infection. Our cats do get wet food as an occassional treat, but dry food is 99% of their diet.

[indysteel]

Titania, I've read a lot that refutes the idea that dry food promotes oral health. Having used dry food for years, it has done nothing to obviate the need for regular professional cleanings and care. My cats swallow their dry food whole as it is, so I'm not sure what benefit it could provide. In the end, it just seems that quality wet food provides better nutrition and moisture, which ultimately promotes better immunity.

[Aggie_Ama]

I was told dry food is filled with tons of empty calories, cats tend to overeat because they don't get satisfied. My vet also told me they are not big water drinkers at all so they are usually dehydrated. Tortilla is not a big canned food cat, she turns her nose up at it. I may have to put her back on it though because she is overweight and my vet felt canned food would help this issue.

[Norse]

Cats are indeed carnivores - they were not meant to eat grains and dry food contributed to our previously overweight cat being, overweight. They are on a raw food diet and thriving. I have been using the same Northern Tools meat grinder for over two years now with no problems. After much research, this is the recipe I chose to follow and the supplement used: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/alnutrin_for_meat.html. I also add some fish oil to the mix. Our vet was not thrilled when we first told her of the switch to raw food, but about one year later she said, "I have to admit, they really seem to be doing well." :)

[indysteel]

I was told dry food is filled with tons of empty calories, cats tend to overeat because they don't get satisfied. My vet also told me they are not big water drinkers at all so they are usually dehydrated. Tortilla is not a big canned food cat, she turns her nose up at it. I may have to put her back on it though because she is overweight and my vet felt canned food would help this issue.

You might try a dry food like Innova that is high in protein. It won't solve the dehydration problem, but it might help with weight. Keep in mind that you have to be discerning when it comes to canned food, too. Some of it is just as carb laden as dry.

[Titania]

Titania, I've read a lot that refutes the idea that dry food promotes oral health. Having used dry food for years, it has done nothing to obviate the need for regular professional cleanings and care. My cats swallow their dry food whole as it is, so I'm not sure what benefit it could provide. In the end, it just seems that quality wet food provides better nutrition and moisture, which ultimately promotes better immunity.

I'll have to do some digging on this...thanks. One of my cats is on a prescription urinary diet (Royal Canin S/O IIRC), and both eat the same thing. I've done BARF diets before when I had a dog...didn't think about doing it with a cat. Vet said to put Elliott on the prescription diet, so I did.

[indysteel]

I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you; I think it's wonderful you're caring for two FIV positive cats. If they have crystal issues, all the more reason to use a canned food. Better hydration promotes a less concentrated urine, which is helpful for kitties with urinary tract issues. Royal Canin makes a canned s/o formula. You might talk to your vet about it. But be aware that vets sometimes aren't as informed as you might think when it comes to nutrition.

[Koronin]

I was told dry food is filled with tons of empty calories, cats tend to overeat because they don't get satisfied. My vet also told me they are not big water drinkers at all so they are usually dehydrated. Tortilla is not a big canned food cat, she turns her nose up at it. I may have to put her back on it though because she is overweight and my vet felt canned food would help this issue.

That is true of store bought cat foods. If you get the high quality foods they are not full of fillers. You need to get brands like Innova and Nature's Variety that you need pet specialty stores for.

[Koronin]

Tatiana, Royal Canin is the better of the prescription diets. The SO is what our one cat is on also. You can try the wet food of the SO, but my cats won't touch it. We basically feed them Nature's Variety wet food, and sometimes Innova (they also won't eat EVO) and sometime Merrick. The Innova I can get from my vet the rest we have to drive to Raleigh to get.

As for the water, with some cats if you get one of the water fountains it will prompt some cats to drink more water, otherwise just find a high quality wet food and add that to their diet along with the dry food.

[indysteel]

That is true of store bought cat foods. If you get the high quality foods they are not full of fillers. You need to get brands like Innova and Nature's Variety that you need pet specialty stores for.

It's actually not quite that straightforward. Some premium foods (or what some would call premium) actually have a high ratio of carbs. Plus, it varies from flavor to flavor, even within a certain brand.

Some of the cheaper varieties of food are not as bad as you might assume, at least in terms of protein content. It is true that they contain a lesser quality of protein, but it's arguably still better than a high carb diet, dry or wet. My Henry cat can't stand most of the premium, high protein foods, but likes certain varieties of the cheaper stuff. So, that's our compromise. I'm mostly concerned with his fluid intake at this point, but his current diet is not my ideal choice.

Most of what I learned about cat food, I learned from this (http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FEEDING%20YOUR%20CAT%208-10%20Long%202-12-10.pdf). I am not a vet, however, and cannot attest to how accurate it is. It certainly made sense to me. There's a link within the article in the discussion about how to read a pet food label that I also found most helpful--in terms of actually selecting different foods to try.

Of course, there are lots of different things to look for in a food--beyond just protein content. I don't want to oversimplify it. For me, however, it was a place to start in terms of making sense of all the different elements to look for.

[Titania]

I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you; I think it's wonderful you're caring for two FIV positive cats. If they have crystal issues, all the more reason to use a canned food. Better hydration promotes a less concentrated urine, which is helpful for kitties with urinary tract issues. Royal Canin makes a canned s/o formula. You might talk to your vet about it. But be aware that vets sometimes aren't as informed as you might think when it comes to nutrition.

Only one of my cats (Elliott) has urinary tract issues. Not only does he have crystals, but he's had bladder stones removed previously, and he has kidney stones (seen on ultrasound). Kidney stones in cats can't be operated on...their kidneys are just too small. At this point, the stones are probably the least of Elliott's worries. He's been having almost fainting-like spells for about a year that would come and go. The vet was stumped until we had him in recently to get his teeth cleaned and almost lost him on the table. His "fainting" spells are from a 3rd level AV block. His atria don't talk to his ventricles. My boy is living on borrowed time, for sure.

The canned Royal Canin S/O is what we give them for treats. With two cats, it's not really practical to feed different diets (they both are pickers not gulpers), so Teddy gets the prescription food, as well. I think I'll start offering wet food as the staple and maybe the dry as a treat...especially since I just ordered a new 16 lb bag of it. :p

Thanks again for the info...I've got lots more to read, but I've read enough to make me think.

[azfiddle]

I used to give our cats mainly dry food. Sometime after my son got a dog, I felt like they were being neglected and started supplementing their food with canned food.

The last few months, our older cat Smudgie, now 14, lost a lot of weight. She does not seem to be able to hold down the dry food anymore. Shortly afterward, she got some kind of infection in her face, but antibiotics seemed to have solved that.

My son works at Petsmart and I don't remember the brand he was bringing home. We were feeding her just Friskies, but he replaced it with some of the Royal Canin. She seems to gaining back a little weight but seems to be hungry all the time.

Sadly, the other cat, which my daughter left with us when she went to England, disappeared about a week ago :(

[indysteel]

I used to give our cats mainly dry food. Sometime after my son got a dog, I felt like they were being neglected and started supplementing their food with canned food.

The last few months, our older cat Smudgie, now 14, lost a lot of weight. She does not seem to be able to hold down the dry food anymore. Shortly afterward, she got some kind of infection in her face, but antibiotics seemed to have solved that.

My son works at Petsmart and I don't remember the brand he was bringing home. We were feeding her just Friskies, but he replaced it with some of the Royal Canin. She seems to gaining back a little weight but seems to be hungry all the time.

Sadly, the other cat, which my daughter left with us when she went to England, disappeared about a week ago :(

Have you had her thyroid tested?

[azfiddle]

No... the vet suggested there might be a thyroid or kidney problem... we have hesitated based on the expense of the tests for now.

[indysteel]

No... the vet suggested there might be a thyroid or kidney problem... we have hesitated based on the expense of the tests for now.

I understand. My vet bills over the last couple of years have been ridiculously high, and the outcome for Sophie--whom we treated for thyroid disease--wasn't overly positive in the end. She was 14 at the time, too. I don't begrudge the money; it's just part of the bigger issue of how much to intervene in a older animal's health. Thyroid disease, in particular, is tricky in my opinion. Yes, it can be managed in a number of ways, but it also sometimes causes or unmasks other issues.

In any event, I hope your kitty starts to feel better soon, and that the other one returns home.

[azfiddle]

She definitely feels better- the infection was cleared up and she is a little more active (though definitely at a slower, senior pace. I am very sad about the other cat- she is a gorgeous and friendly blue point Siamese, who didn't know if she was a cat, a dog or a person- was on really good terms with the dog.

[Marquise]

My cat eats mostly raw chicken and turkey, with a little dry food on the side. He adores any raw meat, fish, or poultry. The dry food is from a local pet food store that posts a lot of information on how the products they sell compare with and are superior to grocery store and prescription brands nutrient-wise. They recommended a food appropriate for my cat given that he has had surgery to remove stones from his bladder but always advise to make sure he gets plenty of water. I toyed with making raw food for him following recipes with essential supplements/nutrients but I knew I wasn't up for it for the long haul.

I got a fountain for him about two months ago and he drinks a lot more water, roughly double what he used to judging by the litter box and how frequently the fountain needs to be topped off. He used to frequently "ask" to have the tap in the bathtub turned on to trickle so he could drink but now that he has the fountain he ignores the tub.

[indysteel]

My adult male totally ignored the water fountain we bought for him. The only thing he likes to drink from is the four-cup measuring cup we use to make coffee. We finally got him his own. He especially likes for me to hold it from him. Yes, he's spoiled, but I'd stand on my head each day if it got him to drink more.

[Kiwi Stoker]

I once meet an Australian vet of a book called "Raw Meaty Bones". He advocated a raw meat diet for cats and dogs after seeing the rotting and diseased teeth and mouths of pet food feed animals.

Interesting, a lot of vets (unlike doctors) get kick backs from pet food companies. And of course pet food companies are very protective of their brands. This vet was actually KICKED out of the OZ vet society because of his stance, and pet food companies tried to undermine his findings and bad mouth his name.

It was interesting when he came on book tour here in NZ that after the media how the pet food companies came out swinging.

Cats and dogs are supposed to chew on uncooked bones to clean their teeth properly. Cooking bones makes them brittle and therefore prone to splinter.

The most lasting thing this vet said and rang so true was about a certain pet food company supplying cat milk to the tigers at a zoo. He said where on earth would a tiger go and drink milk from in Africa? "Excuse me Mrs Wildebeast, but can I have some of your milk?".

[trista]

I recently had a cat die of kidney disease, and maybe that could have been prevented by feeding him canned food.... I'll never know, but I do wish I'd have fed him canned.

My current cat I got when he was an adult, and I don't know what he was fed before, but I'm sure it was dry food because he is now diabetic. I have to give him insulin injections twice a day.

We now feed him only canned. My only problem with canned is his poop stinks really bad, and I mean seriously, heinous. Would a different food help that? He has to have potassium supplements b/c of the diabetes though, so I don't know if that is what makes his poop stink.

[Marquise]

My adult male totally ignored the water fountain we bought for him. The only thing he likes to drink from is the four-cup measuring cup we use to make coffee. We finally got him his own. He especially likes for me to hold it from him. Yes, he's spoiled, but I'd stand on my head each day if it got him to drink more.
Love this. Aren't cats crazy and great? Mine likes to drink from our glasses (water or milk). When I get milk out of the refrigerator for dinner, he often comes to the kitchen expecting a taste. So far he doesn't require a special glass or cup. Sometimes we let him try to get his head in when the liquid is too low in the glass for him to reach - just for our amusement.

[zoom-zoom]

Love this. Aren't cats crazy and great? Mine likes to drink from our glasses (water or milk). When I get milk out of the refrigerator for dinner, he often comes to the kitchen expecting a taste. So far he doesn't require a special glass or cup. Sometimes we let him try to get his head in when the liquid is too low in the glass for him to reach - just for our amusement.

We have one who will dip his paw in a glass, then lick his paw, if he can't reach a liquid with his mouth. He's a pretty smart one.

[Possegal]

I bought my two the very expensive water fountain. I spent 6 yrs giving fluids to a CRF cat and so I want to be sure these guys stay hydrated. So far, they seem to be ignoring it. I bet if it was free, they would be loving it.

I was walking through Petsmart over the weekend with three cases of canned food for my cats and some guy goes by me, with cat food in his cart, and just says - you treat your cats way too well. I'm not sure if he was joking or making a serious statement. But my cats love their food and I'm not going to try something new.

[Eden]

My boy had a brush with FUS - he did not require surgery thankfully but was quite sick and was put on a prescription diet for a while, which is what prompted me to look very carefully at what I was feeding my cats (well, that and the asian pet food poison scare...).

I decided the stuff my vet had me giving him was essentially acidified garbage... I looked at the ingredients it had all of the nasty byproducts, glutens and carbs that probably caused his problem in the first place with acidifiers thrown in to counter act it all.... So I did lot of research, a lot of searching and decided, against the advice of the vet to take him off of the prescription diet.

I switched my two to a 100% meat based canned diet and have had no problems at all since then (and yes they both now have beautiful, very soft, very shiny coats and no bad breath - which was not true on the prescription diet...). I tried a water fountain, but both mine totally ignore it - well at least they didn't drink from it..... The girl used to get big kicks out of taking it apart and pulling the charcoal filter out to play with.... The boy gets a splash of extra water in his food at each meal to force him to get a bit of extra hydration.

[Becky]

It took a few weeks, but our two cats and the dog eventually came around to the water fountain.

Our male cat is on prescription food for urinary issues, and my opinion of it is similar to Eden's: it's expensive junk food. That said, I haven't quite worked up the nerve to switch his food, nor would I know what to switch him to. Any suggestions for reading material on this specific topic?

[indysteel]

It took a few weeks, but our two cats and the dog eventually came around to the water fountain.

Our male cat is on prescription food for urinary issues, and my opinion of it is similar to Eden's: it's expensive junk food. That said, I haven't quite worked up the nerve to switch his food, nor would I know what to switch him to. Any suggestions for reading material on this specific topic?

What food is he on and for what specific condition? The link (http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FEEDING%20YOUR%20CAT%208-10%20Long%202-12-10.pdf) I provided earlier may have some information about how to change his diet for the better with his medical issues in mind.

[bmccasland]

I learned a lot about cat food from FelineDiabetes.com
http://www.felinediabetes.com/diet.htm
On the above page is a link to Janet & Binky food charts. Although USA based, they have some international information. I swear my kitty's French Friskies pouch food is different from what I buy here (they only get it when I see my French friend or from her at Christmas).

[indysteel]

I learned a lot about cat food from FelineDiabetes.com
http://www.felinediabetes.com/diet.htm
On the above page is a link to Janet & Binky food charts. Although USA based, they have some international information. I swear my kitty's French Friskies pouch food is different from what I buy here (they only get it when I see my French friend or from her at Christmas).

Those charts--one of which is linked to in the link I provided--are awesome. I keep a print out in the car so that I have it when I go pet food shopping.

[Becky]

What food is he on and for what specific condition? The link (http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FEEDING%20YOUR%20CAT%208-10%20Long%202-12-10.pdf) I provided earlier may have some information about how to change his diet for the better with his medical issues in mind.

Hills Prescription Diet C/D for chronic urinary tract issues. I don't recall what his original urinalysis showed. I need to find it, and go from there.

The C/D does seem to help most of his "outside the box" moments, but I'm not thrilled with the ingredients list.

I will definitely look at those links- thanks!

[Biciclista]

My only problem with canned is his poop stinks really bad, and I mean seriously, heinous. Would a different food help that? He has to have potassium supplements b/c of the diabetes though, so I don't know if that is what makes his poop stink.

Cats fed raw meat don't have stinky feces

[indysteel]

Trista,

I've fed my cats both wet and dry food and neither has caused foul smelling poo. The only cat I've had with that problem had a variety of health issues, including IBS and thyroid disease. I would make sure nothing else was going on in your cat's gut or endocrine system before assuming it was just a matter of diet.

[Koronin]

Becky, you could also look at the Royal Canin prescription foods. When Ariel had her stones we looked at both Science Diet (Hills) and Royal Canin and choose to go with Royal Canin because the ingredient are a bit better. Not great, but better than Science Diet. Of course our vet had to special order the food since the office carried Science Diet. However my vet actually uses Royal Canin prescription over Science Diet for her cats as well. Our new vet (after moving across the state) carries Royal Canin prescription and Innova in her office.

[trista]

Cats fed raw meat don't have stinky feces

Yes, I think his food is the problem. There was no stink till we switched to dry from canned. He's been recently tested for everything under the sun when he was super sick from untreated diabetes and he's otherwise healthy. And I admit to getting the cheap cans, only because I didn't know better. I keep the Janet & Binky food charts in my purse to help me decide on low-carb foods, but I don't think the ones I'm choosing are good for his intestines (he seems to have a sensitive gut).

I don't have the time or energy for a raw-meat diet though, so I'm trying some different canned & frozen brands to see if a change will help. Any favorite brands? I am trial-ing Nature's Variety, Evo and ZiwiPeak so far and am open to suggestions.

[indysteel]

Just a thought, Trista. You might try a supplement that Purina makes called FortiFlora. It's basically a probiotic. My cats use it after they' e been treated with antibiotics and it helps get their guts back to normal. Ask your vet for it. They may also sell it at Petsmart.

[trista]

Good idea Indy, I will try that

[Atlas]

Frisbee gets Wellness or Newman's Own Organic canned food and he always has a bowl of Wellness kibble to snack on. I was just looking at the Janet and Binky chart (which I remember reading when we first adopted Fris) and was surprised that Wellness wasn't as high in protein as I thought it was. Still good grain-free food, but I figured it'd be higher. I get Wellness because it's available where I work so I can use my discount.

[bmccasland]

Turns out Chloe kitten has a mild case of pneumonia. But the x-ray also showed that she was gassy and FOS (full of s**t). Vet says she needs more fiber in her diet. Because Calypso seems to be sensitive to chicken, both have been getting Duck & Green Pea. I have a 30-day supply of FortiFlora (pro-biotics) to add to her food which should help in the short term, but I need to find a long term solution.

I really don't intend to "cook" for the kitties, so am looking for a commercially supplied food.

[Brandi]

My one cat Bo was starting to have a weight problem. I was worried too cause he has a bum leg from when he was hit (or kicked) when he was little and we found him. So he has to stay lean in order to keep his leg from bugging him. About 2 years ago I started feeding him the light chicken soup for the soul food (high meat content) and finally in the past year he has dropped down to a better weight. Also helps that the neighbors who used to live next door are not there anymore. They used to feed their cat outside and it was friskies. My cat thought he died and gone to kitty crack heaven! He would go down and finish a whole bowl of that junk every day! I was happy when they left because of that! He gained like 4 pounds when they moved in! I do the Soul food becuase it is made in the US and my vet researched it for me. It has been a good food for them. I also give tbl. of wet every night.

[indysteel]

Too funny. On another of the cycling forums I frequent, the subject of dry versus canned came up. I just sent a lengthy PM to someone from that forum about the subject and shared some of the things that came up in this thread. I'm spreading the word ladies, spreading the word! My cats would be proud. :p