Women in Sci-Fi and Fantasy/Game of Thrones

[Irulan]

{may contain spoilers}
I've been working my way through Game of Thrones, and finally am slogging my way through vol 5 Dances with Dragons. I read a section last night that made me uncomfortable in a subtle way and was discussing it with a friend who had commented that she didn't like how women overall were presented in the series, and had quit after #3.

She then pointed me to this analysis,

George RR Martin is Creepy.... (http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/26/enter-ye-myne-mystic-world-of-gayng-raype-what-the-r-stands-for-in-george-r-r-martin/)
Which I am pretty much inclined to agree with. This blog entry brings to light the unspoken that was making me uncomfortable. Scroll down to the female character score card if you want to skip some snarky but spot-on analysis. Imsho.


What really got to me was a scene presented as a rape, then it turns out that it's Asha's "lover" threatening her with a knife, tearing her clothes off, roughing her up and raping her, but since he's the lover, it's really just rough sex that turns passionate, and not real rape. The fact that this man doing the violence is her lover is almost an endnote to the whole thing. Please insert sarcasm here.

I'm not sure that many female authors do any better. From female authors we get wonder women like Ayla ( Earth's Children**. Jeam M Auel) or Phedre` Delauney (Kushiel's Avatar etc, Jaqueline Carey). These authors present strong female characters who do a lot of cool things, but the "amazingness" of these women is hard to take seriously.

I really like the balanced female and male characters in much of Juliet Marillier's book (Sevenwaters, Breidie Chronicles etc) I think she's one of the few fantasy authors who gives equal respect to male and females. Still, in the world of fantasy stories, it's really hard to escape stereotypes of one sort or another.

That blog just kind of blew my mind, and I thought I'd share it here.
There's another blog entry ( different blog) I read that likened Jondalar and Ayla to Ken and Barbie that was pretty funny. I did like that series, for entertainment, aside from the last one which was truly terrible.



** never mind the last one, it was beyond horrible.

[lph]

Very good blog. Good points!

Actually the wonder women fantasy characters are the ones I find the most annoying. They are just unbearably cool and macho and magical and hard-hitting, and I can just hear the author thinking "ok, that'll shut the girls up and keep them happy". Fine when I was 13 and reading Anne McCaffrey, not so fine now. These days I'm happier with the books that don't make a huge deal out of which gender the character is, just write well and bring me in.

I tend a bit more to science fiction type fantasy, but without considering gender, some of my better fantasy reads in recent years have been Robin Hobbs' books, though they're running on a bit now, and The Painted Man.

And His Dark Materials by Pullman. It's why our brave young cat is called Lyra.

[OakLeaf]

I'm a big fan of Nancy Kress, and my guilty pleasure is CJ Cherryh. Mercedes Lackey is an even guiltier pleasure, but at least her more recent books are free of that kind of BS. You're right, it got old a long time ago, and it was never OK.

+1 on His Dark Materials. The only reason I haven't re-read that yet is that I've promised myself I'd re-read Paradise Lost first, and that's what's holding me up. :rolleyes:

[KnottedYet]

Terry Pratchett does a good job with female characters.

[lph]

The only reason I haven't re-read that yet is that I've promised myself I'd re-read Paradise Lost first, and that's what's holding me up. :rolleyes:

You must be kidding. :eek: You have to read like sixteen lines to get to a verb!

I took Paradise Lost along when I hiked the Pyrenees (the HR10, if anyone's interested) to have something small to read that would take a while. It was so impenetrable it made my head spin. Never got through half.

But I did get some inspired letters home out of it ;) "Here on the trail, whereon I did travel, with dark birds around, angels of the sky, swirling tightly, blah-blah-blah" you get the picture :D

[Veronica]

I have quite enjoyed the series.

The novels take place in "medieval" times. Let's see... in medieval times women were bought and sold at the convenience of the men in their lives. Racism was rampant. Think about the real world pre-Columbus. Anyone different from you was savage and heathen and it wasn't just Europeans who felt that way. The Japanese refused to allow Europeans to land on their islands for like 200 years. That's essentially the kind of world he is creating. To have equity between the sexes and races would not work in his world. And women were pretty much married off as soon as they started menstruating.

Veronica

[NbyNW]

Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortality series has always been one of my favorites in terms of how male and female characters are portrayed.

They're very human, even as they take on the jobs of deities like the three Fates, Death, and I can't remember who else was in it. I read it a long time ago and waiting for it to come out as an e-book because it keeps coming up in conversation this past year ...

[Irulan]

...medieval times... there is that argument ( and that it's fiction, fantasy etc) but does medieval have to mean that all women are chattel, or victims, young girls being abused, with threats of rape and violence as the only means of "controlling" them? Why not present at least one example of a loving respectful relationship? There were inklings of that but Martin likes to kill his characters off. Medieval - Elanor of Aquitane comes to mind as a real person who may have technically been chattel but had power in her own right without being evil or a warrior.

Ah well, author's perogotive. But a society that's been around for 4000 years to have not progressed beyond a wheel and a trebuchet?
One friend of mine likened GOT to LOTR without the magic. At least in LOTR the few women characters didn't get smacked around

I love everything that CJ Cherryh has done. Anyone ever read Joan Vinge? The Snow Queen etc? Thanks for the other author suggestions.

[lph]

Yes, I don't remember the Snow Queen, but I remember liking it.

[Veronica]

It's all about power, not about love or respect.

I have enjoyed "watching" some of the characters change and deal with their moral dilemmas - Jamie and the Imp in particular. Dany also has issues with trying to change the society which she now controls.

I was thinking about that "rape" scene you referenced. I always figured that particular clan was kind of modeled on the Vikings and being "conquered" was part of their mating ritual - prove you're strong enough to have me, sort of thing. Of course that character was married off, but wasn't even present at her wedding. :rolleyes:

Veronica

[Irulan]

V- I agree that some of the character development is interesting. After 4 1/2 books the "power imbalances"'are really wearing on me.

[lph]

Anyone else enjoy Neil Gaiman? I'm a big fan, started with the Sandman graphic novels, but I like his regular novels a lot more. Especially the short stories. And "American Gods" - funnily enough didn't like it at the first reading, slogged through one more time and now it's really grown on me.

Speaking of books I picked up Victoria Hislops "The Island", because we're going to Crete next week. It's set there, and the cover was full of praise and prizes. Gawd, what an awful book. Kept reading for a while out of a vague feeling of curiosity, but the writing is just so puffed-up and and ...trite. Reminds me of Adrian Moles "lo, the majestic vales of Scotland". You're told exactly what every character feels at every point.

My apologies to anyone who may love it...

eta:
:D found the following review, which was priceless:

"You must pay the rent!" the evil villain roared, twirling his diabolical mustache. He was her landlord, and he was an impatient man.

"But I can't pay the rent!" swooned the beautiful, hapless heroine. She was his tenant. Her breathtaking beauty was matched only by her saintliness. (...)

If this is your idea of a well-written story then you may very well like this book, which read more or less this way for 474 pages."

[OakLeaf]

Another Gaiman fan here, though I've only read a few of his. I really liked American Gods and the sequel Anansi Boys, and I don't know if I've ever laughed out loud at any book more than his collaboration with Pratchett, Good Omens.

Re being mediaeval, I call BS. It's fantasy. That means he can write gender roles and power relationships however he wants. I haven't read any Martin, but I've read way too much fantasy with drawn-out rape scenes obviously intended to titillate, even when the female characters eventually get their revenge.

On Paradise Lost ... Yeah. But I feel like Pullman's work deserves to be fully appreciated, and that means being familiar with his inspiration. All I remember from reading Milton in college is dreaming in iambic pentameter. :eek:

[Crankin]

Anyone else here not like sci-fi or fantasy?
I really hate it, and I am an avid reader. It was difficult for me when I was teaching, because so many of the popular YA books were in these genres. I just can't get into all of the "pretend." If I 'm not reading realistic fiction, then it's historical fiction or non-fiction.

[tulip]

Crankin, this thread is all about a topic that doesn't pertain to me, either. But what the heck, I'm glad y'all are having a good time. Carry on, I say!

[grey]

I read the first three of Martin's books when I was down with my back six years ago. Not uplifting material to someone when they cannot walk! Every time I thought something was going right, that one character had a chance at a better life, it was crushed in the most horrible manner imaginable. As a result, I found the books depressing, even if interesting and well wrtten.

I like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. He died before he could finish it but found Brian Sanderson to finish the books, spent his last days going over plots with his wife so fans would have closure. His books have powerful men and women in them, strong women with normal character flaws, same with men. I honestly think Jordan had a gift with developing characters - believable characters, and all memorable.

Happy to check out some of the other books mentioned in this thread. I love fantasy, am happy to escape life for a few chapters! My 15 year old niece is the same, we trade books back and forth (I warned her away from George Martin for now). Anybody have more suggestions?

[Catrin]

I love fantasy, science fiction is good but I prefer a well written fantasy series. Pratchett is wonderful, CJ Cherryh rocks. I used to like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series until it just went on too long...I will likely try it again at some point and perhaps start at the beginning. Mercedes Lackey is indeed a very guilty pleasure, and indeed I am reading some of her works from the 80s that I hadn't read before.

I've read most of Game of Thrones and have enjoyed it, but yeah, I wouldn't give his books to a 15 year old. I really don't understand why they call him the "American Tolkien" while I have enjoyed what I've read so far I disagree.

I like "speculative fiction", whatever they are calling that genre these days. It is still fantasy (what if WW2 had been won by the other side sort of thing). I especially like Judith Tarr and Harry Turtledove, though I haven't read either of them for some time. Stephen Hunt has also done some good writing, his books are a mixture of alternative history, steampunk and sorcery.

[Veronica]

Catrin you ought to check out the Leviathian series by Scott Westerfield then. It's aimed at young adults and a few of my students have read it. I've really enjoyed it and actually pre ordered the last book, something I never do. :p

Veronica

[Irulan]

I really don't understand why they call him the "American Tolkien" while I have enjoyed what I've read so far I disagree.

I had this discussion with a friend of mine, who is a huge proponent of respecting women as partners and teaches such with his personal work. CB said, "It's like Tolkien without the magic" and my response was, " At least the few women in LOTR didn't get smacked around all the time". Funny, he hadn't considered it in that light before.

[lph]

I'm curious if there's anyone else here who doesn't care much for Tolkien. I mean - he was a visionary, he created a wonderful, incredibly detailed world and history and people and language and all, but the writing to me is boring, flat and very dated. (Besides there being almost no women in it at all.) When people rave about LOTR I tend to say I'd love it if only he'd found a better writer ;) I wonder if it's because I read a lot of other fantasy before reading Tolkine, so by the time I got to reading "the original", as it were, it sounded like a cliche.

My earliest and strongest fantasy reading experience was the Narnia books. I still love them :)

Dan Simmons' Hyperion books are also very good. But very different, a bit unsettling in their horror approach.

Pardon me for semi-hijacking the thread away from women in fantasy. I just don't get to talk about my favourite genre very much!

[Irulan]

I'm curious if there's anyone else here who doesn't care much for Tolkien. I mean - he was a visionary, he created a wonderful, incredibly detailed world and history and people and language and all, but the writing to me is boring, flat and very dated. (Besides there being almost no women in it at all.) When people rave about LOTR I tend to say I'd love it if only he'd found a better writer ;) I wonder if it's because I read a lot of other fantasy before reading Tolkine, so by the time I got to reading "the original", as it were, it sounded like a cliche.

My earliest and strongest fantasy reading experience was the Narnia books. I still love them :)

Dan Simmons' Hyperion books are also very good. But very different, a bit unsettling in their horror approach.

Pardon me for semi-hijacking the thread away from women in fantasy. I just don't get to talk about my favourite genre very much!


I agree with you about Tolkien being dated, but as a great intro to Fantasy for young adults, it's awesome. And as the originator of this thread, author suggestions and comments are welcome. Anyone else on Goodreads, btw?

[Cataboo]

I read the first three of Martin's books when I was down with my back six years ago. Not uplifting material to someone when they cannot walk! Every time I thought something was going right, that one character had a chance at a better life, it was crushed in the most horrible manner imaginable. As a result, I found the books depressing, even if interesting and well wrtten.

i haven't read more than a few chapters of the first book yet, but from your description it sounds a lot like Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the unbeliever... Also a rape in one of those books, but the main character, who was so filled with self loathing to begin with, continued to loath himself even more. There were other strong female characters in the books from what I remember.

And from the first few chapters of Martin's book - I'm not sure I see a resemblence to Tolkein.

For old sci-fi, I somewhat expect odd treatment of women - a lot of the older sci fi authors sexed up their stories so that they could sell them to playboy, because well... it paid. The Catteni or Freedom series by Anne McCaffrey grew out of a short story (The Thorns of Barevi) that she wrote as an attempt for the erotica market. It does have a "forced rape" that ends up being enjoyed in the original short story, I can't remember if she kept that in the book series that she eventually wrote.

Anyone read any James H. Schmitz books? He was a writer in the 40s/50's that tended to have strong female heroines in the era of space operas. For the time period & compared to most others they were well done.

[Cataboo]

I'm curious if there's anyone else here who doesn't care much for Tolkien. I mean - he was a visionary, he created a wonderful, incredibly detailed world and history and people and language and all, but the writing to me is boring, flat and very dated. (Besides there being almost no women in it at all.) When people rave about LOTR I tend to say I'd love it if only he'd found a better writer ;) I wonder if it's because I read a lot of other fantasy before reading Tolkine, so by the time I got to reading "the original", as it were, it sounded like a cliche.

My earliest and strongest fantasy reading experience was the Narnia books. I still love them :)

Dan Simmons' Hyperion books are also very good. But very different, a bit unsettling in their horror approach.

Pardon me for semi-hijacking the thread away from women in fantasy. I just don't get to talk about my favourite genre very much!

I loved the Chronicles of Narnia. I really liked the Hobbit... Lord of the Rings, I liked... but I admit to finding some of the battle scenes tedious.

[Catrin]

I agree with you about Tolkien being dated, but as a great intro to Fantasy for young adults, it's awesome. And as the originator of this thread, author suggestions and comments are welcome. Anyone else on Goodreads, btw?

I guess it is just personal regarding Tolkien, he is my favorite in the entire genre, bar none. Recently found a collection of his unfinished short stories and found them delightful :)

It is great to read about other suggested authors and series, there is a lot out there. I will carefully avoid mentioning my love of mysteries outside of just mentioning it :)

[OakLeaf]

I can't speak of Tolkien with any semblance of objectivity, because the Lord of the Rings was what I had at a very vulnerable and troubled time in my life. That said, as a lover of language, his creation of languages remains amazing to me - even though I still find it odd that he had the Rohirrim speak Anglo-Saxon rather than creating a language for them too. Apparently they were the "hook" that tied his academic work (which, as you probably know, he was a renowned scholar as well) to his own inner fantasy life. :)



But nobody's mentioned Ursula LeGuin yet??? Probably the first writer to bring feminism into the mainstream of FSF? (Okay, I totally had not heard of The Wild Girls before I just now checked out her website, and it's on my to-read list now...)

[lph]

I love Ursula leGuin! I was just going to shut up a little :D Great writing.

[Crankin]

OK, just as I thought...
I'm weird in my reading tastes.

[Catrin]

OK, just as I thought...
I'm weird in my reading tastes.

I doubt that, we are just an eclectic group of women with definate reading tastes - regardless of which genre we prefer :cool:

[Cataboo]

OK, just as I thought...
I'm weird in my reading tastes.

Prob not. I just think most people who dislike scifi/fantasy didn't open this thread based on the title. It's kinda like opening the paddling pics thread to post... "is it just me, or am I the only one who doesn't care for paddling?"

[Titania]

I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy both. Both genres definitely have their fair share of crap, though.

I don't find George R.R. Martin's treatment of women disturbing, personally. There are several strong female characters, and I think the tone fits the medieval setting. Let's face it, women weren't worth anything in the eyes of men back in those days. To have a medieval setting and have some sort of egalitarian social structure would seem fairly odd to me.

If you're looking for a fantastic author who is also a devoted feminist, look no further than Sherri S. Tepper. Her book "The Gate to Women's Country" is both one of the most disturbing and uplifting fantasy books I've ever read.

Another sci-fi writer with strong female characters is Ann Aguirre.

Werewolf/vampire/undead, etc modern fantasy books are my guilty pleasure. I could go on and on about some of the authors I enjoy in that genre. :)

[Irulan]

I love Sci-Fi and Fantasy both. Both genres definitely have their fair share of crap, though.

I don't find George R.R. Martin's treatment of women disturbing, personally. There are several strong female characters, and I think the tone fits the medieval setting. Let's face it, women weren't worth anything in the eyes of men back in those days. To have a medieval setting and have some sort of egalitarian social structure would seem fairly odd to me.

If you're looking for a fantastic author who is also a devoted feminist, look no further than Sherri S. Tepper. Her book "The Gate to Women's Country" is both one of the most disturbing and uplifting fantasy books I've ever read.

Another sci-fi writer with strong female characters is Ann Aguirre.

Werewolf/vampire/undead, etc modern fantasy books are my guilty pleasure. I could go on and on about some of the authors I enjoy in that genre. :)

Hah, I recall The Gate to Women's Country exactly the same way as you do: It blew my mind. Too bad the author's other works were to me very disappointing.

The "medieval" society presented in Jaqueline Carey's various Kushiel/Namaah trilogies is very egalitarian.

[skhill]

Ursula LeGuin might just be my favorite author ever. Loved her books when I was in grade school, and still do.

Has anyone else read any Octavia Butler? Definitely strong female characters there...

Thanks for this thread, btw. A friend had been encouraging me to read Martin's series, and if I do I know a little more of what to expect.

[Melalvai]

Here's a couple things that are relevant to this topic.

"Ellen Ripley Is Clearly the Best Female Character in Scifi Film, and That's a Problem (http://www.filmcritic.com/features/2011/09/ellen-ripley-is-clearly-the-best-female-character-in-scifi-and-thats-a-problem/)"

"Women fighters in reasonable armor (http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/)"

[OakLeaf]

Oh yes, I can't imagine why I forgot about Octavia Butler. She was wonderful.

The book I'm reading right now and really, really loving is Luminarium by Alex Shakar, which is sort of science-fiction-ish. Sort of - present day, medical technology that's not very much of a stretch. The central characters are all male, so it really doesn't belong in this thread, but I don't see anything wrong with the way he presents the female characters and the relationships between the sexes, and as long as we're on the genre ... :p

[tangentgirl]

I had to scroll past some of this quickly, because I haven't read DwD yet, but, on George RR Martin and the Ice & Fire books...

I like his female characters. A lot. SPOILERS HERE

Arya is my HERO. If I ever had a daughter, that name would be a strong contender, along with Lyra (Golden Compass). And maybe Keala (Kennely, the badass surfer chick in the real world). But I digress. Talk about a mean little survivor.

Danerys? Getting rid of her abusive brother? Becoming this legendary queen? Awesome.

Cersei - so ridiculous and evil and a terrible leader, but Martin really explains how she is who she is in part because she was marginalized.

Brienne - Brave, both in battle and out. She is who she is despite every single thing being against her.

I haven't read the rape/rough sex scene described at the beginning of this thread, so it's hard to comment on it. However, horrible things happen to lots of characters throughout these books. It's not like Martin is focusing on objectifying women in particular. If he had been, Sansa would be pregnant with Tyrrian's second kid by now, cause Tyrrian wouldn't have had any qualms about *ing his hot 13-year-old bride.

***
Other FSF female awesomeness...

+1 on Octavia Butler. And Terry Pratchett and Phillp Pullman.

Margaret Atwood. Her futures scare the bejezzus outta me.

Vernor Vinge's Rainbow's End has a wonderful main female character. Then again, I'm biased, I love that book to pieces. His future is actually gonna happen.

Connie Willis! Hooray for Connie Willis and her time-traveling heroes, female and male. I wish her futures would happen. I'd like to be a historian.

Anyone read the Soulless series by Gail Carriger? Steampunk vampire werewolf hilarity, with a wonderful woman at the lead.

I'm surprised we haven't gotten a mention of Marion Zimmer Bradley here and The Mists of Avalon, her re-imagined Camelot from the women's point of view. I found those characters frustrating, but the idea of turning The Once and Future King (which I also love) on its ear is pretty cool.

Finally, this is television, but Battlestar Galactica and Kara Thrace. The new Starbuck kicked so much @$$ that the old Starbuck got jealous and threw an internet hissy fit. Hooray for new Starbuck!

Ok, time for me to go play World of Warcraft. Peace out.

[Irulan]

After reading that blog entry on the female scorecard of GOT, I'll never be able to look at it the way you do. :p

MZB should get a passing mention. Mists of Avalon was a terrific, ground breaking book. Too bad all the follow ups (before and after) plus her other semi-historical/fantasy fiction (Fall of Atlantis etc ) was total crap. The Darkover series, her contribution to the sci-fi world was really hit and miss in the quality of the fiction; mostly hit but again, I'm surprised an editor let some of that stuff through.

Diana Paxson anyone? Again, a little hit or miss.

Now getting off the female track, anyone into world building/alternate history? I think Kim Stanley Robinson is a genius.

For sheer entertainment SM Stirling's Nantucket/Change books are a lot of fun. Some of them are like a train wreck ( so bad you should stay away) but the entertainment values, assuming you set your plausibility meter to "zero" and just go along for the ride, are unparalleled. And he does better women characters than a lot of authors in the field. At times they are all so silly it doesn't matter.:rolleyes: The Change series has been really entertaining as it's set in my little corner of the world, and I have physically been to many of the locations referenced in the books.

[tangentgirl]

+100 on KSR.

Irulan, I've always wanted to ask, is your username from the Dune books?

[zoom-zoom]

Has no one mentioned the ladies of Firefly/Serenity or Dana Scully (I still miss The X-Files after all these years and Firefly never got a fighting chance, thanks to FOX's antics). I'm not a huge sci-fi junkie, but I always loved these characters/actresses and the series' they were on.

[ivorygorgon]

I started reading the George RR Martin series, oh jeez, well over 10 years ago. I gave up after the second book, I think. I don't quite remember why, I just remember the third book coming out and I wasn't interested in picking it up. After reading the blog listed above (which I found really interesting and funny) I can see why I wasn't interested in reading further. I did recently download the sample of the first book onto my Kindle, because I have been seeing so much talk of this series lately, and I wondered why. So I am going to read the sample and see if it sparks my memory.

Someone above mentioned that Robert Jordan portrayed women well in The Wheel of Time Series, but I have to disagree. I think he tried to portray the women as strong, but I don't think he has pulled it off. He has receive a TON of criticism about his portrayal of women and the Aes Sedai in particular. I should mention that nonetheless I have been reading The Wheel of Time since 1991 and will see it through to the end :) - I think there is only one more book to go. I remember being worried in the late 90's that RJ wouldn't live to see the series through, and I was right. But Brandon Sanderson is doing a heck of job with the remainder of the series.

Anyone remember The Crystal Singer by Anne McCaffrey? I loved that book. Also, back in the day I read everything Piers Anthony. I recently re-read a few of the Xanth books, just for a giggle.

Overall, I tend to like epic fiction. I love huge tomes and well developed worlds that I can get into.

[skhill]

Now getting off the female track, anyone into world building/alternate history? I think Kim Stanley Robinson is a genius.

For sheer entertainment SM Stirling's Nantucket/Change books are a lot of fun. Some of them are like a train wreck ( so bad you should stay away) but the entertainment values, assuming you set your plausibility meter to "zero" and just go along for the ride, are unparalleled.

I've been on a Kim Stanley Robinson kick lately-- just read the Mars books straight through. But his fascination with breast feeding in the climate-change series was creepy...

SM Stirling is great airport reading. His books remind me of the great beer commercial: tastes great, less filling!

[Eden]

Cool thread - I haven't read or seen the series that got this started, but I have read some stuff that has good strong women as lead characters...

Kristen Britian's Green Rider series is full of strong women (not to mention they are good old fashioned page turners). It is set in a medieval type society, but gender roles are definitely not medieval.

I love Sherri Tepper - who couldn't be called anything but a feminist... most of her books center around either a strong female lead character or upside down gender roles.

Elizabeth Moons trilogy about Paksenarrion was quite good and she certainly qualifies as a strong woman.

and just for fun.... Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard series, while not particularly being about women or featuring them (but certainly the ones who appear are neither weak nor taken advantage of...), just because it is one of the most captivating pieces of fiction that I have read in a long, long time. He's got a real way with words and images.

I have to admit I do love Tolkein - though really just the Lord of the Rings... most of his other work I find rather like reading a history book - dry and dull.... Maybe it's just because I really started there - I think I was only in 5th grade the first time I read them, but every once in a while I still feel like pulling them out again.

I'll even admit to liking Anne McCaffrey - though I think her books generally read like SF romance novels.... guilty pleasure I guess... but her characters are always so likable, even the prickly ones.

[Irulan]

+100 on KSR.

Irulan, I've always wanted to ask, is your username from the Dune books?

all these years and are you the first one to figure that out?:D

[tangentgirl]

all these years and are you the first one to figure that out?:D

Yay!

[tangentgirl]

Ok, I had more to say than yay...

This is a great topic, Irulan. Even though I don't particularly agree with the blog post that kicked it off, the portrayal of women in SF and fantasy books (and movies and tv) is near and dear to my heart.

This is especially true of science fiction. I would like to think that women have it better in the future, and that human beings - or at least human society - will continue to evolve past the ol' rape'n'pillage mentality. When I read sci-fi, I get much more offended when the women are objectified, than when I read something that's set in the past or in a past-like world. It's a little strange, since I gravitate towards the dystopian, which shouldn't be ideal, but whatever.

Take Robert Heinlein. Great writer, but, dangit, sometimes I'd like to resurrect him from the grave just to kick him in the nards. He's got all this stuff where he's living out his old man playboy fantasies in his books, and it gets pretty transparent. I can't help but like his books, but I do tend to read them saying, "Really, Robert? Really?"

And I recently read the first book of Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. On the flip side, that made me sad because there were basically no women in it at all. All these super smart people, and the women are invisible.

[Irulan]

Thanks gals for some ideas for new authors to search out.

Anyone else on Goodreads? I find it's a great way to keep track of what I'm reading, get recs from friedns with similar tastes, and discover totally new stuff.

As for "guilty pleasure" lol that probably needs its own thread.

@tangentgirl re Heinlien... so true. One has to remember that the authors of his area were really groundbreaking, even if it seems so dated now.

[channlluv]

I'd like to recommend Tamora Pierce's books, especially the Alanna the Lioness quartet and the Protector of the Small quartet. Both are about lady knights in the medieval world of Tortall. Another good series if you like medieval-set police procedurals is the Beka Cooper series - Terrier, Bloodhound, and the newest is Mastiff, which comes out in a couple of weeks.

Talk about girl power, these books have it.

Roxy

[tangentgirl]

Anyone else on Goodreads? I find it's a great way to keep track of what I'm reading, get recs from friedns with similar tastes, and discover totally new stuff.

I am now. Really neat site. I wish I had thought of that idea.

[Kiwi Stoker]

I had dinner with Robert Jordan and his wife once when he was on a book tour in NZ and I was working as a buyer in a bookstore.

He admitted he didn't feel able to write female characters so hence no ladies in his first book of "The Wheel of Time" series. He said he was going to use his wife to help him write female characters. That might explain why he did not have many and they might not be very believible.

BTW Robert Jordan was a pen name, not his real name.

I love Elizabeth Moon books, both her fantasy and Sci-Fi women characters are very real, strong but with flaws. And they continue to learn. Like real people do.

[Cataboo]

So I finally read the first game of thrones book... It took me multiple tries to get past the first chapters for about a month till I actually got into the book.

I guess I could deal with the constant rape... The incestuous control of sisters by their brothers by nipple twisting and sex was just freaking weird. Does George R.R. Martin have a sister? Has anyone checked to make sure that he didn't molest her when young? I think part of the weirdness is reading the book and it just seeming like the author finds it exciting or titillating.

[Catrin]

I liked the Wheel of Time series, even with the lack of female characters, until the whole Aes Sedai story line developed - that made me far too uncomfortable and while I finally managed to read through those volumes over the years I didn't care as much for the books in the series that were post-Aes Sedai...

[OakLeaf]

For the C.J. Cherryh fans, I just happened across her blog (http://www.cherryh.com/WaveWithoutAShore/). Homey, engaging, altogether charming. Never mind it's titled after one of her early books that has always been my favorite.

[Catrin]

....Another good series if you like medieval-set police procedurals is the Beka Cooper series - Terrier, Bloodhound, and the newest is Mastiff, which comes out in a couple of weeks.

Talk about girl power, these books have it.

Roxy

Ooooh, I am reading Terrier now, and it is fantastic, thanks for the recommendation!

[Irulan]

Ugh, I am still slogging my way through A Dance with Dragons. I really don't care about new characters, but I'm sticking it out so I can find out where is leaves off. This is excruciating though. I'm thinking this guy must have fired his editor.

[Catrin]

Just discovered a new fantasy author. R. Scott Baker. While I've not yet finished "The Darkness That Comes Before", I am finding his writing to be refreshingly different. Very few female characters, at least so far, but this isn't a carbon copy of any other fantasy world/stories I've ridden in the past. The protagonist is both sorcerer and spy, and it is a promising beginning.

Also, on the advice of women in this thread, I've read several books by Tamora Pierce and found them enjoyable. I probably won't read all of them, but have read both of the Trickster books (Trickster's Choice, and Trickster's Queen) along with Terrier, Bloodhound and Mastiff. All well worth reading. I especially enjoyed the latter three.

[OakLeaf]

Reviving this thread for a hat tip to a couple of authors I've just discovered.

Ann Leckie's first novel, Ancillary Justice, is one of the best hard SF novels I can remember reading, ever. I've been kind of buzzing through brain candy, and that one was like three books ago, but my mind keeps coming back to it. Some really interesting concepts of distributed intelligence.

Also, Nnedi Okorafor, best known as a YA writer (which, I've enjoyed her YA stuff too), but her first adult fantasy, Who Fears Death, completely blew me away. It's intense, violent, could trigger some people, but for heroic female characters, just wow.

[thekarens]

Thanks for the suggestion of Ann Lecki. I'm going to see if I can find her on audible.

I've only skimmed this thread, but I didn't see any mention of Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss. Two of the best contemporary fantasy authors IMO, though not many women characters.

Tolkien is my all time favorite author. I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time when I was 8 and read the series almost once a year every year.

I admit I only read for entertainment. I get plenty of reality in my life and appreciate the break from it when I have the time to read.

[Catrin]

...
Tolkien is my all time favorite author. I read the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings for the first time when I was 8 and read the series almost once a year every year.

I admit I only read for entertainment. I get plenty of reality in my life and appreciate the break from it when I have the time to read.

This! What movies I watch are for the same reason - so I love fantasy/sci-fi/fun/satirical/historical drama films. I've not found many contemporary fantasy authors I care for, the authors I've read have been too...well...dark for me though that may simply be a sign of the times with all of the real world events over the last decade. In my younger years I loved dark fantasy/horror fiction but not these days. Lovecraft and Ambrose Bierce were two of my favorites - though I must admit to still having a soft spot for Lovecraft when I am in the mood. He was certainly original! I will check out the two authors you mentioned - all of the contemporary fantasy authors CAN'T be dark!

[OakLeaf]

I will check out the two authors you mentioned - all of the contemporary fantasy authors CAN'T be dark!

Just a warning ... don't read Who Fears Death if you don't want dark. Okorafor's YA stuff is much less wrenching.

For humorous fantasy, I really liked Max Gladstone's Three Parts Dead, and his new novel is on my list. Strong female protagonist, to keep the thread on topic.

[thekarens]

If I want silly and occasionally over the top I read Piers Anthony's Xanth series. It's polar opposite of the type of fantasy I normally read. I guess I'd consider it my guilty pleasure.

I'm currently reading Simon Green Deathstalker series. My boys convinced me. I've already read his Nightside series and enjoyed it.

[Catrin]

If I want silly and occasionally over the top I read Piers Anthony's Xanth series. It's polar opposite of the type of fantasy I normally read. I guess I'd consider it my guilty pleasure.

I'm currently reading Simon Green Deathstalker series. My boys convinced me. I've already read his Nightside series and enjoyed it.

I love Piers Anthony! I also really like his "Incarnations" series, those aren't as light but well written. The Nightshade series sounds interesting and have already checked out an e-book version from my library :) The Deathstalker series does as well, and both series appear to be quite different from each other - that is encouraging. I've recently given up on a series - Tad William's Otherland series. The premise is very interesting, but by the time I got to the last 700+ page book in the series I was just tired of it. That isn't like me, I don't mind long books and am a fast reader so I prefer them - but the writing must be up to it. When I got to the last book (>900 pages), I simply no longer cared about the characters and hung it up after the first ~300 pages.

[Irulan]

Tbut I didn't see any mention of Brandon Sanderson or Patrick Rothfuss. Two of the best contemporary fantasy authors IMO, though not many women characters.

.

I got halfway through the second in his series and had to put it down as absolutely nothing was happening. 700 pages of nothing happening.

I'm always fascinated by the range and variety of what's out there for people to enjoy, and how we are all so different in what appeals to us.

[lph]

I had the same reaction to many of Robin Hobbs' books. I love them, but I keep waiting for the plot to actually go somewhere substantial. It does, eventually, but in the meantime you'd better enjoy the characters!

[Eden]

I read a really good series recently by Lynne Flewelling - the Tamir Triad - full of very strong women and a bit of gender bending (it's crucial to the plot, so I won't give anything more away)
The Bone Doll's Twin
Hidden Warrior
The Oracle's Queen

She also did (does? not sure if there will be more) the Nightrunner series, which in addition to being just plain old good fantasy, also has well rounded and non-sterotypical LGBT characters

[OakLeaf]

One thing I really loved about Ancillary Justice is that the narrator speaks a language that has no gender, and to "translate" the narrator's thoughts into English, Leckie uses generic feminine pronouns, even with respect to characters that she identifies as biologically male. It's pretty much incidental to the plot, other than a reinforcement of how many of the characters are distinctly post-human, but it forces the reader to confront their own gender stereotypes CONSTANTLY.

[Don Deitz]

Catherine Asaro has some great sci-fi. Some really great and very strong female characters. It's an inter-stellar empire political/battle series of books. Some of her descriptions of faster-than-light travel and other technologies are short and very readable but there are a sentence or two in those sections which are very enjoyable if you took a few graduate classes in quantum mechanics. You don't need to know any science to appreciate the novels.

[OakLeaf]

Robert Jordan ... admitted he didn't feel able to write female characters so hence no ladies in his first book of "The Wheel of Time" series. He said he was going to use his wife to help him write female characters.

That just strikes me as incredibly lazy. He only knows one woman? And rather than get to know a few of the other half of the world's population, as maybe just some kind of prerequisite to being a writer, he wants the only woman he knows to do his job for him?

Contrast that with this, from a recent interview (http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/10/29/2834951/serpents-rise/) with Max Gladstone:


When I’m writing a new character, especially in a fantasy, I try really hard to reject the idea that ol’ straight white normally-abled cis Max is the Default Norm Human. It’s just not true. I hard about who my characters are and what they could be, demographically speaking, and then build those character traits into the story.

[thekarens]

I think that saying "you write what you know" may apply. I don't see anything wrong with a writer not writing about women, men, blacks, whites, whatever if you don't know them/understand them or know enough of them to truly understand them.

[Catrin]

Thanks for all of the reading suggestions, I've added some to my list. I also want to get back to writing myself - it really is for me more than anyone. I am considering joining a writers group this winter, we will see. Since I am pretty much confined at home right now, and I feel well enough to read (finally), I checked out an electronic version of one of the Nightside novels by Simon Green from my library recommended above. I do like how it is starting, perhaps I've a new series to read through :)

[Don Deitz]

I have discovered that I enjoy novels by women more than I expected. Much better characters and more deeply and richly defined. The different point of view is refreshing as well.

Catrin - I don't know what you like to write, but please work on it.

Don

[lph]

Hi Don,

Ok, I'm curious and I have to ask - why are you on a cycling forum for women? This isn't a closed forum, of course, so anyone can read and post, but you should be aware that we've had heated debates in the past about men participating. Some don't mind, but there are regulars here who are quite protective of the women-only atmosphere.

[OakLeaf]

I probably shouldn't, so for those who mind, you can stop reading now :cool: and for the rest, apologies in advance for the meta drift - but the conjunction was just too glaring, to me.


Some don't mind, but there are regulars here who are quite protective of the women-only atmosphere.

I don't see anything wrong with a writer not writing about women, men, blacks, whites, whatever if you don't know them/understand them or know enough of them to truly understand them.

16791

Hey girl,

I know you get really tired of explaining male privilege to clueless guys. But thank you for doing it. The thing about privilege (whether it's based on race, sex, gender presentation, sexual orientation or whatever) is precisely that those who have it don't have to be aware of it. The test of character is, when someone learns to be aware of their privilege, what they do with that information.




I'm not innocent of this [me Oak, not Ryan Gosling]. I live in a pretty segregated place. I didn't choose it because it's segregated - all other things being equal, I'd be a lot happier living somewhere more racially diverse and egalitarian - but I'm well aware that I'm able to live there without major hassles, because I'm white. And that race was something I didn't have to think about when I chose this neighborhood. It's not something I'm proud of.

If a man wants to write women out of his own life, well, his male privilege allows him to live a pretty full life while doing that, and given the above, it's hard for me to object to someone's personal choices that way. But a writer … to me, their work is supposed to reflect the world - not necessarily the entire world, but a reasonable cross-section of it. For a writer to write women entirely out of his works, especially when he has to create a whole fictional world in which there are no women (rather than choosing a historical setting where segregation by sex was the norm) - and to be explicit about doing so because he doesn't feel that women are an important part of the world, or that getting to know people different from himself is a very big part of a writer's craft - to me, that's just not OK.

[thekarens]

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you disagree with a writer and how he writes you can vote with your money and not read it. I'm fine with a writer not including women in a world he made up.

[TrekDianna]

Connie Willis! Hooray for Connie Willis and her time-traveling heroes, female and male. I wish her futures would happen. I'd like to be a historian.



The Doomsday Book - one of my all time favorites

[Don Deitz]

Hi -- I try not to make a pest of myself here since I understand it is on Team Estrogen. I can understand why some women want this to be restricted to women only so I rarely ever post anything. So why am I even a member of the forum?
1. I do cycle. (Until I crashed and cracked the frame. Will be looking for a new bike in the spring.)
2. I asked Renata over 2 years ago if I was OK to participate in the forums.
3. Other than these few posts I doubt I have posted more than a few times in the past 2 years.
3. Because of a medical issue I do wear sports bras when I cycle and run. I was shopping for a new bra and asked if she could recommend a few. I chose the Shock Absorber Run Sports bra.

[OakLeaf]

OK ... let me break it down a little better ...

In our culture, places where women can come and hang out and feel like the default plane of existence is that we are going to be safe, heard, and respected, aren't the norm or the majority of places. That's what "male privilege" means - women can't just walk into a strange place, be it an online forum or a neighborhood bar, and expect that we're going to be taken seriously, or even that we're going to be safe. That's why many women find it really important to preserve an online space where we CAN expect that respect and safety.

This is a cultural phenomenon that goes way beyond major negative experiences of particular women, and is represented much more often in microaggressions. But as lph pointed out, in my memory we have had one male stalker on this forum targeting a particular female forum member, and several "creeps," although the admins have been stellar (as they are with most things) in nipping that stuff in the bud. That is all much LESS than most women have to deal with in our daily lives, and that's an illustration of why this space is important to us.

We also have a small number of men who participate respectfully. By "respectfully," I mean they add their experience or ask their questions about cycling when it's appropriate and gender-neutral - such as traffic skills or bike handling tips, for instance - but they don't belittle women's contributions, deny or ignore our experiences (neither of which you have done here, I'm not saying you have) ... or insert themselves into social conversations that have nothing to do with anything except women's experience of the world.

Some of us - me included - would be a lot more comfortable with your occasionally contributing to a thread like this *if* you'd participated more in threads related to this forum's raison d'être, cycling and other sports. It raises a question in lph's mind, and mine, as to why you would choose to hang out and talk about science fiction and fantasy here, with women who are strangers to you, in a women-oriented space. You wouldn't just walk into a physical bike shop and engage the first stranger you saw in a conversation about books, would you? Even more so if it were a bike shop that catered primarily to women, sold only women's clothing and primarily WSD and smaller-framed bikes, right? That's what Team Estrogen is. A bike-accessories shop that sells women's gear, with a great big lounge in the back where the customers hang out and chat. We get to know each other by talking about bikes or other sports, which is what brought us here in the first place, and as friendships develop, we step aside and shoot the sh*t about whatever, too.

So. I speak only for myself. I'm just a customer and a participant, not an admin. From conversations we've had here in the past, I'd say I'm pretty much in the middle of active forum participants, as to whether men's presence is welcome here. As you already know, the admins say men can join, and I personally am comfortable with that, though as lph said, there are also some who aren't. I hope I've explained the reasons why some women here are uncomfortable with the presence of men at all, and why some would be uncomfortable with your personal participation in this particular thread ... though the bottom line is, part of being a safe space is that forum members will challenge you if you violate our boundaries, whether you understand the reasons or not. It's basic good manners to learn and respect those boundaries.

[Irulan]

Who is Renata and why does she get to speak for me?
I much prefer the Ski Diva model, where the forum is actually CLOSED to male participants. Guys have the whole fricken internet as their playground. Why can't we have one little corner all to ourselves?

[Eden]

…… being the internet and basically being anonymous any of us could pretend to be something we are not… Don could have simply registered as Dawn and no one would have any idea he wasn't a she. At least he was honest about it.

[nuliajuk]

Does anyone here read Jasper FForde? The Thursday Next series are fantasy of sorts, as the main character travels between the book world and the real world. And although she's written in the tough girl mode in places, in other places she has to worry about things like arranging child care while saving the world.
I've re-read the series several times, as there always seems to be something I notice that didn't come to my attention the previous readings. And of course, there's a lot of wit and humour woven in.

[lph]

Hi -- I try not to make a pest of myself here since I understand it is on Team Estrogen. I can understand why some women want this to be restricted to women only so I rarely ever post anything. So why am I even a member of the forum?
1. I do cycle. (Until I crashed and cracked the frame. Will be looking for a new bike in the spring.)
2. I asked Renata over 2 years ago if I was OK to participate in the forums.
3. Other than these few posts I doubt I have posted more than a few times in the past 2 years.
3. Because of a medical issue I do wear sports bras when I cycle and run. I was shopping for a new bra and asked if she could recommend a few. I chose the Shock Absorber Run Sports bra.

Don, you may be a terrific guy, and I bear you no ill-will. But your post does not answer my question. Cycling and needing a bra are not reasons for a guy to join a womens forum. Thank you, Oak, for a thoughtful and well-written post on the subject. To add to it - there are some legitimate reasons for a guy to join a womens forum, and there are some pretty creepy reasons. Unfortunately, we've seen both.

Struggling back on topic, and I'll try to stay there: I've done sooo little reading recently because of our kitchen remodeling. But I've been reading this thread and noting down tips. I'm looking forward to a hot date with an online bookstore in a week or two, armed with recommendations ;-)

[OakLeaf]

I read a couple of Fforde's early novels and thought they were hilarious, but I'm really not conversant with Victorian novels, and I think one needs to be, to appreciate his work. [Weird for an English major. I was happiest with pre-Norman homilists and poets. So sue me. :cool:]

To stay on topic, obviously his protagonist is a woman, and from what I remember from my limited POV and after a very long time, it did seem to me that perhaps he gives agency to minor characters, many of them female, who may have lacked any in the original novels.

[Thorn]

Interesting thread....odd I missed it originally although I tend more to SciFi than fantasy. But, thanks to all, I've gotten some suggestions here.

That said, along the lines of the thread, Nicola Griffith's cross into historical fiction, Hild has been released. It is getting great reviews and has had me up too late at night reading.

Griffith's primary characters are always strong women and, apparently, Hild fits the bill.

[lph]

... nothing to do with women really, but I'm sort of on a fantasy and sci-fi roll lately. Managed to finally watch all of season 1 and 2 of Game of Thrones - they're a bit too violent for me so I have to portion them out - I just saw the movie Ender's Game which reminded me of how much I loved the book, and since the second Hunger Games movie is right around the corner I'm re-reading the first book, squeezing in a little every time I have a spare moment. And I have to see Gravity too. It may be escapism, but I really love this genre.

Oh, and I'm looking forward to the day when we don't have to use the phrase "strong women" to mean normal female protagonists. (No offense to you, Thorn).

[Thorn]

Oh, and I'm looking forward to the day when we don't have to use the phrase "strong women" to mean normal female protagonists. (No offense to you, Thorn).

No kidding! [and no offense taken]

My other half has always been into SciFi. Early back in the dating period, I read what he considered some of his "favorites". Some were great; others not so much. At one point I hadn't a set back and asked him to find me a female character that wasn't weak or a soul destroyer. As a male reader he never thought about it (he does now, tho :); as a woman reader, it irks me.

[Catrin]

I love good fantasy, mysteries and science fiction. In that order although it is certainly possible to combine those genres. Long ago I wrote dark fantasy fiction and enjoyed it - but life got in the way and I dropped it. I am in the process of picking it back up. The odds of it going anywhere is pretty slim, but you never know. In the end my writing is for me, but hopefully others will also enjoy it. I don't like using plot "formulas", so this is going to be fun :)

[OakLeaf]

I don't know how all y'all feel about the zombie craze ... in general it's not my thing, but I really enjoyed Mira Grant's "Newsflesh" series. Unlike most zombie stories, it's not set at the beginning of the zombie outbreak, or in some post-apocalyptic wasteland, but she posits that civilization adapted quickly and reasonably well to the omnipresent threat of zombies and infection, and writes about what life might be like in a world where everyone has to be guarding against them. Really more "medical/political thriller" than typical "zombie." Fun stuff.

[lph]

I haven't read any zombie stories, but I don't get it at all. I'd probably be fine with some alien species behaving that way, but dead humans with salient parts missing that still wander around... aahh, no. But in general, the big kick I get out of science fiction is definitely the way it twists the world and makes you think "wow, things don't have to be like this, if you change x, what would we do?" I'll check them out!

[Veronica]

I like Zombie stories. The Walking Dead is one of my favorite tv shows. It's not just about how to deal with the zombies, but how do you reframe society. How do decisions get made for a large group?

To get back to books - I like Neil Gaiman a lot. Not too many female characters though.

Veronica

[Irulan]

We have a zombie donut shop here.
https://www.facebook.com/dawnofthedonutzombie

[Eden]

A bit off topic, but zombie related…. so, when the original Night of the Living Dead was being filmed my dad was a teenager working at a Dairy Queen (or something similar) near the filming location. Apparently when they were done for the day the cast decided it would be fun to go get some ice cream… without taking off their makeup. My dad was in the back when they came in, but he remembers the counter guy coming running back just stuttering and pointing :p